So... I had this idea a while ago, but never fleshed it out because of PFS Legality [RIP Seducer Witch], but Wrath of the Righteous introducing Stigmatized Witch made me curious about revisiting it. Basically, in the WotR game, the Stigmatized Witch is a Charisma Caster that replaces their Patron (and Spells) with an Oracle Curse instead. [This would be fun to Homebrew. Next time I talk to someone about a Non-Society game, I'll ask them about it instead of potentially creeping them out with the Seducer, lol].
Anyway, I'm rambling. The biggest draw for this build is that both classes are Charisma Casters and only require 3 levels to reach Spell Level 2. These are the Feyspeaker Druid and Seducer Witch [not using Stigmatized because that isn't official material sadly...].
Three levels of Seducer Witch does the following for us:
* Patron: We only get one Spell from the Patron (At level 2), and fitting to the theme the Plant Patron gets Entangled as a 1st level spell. If you'd prefer picking something else, Seducer is limited to Deception (ventriloquism), Enchantment (Unnatural Lust), Thorns (Thorn Javalin), or Trickery (Animate Rope). Thorn is tempting, but we're trying to make ourselves Less MAD - not more.
* Otherworldly Allure: Replace INT with CHA as your main Spellcasting modifier. Ignore the rest of the Archetype. This is literally the only reason I've tried to convince DMs to allow me to play this Archetype - and why some of the cringe DMs are upset when I don't play into the rest of the Archetype.
* Witch's Familiar: Oh cool, a pet! That acts as your spellbook... Don't let it die.. (not part of the Archetype, but thought it was important).
* Fey Charm: Gives Charm Hex and increases its save DC by +1. Ignore the rest of it. Nope, just ignore it. I SAID IGNORE IT!
Anyway, here is what the Feyspeaker Druid gets:
* Fey Magic: Replaces WIS with CHA as main Spellcasting Score. Unfortunately, you won't see the enchantment or illusion spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list for a while. You also lose Spontaneous Casting for Summon Nature's Ally and Wild Shape delays until Level 6 (aka Never).
* Fey Speech: Oh cool! You get Sylvan for free! Now you just need Aklo and you're triple trouble (Druid, Sylvan, Aklo for all your faerie needs). Also gives Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Sense Motive as class skills. ALSO gets 6 + her Intelligence modifier, instead of 4 + her Intelligence modifier Skill Points. However, your BAB is reduced to Sorcerer Level (more reason you don't want the Thorn Patron).
* Wild Mischief: Wild Empathy but with Deception instead of Diplomacy. Weirdly enough, it replaces Medium Armor prof. and not Wild Empathy, so you have both technically.
What do you guys think? Think this would be a good baseline for the Mystic Theurge class in a non-Society game? (Other than the fact that the oversexualized Seducer Witch Archetype is usually an instant ban by respectable DMs and an insane magnate for Creep DMs.)
What options do you guys think would be valid options for the class choice-wise? Obviously Druid's Domain > Companion due to levels, but what Domain would you pick and why? Any specific races that pop out? [I was thinking Leshy for lore fluff]. What spells from the Witch/Druid list would synergize well together? I'm curious what you guys think about a weird take on the base for Mystic Theurge.
If you'd like, we could also talk about Wrath of the Righteous's exclusive archetype too (Stigmatized Witch), but not sure if the WotR Game is a topic for PF1.
Hm... looking at your guide, Plant Subdomain: Leshy might be a good choice because it re-enables Summon Natural Ally Spontaneous Spellcasting. Sadly, if you do make a Mystic Theurge guide, this would have to be in the "Not PFS Legal" section, cuz Seducer Witch is banned [for obvious anti-lewd reasons]. lol
I've toyed with many Mystic Theurge combinations in my time. I even have a partially written up guide to selecting your 'core' entry classes into the prestige class somewhere on my computer.
To be on topic, using the Stigmatized Witch from WOTR is a pretty solid option and would pair well with the Feyspeaker Druid. My optimal choices for a MT build is actually Shaman/Sorcerer because of the Hex access and Wandering Spirit. Using abilities that do not rely on class level to be effective (or still have an effect even if save is made) are the key to making those builds work (Protective Luck, Cackle, Evil Eye, etc, etc)
Sorcerer's are definitely one of the better filler Arcana classes because they can alternate themselves between INT/WIS/CHA, though Wizards feel like the better INT class to choose from. Shaman's are also pretty cool in terms of their Hexes - which also apply for taking the Witch. A supportive Shaman/Witch would be interesting if they took Supportive Hexes to buff and heal their allies.
Deathless, does your list include archetypes and options that alter their spellcasting type and/or spellcasting attribute? I'd love to see it.
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Someone had a prettier version, but this is my list of 1st party PF1 spellcasting types.
If you're going to make a guide I'd note the {wizard or arcanist} 7/divine spellcaster 1 option using faith magic to get a 2nd level divine spell.
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Woot, thanks for the list. I love that it includes Psychic spells too. I'll definitely be peeping at this more too, looks awesome.
Also...
...note the {wizard or arcanist} 7/divine spellcaster 1 option using faith magic to get a 2nd level divine spell.
Wow, that is a nice catch. Definitely pushing Wizards and Arcanists to Low Purple-High Blue instead of Blue in my mind (if I did make a guide).
Looks like a lot of people are interested in making a guide, I hope I get to read them if they ever finish them. xD
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I don't really see the purpose of cheating into Mystic Theurge using Faith Magic and one level of whatever divine class... if you really just want your Wizard/Arcanist stuff that badly, just be a Wizard/Arcanist and skip Mystic Theurge completely.
The entire point of Mystic Theurge is to find fun stuff that meshes relatively well in concert. If you aren't trying to actually combine two classes, and are just in it for extra spell slots or whatever, I think that's pretty lame.
I get that the whole combining spell slots thing is the main draw of Mystic Theurge... I doubt people take 10 levels of a prestige class just for Spell Synthesis 1/day... but a single class Wizard/Arcanist is going to be better if they never bother with divine BS. If an Arcanist wants to take a single level dip in any class, it should probably be Sorcerer to pick up Arcana and Bloodline Development later on... this is still a more powerful option than 90% of the Mystic Theurge builds out there.
Mystic Theurge does make a wonderful necromancer, though... JuJu Oracle and Gravewalker Witch... sprinkle in 5 levels of Agent of the Grave... you end up with something stupid, like, ~240HD worth of undead just from Animate Dead, alone. Lol. Ryze Kuja broke it down, step-by-step... it is THE quintessential Necromancer build, in my opinion, at least.
The thing is, Mystic Theurge will only ever give you up to 5th-level spell slots to combine... and that's after, what, nine levels in the prestige class? Come on guys, who gives a $#!+ about how many 5th-level and lower spells you can cast? Literally, who cares? You could gestalt 13 levels of two 4/9 casters, then finish with 7 levels of Mystic Theurge and combine all your spell slots from both classes... neat, but ultimately irrelevant.
When combining literally anything other than 4/9 casters, you never get to swap spell slots of the levels that matter most. It is never, ever going to be THAT impressive... other than doubling a necromancer's number of "buckets".
Even as a BBEG (like Nyrissa in Kingmaker), a Mystic Theurge gets one shot with their Spell Synthesis... did you manage a TPK? No? Then it mattered literally zero. Mystic Theurge means nothing to Nyrissa unless you find a combination of spells that ends the engagement immediately. All those combined spell slots are useless when you are dead 5 rounds later.
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Deathless, does your list include archetypes and options that alter their spellcasting type and/or spellcasting attribute? I'd love to see it.
Yes, and no. Yes, as in I've rigorously gone through archetypes and bloodline choices for classes, and ranked what I think are the best options and things to avoid. No, as in I've only managed to get through Arcanist, Wizard and Sorcerer classes and still have a long way to go with the other arcane caster and all of the divine casters. I have VIEWED them and made my own conclusions but writing them down and being articulate about them hasnt happened yet.
The way I look at it, getting the same casting stat is only of middling usefulness outside of the intention of using both classes for their spell DCs or squeezing out every last bonus spell you could possibly get. There are just to many flavorful and useful options with Sorcerer bloodlines (for example) that make up for the lower casting stat. Just choose one attribute for your character that will fuel your offensive spells (whether control, blasting, whatever) and use the secondary stat to ensure you get the proper access to spells you need. You don't need 18's or higher in each at level 1.
I get that the whole combining spell slots thing is the main draw of Mystic Theurge... I doubt people take 10 levels of a prestige class just for Spell Synthesis 1/day
Players who want to focus on spell synthesis got the Lesser Spell Synthesis and Extra Spell Synthesis feats as options, not that long ago in Chronicle of Legends. The former requires only prestige class level 1, the latter requires finishing the class though.
In general the prestige class got a lot of supporting options over the course of years (magical knack, Theurgy feat, bifurcated magic, multidisciplined etc.). It's still bulky, with an odd power curve, but the game already has enough other, more smooth options with power on a silver platter.
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I get that the whole combining spell slots thing is the main draw of Mystic Theurge... I doubt people take 10 levels of a prestige class just for Spell Synthesis 1/dayPlayers who want to focus on spell synthesis got the Lesser Spell Synthesis and Extra Spell Synthesis feats as options, not that long ago in Chronicle of Legends. The former requires only prestige class level 1, the latter requires finishing the class though.
In general the prestige class got a lot of supporting options over the course of years (magical knack, Theurgy feat, bifurcated magic, multidisciplined etc.). It's still bulky, with an odd power curve, but the game already has enough other, more smooth options with power on a silver platter.
Oh, don't get me wrong... as far as prestige classes go, Mystic Theurge isn't bad. I just don't think it is necessarily a powergamer option. I think it does what it does well enough, and the support for it makes it quite playable in a number of completely different builds.
Just none of those playable builds that I have seen are what I would consider overly "powerful"...
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{. . .} Basically, in the WotR game, the Stigmatized Witch is a Charisma Caster that replaces their Patron (and Spells) with an Oracle Curse instead. [This would be fun to Homebrew. Next time I talk to someone about a Non-Society game, I'll ask them about it instead of potentially creeping them out with the Seducer, lol].
{. . .}
Now this I'd totally like to see (the Stigmatized Witch, not the creeping out part), although probably should be in another thread. Although unless I see storyline to the contrary, "Stigmatized" would seem to align with Tortured Martyr Paladin(*), which is Wisdom-based (instead of Charisma-based). This would actually be good for Mystic Theurge purposes, since so many divine casters are Wisdom-based.
(*)Which, by the way, also increases skill ranks per level -- any non-Int Int caster archetype should also do this, although none of them do (which means that a Seducer Witch is actually going to be de facto MAD due to needing to have enough Intelligence to have enough skill ranks to be able to afford ranks in the Face skills -- so much for having a Witch who can't spell).
@DeathlessOne: Hm... never thought about it that way, I haven't had much experience with Spellcaster classes - much less Mystic Theurge builds - but definitely agree that useful class features that don't scale with level would more than makeup for a couple points less than max on the main spellcasting attribute. Just something about Seducer Witch and Feyspeaker Druid caught my attention with how fey-like it is.
@VoodistMonk: Not really any 'point' just a fun piece of trivia. Basically, you lose a couple of levels of Spellcasting for a larger pool of Divine Spells than just the couple you'd get from Faith Magic. Definitely not game-breaking, but a neet idea.
Also, I would never consider myself a Powergamer or Min-Maxer. Yes - I do make some ridiculous mixes and combinations between character options, but that's usually because I'm mixing for flavor. lol
But yeah, I saw the Necromancer Build once and was like "This is the Necromancer I want to play"* (before the Juju changes).
@UnArcaneElection: I know, right?! I would have loved to see the Stigmatized Witch as an option for PFS. Unfortunately, they're Owlcat exclusives and Paizo has pretty much abandoned PF1 altogether. Not quite sure why Owlcat made Stigmatized Witch a Charisma caster tbh; but I was just going off based on the games.
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I am curious though, how well do the Witch and the Druid spell list mesh together? I feel like ultimately, the final level spread would be 3/7/10 to get 9th level Druid Spells, or 7/3/10 for 9th level Witch spells.
I still like the idea of being a WitchDruid, sounds fun. lol
The Druid and Witch spell lists have some overlap, but they also have non-overlapping spells, and what Witch fills in relative to Druid depends upon choice of Patron. For instance, Healing is notable for having 7 of 9 spells from the Cleric/Oracle list that are not on the Druid list (the exceptions being Remove Disease and and Cure Light Wounds Mass Edition)(*). This is easiest to see if you go to the www.d20pfsrd.com Witch Patrons page (the one on Archives of Nethys doesn't have live links to the spells) so that you can click on spells you like to see if they are already on the Druid list. However, resist the temptation to pick something that will need high spell DCs, since the multiclassing required for Mystic Theurge will drop your spell DCs, as well as drop your caster level enough that you can't completely overcome this with the Magical Knack trait (which can't fix the former problem at all).
(*)The Healing Patron lets a Witch become an almost complete Cleric replacement (missing Channel Energy, Domain, and combat ability, and you can even get Channel Energy through an archetype -- just go for a rider effect and overinvest in it).
In terms of character concept, the third of the Mendevian Crusades involved an awful lot of witch hunts that also targeted plenty of innocent people including Druids. The worst of the Third Crusaders were perfectly willing to kill the innocent (including indigenous Kellid/Sarkorian people), and while Mendev partially contained their worst excesses thereafter, plenty of people with the same attitude as the worst of the Third Crusaders are still around, including some in positions as high as Inquisitor Hulrun Shappok (second in Mendev only to Queen Galfrey), who may have personally acted as a pivotal reason behind Iomedae evolving from commissioning a whole archetype of Paladins more devoted to Law than in Good(*) to no longer accepting non-Good followers. So it wouldn't be a surprise for somebody who started out as a Sarkorian/Kellid Druid to get caught by the worst of the Third Crusaders and be not only stigmatized, but also tortured, potentially even including the infliction of actual stigmata. Then they could get rescued by a mysterious (and possibly not even visible) patron who then teaches them Witchcraft while leaving them the option to continue their Druidic devotion at the same time.
(*)And herself being willing to punish followers with a blast of to scratchy violins, screeching piccolos, and nauseating trumpets.