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I'm starting it soon, with a GM who is also running it for another grouup.
Early thoughts are: the other group is having a blast, didn't struggle hugely with jumping in at higher level.
My group is having great fun starting with new characters that are already incredible heroes. And also starting with characters who normally take a while to "get going" mechanically.
I also gathered some tips on these forums a while back, that we've been using to hopefully be okay despite not being an organically grown 11th level party:
GENERAL:
[] Diversify who specialises in what skills [At level 11 +17
is decent, and much higher is possible]
At least one person who is +17 in Athletics [STR], Arcana/Occultism, Society [INT], Deception, Diplomacy [CHA], Medicine, Nature/Religion [WIS], Thievery [DEX]
{2 at 17 or one at 20+ is ideal}
[] Difficult hazards will require master Perception to notice
[] Be able to target different saves with spells
[] Have spells that are reasonably useful on powerful creatures who save
!Tips! Use |Demoralise|, |Recall Knowledge|, |Trip/Grab|, and ~Aid~
DAMAGE TYPES:
[] [] [] slashing, bludgeoning, piercing
[] [] [] cold iron, silver, ghost touch
~
[] [] fire, cold
[] [] positive, good
SOLUTIONS FOR:
[] hidden enemies (usually invisible),
[] distant inaccessible enemies (usually flying)
[] reduce conditions that last longer than combat (usually a wand of restoration (4th) [divine, occult, primal] 700 gp split by the party)
[] the ability to use scrolls/prepare spells to help with extreme terrain/longlasting conditions
Generally have a plan B for when an encounter makes your preferred thing difficult.
Aside from the fact that it's a bit daunting to create an 11th level character, my players mostly just thought it was fun. None of them had played characters this high level before and just seeing the wild stuff they can do I think brought a lot of enjoyment to everyone.
So far, being at 11th level doesn't seem *different* from being at 1st level. Just more actual things to do and everyone is, of course, much better at everything.
I had the characters communicate a lot about what types of characters they would be building so that we would have a balanced-enough party.
One thing that I thought this particular campaign allowed was for people to try some wacky things. For instance, I have a player who is a cleric of Fumeiyoshi who casts Harm instead of Heal. He was worried about not being a healing cleric but I thought this would be the perfect situation to try it out.
As vagrant-poet mentioned, this also gave a bit more incentive to playing, say, a monk who players might not want to play as for 1st level. 11th level monk is much different (crane stance is nuts).
Assuming we finish Fists of the Ruby Phoenix in a timely manner it will be interesting to see what we want to play next. Go back to 1st level characters and start a new campaign? I feel like I'd be inclined to play another 3 book, 11th to 20th level campaign if it's out by the time we finish.
I have only partially finished my own 'characters.' As GM I am building a team of four level 12s. That means I get to experiment with the four different paths of dragon disciples that I couldn't do playing at level one.
Magic items & wealth was probably the most difficult for the most of my players. That may be because the wondrous items are not as deep as PF1, not because of level. One of the more experienced players suggested everyone top out their armor & weapon, then money seemed to be less of an issue. Many even bought their own healing wand in the spirit of cooperation.
One the plus side we had one player build a samurai, one build a ninja, & one build an airbender. This was possible because of starting at higher level. The right combo of feats & dedications were there at the beginning of the character's journey. Had we started at level one we would have had a fighter, swashbuckler, & a monk.
Hmmm... Having swashbuckler dedication seemed to make more ideas possible. As we get more classes & dedications this will only get easier (our 'magus' has been rebuilt as a magus).
Personally I find high level builds less daunting than Magic for Everyone. Trying to build for one of two archetypes was difficult. I felt obligated to NOT take the free archetypes for granted and pressure to blend the free skills/spells/abilities with my build concept.
I liked it a lot, there are some builds that don't really "come online" for a while and it's fun to be able to start this character after their schtick goes live. I am playing a Fencer Swashbuckler with the Monk Dedication for the Flurry and the Stumbling Style feats, since Flurry from the dedication isn't available until 10th and Stumbling Feint from the dedication isn't available until 12th this is not a character I would get to play in a 1-20 campaign, but it's a fun character.
The one thing I didn't like is that picking out gear for an 11th level character is a lot more work and a lot less fun than picking out the feats.
I kind of wish they'd used Automatic Bonus Progression and given less gold, but I actually never expect them to do this, because too much of their audience/staff likes items.
But it would take the clunk out of high level item buying. Which is definitely the clunkiest part.
Everyone in my group thought that the numbers would be completely out of control, but after the first two encounters they saw that the challenge/power level remains rather steady at higher levels.
The players decided to have 3 primal spell casters after two weeks of preparation for session 1. Everyone has items to boost their weapons, and skills. The trouble is that they haven't found out how to work well with one another, or developed a pace for fighting enemies of this level. Some spells are overlapping from prepared casters, and they often try to cast similar spells at the same time.
I'm giving them an opportunity after the temple to swap things out, or redo some feats/class choices so they stand a better chance of surviving the next chapter. That and secrets of magic is nearly released, and I am sure people will want to try the new stuff.
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I have a player that is really enjoying getting to jump in with his ranger/monk flurry build. And the spellcasters are having fun with their high level spells.
I think my players were a little frustrated that I went with pick-your-items rather than lump sum of gold pieces. I think a curated list of suggested items might have helped the process.
I'll agree with what everyone said about the items being the hardest part to figure out.
Having said that, once we looked at the starting items per level chart and got our heads around that it made a lot more sense. Then it wasn't really a *problem* so much as "wow we have a lot of items I don't even know what the heck I want to choose!".
And this is before the Grand Bazaar comes out. This is more of a "good problem", though. The starting items Vs. just using your gold to buy whatever is much more simple, though and I highly recommend people go that route.
As an aside, all my players fell in love with the Knapsack of Halflingkind.
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I have a player that is really enjoying getting to jump in with his ranger/monk flurry build. And the spellcasters are having fun with their high level spells.
I think my players were a little frustrated that I went with pick-your-items rather than lump sum of gold pieces. I think a curated list of suggested items might have helped the process.
The player's guide already makes suggestions for classes, alignments, lores, languages, etc.. A list of suggested items would also be useful. For example, listing the highest weapon and armor available to the AP's starting level would be a start. "A +2 striking weapon is a level 10 item and a +1 resilient armor is level 8 item." Or quote table 10-10 for the PCs starting level. I know the players guide referenced the table, but (my players at least) would have benefited from "Characters of this level get permament items of the following levels: 10th: 1, 9th: 2, 8th: 1, 7th: 2". Listing a few relevant consumables could also be useful.
It doesn't need to be this technical either. Mentioning travel items as 'you explore Danger Island (such as flying carpets or ropes of climbing)' or items to make 'the tournament more spectacular (such as cape of montebank, glowing swords) are sure to please the crowds.'
And just because I am a fan of magic items (Blazing 9!), it would be fun
to include an innocuous item well below the AP's level in the adventures box. A teams badge or magical go-pro for this AP for example. I know AP come with magic items already, but in doing a high level AP throw in a 4th or 5th level item that will help PCs define the theme.
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Yeah, much like how the level 1 characters have various "Class Kits" to spend the bulk of their starting gold for the essentials, it would be beneficial for the player's guide for another 11-20 AP to offer a few packages of gear that would make many of the choices for equipment leaving the player to just pick out a few items.
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I'm from the days of early D&D. I'm used to going through different interconnected modules. APs did not even exist back then other than maybe a 3 module series like G1 to G3.
I like full APs, but I don't mind well put together 3 module series. It can break up the monotony of a single AP on occasion.
I also enjoyed a module like Fate of Istus. Seemingly disconnected adventures that tied together only loosely.
A nice Temple of Elemental Evil type of module would be fun as well.
I'm good with almost anything as long as it has challenging and interesting monsters, story, and the like.
I don't mind starting at lvl 11. Then you can run them through something else up to lvl 11. As long as Paizo provides some options for getting them to 11, then shouldn't be a problem to switch it up. Not everything should happen in 6 modules 1 to 20.
I'm just gonna throw in my vote for more APs that start at higher levels, I love the format of this one and hopefully we'll see some more after Blood Lords.
I'm not sure if an AP that starts at like 6th level is doable. Since the APs are on a monthly release schedule, and are kind of calibrated to do 1-20 in six months.
I guess you could do three four part APs in a year, but that's a whole other experiment.
I'm not sure if an AP that starts at like 6th level is doable. Since the APs are on a monthly release schedule, and are kind of calibrated to do 1-20 in six months.
I guess you could do three four part APs in a year, but that's a whole other experiment.
Though hypothetically instead of doing "Book 1-3" + Book "4-6" or "Book 1-3" + "Book 1-3" you could do something like Book "2-4" or "Book 3-5" in terms of level gap so you have an adventure go from Level 5-14 or Level 9-17 hypothetically.
The proficiency mechanics of second edition make natural breaks. I wouldn't quite call them capstone, but they do provide goals. Starting when a fighter is expert and ending when a wizard is would feel organic.
As an argument 'APs are calibrated to 1-20' is broken by the 'starting at higher level.' And since the APs rarely connect storywise, I don't think it matters if one stops before or after the next one starts.
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This is an old thread, but it’s worth saying: I like the idea of more high-level APs. It feels like they can tackle content that would be awkward to tie in with 1-10 play - a planar campaign seems a likely fit, as does something in terribly dangerous environs (the Sarkoris Scar, the Isle of Terror) or with especially potent enemies (algollthus, the Dominion of the Black, Nidal, Hell).
They offer some real Big Damn Heroes potential, in terms of stakes and action.
With a few different 1-10s and a couple 11-20s, you can do some fun mix-and-match campaigns from level 1 to 20.
I also wanted to add that as someone who’s currently running Abomination Vaults, the party is really happy that there’s an AP that goes from levels 11-20 that we can jump into afterward. With most of my players, pitching a campaign that only goes up to level 10 is a bit disappointing for them if it means they aren’t gonna be able to take those characters all the way to level 20. That’s the main reason I hope more 11-20 APs are created since right now while I’m excited for Frozen Flame and Outlaws, they’re a tough sell for my players.
I’m all for more 3-part APs interspersed with the 6-parters though! I’d even go so far as to say they’re necessary for campaigns with a cool premise, but which would overstay their welcome going for 6 books. My players are loving Abomination Vaults, but they’d be so annoyed if they knew they were going to be exploring the same dungeon all the way from levels 1 to 20.
I also wanted to add that as someone who’s currently running Abomination Vaults, the party is really happy that there’s an AP that goes from levels 11-20 that we can jump into afterward. With most of my players, pitching a campaign that only goes up to level 10 is a bit disappointing for them if it means they aren’t gonna be able to take those characters all the way to level 20. That’s the main reason I hope more 11-20 APs are created since right now while I’m excited for Frozen Flame and Outlaws, they’re a tough sell for my players.
I’m all for more 3-part APs interspersed with the 6-parters though! I’d even go so far as to say they’re necessary for campaigns with a cool premise, but which would overstay their welcome going for 6 books. My players are loving Abomination Vaults, but they’d be so annoyed if they knew they were going to be exploring the same dungeon all the way from levels 1 to 20.
Funnily enough there's definitely a chance that I'll run Abomination vaults for my players AFTER we finish Ruby Phoenix. I think knowing it ends when you reach level 10 would be fine for them so long as that is communicated. I'm mostly about being able to finish campaigns so having them be 3 books rather than 6 books is just a lot more reasonable.
So far the high level play has been a lot of fun.
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I’m all for more 3-part APs interspersed with the 6-parters though! I’d even go so far as to say they’re necessary for campaigns with a cool premise, but which would overstay their welcome going for 6 books.
I think quite a few of the PF1 APs fell into this trap. It was quite common for at least a few of the books in an AP to feel very, very different in tone and/or setting than what came before.
For example, Book 5 of Curse of the Crimson Throne (and book 4 to a lesser extent) just felt really out of place. The last 2 books of War for the Crown were largely unnecessary (book 4 seems to end the AP until stuff happens from pretty much out of the blue).
To some extent Age of Ashes also suffered from this. Two fairly poorly connected evil forces one was fighting against with lots of moderately arbitrary setting jumps.
In fairness, its HARD to come up with an adventure that logically spans 6 books, that logically will involve characters from Level 1 to level 20, that the same character types will fit well in through the whole adventure.
I'm strongly in favour of making the Adventure Paths the logical length and levels dictated by the story.
I would rather only play 11-20 games. When you take on the fact that the majority of games die out before even reaching mid levels, it makes more sense to make a character that has lots of options to work how you want and play them instead of starting at level 1 and never getting anywhere.
The answer to what do you do for the earlier levels is what ever you want. Treat it as more backstory.
My current druid would have been boring to play until near mid levels. Her whole story is that her Dragon shape is her true form that she can only take for short periods due to a curse, as she gets stronger she over comes the limitations. I get great new options every level while my earlier levels are kinda mismatched setup to make the end result better.
I think it's great. It really opens up the "bring whatever wild backstory you want" type characters. You're starting off as someone who is already a big deal, almost any backstory is fair game. Starting at level 1 really doesn't give you that flexibility and gets very tedious after a while.
It's not great as a first AP for new players to PF2 though, as starting at level 11 means a LOT of stuff gets thrown at you very quickly in character creation and early combat. You've got a lot of abilities to learn on the fly vs getting them gradually.
But for an experienced group this is absolutely awesome. I'm glad they did it again with Stolen Fate & Shadows at Sundown.