I have been listening to a podcast of a Starfinder "Dead Suns" game lately.
It has got me to think about purchasing Starfinder.
Then Pathfinder 2E just came out.
And reading through the forum, it seems to be the general opinion that Starfinder was the "prototype" for Pathfinder 2E.
I do not see any news of a Starfinder 2e being worked on or released, but one would be expected.
I would be very upset if I bought half a dozen books now and 2-4 months down the road, a Starfinder 2e was announced or scheduled to be released.
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Well, I have no clue if there is or will ever be a 2e.
What I can say is by the looks this current Starfinder has at least a year left since they just released a pre playtest post for a new class.
In theory, the longer you wait, the closer you get to that situation.
Would it also be so bad to start a game with several books out with more coming then waiting for a new game with minimum content? It allows you to experience the 'world' of the game while the new version gets up and running.
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I would think that starfinder 2e is at least 3 years out. If I was a betting man, I'd say over 5 years. Ideally they would want PF2E to be in a near perfect spot of learning what was a mistake and what worked very well before they launch a starfinder 2. Judging by the debates still raging in those forums, that's a long way off still.
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I hope it's a good long while before anything like that happens given I am a SF fan but not a PF2e fan.
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Starfinder has its problems, but it doesn't need the PF2 treatment, at least not any time soon. It's not nearly as broken as PF1 was, even at the same point in development.
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While I personally *hope* they come out with a Starfinder 2 that brings it into alignment and compatibility with Pathfinder 2 soon, I have serious doubt that this will happen any sooner than ~3 years.
First, Paizo has the option of satisfying many of the current SF2 cries with a much lower effort optional ruleset for Starfinder, or a sci-fi add-on to bolt onto Pathfinder 2. These could be within the scope of a single book.
Second, Paizo doesn't move onto new editions lightly. They likely feel they have a duty to the fans of Starfinder to see that it gets its time in the sun. There are lots of people enjoying it as-is.
Third, and this is pure speculation, it seems that there are some differences between the Starfinder and Pathfinder design teams that might take some time to work out. Their fundamental game design stances appear to be somewhat divergent. The Starfinder devs appear to enjoy big item lists, non-functional multiclassing, class-specific skill dominance, and fractional math. They might have no interest in developing for a SF2 that aligns better with PF2.
Fourth, the small market share for sci-fi games is more sensitive to edition shifts. Their starfinder playerbase is a small flame they're trying to grow. It's not like PF2 where there is a massive swell of fantasy ttrpg players looking for a new thing after 5e. They'd be looking more at selling a new system to their current players, which has much lower potential for profit.
That's not to say I don't still feel that moving to a PF2 compatible SF2 is the right decision now. I believe a PF2 compatible SF2 would be a big open portal to comfortably transition fantasy ttrpg players into science fantasy or even sci-fi settings, and would result in a sizable increase in sci-fi playerbase. I think the janky Starfinder rules are holding it back from being approachable. I think failing to establish a firm mechanical link between SF and PF while PF2 is still new is going to have long lasting negative impacts for Paizo, the playerbase, and the setting.
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See, I don't really see the need for trying to make the 2 games compatible with each other. When I play a Fantasy game, I don't mind hints of other stuff in there but I wouldn't want a full Sci Fi game cross over, I think it just wouldn't work. How do you keep the old fashioned guy and his beating stick an epic hero when every Tom, Dick and Harry is running around in Power armour and huge Laser weapons?
I am not a 2e fan, but I think it would be better to have an add on for some fancy tech (Like they did with the first pathfinder) rather then butcher another game to fit it.
A lot of well thought out or educated guesses as to Paizo's schedule.
I think I'll be dipping my toe with the compact Starfinder rules and PDFs for support material.
At least until I feel confident that SF1 will be around for awhile.
I hope my group like all the crunchy SF rules.
My best guess is that they will put out Starfinder 2E (or some totally new game) a couple of years before they put out Pathfinder 3E. That sequence worked once before, so why not try it again when the time comes?
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Well poop happens... I was happy enough with Pathfinder then they changed it for 2e
Well its each to their own... eventually they will make a change to put someone off. You just have to hope its later
Don't particularly want Pathfinder 3e because I'm really happy with Pathfinder 2e x'D
I definitely agree -- but I am making a prediction as to what a Starfinder 2E or a totally new game would portend for the main Pathfinder line. As long as Paizo has not announced a new edition of anything, we can enjoy the new material we are getting for their two active game lines.
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While reading through that other thread, I had a thought - I don't think I've ever seen discussion of what a 2nd Edition could mean for Starship Combat, in any of the Starfinder 2E threads.
I appreciate that Paizo tried something new when they put Starship Combat into Starfinder, but it's also clear that there's a lot of people who are dissatisfied with it. There's room for improvement. If there were a Starfinder 2E, a revamped Starship Combat System is one of the things I'd be most interested in seeing.
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I hope they don't wait for 2e for that - Starfinder Unchained (un-cable'd? Unplugged?) with an alternative for starship combat and a redo of the witchwarper would be great.
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The starship operations manual already took a few whacks at re designing starship combat, if you want to see if any of those are any fun.
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For me there's two basic problems with Starfinder as-is:
- Low level to mid level personal combat is boring, because of the basic way character progression is designed (you get all of one, maybe two things you can actually do well, so combat at levels 1-4 is just doing those over and over every turn, and mid level combat can have the same problem depending on the obviously optimal selections for a given class).
- Low level starship combat is boring, for the same reason (pilot stunts, engineer diverts power to shields, everyone else shoots, repeat every turn).
Also, operatives are the just plain best class for most purposes (most damage, biggest numbers for everything, best class ability selections), but still manage to be really boring at low levels because you're just using the same trick attack every round.
Fundamentally fixing these problems would take a fairly deep redesign of how character progression works to better reflect something like the PF 2e model, where most "big numbers" options just don't exist and the game actively hands you several things to do per combat right away.
I don't think Paizo would resolve that in a 2e, since they seem to hold that first level shouldn't be very front-loaded so make first time players 'get a lay of the land'. Which I feel like would be fine if they didn't also present level 1 as the default, but instead had level 2 or 3 as 'starting level for most adventurers' or something.
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For me there's two basic problems with Starfinder as-is:
- Low level to mid level personal combat is boring [...]
- Low level starship combat is boring[...]Also, operatives are the just plain best class for most purposes (most damage, biggest numbers for everything, best class ability selections), but still manage to be really boring at low levels because you're just using the same trick attack every round.
I think all three can be easily fixed.
For the first two the DM has simply stay away from boring "arena shot outs", add cover (yes also in space combat!), environment effects, mooks, triggerable actions and timers and your combat will get MUCH more interesting (and you also train for higher level combat^^)I also want to test for starship combat if it works if you switch back to normal initiative (and damage) order and skip the fixed role chain. Have to see if this breaks up the slow combat. (Also you can give your players things like drones/figthercrafts).
Also removing the level restrictions for the bonus "tricks" in starship combat could help (they already have a higher DC, so why "double gate" them?)
For the operative, a simple "band aid" would be to let Operatives Edge only work with your specilization skills and remove the free skill point there.
The high skill ranks will still keep him as the skill monkey who is extremly profienct in his signature skills, but will remove the issue that he simply outranks EVERYBODY regarding skills (at the same time).
My bigger issue is more with the item scaling and the economy system. I would love to see a alternate version where the weapon/armor list isn't that bloated and effectivness increases are more bound to class advancement (like with weapon spec.) and item mods.
But I think this wouldn't need a complete revamp of the system (aka 2E) but a "Starfinder unplugged" Book would do it (I like this term^^).
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I don't think Paizo would resolve that in a 2e, since they seem to hold that first level shouldn't be very front-loaded so make first time players 'get a lay of the land'. Which I feel like would be fine if they didn't also present level 1 as the default, but instead had level 2 or 3 as 'starting level for most adventurers' or something.
PF2 lets you do lots of different stuff at level 1. Combat maneuvers, intimidation, switch hitting, etc.
I don't think Paizo would resolve that in a 2e, since they seem to hold that first level shouldn't be very front-loaded so make first time players 'get a lay of the land'. Which I feel like would be fine if they didn't also present level 1 as the default, but instead had level 2 or 3 as 'starting level for most adventurers' or something.PF2 lets you do lots of different stuff at level 1. Combat maneuvers, intimidation, switch hitting, etc.
You can do that in starfinder... just the accuracy/benefit of doing so is much lower in SF than PF2.
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I see a lot of move action demoralizing in starfinder.
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For Starfinder 2E I'd like to see a 640 page core book.
I doubt we'll see Starfinder 2E anytime soon. While we wait I'd be happy with a "Starfinder Unbound" or something like that. Pathfinder Unleashed didn't come out until ~five years after Pathfinder 1E's release so I wouldn't expect anything like that until 2023 at the earliest IF Paizo even plans on doing a book like that.
TL;DR:
A book of alternate rules would be awesome but I wouldn't expect it before 2023 if it happens at all.
Starfinder 2E core book should be MASSIVE!
PF2 lets you do lots of different stuff at level 1. Combat maneuvers, intimidation, switch hitting, etc.
All of that exists at level 1 in Starfinder, so I was assuming they meant more character specific options.
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I'm in no rush for it but would love to see someday the 2 systems completely compatible or close to it. Some adventures with time travel between the 2 settings would be fun. I all so like when primitive tech cultures take on and beat the more high-tech couture. I'd love to see starfinder wiht 2Es Three action economy, when you're using semi-auto guns one shot per turn seems low.
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The game's only 4 years old. Isn't it a little soon for a second edition?
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It might be better to shift to a 1.5 edition than a straight up 2e. Make some major changes while also making it feel the same. Worked pretty good for D&D 3 to 3.5e. Personally I'm more a fan of AD&D 2nd Ed than anything else, but I also liked THAC0 and things where you had to subtract as well as add. Sorry, but even basic math is fun to me.
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Either way though, I forgot if I ever actually said my opinion on hypothetical starfinder 2e mechanics wise?
I'm honestly happy with just inclusion of 3 action action economy and skill math being more like in 2e :p And this isn't because I think 1.5 * apl math calculations don't work, but because starfinder definitely follows the "you HAVE to put every skill point into rank if you want it to be useful and even then you need skill focus and item bonuses to keep up" the higher level it goes. Which has both good and bad things to it, but I think its important to get rid of skill rank points overall and the +4 random kit bonuses as well.
Otherwise I'm preeeetty happy with starfinder. I do think starfinder economy doesn't feel satisfying yeah, but I don't think they want to switch to "every laser rifle is generic laser rifle" instead of "multiple tiers of same weapon" style. Like yeah they would probably improve starship combat in hypothetical second edition but I don't really mind it as it is that much.
(though I wouldn't mind 2e crit system getting to starfinder. I definitely want 2e four degrees of spell failure/success to starfinder since starfinder still has some pretty nasty save or die/suck effects that would be evil if used vs pcs.)
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As much as I like 2e, sometimes the math is a little too tight. Not having an 18 in a starting stat is usually a big mistake, not having a fully upgraded weapon, etc. In starfinder numbers are looser without the hugely inflated numbers you can get in 1e pathfinder, so there's some wiggle room.
I also like that starfinder is a little more forgiving with character concepts (in my eyes at least). In 2e so many things have anathemas or very clear and strict ways your character works. Starfinder presents some possible ways your character might work, but you as a player aren't forced into anything. Take mystic - you can get your powers from a diety, from psychic powers, study, whatever you want.
Starfinder has flaws, of course, but 2e does too. I don't know that one is clearly superior over the other
3 action economy for the win, in my humble opinion, but still having fun with SF these days. And I have noticed at least on Roll20 an uptick in totally new Starfinder players very interested in trying it out, finally :)
Tom
I agree that Operatives can be a bit boring; however, they are tough cookies; especially at level 7. If you GM, send a lot of them at the PCs and watch the fun begin!
My first SFS character, and thus my highest-level one, is an operative. I don't find her boring, but that's mostly because there is almost never a scene where she's completely useless (she can attempt to aid in almost anything that doesn't require spellcasting or a Profession she doesn't have).
Ironically, I built her to be absolutely the best possible pilot for her level, so starship combat has grown somewhat boring since she got skill mastery. I gave her Skill Focus (Piloting) at 1st level, so she hardly ever needs to roll dice in starship combat anymore, unless an enemy ship has an extremely good pilot.
The toughest challenges she has faced have been enemy operatives (dishing it out rocks, but taking it sucks!) and certain jinsul who are built to thwart operatives (BOO!).
I don't know if the error is on the operative, where you have just about the fastest scaling bonus to all skills, or on the other classes who's scaling bonus to all skills and class abilities that are supposed to be really good at a few particular skills. An operative is just as good at medicine as a biohacker and just as good at engineering as a mechanic. They're jack of all trades master of...all trades. The technomancer has a worse scaling bonus, but more reason to pump int. An operative and a biohacker and a mechanic make the exact same trade off between offensive ability to hit with dex and skill ability with int.
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I would rather have a 1.5/Unchained. There is too much cool stuff and I think a strong subsystem is way more achievable than with PF1.
I'll start worrying about 2e Starfinder when the annual playtests stop coming.
And since Evolutionist doesn't have a release its tagged to I think that means you shouldn't expect it in the next 2 years
Also, I wonder if Drift Crisis might be a way to introduce rule reworks/alternatives like unchained. Thematically, it is a big shift in the setting, so it might just be a good place to put some. I'm not sure what else would fill a book like that, honestly.
I wonder whether it will do much more than make the setting less centered on Absalom Station. For example, the Azlanti Empire is entirely in "the Vast", but it would make more sense for its worlds to be part of their own separate network from "Near Space", which is presumably centered on the Pact Worlds.
I would really love to see how any "Drift Crisis" could be stretched to cover things not obviously related to interstellar travel.
The Azlanti Star Empire has its own version of the starstone which it uses to home in on for drift travel. If your drift drive is attuned to the Aeon Throne you can jump back to New Thespera, just like Absalom Station. So from their perspective their space isn't the Vast, it's Near Space.
But unless you're a purple-eyed human I don't see why you'd want to jump directly to New Thespera.
Also I'm skeptical that Drift Crisis is going to be -that- big of a shift. The Worldwound closed in PF1 but it's business as usual in PF2. If they were to change the theme of the whole game it might alienate some customer base.
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I'm nearly certain this book is actually a planar setting book with some plot advancement and drift plane development.
I'd buy that for a dollar!
Honestly, planar stuff is cool, too. I gotta know what First World IN SPACE is like.