Derklord wrote: Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up? Nope, UW never recieved a second printing (which is the only time paizo releases errata), and the question isn't answered in the book's FAQs. And those are the only two sources of changes to the RAW. Nothing in the PFS clarifications either.
Of course, RAW isn't actually problematic - bonus means bonus, not replacement. And as written, the archetype is incompatible with anything that alters or removes the 1st level hex, something I actually like for balance. And I totally agree, the archetype is far from overpowered even with a bonus hex. Thanks Derk.
I think the biggest "risk" with this interpretation is that it makes for a potentially over-powered splash. Take 1 level of season witch to get protective luck & soothsayer, or maybe gift & greater gift of consumption.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Derklord wrote: Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up? Nope, UW never recieved a second printing (which is the only time paizo releases errata), and the question isn't answered in the book's FAQs. And those are the only two sources of changes to the RAW. Nothing in the PFS clarifications either.
Of course, RAW isn't actually problematic - bonus means bonus, not replacement. And as written, the archetype is incompatible with anything that alters or removes the 1st level hex, something I actually like for balance. And I totally agree, the archetype is far from overpowered even with a bonus hex. Thanks Derk.
I think the biggest "risk" with this interpretation is that it makes for a potentially over-powered splash. Take 1 level of season witch to get protective luck & soothsayer, or maybe gift & greater gift of consumption. Neither of those are a concern, the bonus hex from season witch is limited by the specific season, and there are only 8 possibilities:
Spring either the charm hex or disguise hex.
Summer either the fortune hex or misfortune hex.
Autumn either the blight hex or slumber hex.
Winter either the healing hex or ward hex.
pad300 wrote: Neither of those are a concern, the bonus hex from season witch is limited by the specific season, and there are only 8 possibilities:
Spring either the charm hex or disguise hex.
Summer either the fortune hex or misfortune hex.
Autumn either the blight hex or slumber hex.
Winter either the healing hex or ward hex.
I knew that, I was just reading it. Thanks.
This does make the Season Witch a clear front-runner for a 1 or 2 level splash. Who cares if your patron spell list is woeful if you're only here for 2 or 3 hexes?
Let's see just how bad the season patrons are:
Autumn
@Level 2: Ray of Enfeeblement -- not a bad spell, but it's already on your list.
@Level 4: Create Pit -- pretty good battlefield control spell, and it's not on your list. Unfortunately, you don't get the upgraded versions of it later on.
@Level 6: Gentle Repose -- not only is this already on your core spell list as a 2nd level spell, but this Patron gives it to you late entry, and casting it as a 3rd level spell does nothing to enhance it. Poop (0/5).
@Level 8: Vitriolic Mist -- if you're into Fire Shield, you'd be into this, since it's the same type of spell, but these just aren't very good as 4th level spells, and by the time you can cast them, the retaliatory damage they do won't be much of a deterrent to attackers (and it requires that they actually hit you, which you don't want).
@Level 10: Major Creation -- somewhat useful spell, but it's already on your core list.
@Level 12: Acid Fog -- not great deterrent damage, but since it blocks sight, it could actually work as decent battlefield control as long as enemies can't see you through it, although usually you won't be able to see through it either. If you can somehow see through it or better yet go through it without being hindered or harmed (or at least have an ally that can do so), this gets a lot better.
@Level 14: Caustic Eruption -- a seriously nasty blast that isn't on your core list and is of less probability to be resisted than most elemental damage, but marred by having a non-scaling range so short that you're guaranteed to be at least right on the edge of it.
@Level 16: Horrid Wilting -- a nasty blast that targets Fortitude (although it won't work on Constructs and Undead), but it's already on your core list.
@Level 18: Wail of the Banshee -- an even nastier blast that targets Fortitude, but a Save totally negates instead of cutting it in half, and you can't aim it unless you have Selective Spell and a Metamagic cost reducer (or a Greater Selective Spell Rod), and it's already on your list anyway.
The verdict: Not Good. Out of the box, only Create Pit stands out, and Acid Fog and Caustic Eruption might be standouts with significant investment, but overall this is seriously uninspiring.
Spring
@Level 2: Feather Fall -- a potential life saver, and it's not on your core list, and even if you have flight, you might want this to save somebody else.
@Level 4: Alter Self -- good spell, but it's already on your core list.
@Level 6: Pup Shape -- being effective only on Animals, this is pretty niche, and it's already on your core list.
@Level 8: True Form -- a pretty good debuff against shapechangers, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 10: Lightning Arc -- like Lightning Bolt, except that you can actually get it to tear through a line of enemies that is perpendicular to the direction from them to you, meaning you can actually hit an enemy battle line without having to somehow work yourself into the end of it (and if they are lined up in some other way, you can make use of that too); and it's not on your core list.
@Level 12: Chain Lightning -- semi-duplicative of Lightning Arc, although it is much more flexible and does more damage; do note that the Save DC for the secondary targets is actually lower than that of Lightning Arc, and this spell is already on your core list.
@Level 14: Control Weather -- can have its uses, but it's already on your core list.
@Level 16: Stormbolts -- pretty good blast with free Selective Spell but lousy range, but it's already on your core list.
@Level 18: Time Stop -- now this is a good spell that isn't on your core list.
The verdict: Not Great, but not as bad as Autumn -- at least Feather Fall, Lightning Arc, and Time Stop are good spells that are not already on your core list, but that's only 1/3 of the Patron spells. Gets better if you have some archetype that replaces most of the other Patron spells but leaves these alone.
Summer
@Level 2: Goodberry -- pretty good survival utility, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 4: Flaming Sphere -- pretty decent adjustable battlefield control, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 6: If you need powerful illumination, this is for you, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 8: Flaming Sphere Greater Edition -- pretty decent adjustable battlefield control, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 10: Wall of Fire -- battlefield control that isn't on your list, but you get it 1 level late, and the damage is rather wimpy even for its original level, so it won't be a very good deterrent for most things that would simply wade through to put themselves where they want to be to rip you to shreds.
@Level 12: Sirocco -- decent combination battlefield control and debuff, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 14: Sunbeam -- combination debuff and undead/fungus/ooze-specific blast, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 16: Sunburst -- like sunbeam, but all in 1 burst, and still not on your core list.
@Level 18: Fiery Body -- pretty good self-buff, and it's not on your core list. Just beware of something that might trap you in water or hit you with a major Cold attack.
The verdict: Now THIS one is good -- NONE of these spells are on the Witch spell list, and only Wall of Fire is a stinker, and with some investment (Dazing Spell or an Intermediate Rod thereof) you could even make that one good.
Winter
@Level 2: Unshakable Chill -- you could get some use of this in hit-and-run attacks, but for most purposes it takes too long to work, and it's on your core list anyway.
@Level 4: Resist Elements (Cold only) -- Resist Elements is not a bad spell, and it's even not on your core list, but you get an element-locked version of it. Might be good campaign-specifically, but even then, intelligent opponents will throw surprises if they can.
@Level 6: Ice Storm -- on your core list, but you get to use it in a spell slot 1 level lower (even compared to a Wizard), upgrading it from a mediocre combination blast and battlefield control to a decent one for the low levels.
@Level 8: Wall of Ice -- battlefield control, and not on your core list.
@Level 10: Cone of Cold -- a blast that's on your core list, but you get it to use it in a spell slot 1 level lower than other Witches (like a Wizard).
@Level 12: Freezing Sphere -- blast with long range and wide area, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 14: Control Weather -- can have its uses, but it's already on your core list.
@Level 16: Polar Ray -- No Save (but Ranged Touch Attack) single-target blast and debuff, and it's not on your core list.
@Level 18: Polar Midnight -- nasty combination blast, debuff, and battlefield control that you can move around, but it's already on your core list.
The verdict: Not bad, although marred by Unshakable Chill, Control Weather, and Polar Midnight being already on your core list (and not early entry), and Resist Elements being element-locked. Gets better if you have some archetype that replaces these spells but leaves the other ones alone.
The overall verdict: If you have to be a Season Witch, the Summer Witch has by far the best Patron.
UnArcaneElection wrote: @Level 4: Flaming Sphere -- pretty decent adjustable battlefield control, and it's not on your core list. How is that battlefield control? It does nothing but damage. Also, the move action to command it around clashes with the move action to use Cackle, which both the bonus hexes want. It's also 'Ref negates' instead of the usual 'Ref half', which I don't like.
Similarly, I look at Sunbeam as a bit weaker for Witch than for others, because we have plenty of other things to do with our standard actions even if we don't want to invest more spell slots. [ooc]Also, if you can get access to a fatchling spell, Gloomblind Bolts makes it look really pathetic in comparison.[/url]
The only spell on the list that really blows me away is Sirocco, and even though I overall agree that summer has the best list, I think it's really weak especially at lower levels. Of course, with spring and winter having bad bonus hex options in addition to weak patron lists, and autmumn having exact three spells that profit from the DC bonus, with Caustic Eruption the only one worth casting, there isn't much competition for best season for the archetype.
UnArcaneElection wrote: @Level 12: Acid Fog -- [...] If you can somehow see through it [...], this gets a lot better. Why would you get such an ability in the first place when it comes baked in for the 3rd level spell Barrow Haze, though? And while Acid Fog ism not on the Witch list, Barrow Haze, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Web Cloud, and Cloudkill are, and they're all better.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Let's see just how bad the season patrons are... Autumn -- Yup, it's pretty bad.
Spring -- If you want to be a lightning witch this is actually pretty decent. You add lightning arc, get chain lightning a level early, and of course you already have lightning.
Summer -- You get a bunch of 2nd tier fire spells, wall of fire a level late, and then eventually sirocco. This list just makes me want to take the Elements patron.
Winter -- The 3rd-6th level slots are all decent. I'd rank these spells a bit above Summer.
Derklord wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: @Level 4: Flaming Sphere -- pretty decent adjustable battlefield control, and it's not on your core list. How is that battlefield control? It does nothing but damage. Also, the move action to command it around clashes with the move action to use Cackle, which both the bonus hexes want. It's also 'Ref negates' instead of the usual 'Ref half', which I don't like. It's effectiveness does fall off at higher levels, but at low levels its damage is enough that (depending upon terrain) you could use it to herd creatures in a direction you want even as you do damage to one at a time. Yes, action economy clashes are a problem, but in some cases you won't have to move it every round to deny a space to enemies (it doesn't go away if you stop concentrating on it -- it just doesn't move for that round). Invest a bit in Bluff and Intimidate and make enemies unsure that you can't move it any time you want, and you'll probably succeed against enemies that aren't experts in Witchcraft.
Derklord wrote: Similarly, I look at Sunbeam as a bit weaker for Witch than for others, because we have plenty of other things to do with our standard actions even if we don't want to invest more spell slots. [ooc]Also, if you can get access to a fatchling spell, Gloomblind Bolts makes it look really pathetic in comparison.[/url] Gloomblind Bolts would indeed be good if you could get it. Most Witches can't.
Derklord wrote: The only spell on the list that really blows me away is Sirocco, I see what you did there.
Derklord wrote: and even though I overall agree that summer has the best list, I think it's really weak especially at lower levels. Of course, with spring and winter having bad bonus hex options in addition to weak patron lists, and autmumn having exact three spells that profit from the DC bonus, with Caustic Eruption the only one worth casting, there isn't much competition for best season for the archetype. I didn't say Summer was awesome, only that it is good, standing out among the stinkers that pervade the other seasons.
Derklord wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: @Level 12: Acid Fog -- [...] If you can somehow see through it [...], this gets a lot better. Why would you get such an ability in the first place when it comes baked in for the 3rd level spell Barrow Haze, though? And while Acid Fog ism not on the Witch list, Barrow Haze, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog, Web Cloud, and Cloudkill are, and they're all better. These are good spells, but in case you're up against something that resists the others(*), this is an option that not all such somethings will resist.
(*)Resistances/Immunities conferred (in order of your listing, but not an exhaustive list) by Hex Ward (only partial counter), being Construct/Ooze/Undead, Freedom of Movement, Freedom of Movement, and being Construct/Ooze/Undead (granted, a decent number of Oozes are resistant or immune to Acid as well).
I had forgotten about Barrow Haze -- that is a tough one for enemies to counter -- Hex Ward only partly counters Hexes, and doesn't counter the vision blocking (and at least counters for that will also counter the vision blocking of Acid Fog), and Barrow Haze comes with a free vision unblock for you. (And only 3rd level? Seems due for a level bump and maybe even a double level bump.) So I'll amend my rating of Acid Fog to say that this would have been decent except that it is basically completely outclassed (except in rare corner cases) by the overpowered Barrow Haze, thereby making Autumn even more of a stinker Patron.
UnArcaneElection wrote: It's effectiveness does fall off at higher levels, but at low levels its damage is enough that (depending upon terrain) you could use it to herd creatures in a direction you want even as you do damage to one at a time. I don't see how this herds anything. Nothing prevents creatures to moving in a direction that you don't want. Creatures without spellcraft may no want to move through it, and even those who do may not want to end their movement in it (if they put value on your move action), but even than it only blocks a single square, and used this way deals no damage. I guess you can put it in front of you to prevent getting charged form that direction, but that's about it in regards to battlefield control, and you could get much more value from simply casting Web.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Gloomblind Bolts would indeed be good if you could get it. Most Witches can't. That's why that part was supposed to be in OOC formatting. It was a comment, not the main argument.
Do you two think the Season Witch entry in the guide strikes the right balance on the season patrons?
The guide
And do you think it's worth mentioning that the Season Witch and Winter Witch archetypes are very nearly compatible? They both modify the list of permitted patrons, though they overlap on the Winter patron.
Season Witch
pro: +1 DC, bonus hex
con: subpar patrons
Winter Witch
pro: +1 DC, endure elements/cold resist, entry to the Winter Witch prestige class
con: limited patron list (though with good options), limited familiar list (thought with good options), lose your 4th level hex
Combining them you get +2 DC for cold spells, you break even on hexes, gain entry to the prestige class, all at the cost of taking the Winter patron. And that patron isn't quite so bad with a +2 DC. That's a bit too good, but might be okay in a higher-powered campaign with generally optimized characters.
Seems reasonable, although the Season Winter Witch and the Irrisen Winter Witch, though close to compatible, are not technically compatible due to Paizo's restrictive rules about combining archetypes (even when a combination would logically make sense). The Season Winter Witch by itself unfortunately can't get you access to the Winter Witch prestige class.
While looking at that part of the guide, I also noticed that the Hex Channeler archetype could use another note. While you wouldn't be able to get Variant Channeling unless you have a Divine Patron, you could get Command Undead/Turn Undead(*) without needing such a Patron. These are feats that even a Wizard can get (by way of the Necromancy Arcane School), and they don't care how many Channeling damage dice you do, just what your effective Cleric level is, and that is full progression. If you are in a campaign that has a lot of Undead, this could be a good deal. This would also be good eventually for a Gravewalker, although at the cost of taking a long time to get going due to having no Hexes (or ability to take Extra Hex) until 6th level.
(*)Technically you could then get Blazing Channel to follow up Turn Undead without needing a Divine Patron, although the flavor text makes this seem to be an oversight.
Also would like to bump up the rating of Dimensional Occultist a bit: Up front, I acknowledge the problem with not getting Magic Circle Against {Alighment} as a bonus spell and then trying to use the Planar Binding series of spells -- so the Patron does suffer. But the other class features are not so bad. Dimensional Augmentation gives you a Caster Level boost for out-of-combat spells (which might include bad status removal as well as divination) -- much less powerful than a Spell Sage Wizard's Focused Spells, but eventually many more times per day. Commune With Familiar means that you can Commune with extraplanar entities and only hose yourself for 1 day instead of several weeks if you botch it, and you get +4 on the check to avoid botching it in the first place. This makes an actually usable version of Contact Other Plane. And if you are doing teleportation and planar travel, Dimensional Waypoints could be a life saver; not everybody is going to need this, but if you need it, you need it bad. So I would say that this archetype starts out Orange at low levels and then climbs up to Green at high levels.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Seems reasonable, although the Season Winter Witch and the Irrisen Winter Witch, though close to compatible, are not technically compatible due to Paizo's restrictive rules about combining archetypes (even when a combination would logically make sense). The Season Winter Witch by itself unfortunately can't get you access to the Winter Witch prestige class. Agreed. I'll leave out the "almost compatible" dynamic between those archetypes.
Your other points sound right to me. I updated Hex Channeler & Dimensional Occultist accordingly.
I found another nit to pick: The Winter Witch prestige class, if you wish to offset the 1 level delay in spellcasting progression, actually requires 2 feats, because Prestigious Spellcaster requires Favored Prestige Class, which lets you get 1 extra hit point or 1 extra skill point (but doesn't let you continue a primary class Favored Class Bonus) for each level of prestige class, and acts as 2/3 of a Skill Focus (but oddly, it stacks with actual Skill Focus but not with the dual 2/3 skill bonus feats such as Magical Aptitude or Persuasive). It's not all bad, but you have to budget more than just 1 feat.
Other archetype thoughts: Whenever I see Tatterdemalion Witch, I get the irrational urge to acquire one as a Cohort while playing a Ratfolk Vigilante with leadership. Ratman and Bobbin . . . .
UnArcaneElection wrote: I found another nit to pick: The Winter Witch prestige class, if you wish to offset the 1 level delay in spellcasting progression, actually requires 2 feats, because Prestigious Spellcaster requires Favored Prestige Class, which lets you get 1 extra hit point or 1 extra skill point (but doesn't let you continue a primary class Favored Class Bonus) for each level of prestige class, and acts as 2/3 of a Skill Focus (but oddly, it stacks with actual Skill Focus but not with the dual 2/3 skill bonus feats such as Magical Aptitude or Persuasive). It's not all bad, but you have to budget more than just 1 feat.
Other archetype thoughts: Whenever I see Tatterdemalion Witch, I get the irrational urge to acquire one as a Cohort while playing a Ratfolk Vigilante with leadership. Ratman and Bobbin . . . .
Good catch. I updated that.
And... I only wish I had a skein pun. But I don't.
Derklord wrote: As promised, here are my hex ratings and comments.
** spoiler omitted **...
Derk,
We got so distracted, discussing Abominate, that I'm not sure I ever replied to your ratings overall. Since you mentioned this in another thread, and I didn't want to hijack that one, I'll resurrect this thread.
Discord -- At 8th level this is actually kind of decent if your campaign is one where sowing dissent is useful. On a 5 point scale I'd bump it up to 2 1/2, but only once you're 8th level.
Animal Skin -- This is for movement (swim/fly/climb), disguise & stealth. Plus your hexes all work when you're polymorphed, which could be nice. So ... maybe a 3.
Hag's Eye -- The option to use this in 1 minute increments is what makes it good. That's nearly unlimited for the purpose of determining whether there are enemies in that ravine, what's up those stairs, whether that building is empty, etc. It's at least a 3, maybe even a 4.
Restless Slumber -- This wholly eliminates an opponent on a failed will save. The only reason Ice Tomb is better is because its fort save gives the witch more variety (since most of her hexes have a will save). It's a pretty solid 4.
Retribution -- I'd bump this up to a 3. It's a solid choice vs golems, constructs, undead, all of the opponents that aren't susceptible to mind-affecting effects. And, as you mentioned, it combos well with the summon monster series.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Discord -- At 8th level this is actually kind of decent if your campaign is one where sowing dissent is useful. On a 5 point scale I'd bump it up to 2 1/2, but only once you're 8th level. I just can't imagine any situations where the hex is useful.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Animal Skin -- This is for movement (swim/fly/climb), disguise & stealth. Plus your hexes all work when you're polymorphed, which could be nice. So ... maybe a 3. At that time you already have Overland Flight, so the movement stuff only helps for underwater. For which the hex admittedly is good. I guess the stealth part could be useful for infiltration, but shutting down spellcasting makes it risky, and not combat-usable for most builds. That said, Witches don't naturally have Invisibility on their list, and in a solo or social-heavy (or infiltration-heavy) campaign, I can see strong merit; enough to indeed rate it a 3.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Hag's Eye -- The option to use this in 1 minute increments is what makes it good. That's nearly unlimited for the purpose of determining whether there are enemies in that ravine, what's up those stairs, whether that building is empty, etc. It's at least a 3, maybe even a 4. What actually makes it good, something I'd missed before, is that Arcane Eye has a casting time of 10 minutes (!), and as a supernatural ability Hag's Eye cuts that down to a standard action. That does make a difference, and I concur that it's at least worth a 3.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Restless Slumber -- This wholly eliminates an opponent on a failed will save. The only reason Ice Tomb is better is because its fort save gives the witch more variety (since most of her hexes have a will save). It's a pretty solid 4. The thing is that you already (need to) have Slumber, which has the same DC, and can be Split Hex'd. Against opponents not likely to be awaken, the additional confusion is probably irrelevant, and against ordinary groups of enemies, a Split Hex'd Slumber is actually better. Restless SLumber is only really an upgrade when you face a boss with many mooks, or your combats last long enough that chaining sleep inducing hexes is relevant. Or if you for some reason don't take Split Hex and Accursed Hex.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Retribution -- I'd bump this up to a 3. It's a solid choice vs golems, constructs, undead, all of the opponents that aren't susceptible to mind-affecting effects. Is it better than Misfortune, though?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I added a brief section that breaks out the offensive spells that ignore spell resistance, at least the ones worth casting. There are a few surprises, such as the 3rd level Jealous Rage.
Please call out any you're aware of that I missed.
Cheers.
Derklord wrote: Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up? Nope, UW never recieved a second printing (which is the only time paizo releases errata), and the question isn't answered in the book's FAQs. And those are the only two sources of changes to the RAW. Nothing in the PFS clarifications either.
Of course, RAW isn't actually problematic - bonus means bonus, not replacement. And as written, the archetype is incompatible with anything that alters or removes the 1st level hex, something I actually like for balance. And I totally agree, the archetype is far from overpowered even with a bonus hex. I have a law degree and used to be a solicitor, therefore am the perfect rules lawyer. And Derklord is dead right in reasoning and conclusion imho.
Further, When the taking of a hex at a level is compulsory Paizo phrase it differently, for example from the Bouda archetype:-
"Bouda’s Eye (Su)
...
This hex must be taken as a bouda’s 1st-level hex, and only a bouda can take this hex."
And the Winter
Witch Prestige class:-
"Winter Hex
Starting at 5th level, whenever a winter witch can choose a major hex, she must choose from the following hexes:
ice tomb
hoarfrost
numbing chill (see below)
Once the winter witch has selected all three winter hexes, she may thereafter choose any other hex she meets the prerequisites for."
Joynt Jezebel wrote: Derklord wrote: Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Is anyone aware of a ruling/faq/errata that clears this up? Nope, UW never recieved a second printing (which is the only time paizo releases errata), and the question isn't answered in the book's FAQs. And those are the only two sources of changes to the RAW. Nothing in the PFS clarifications either.
Of course, RAW isn't actually problematic - bonus means bonus, not replacement. And as written, the archetype is incompatible with anything that alters or removes the 1st level hex, something I actually like for balance. And I totally agree, the archetype is far from overpowered even with a bonus hex. I have a law degree and used to be a solicitor, therefore am the perfect rules lawyer. And Derklord is dead right in reasoning and conclusion imho.
Yup, that’s how it’s described in the guide, as a bonus hex.
I added a few suggestions for cantrip & 1st level wands, many requiring UMD. I also added a list of hexes & spells to use vs undead, a particular weakness of the witch.
Even these highly sporadic updates will likely end with my current campaign, since I imagine this will be our last 1st ed.
I call out the Swine hex as one of the witch's only tools against undead and constructs. Accordingly I upgrade it to "blue" past 8th level, when the transformation of hands into hooves precludes holding weapons (or other items) as well as somatic spell components. That is, the blue rating is because these creatures are otherwise very difficult for the witch to deal with, as nearly all of her hexes and a great number of her spells are ineffective against them.
Swine + Split Hex + Accursed Hex = endless piggies
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I added a cheat sheet for the Spirit Talker feat. Throughout I assume that feats that specify "shaman level" will apply at your witch level. To get the best out of many choices you'll want a non-zero charisma bonus.
Spirit Talker cheat sheet for a witch
I referenced Illuzry's Guide to Shamans, however many of these hexes rate differently for a witch. In some cases this is because a witch is Int-based. More often this is because the option to gain any such shaman hex for the next hour is much more valuable than it would be to choose that hex for your character. Even the Shaman's wonderful Wandering Hex requires that you make your choice at the start of the day, rather than when you run into some difficulty or another.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
You're missing the Mind patron. You also seem to be severely underrating the Gate spell for some reason.
I'd also like to recommend the following prestige classes:
- Loremaster: You only ever need 1 level, the Cauldron hex covers a feat prerequisite, and with a high int you can immediately take the bonus feat secret for a Secret of Magical Discipline feat. Secret of Magical Discipline is very very strong and since you only need 1 level of the prestige class it works quite well for witches.
- Pathfinder Savant: Not as exciting but also useful and versatile, assuming you use Prestigious Spellcaster. It's better if you like using scrolls or Use Magic Device.
- Veiled Illusionist: The only feat prerequisite is a feat you'll likely want anyway. The main appeal is all those illusion spells, like if you wanted to cast Invisibility, Mirror Image, or Shadow Enchantment for instance.
Evangelist should also be rated lower. I know some people like it but... being behind 1 level of spell progression really hurts for a spellcaster, so you should honestly avoid it unless you have some kind of crazy trick in mind.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Tom Sampson wrote: You're missing the Mind patron. You also seem to be severely underrating the Gate spell for some reason.
I'd also like to recommend the following prestige classes:
- Loremaster: You only ever need 1 level, the Cauldron hex covers a feat prerequisite, and with a high int you can immediately take the bonus feat secret for a Secret of Magical Discipline feat. Secret of Magical Discipline is very very strong and since you only need 1 level of the prestige class it works quite well for witches.
- Pathfinder Savant: Not as exciting but also useful and versatile, assuming you use Prestigious Spellcaster. It's better if you like using scrolls or Use Magic Device.
- Veiled Illusionist: The only feat prerequisite is a feat you'll likely want anyway. The main appeal is all those illusion spells, like if you wanted to cast Invisibility, Mirror Image, or Shadow Enchantment for instance.
Evangelist should also be rated lower. I know some people like it but... being behind 1 level of spell progression really hurts for a spellcaster, so you should honestly avoid it unless you have some kind of crazy trick in mind.
Generally good points all around. I downgraded the Evangelist, upgraded Gate, and added Deific & Fey Obedience under feats.
I also added the prestige classes you mention, each of which is worth considering.
As for the Mind patron, I just wasn't motivated enough to dig into how mindscapes work. I've never seen that feature in a campaign, and I'm not sure how many DMs include it.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I also added DeathlessOne's build of a White-Haired Witch with VMC Magus.
Deathless -- Are there any details I should flesh out?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I think you are underrating that Loremaster dip quite a bit. If you take Secret of Magical Discipline 3 or more times, your ability to always cast the right spell, even if that spell is not on your spell list, becomes a thing of absurdity. The only real cost to this is the amount of feats it takes, but the Cauldron hex can account for one of them, at least. Losing 1 level of hex progression while maintaining spellcasting is a minor loss, all told.
While conventional illusions can be quite good, Veiled Illusionist is also usually desired more for shadow spells, which are very versatile.
As for the Mind patron, Create Mindscape is generally overpowered for the simple reason that even when the enemy passes a save they still have to spend time performing the proper activities to exit the mindscape, during which time their bodies are unable to act and lose their dexterity bonus to AC and your party can do whatever they like to your enemies. If you declare that the exit condition is to submerge yourself in a pool of water for a minute, then everyone who passes the will save needs to enter the mindscape's pool and spend 1 minute there before exiting. Create Greater Mindscape is even worse in this respect as you can target an entire encounter, removing the risk that anything will happen to your body. And Mindscape Door becomes downright necessary as a defense against these sorts of stunts but also has some utility in using mindscapes normally. Psychic Asylum is mostly used to prepare spells as a swift action. As for Microcosm, everything that fails its will save is essentially mentally sealed within, unless it can cast Wish or Miracle, so it's practically a multi-targeting will save or die spell, especially since you can just kill them all while they're sealed. Here are the rules on mindscapes.
In addition, it would be good to mention the Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven in your guide, as it clearly empowers the coven hex. If you're splitting the cost 3 ways, and are perhaps even using Craft Wondrous Item, you could get this working at level 9 without much issue. There is also the Grand Coven ritual to empower the coven further by recruiting more members, but the numbers are typically impractical unless you are using the Leadership feat or you have a party of 7 with the coven hex. Usually, however, you obtain and expand a coven's spells by incorporating various hags or a witchfire into your coven.
For races, I think there are a couple of mentions you could stand to add:
Tiefling is usually a thematic pick, and it has good ability scores for it. Usually one trades for scaled skin, prehensile tail, and darklands guide as a Tiefling.
Yaddithian is a bestiary race, though not an overpowered one, and worth noting for its unusual ability to store all your spells in your mind rather than your familiar.
Ifrit has a lavasoul variant that has good ability scores and it can get +4 to initiative along with raising the DC of effects that cause the fascinated condition, and the Witch has a few such spells that are decent, such as Mad Sultan's Melody.
Kitsune has a variant with +2 int and it raises the DCs of enchantment spells by 1.
Wayang is really only a consideration if you want to cast a lot of shadow spells, but in that case it is very strong since the race itself has a +1 to shadow subschool spell DCs and a number of GMs restrict usage of the shadow stencil set, which bestows another +1 to shadow DCs, to the wayang race also. Its favored class bonus even adds shadow spells from the Wizard list to the Witch's spells.
The Sylph race could also stand to mention Like the Wind (+5 foot speed) and Whispering Wind (+4 stealth) alternates.
I agree that the Seducer archetype has the potential to ruin or frustrate roleplay, but it also facilitates playing as the Gathlain race whose favored class bonus adds Druid spells to the Witch's list
I think you're underrating the Beast-Bonded archetype as well, since at-will Magic Jar is a very strong ability and the fact that you no longer have to worry about your familiar dying and removing your ability to prepare spells is also a strong benefit. It even allows you to give feats to your familiar, which combined with the body-snatching surely has its uses.
Good to see some more 1st Edition stuff! I was afraid that it had all gone by the wayside.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Tom Sampson wrote: the Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven in your guide, as it clearly empowers the coven hex. I have never been in a position to set up a coven. But the collar allows it's user to make a swift action attempt to incapacitate a humanoid 3 times per day. Even with a DC 15 save that is excellent.
Tom Sampson wrote: Kitsune has a variant with +2 int and it raises the DCs of enchantment spells by 1. Alternatively, you could take the alternative racial triat-
Superior Shapeshifter Some talented kitsune take more naturally to shapeshifting than magic, and develop that gift. They gain Fox Shape as a bonus feat at 1st level, ignoring its prerequisites. This racial trait replaces kitsune magic.
I think being able to turn into a fox is better for a witch. You can use most hexes as a fox.
Tom Sampson wrote: I agree that the Seducer archetype has the potential to ruin or frustrate roleplay, but it also facilitates playing as the Gathlain race whose favored class bonus adds Druid spells to the Witch's list I had an NPC along these lines using the Feytouched Hexer 3rd party archetype.
A Seducer is more powerful but I don't want to play one. I am unusual as I am a guy who often plays female characters. But all that sex with other PCs is... rather too much.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
@Spotted Owl- more on the Seducer archetype. I agree that the "sexy witch" theme can possibly be bad for a campaign. Not necessarily but it is possible or likely.
You rate the archetype yellow, which [pun unintentional] I disagree with. To consider each of the archetypes features-
Otherworldly Allure Pretty neutral.
Fey Charm (Su) You have to take a markedly improved version of Charm hex at level 1. It is a decent hex and this version is better. A slight plus.
Also, consider that the Charm and Fey Charm hexes can be used on animals too. On second thoughts, don't consider that. Don't think about anything like it at all.
Seducer’s Kiss (Su) This just sucks.
Garden of Delight (Su) Tiny hut 1/day, and if someone rests for 8 hours within they heal at double the normal rate. And anyone you shag in the garden gains a +2 morale bonus to all saves for 24 hours.
You get this at level 8. This is the purple rating, meaning broken good, better than blue used in some guides.
I think the correct rating for this archetype is blue, with a warning about it's possible hazards to play.
As Tom Sampson says, play this as a Gathlain, which is an excellent race that can fly and a FCB giving you druid spells and this is very good indeed.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
The Seducer's Seducer's Kiss class feature can actually be quite decent. If the Witch just uses a +1 conductive longspear (or an elven-branched spear, likely with Weapon Finesse and perhaps even Combat Reflexes and the agile weapon property), the Witch could actually afflict someone with the kiss as an attack of opportunity once per round, since it has unlimited uses per day.
Garden of Delight, however, rewards your PC for having sex with the entire party (and even familiars and animal companions... Was this intentional, given the "any creature" wording?) every night, which is going to have severe roleplaying consequences, although the bonus is redundant with the Heroism spell. I'd ask the GM if you can have that as an automatic bonus for resting there without any sexual activity involved or otherwise just pretend this aspect doesn't exist. Honestly, who on earth came up with this?
I think my greatest disappointment with the Seducer is that it has no notion of classical seduction, which needn't be sexual at all but is more about leading people astray, getting them to follow your wishes, and that sort of thing, so it doesn't even properly fulfill the sort of roleplaying reason one might have for selecting the archetype. At any rate, so long as you ignore that ill-conceived sexual mechanic of Garden of Delight, the archetype is fine.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
We seem to be on the same page about Garden of Delight. Giving the Seducer a powerful game mechanical reason to act like they are in a porn movie seems... mistaken. But it is actually an animal porn movie. I doubt anyone thought of this, or if they did it was someone trying to sneak it into the game as a joke.
On Seducer's Kiss I don't agree that spending feats and acquiring magic items in order to make it good is worth it. A witch is totally unsuited to melee and has other things to do.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Tom Sampson wrote: I think you are underrating that Loremaster dip quite a bit. If you take Secret of Magical Discipline 3 or more times, your ability to always cast the right spell, even if that spell is not on your spell list, becomes a thing of absurdity. The only real cost to this is the amount of feats it takes, but the Cauldron hex can account for one of them, at least. Losing 1 level of hex progression while maintaining spellcasting is a minor loss, all told.
While conventional illusions can be quite good, Veiled Illusionist is also usually desired more for shadow spells, which are very versatile.
I really appreciate all of this.
Loremaster -- Agreed. You take a single level dip, losing none of your spell-casting progression, and gain access to a wildly overpowered feat.
Veiled Illusionist -- I added a call-out to the shadow spells.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Tom Sampson wrote: As for the Mind patron, Create Mindscape is generally overpowered for the simple reason that even when the enemy passes a save they still have to spend time performing the proper activities to exit the mindscape, during which time their bodies are unable to act and lose their dexterity bonus to AC and your party can do whatever they like to your enemies. If you declare that the exit condition is to submerge yourself in a pool of water for a minute, then everyone who passes the will save needs to enter the mindscape's pool and spend 1 minute there before exiting. Create Greater Mindscape is even worse in this respect as you can target an entire encounter, removing the risk that anything will happen to your body. And Mindscape Door becomes downright necessary as a defense against these sorts of stunts but also has some utility in using mindscapes normally. Psychic Asylum is mostly used to prepare spells as a swift action. As for Microcosm, everything that fails its will save is essentially mentally sealed within, unless it can... I feel like this is a rather rarely used feature, and needs to be evaluated by someone who's familiar with how it plays out in a game. What sort of rulings does a DM need to keep a balanced game going, particularly in light of some of the over-powered aspects you call out? I'm still going to pass on the Mind Patron.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Tom Sampson wrote: In addition, it would be good to mention the Iron Collar of the Unbound Coven in your guide, as it clearly empowers the coven hex. If you're splitting the cost 3 ways, and are perhaps even using Craft Wondrous Item, you could get this working at level 9 without much issue. There is also the Grand Coven ritual to empower the coven further by recruiting more members, but the numbers are typically impractical unless you are using the Leadership feat or you have a party of 7 with the coven hex. Usually, however, you obtain and expand a coven's spells by incorporating various hags or a witchfire into your coven. Joynt Jezebel wrote: I have never been in a position to set up a coven. But the collar allows it's user to make a swift action attempt to incapacitate a humanoid 3 times per day. Even with a DC 15 save that is excellent. I added a brief Coven section to the guide, a detail I'd skipped earlier just because having 3 witches (or hags) will be pretty rare. It's implied, but not certain, to me that the hags' spell-like abilities from their coven would be gained by a coven of witches who are not hags.
The key question is whether a coven that does not contain a real hag gains access to a hag coven's spell-like abilities. The simple implication tells us yes, but the power of these at-will spells is great enough to unbalance the campaign.
All that said, the fact that the iron collar also grants hold person 3/day DC 15 as a swift action is pretty great. Even though DC 15 is on the low side, because it's a swift action you can simply throw this out on almost any given round and hope for a failed save.
Tom Sampson wrote: Tiefling is usually a thematic pick, and it has good ability scores for it. Usually one trades for scaled skin, prehensile tail, and darklands guide as a Tiefling. I've skipped over quite a few of the non-core classes, just never got around to digging into them. This is a certainly good choice though, and I'll add it.
scaled skin -- Apart from a very low level campaign, I'd think you'd want to keep your energy resistances and just buy an amulet of natural armor.
prehensile tail -- absolutely
darklands guide -- absolutely
The Amulet of Natural Armor is an enhancement bonus to your natural armor. It stacks on top of your existing natural armor bonus. There are magic items like the War-Kilt of Sarenrae (uses belt slot) or Cloak of the Yeti or Cloak of the Crusader (these use cloak slot, obviously) but those item slots are usually used for other must-have items (cloak of resistance and belts of constitution and/or dexterity). Meanwhile a simple Resist Energy spell tends to render your racial resistances redundant. Of course, the Witch cannot usually cast that spell (although it can obtain Resist Energy through Invoke Deity by selecting Protection).
And you may have to ask your GM to see how they read it, but I read the Tiefling's Darklands Guide as giving the +2 initiative bonus in all terrains and only the saving throw bonus vs traps as requiring underground, because of the comma in there.
Tom Sampson wrote: The Amulet of Natural Armor is an enhancement bonus to your natural armor. It stacks on top of your existing natural armor bonus. There are magic items like the War-Kilt of Sarenrae (uses belt slot) or Cloak of the Yeti or Cloak of the Crusader (these use cloak slot, obviously) but those item slots are usually used for other must-have items (cloak of resistance and belts of constitution and/or dexterity). Meanwhile a simple Resist Energy spell tends to render your racial resistances redundant. Of course, the Witch cannot usually cast that spell (although it can obtain Resist Energy through Invoke Deity by selecting Protection).
And you may have to ask your GM to see how they read it, but I read the Tiefling's Darklands Guide as giving the +2 initiative bonus in all terrains and only the saving throw bonus vs traps as requiring underground, because of the comma in there.
Agreed & updated.
Tom Sampson wrote: Ifrit has a lavasoul variant that has good ability scores and it can get +4 to initiative along with raising the DC of effects that cause the fascinated condition, and the Witch has a few such spells that are decent, such as Mad Sultan's Melody. Since Mad Sultan's Melody only applies to oozes and creatures associated with the Outer Gods, it's not coming to apply very often (at least not for most campaigns). Are there others you're thinking of?
Tom Sampson wrote: Ifrit has a lavasoul variant that has good ability scores and it can get +4 to initiative along with raising the DC of effects that cause the fascinated condition, and the Witch has a few such spells that are decent, such as Mad Sultan's Melody.
Kitsune has a variant with +2 int and it raises the DCs of enchantment spells by 1.
Wayang is really only a consideration if you want to cast a lot of shadow spells, but in that case it is very strong since the race itself has a +1 to shadow subschool spell DCs and a number of GMs restrict usage of the shadow stencil set, which bestows another +1 to shadow DCs, to the wayang race also. Its favored class bonus even adds shadow spells from the Wizard list to the Witch's spells.
The Sylph race could also stand to mention Like the Wind (+5 foot speed) and Whispering Wind (+4 stealth) alternates.
I added these races too, broadly agreeing with you on all points.
I skipped Yaddithians purely because they're so rare/obscure. I try to minimize space spent on details that don't apply to 95% or more of campaigns. I accept that some prefer an encyclopedic approach, but I think the guide is quite long already.
Lastly, that is I believe I'm now caught up, I updated the Seducer archetype with an addendum. I handle it that way because I want to keep my initial take on the class as well as acknowledging it's utility as long as you can get beyond the sexual component.
I further make a call-out to the Feytouched Hexer because it gives us a charisma-based witch without the difficulties of the Seducer.
|
