Hello everyone! Question: According to Heroic Recovery rules in the Core Rulebook, someone can throw my level 1 character's body from 1500 feet high and after hitting the bottom and suffering 750 pts of damage, I can just spend all my hero points and stabilize to 0 hit points? So, my body is indestructable?
Likewise, my level 1 character can receive the fire breath from 8 Elder dragons around her (for instance), and suffer X pts of damage and do the same, just one hero point (if that's all I have) and puff, all is healed to 0 and stable? Am I wrong or the body of PCs is indestructible?
You can spend hero points to avoid death as described in the rules you mention, yes.
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There is no spoon.
There is no spoon.
What do you mean? XD
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You can spend hero points to avoid death as described in the rules you mention, yes.
That's not technically correct. Death by Massive Damage doesn't bother with dying conditions, so spending Hero Points when your Dying condition would increase isn't an option.
1) Since you spend your Hero points to do this cheating of death, you can only do it once until you somehow gain more Hero points.
2) There are other ways of dying other than just damage and going through the dying process. Massive damage and Death effects are the ones that I can think of.
3) When a player chooses to use their Hero points to escape death, it is a good idea for the GM (and maybe the player) to have some semi-reasonable way for the character to escape.
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Source
Core Rulebook pg. 460 2.0
Core Rulebook pg. 461 2.0 You die instantly if you ever take damage equal to or greater than double your maximum Hit Points in one blow.Source
As noted by previous posters:
Falling: Since you took 750 hp damage from that fall, you die instantly due to the massive damage rule and have no chance to use Heroic Recovery (you skip the 'dying' condition entirely and go straight to 'dead').Dragons: The dragons would be 8 separate damage instances, so you could use Heroic Recovery on just one of them (after which you have no remaining Hero Points): If it takes all eight to actually kill you, then this option will work, but if it's 7th (or earlier) breath that actually 'kills' you, the remaining dragons will put you back into 'dying' at the very least.
But a very high constitution level 20 barbarian, probably could survive the fall, by having over half the 750HP to avoid the instant death rule.
The barbarian has a chance on surviving the 8 breath weapons as well. Will need to do better than average on the saving throws though.
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The way heroic recovery works in-universe is that something lucky happens to prevent the death - it is worth noting in the case of fall damage that the world record in the real world for surviving a fall without a parachute is 10,160 metres (that's 33,330 feet), so it isn't as impossible to survive as you think.
A good GM will narrate how the character using the hero points hit trees on the way down or was rescued by divine intervention or whatever.
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The way heroic recovery works in-universe is that something lucky happens to prevent death - it is worth noting in the case of fall damage that the world record in the real world for surviving a fall without a parachute is 10,160 meters (that's 33,330 feet), so it isn't as impossible to survive as you think.
A good GM will narrate how the character using the hero points hit trees on the way down or was rescued by divine intervention or whatever.
Ya gotta love the physics of terminal velocity and there are instances of survival at lower heights with both static line and free-fall parachuting to include personally knowing a guy who jumped, had a complete chute malfunction at 800 AGL but was lucking enough to land in a muddy bog and live. Granted...he was severely messed up with dozens of fractures but made a full recovery and was able to walk, run and jump/parachute again.
The RAW is pretty fair on this subject and I want to recall a few scenarios expand on this when it is situationally dependent.
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The way heroic recovery works in-universe is that something lucky happens to prevent death - it is worth noting in the case of fall damage that the world record in the real world for surviving a fall without a parachute is 10,160 meters (that's 33,330 feet), so it isn't as impossible to survive as you think.
A good GM will narrate how the character using the hero points hit trees on the way down or was rescued by divine intervention or whatever.
Ya gotta love the physics of terminal velocity and there are instances of survival at lower heights with both static line and free-fall parachuting to include personally knowing a guy who jumped, had a complete chute malfunction at 800 AGL but was lucking enough to land in a muddy bog and live. Granted...he was severely messed up with dozens of fractures but made a full recovery and was able to walk, run and jump/parachute again.
The RAW is pretty fair on this subject and I want to recall a few scenarios expand on this when it is situationally dependent.
The most interesting thing is how terminal velocity changed between editions.
In PF1, you took 1D6 damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20D6 at 200 feet, falling at an undefined rate. In this game, you reach terminal velocity almost immediately, since falls are resolved immediately. Or rather, it was GM FIAT territory.
In PF2, you take damage equal to half the distance, a minimum of 5 feet 1 inch, and a maximum of 1,500 feet, ranging from 2 to 750. The rate of falling, in feet, is 150+(500 x Y-1), where Y is the number of rounds you spend falling. Meaning you would reach terminal velocity after approximately 16.75 seconds of straight falling.
Even more interesting is that terminal velocity is identical and equally pulling to all creatures. A dragon falling from 1,500+ feet reaches terminal velocity at the same rate and time a humanoid does, even though they are vastly different in weight.
The way heroic recovery works in-universe is that something lucky happens to prevent death - it is worth noting in the case of fall damage that the world record in the real world for surviving a fall without a parachute is 10,160 meters (that's 33,330 feet), so it isn't as impossible to survive as you think.
A good GM will narrate how the character using the hero points hit trees on the way down or was rescued by divine intervention or whatever.
Ya gotta love the physics of terminal velocity and there are instances of survival at lower heights with both static line and free-fall parachuting to include personally knowing a guy who jumped, had a complete chute malfunction at 800 AGL but was lucking enough to land in a muddy bog and live. Granted...he was severely messed up with dozens of fractures but made a full recovery and was able to walk, run and jump/parachute again.
The RAW is pretty fair on this subject and I want to recall a few scenarios expand on this when it is situationally dependent.
The most interesting thing is how terminal velocity changed between editions.
In PF1, you took 1D6 damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20D6 at 200 feet, falling at an undefined rate. In this game, you reach terminal velocity almost immediately, since falls are resolved immediately. Or rather, it was GM FIAT territory.
In PF2, you take damage equal to half the distance, a minimum of 5 feet 1 inch, and a maximum of 1,500 feet, ranging from 2 to 750. The rate of falling, in feet, is 150+(500 x Y-1), where Y is the number of rounds you spend falling. Meaning you would reach terminal velocity after approximately 16.75 seconds of straight falling.
Even more interesting is that terminal velocity is identical and equally pulling to all creatures. A dragon falling from 1,500+ feet reaches terminal velocity at the same rate and time a humanoid does, even though they are vastly different in weight.
So, is the character's body still there after the fall or not? That's the question, not if it dies or not. Is the body destroyed?
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That isn't a question that has a rules answer. The rules say how much damage it takes to kill you instantly so that hero points can't save you. They don’t address an amount of damage counting as the body being destroyed. Outside of a specific effect like Disintegrate addressing the case explicitly, that's in the GM's court.
Thank you!
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A dragon falling from 1,500+ feet reaches terminal velocity at the same rate and time a humanoid does, even though they are vastly different in weight.
The difference in weight alone wouldn't make a difference. Gravity accelerates everything at the same rate. The difference in terminal velocity and how quickly something reaches it depends on its presented surface area in combination with its weight.
But now I am just being pedantic again.
Don't try and use real-world physics to guide game mechanics. It usually doesn't end well.
A dragon falling from 1,500+ feet reaches terminal velocity at the same rate and time a humanoid does, even though they are vastly different in weight.The difference in weight alone wouldn't make a difference. Gravity accelerates everything at the same rate. The difference in terminal velocity and how quickly something reaches it depends on its presented surface area in combination with its weight.
But now I am just being pedantic again.
Don't try and use real-world physics to guide game mechanics. It usually doesn't end well.
It wouldn't be too hard.
Size large or greater take double damage from falling
Size small or smaller creatures take half damage from falling.
Size tiny creatures can make a DC15 reflex save. If they succeed they take no damage from falling.
The height that creatures can jump is not affected by their size. Except that size huge or greater creatures can't leap or jump. They fall prone and suffer 6d6 bludgeoning damage if they try.
Pseudo real world. Just a few minutes to write. Sorry home brew I know...
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If you, the player, strongly believe "there is no justification I will accept for my character surviving this" the option is there to not spend the hero points.
Don't try and use real-world physics to guide game mechanics. It usually doesn't end well.It wouldn't be too hard.
Size large or greater take double damage from falling
Size small or smaller creatures take half damage from falling.
Size tiny creatures can make a DC15 reflex save. If they succeed they take no damage from falling.The height that creatures can jump is not affected by their size. Except that size huge or greater creatures can't leap or jump. They fall prone and suffer 6d6 bludgeoning damage if they try.
Pseudo real world. Just a few minutes to write. Sorry home brew I know...
I'm confused. Are you saying that these houserules are actually based on physics?
Because nowhere in there did you ever mention mass, define the acceleration of the world, or bring the creatures STR score into it (which would determine how much force they could produce when jumping or landing).
Don't try and use real-world physics to guide game mechanics. It usually doesn't end well.It wouldn't be too hard.
Size large or greater take double damage from falling
Size small or smaller creatures take half damage from falling.
Size tiny creatures can make a DC15 reflex save. If they succeed they take no damage from falling.The height that creatures can jump is not affected by their size. Except that size huge or greater creatures can't leap or jump. They fall prone and suffer 6d6 bludgeoning damage if they try.
Pseudo real world. Just a few minutes to write. Sorry home brew I know...
I'm confused. Are you saying that these houserules are actually based on physics?
Of course but then again the base rule is too. If you fall further you take more damage. Distance is a good approximation to start with. It is well established in real world physics. For sure it is a major simplification, but it is good enough for most.
I just expanded it based on the rough mass ie size of the falling object. This is again well established in physics. The mass ratio to surface area affects the falling speed, but larger objects just hit harder anyway. You can drop a mouse from a plane and it will be OK, humans struggle at only a couple of meters, an elephant won't jump at all. Yes it is based on physics.
If you were talking about the Strength of falling person doing a counter jump in a fall it has less than a potential 2% reduction in speed. It is irrelevant.
It is also irrelevant compared to size when it comes to jumping. It just doesn't matter, past a certain size you just can't be strong enough to make a difference. Strength is related to the dimension squared, but Damage is related to mass which is dimension cubed. At a certain point it just becomes impossible. But it still factors into athletics to jump with these house rules anyway. Not that you need to do anything extra in PF2 anyway as size has no direct impact on Strength.
Yeah I know: magic affects all this. Its an approximation anyway.
Because nowhere in there did you ever mention mass, define the acceleration of the world, or bring the creatures STR score into it (which would determine how much force they could produce when jumping or landing).
Who is going to do that in a game. You'd have to integrate hitpoints, which have a luck component, into real world physics. Follow the basic shape of the result. That is good enough.
A dragon falling from 1,500+ feet reaches terminal velocity at the same rate and time a humanoid does, even though they are vastly different in weight.The difference in weight alone wouldn't make a difference. Gravity accelerates everything at the same rate. The difference in terminal velocity and how quickly something reaches it depends on its presented surface area in combination with its weight.
But now I am just being pedantic again.
Don't try and use real-world physics to guide game mechanics. It usually doesn't end well.
It wouldn't be too hard.
Size large or greater take double damage from falling
Size small or smaller creatures take half damage from falling.
Size tiny creatures can make a DC15 reflex save. If they succeed they take no damage from falling.The height that creatures can jump is not affected by their size. Except that size huge or greater creatures can't leap or jump. They fall prone and suffer 6d6 bludgeoning damage if they try.
Pseudo real world. Just a few minutes to write. Sorry home brew I know...
If you're actually simulating real life to at least some degree, then after you get past a certain point the difference between a larger creature and a smaller one won't really be noticed until you reach pretty high speeds since the main issue is drag, which is pretty miniscule on human sized creatures falling short-medium distances.
Perhaps it would make more sense to have the different size categories have a different maximum damage that they can take from falling from different heights.
For tiny and smaller, though, this would probably come into play really quickly, so there I would think maybe still follow whatever max damage formula you have, but also have them take half damage or something. Idk, just an interesting thought experiment. I have no plans of adding complexity to the falling mechanics, especially given how many ways there are to circumvent it. It just feels like a bit of a non-issue to me, and is probably why the core rules are so simple.
main issue is drag
Which is mostly related to surface area, ie primarily size hence the suggestion.
There are a lot of articles out there on it. Some disagreement at the margins. Most are like this Surviving a fall . Or this. But there is some disagreement. Primarily these days there is not enough data for a good empirical study and most people consider experimental approaches unethical.
Yes for most people the simple rules we have already are enough. Not that this is really that much more complex.
Because nowhere in there did you ever mention mass, define the acceleration of the world, or bring the creatures STR score into it (which would determine how much force they could produce when jumping or landing).Who is going to do that in a game. You'd have to integrate hitpoints, which have a luck component, into real world physics. Follow the basic shape of the result. That is good enough.
Ah, OK. So this is a difference in terms and words used.
Because this attempt to create a game rule set that isn't just a crude approximation of real physics, but is instead more of a physics simulation is exactly what I am meaning. I have seen people try that before.
Yeah, stick with the approximation. Houserule a slightly better approximation if you desire.
main issue is dragWhich is mostly related to surface area, ie primarily size hence the suggestion.
Yes, but it's also related to your current velocity (or more accurately velocity squared), hence why I was talking about maximum damage instead of just flat-out multiplying damage. If you're travelling 1/10 of terminal velocity, then drag is counteracting about 1% of your acceleration and you'll keep falling at a very similar rate to something bigger than you that isn't as affected by drag. Once you get to half of your terminal velocity it's counteracting 25% of your acceleration, which is notable for sure, but at that point you're going pretty darn fast. So for things the size of people we're often talking more about an increase in terminal velocity, and thus maximum damage, then we are about more damage at low heights / speeds. Once you get small enough that changes, though. For example, animals roughly the size of a mouse, small squirrel, etc. (and apparently even some cats) can survive falling from any height because of just how much and how quickly drag catches up with gravity.
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That isn't a question that has a rules answer. The rules say how much damage it takes to kill you instantly so that hero points can't save you. They don’t address an amount of damage counting as the body being destroyed. Outside of a specific effect like Disintegrate addressing the case explicitly, that's in the GM's court.
Speaking from sadly real personal experience I can tell you that the body remains pretty much intact after impact even at altitudes at 10,000ft AGL with rig and equipment. Since I don't see a RAW, I recommend going with what happens in reality. Your real challenge, in reality, would not be is the body destroyed on impact(yes you do bounce at least once) but in attempting to locate the body and accounting for winds, lateral drift, and time it takes to locate and find the body(making sure critters or something doesn't eat it).