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So when you save on a dragon's breath, you take half damage. How about if you have Protection From Energy (of the dragon's breath)?
Say you cast it at 10th level: 120 points. So if you save against a 150 point breath weapon; do only 75 points come off the spell?
I always rule that the full damage against the spell is not reduced by a save.
Any thoughts?
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So if a Dragon does a breath weapon attack that deals 150 damage, and you save (reducing it to 75 damage) then you've only taken 75 damage, and 75 points of protection are lost.
So ... you're doing it wrong I guess, sorry =P
I always rule that the full damage against the spell is not reduced by a save.
So basically OP, if you have PfE up you initially automatically fail your saving throw? In the example, 150 dam goes against 120 PfE (no save allowed). Then what happens to the remaining 30? I assume they get a save at this point, save for 30/15.
The spell only takes 75 dam if they save.
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So if we assume saves DO work with PFE, breath weapons are useless against decently specced mid-level party.
Number one: breath weapons don't really do 150 pts of damage on average. It's usually a third to half of that. So a dragon does say 50 to 75 points on a decent breathing. So we lose half to two thirds of the protection. But wait, a smartly built party (and my players always build their party's smartly); makes their saves and only takes 25 to 32 points of damage. So the protection will last 3 to 4 more breath attempts.
Number two: breath weapon cool downs. 1 to 4 rounds. How long do your fights last in your games? Usually 3 to 7 rounds in mine, if I use max hp. That means maybe 3 breath attempts.
Number three: they also use resist energy (of course). So on the off chance I got through the protection; they are still insulated from most of the damage.
Number four: rogues. Evasion. Nuff said.
So I think my way at least gives the breath weapon a shot at doing a little damage. Dragons are supposed to be scary.
I wasn't looking for someone to tell me I was wrong. A DM can run their game any way they want; players have the ultimate veto after all. I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way.
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So your players are under resist energy and protection from energy all the time? That's a lot of spell slots for 10 min/level spells. A party of four 10th level characters will need to use 8 spell slots to have that protection for less than 2 hours. Not to mention they have to be under the right type of protection. Fire protection won't do any good against a white dragon.
Protection from Energy and Resist Energy only work against one energy type. If your players are using 3-4 spells on PfE and 3-4 on RE then your breath weapon has done it's job.
Dragons are smart, if the PCs are protected then don't keep using the breath weapon. Dragons are still scary without it.
Most Dragons have their own magic, so use it. If your players are protected against Fire then use Cold spells.
Also, Dragons are regal creatures, use minions.
I wasn't looking for someone to tell me I was wrong.
Yeah I didn't mean that to sound so demeaning, sorry.
The important thing is not to invalidate the choices your players make. If your party puts this spell on a Rogue and they lose the protection even though they pass every save, then your change IS invalidating a choice.
If your players are fine with it then go for it. It's only one spell, so it's not a huge deal, as long as everyone knows how it works in advance.
So back in 3.5 I ran an encounter at Gencon using the Draconomicon for building the dragons. The party could pre-buff. KnNowing they were going against a Red Dragon they cast Protection from Energy Fire and Resist Energy Fire.
Now normally this would pretty much negate the dragons Fire breath but, the dragons had INT 26+ and had an ability they could use to change the element for their breath weapon. You would think that the dragon would need to breathe fire, find out it was negated, then switch later. However, the only way a GM can adequately portray a Dragon with INT 26 is to cheat, and just use the ability first off and use a different element to for the dragon's breath.
That being said, the general rule is Saves first, then you apply the protections in order of choice.
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Yeah, I probably should have posted this is a different subforum. No worries.
But a little more information. This is book 3 of Giantslayer, and the party had plenty of foreshadowing that a large red dragon was in the house. And after killing the BBEG, they knew the dragon was next. So they camped out before the fight and were suitably prepped.
I feel like the dragon should be even more suitably prepared, then.
Even without "metabreath" feat-nonsense, dragons are crazy smart and crazy powerful.
Why would a red dragon know the spell Delayed Blast Fireball when they could pick up Chain Lightning or Cone of Cold?
Better yet, forget dealing damage with spells; a dragon should do just fine in melee. Heal is a good spell. Teleport. I've found Fly to be a hilariously effective spell for dragons who's opponents have banked on the dragon's terrible maneuverability.
All the fog spells, especially the ones that deal damage the dragon is immune to, because Blindsight.
Then, of course, there's Antimagic Field.
And that's just spell selection. Then there's feats and items, traps/environmental hazards, minions...
There are just so, so many ways to make a dragon a terrifying, deadly foe that don't involve changing some fundamental rules to make player's smart choices less smart. Reward that behavior. And then make things hard for them in other ways.
As MrCharisma said, spells are resources, and by making the party burn those spell slots... the dragon has already done its job.
I think people put WAY too much stock into breath weapons. I doubt many dragons are dumb enough to evolve tactics that strictly rely on their breath weapon. And I truly believe that Flyby Attack is the extent of the investment and strategy using breath weapons.
Literally everything else is going to be dedicated to mitigating weaknesses, survivability/escape, hiding/protecting its lair/hoard, and divinations/scrying/spies to learn about possible threats... threats like the party.
The dragon should expect, dare even assume, that the party will have those spells actively protecting them. And it will use its mighty caster level to Dispel such spells before roasting them. Now you burned the spell slot to pre-buff, AND still took the full effect of the breath weapon... ha ha, that's like wasting the same spell, twice. Lol.
This sounds like p!ss-poor dragon play, no fault of any spell or breath weapon... play a smarter dragon, and all will be fine.
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Player One: "What? The Green Dragon in the top hat just used Lightning as a breath weapon? …" puzzlement...
GM: "You wondering about my dragon? Make a Will Save...."
Player Two: "Didn't that treasure map say there was a Hat of Disguise in the Dragon's Lair? Oh, cra..., maybe we shouldn't have bought all those Resist Acid potions... "
Player Three: "Yeah - I kind of wondered about a Green Dragon's lair being out here in the Big Sandy Desert...
That being said, the general rule is Saves first, then you apply the protections in order of choice.
Actually the rules for interaction between protection and resistance are quite clear… protection overrides resistance every time… so the order is, Saves first, then Protection From Energy, and finally if any damage is left over resistances apply to THAT damage…
If your PC's took the time to gain the knowledge that there was a dragon, and the color/element of that dragon, and then prepared spells/gear/items specifically to deal with this, then I don't know why a GM would punish this by saying the Dragon does full damage to the PfE before Saves are considered.
If you care to follow the proper rules in the future, Chell Raighn, MrCharisma, and everyone else is correct in the order precedence. It goes Saves first, PfE, then Resistances (if PfE is expended) = total fire dmg dealt.
Your table, your rules though. Personally, I wouldn't punish this at all, but rather would reward it for Batman Prep'ing the encounter properly. And like others have said as well, Dragons are scary enough as it is despite their breath weapon. And even if you DO use the proper order precedence, PfE is only going to last til mid-way through the second breath attack even if they save on both breaths.
If you really want to get scary with the breath weapon, use this strat: When your PC's enter the dragon's room, they see the dragon and begin to fan out so they can't all get hit with the breath attack at once. This dragon they see is actually an Illusion, and they won't know that until they interact with it. The real dragon is actually Invisible but he's stealthing up in the ceiling with Fly spell so you don't hear the wingbeats. He's waiting for them to "fan out" per the position of the illusion. Once they've moved themselves into a "fanned out" position per where the Illusion Dragon is positioned but now they're all within the cone effect range of the breath from the real Invisible Dragon's position is. Queue the Surprise Round BBQ with Melt Stone right underneath them, PfE is either gone or half-gone.
Melt Stone (Su)
An ancient red dragon can use its breath weapon to melt rock at a range of 100 feet, affecting a 50-foot-radius area. The area becomes lava to a depth of 1 foot. Any creature in contact with the lava takes 20d6 points of fire damage on the first round, 10d6 on the second, and none thereafter as the lava hardens and cools. If used on a wall or ceiling, treat this ability as an avalanche that deals fire damage.
Don't be afraid to Quicken Telekinesis to move someone into the Cone effect as a Swift and then use Standard to Breath Attack either. Any time you're allowed to make a Free action, you can take a swift, so you can Swift + Standard in a Surprise Round.
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If your PC's took the time to gain the knowledge that there was a dragon, and the color/element of that dragon, and then prepared spells/gear/items specifically to deal with this, then I don't know why a GM would punish this by saying the Dragon does full damage to the PfE before Saves are considered.
If you care to follow the proper rules in the future, Chell Raighn, MrCharisma, and everyone else is correct in the order precedence. It goes Saves first, PfE, then Resistances (if PfE is expended) = total fire dmg dealt.
Your table, your rules though. Personally, I wouldn't punish this at all, but rather would reward it for Batman Prep'ing the encounter properly. And like others have said as well, Dragons are scary enough as it is despite their breath weapon. And even if you DO use the proper order precedence, PfE is only going to last til mid-way through the second breath attack even if they save on both breaths.
If you really want to get scary with the breath weapon, use this strat: When your PC's enter the dragon's room, they see the dragon and begin to fan out so they can't all get hit with the breath attack at once. This dragon they see is actually an Illusion, and they won't know that until they interact with it. The real dragon is actually Invisible but he's stealthing up in the ceiling with Fly spell so you don't hear the wingbeats. He's waiting for them to "fan out" per the position of the illusion. Once they've moved themselves into a "fanned out" position per where the Illusion Dragon is positioned but now they're all within the cone effect range of the breath from the real Invisible Dragon's position is. Queue the Surprise Round BBQ with Melt Stone right underneath them, PfE is either gone or half-gone.
...Melt Stone (Su)
An ancient red dragon can use its breath weapon to melt rock at a range of 100 feet, affecting a 50-foot-radius area. The area becomes lava to a depth of 1 foot. Any creature in contact with the lava takes 20d6
I'm not trying to punish the players; I just want the dragon to be a reasonable threat. When you think of dragons, the breath weapon is their Apex ability.
And more about my group; their power level is high (they are smart and well built). And until recently, there were 6 of them. Now there is 5. But the cleric is rocking a 38 AC, the rogue has a 30ish AC, and the witch casts Enervation with a DC of 28. Also the witch has a nasty hex that causes an attacker to take half the damage they deal.
This group is walking through encounters like they're nothing. They don't need me to go easy on them...
Give the dragon Improved Iron Will to help against the Retribution Hex.
Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Spell Resistance... the Ravener template... can help against Enervation.
You may not be *trying* to punish your players, but making their choices not matter/matter less is doing exactly that, regardless of your intention.
And who said anything about taking it easy on your players? Make it hard! Make it super hard!
But there are ways to do that without invalidating their class abilities or tactical choices. See above.
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I think you guys have it wrong. First you would take off the damage from resist or protection from energy of because the two do not stack. so if at max you took off 120 points of the 150 points you would take 30 points if you failed your reflex save and 15 points if you made your save. Say a rogue with evasion made his save he would take 75 points of damage and that would all be dissipated by the 120 points of protection from energy fire leaving the rogue 45 points of fire protection for the dragons next breath weapon attack. If a 10th level rogue with improved evasion made his save he would take no damage and have 120 points of Protection from energy for the dragons next breath weapon attack.
DM Chucky has already said that what he wrote in his first post is what he wants to do INSTEAD of the normal rules, and wanted our opinions on his ideas. He's aware that the save for half SHOULD happen first.
Having said that, you seem to have misunderstood how Evasion works.
If a character with Evasion makes a Reflex save against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she takes none.
If a character with Improved Evasion fails a Reflex save against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she still only takes half.
I'm not trying to punish the players; I just want the dragon to be a reasonable threat. When you think of dragons, the breath weapon is their Apex ability.
And more about my group; their power level is high (they are smart and well built). And until recently, there were 6 of them. Now there is 5. But the cleric is rocking a 38 AC, the rogue has a 30ish AC, and the witch casts Enervation with a DC of 28. Also the witch has a nasty hex that causes an attacker to take half the damage they deal.
This group is walking through encounters like they're nothing. They don't need me to go easy on them...
Anti-magic Field is the Dragon's Apex ability if we're being honest. That's the "it's round 5 and I'm somehow losing" spell that you cast, because Dragons in an AMF are still Dragons, your PC's are nothing without their spells and gear. AMF on dragons extends 10ft from their entire space that they occupy, so if they're colossal (long) sized, that's 6x6 squares + 10ft on all sides. If you don't want to AMF and want to be exceptionally ruthless, then you can teleport out and collapse the cave on them with Melt Stone.
Enervation doesn't have a DC, it's a ranged touch attack. And it's affected by SR, so Dragons have 11 + CR as natural Spell Resistance. But the dragon has enough HD to survive it, so it's not that bad.
Also, there is no reason why the dragon couldn't cast Displacement and [i[]Haste[/i] on himself as the PC's are nervously entering the room. They last 1 round/level after all.
For all other spells, start the fight with Contingency "Cast Greater Dispel Magic to Counterspell the first spell I'm targeted with" and also have Spell Turning up to reflect 1d4+6 spell levels back at the caster.
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So if we assume saves DO work with PFE, breath weapons are useless against decently specced mid-level party.
Number one: breath weapons don't really do 150 pts of damage on average. It's usually a third to half of that. So a dragon does say 50 to 75 points on a decent breathing. So we lose half to two thirds of the protection. But wait, a smartly built party (and my players always build their party's smartly); makes their saves and only takes 25 to 32 points of damage. So the protection will last 3 to 4 more breath attempts.
Number two: breath weapon cool downs. 1 to 4 rounds. How long do your fights last in your games? Usually 3 to 7 rounds in mine, if I use max hp. That means maybe 3 breath attempts.
Number three: they also use resist energy (of course). So on the off chance I got through the protection; they are still insulated from most of the damage.
Number four: rogues. Evasion. Nuff said.
So I think my way at least gives the breath weapon a shot at doing a little damage. Dragons are supposed to be scary.
I wasn't looking for someone to tell me I was wrong. A DM can run their game any way they want; players have the ultimate veto after all. I just wondered if anyone else felt the same way.
Protection from energy overlaps (and does not stack with) resist energy. If a character is warded by protection from energy and resist energy, the protection spell absorbs damage until its power is exhausted.
Protection from energy is depleted by every attack of the right energy (after the effect of the save). If some damage bypass Protection from energy, Resist energy will stop the damage only if it was less or equal than what Resist energy would have blocked without the effect of Protection from energy.
Yeah there are plenty of ways to make Dragons scary.
Take THIS DRAGON for example.
The dragon starts out invisible
It waits patiently until it's foe has used many of their high level spells before engaging.
It comes out pre-buffed , and it does use it's breath attack.
When the enemy uses magic against the dragon it simply turns the magic off with Anti Magic Field.
It then proceeds to chase down the squishy caster using it's superior mobility and Annihilate the caster in melee.
Finally, this Dragon chooses to leave it's prey behind by teleporting away. This one has it's reasons for doing so, but another good reason to teleport might be "I'm losing this fight".
After the Wizard receives a sognificant boost to their powers, the fight picks up again HERE
The Dragon once again tries Anti-Magic field and a breath attack, but when they don't work as well as they did previously the Dragon tries other magics and finally simply eats their opponent.
At this point we have to assume the Wizard passeed quite a difficult Concentration check, casting a 9th level spell while taking continuous damage, so if the Wizard didn't have Plot Armour the Dragon probably would have won this .
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So we see the Dragon using patience to strike when their enemy is weak. Using their breath weapon and superior physiscal abilities to deal damage. Using their magic and superior mobility to counter enemy tactics. And finally using Teleport if things really go south.
Play your Dragon like the proud, ancient, intelligent being that it is. The breath weapon is only 1 tool in it's arsenal. Heck, if it really thinks the PCs might be a threat it could make a deal with them.
Yeah there are plenty of ways to make Dragons scary.
Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth there are 2 (or 3, or whole flock).
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Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth it is a 20th level monk with Dragon Style.Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth there are 2 (or 3, or whole flock).Yeah there are plenty of ways to make Dragons scary.
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Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth it is a Kobold Dragon Yapper Bard.Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth it is a 20th level monk with Dragon Style.Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth there are 2 (or 3, or whole flock).Yeah there are plenty of ways to make Dragons scary.
Party thinks they are going to fight a dragon. In truth it is a drake companion.