Would a feat to give cantrips to casters that currently lack them be OK?


Homebrew and House Rules


I am considering a homebrew feat that would add a small number of level-0 spells to the spell list of partial-caster classes that currently do not have them (plus the slots to prepare them in or spells known as required).

Bloodragers, paladins, and rangers are the classes potentially affected (I think they are the only ones), and each would get a customised list of thematically appropriate cantrips - not sure exactly what yet, as I would have to go through the lists in detail. But before I do that I wanted to sense check the general idea.

Obviously, how strong it is depends on the exact spells, but assuming they are useful and thematically appropriate but not too out there, does that sound reasonable? Too strong? Too weak?

_
glass.


The closest thing might be the Arcane Talent feat: Choose a cantrip, cast it thrice a day. Other similar feats are Psychic Adept (chosen psychic knack 3/d) and Nature Magic (constant know direction and another druid orison 1/d). These feats are a tad weak IMO, but can be useful or at least thematic.

Now two of these three feats have moderate requirements: Arcane Talent demands a certain race, Psychic Adept has Psychic Sensitivity as requirement. With Nature Magic you get away with a single rank in a skill. I'd count "bloodrager / paladin / ranger" as another moderate requirement.

And I'd stick with SLAs - no need to add level 0 spells if the player can use only very few of them.


Minor Magic is a Rogue Talent that hands out a single Sorcerer/Wizard cantrip for 3/day use. There's a 1 point Eidolon Evolution called Basic Magic that gives one of a select few cantrips as an SLA 1/day (frequency increases as the eidolon levels). There's also several races that can get an alternate race trait that allows the PC to cast a couple cantrips and a level 1 Druid spell in a specific terrain called Fey Magic.

In short, just handing out free unlimited cantrips/orisons is apparently MORE powerful than many class abilities or race traits. I'd say follow these abilities as a guideline and either have it be a single SLA they can cast 3/day or whatever, or it's cast like a 0-level spell but only in specific conditions, terrain, etc.


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I give those classes cantrips out of the box. They get (level + bonus)/4 rounded down, so for example a ranger with 12 Wisdom (+1) gets the first at 3rd level, the second at 7th, etc. You'll have to make the spell list yourself; some supposedly 1st level spells for those classes (eg create water, resistance, detect poison) are cantrips for other classes so should be for them too.

Sovereign Court

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Minor Magic is a Rogue Talent that hands out a single Sorcerer/Wizard cantrip for 3/day use. There's a 1 point Eidolon Evolution called Basic Magic that gives one of a select few cantrips as an SLA 1/day (frequency increases as the eidolon levels). There's also several races that can get an alternate race trait that allows the PC to cast a couple cantrips and a level 1 Druid spell in a specific terrain called Fey Magic.

In short, just handing out free unlimited cantrips/orisons is apparently MORE powerful than many class abilities or race traits. I'd say follow these abilities as a guideline and either have it be a single SLA they can cast 3/day or whatever, or it's cast like a 0-level spell but only in specific conditions, terrain, etc.

The Unchained version of "Minor Magic" is unlimited use for 1 cantrip.

Basic Psychic Magic for Unchained Eidolon is similarly at-will.
Cloak of the Hedge Wizard is only 2500 and gives 2 cantrips at-will and 2 1st level spells at 1/day. Prestidigitation and a specific cantrip based on school, but there are 8 options.

For comparison, a feat on an item it typically at least 8k. At least for an Ioun Stone.

Nosoi's Spirit Sense feat gets Detect Undead (normally 1st level) at will.

There are a handful of items that give specific cantrips at-will, Hand of the Mage(Mage Hand), Lantern of Auras(Detect Magic), etc.


I doubt it would break anything to give them cantrips. I think Mudfoot has a good idea.

Another idea would be to give them cantrips equal to their first level spells for a character 4 levels higher. So a Paladin/Ranger would get 1/day at 2nd level, 2/day at 5th level, 3/day at 9th level, 4/day at 13th level (and maybe 5/day at 17th level if you feel like it). That keeps them vaguely in keeping with the class's spell progression, and it hardly unbalances anything.

(Technically a Bloodrager would get them 1 pevel earlier, since Bloodragers don't start their spells with 0/day. You could bump the Paladins/Rangers 1 level too if you wanted to, I doubt it would change much.)


I suspect a lot of bloodragers etc. will want their feats for direct combat use especially at low levels. For all that Paizo was apparently worried about the possibilities, I don't see it breaking the game or making for power creep either. Giving free cantrips as per Mudfoot/Mr Cha is a little power creep but not a lot.

Sovereign Court

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Medium is a 4/9 caster, and it does have cantrips starting at 1st. It has the same spell progression(outside of cantrips) as Bloodrager, and Paladin/Ranger are close in x/day but are prepared casters. In general, prepared 4/9s have worse progression then spontaneous 4/9s, which always seemed weird to me.

Basically, just give them all the Medium cantrip progression and call it good. Have Bloodrager pull from Sorcerer cantrips, Paladin pull from Cleric, and Ranger pull from Druid (or Hunter, since it's the same thing).


well the fact that a lightbringer elf (or any other race with unlimited racial sla, can also be a teifling with death sight sla) can cast any 0 level spell all day long as long as a humanoid wish for it (including him) if he's adopted by a Geniekin (trait adopted > minor wish craft).
id say for a feat it shouldn't be to strong to allow a few cantrips.


I think that compared to what other feats offer, it would be outrageous to allow a single feat to open up at-will cantrips.

However, I am in the process of combining all the 4/9 spell lists into one 4th-level caster list that will be available to all 4/9 casting classes... it includes Knacks.

Going off of the Ranger's spells per day, and the Medium's spells known progression. Sadly, there is only the Medium's list to use for cantrips/orisons... no other 4/9 caster offers them to contribute to the combined list.

Child of War gets a Wizard cantrip at 2,6,12,18... and it is probably worth allowing 4/9 casters to choose a 0-level spell from the Wizard list at those levels for any and all 4/9 casters.

There are obviously spells that are unique to the classes they came from, and they will remain unique to those classes... Instant Enemy is not suddenly available to Antipaladins, or whatever. I have left some of the super nature spells only for Rangers, there are spells that are still only available to the list they originated from.

However, the 90% bulk of the lists are being combined for all 4/9 casters to use in my games going forward...


It would be simple to give them a cantrip slot, and a cantrip known, per level up till they can cast their first level spell. It should not cost them a feat.


There is a 2RP racial trait called Fey Magic that gives 3 0-level spells and 1 1st-lvl spell as 1/day SLA's in a favored terrain, AND also gives you two skills as class skills. If you're going to charge a feat, you should make it something like this except usable in all terrains. Otherwise, you can just give them +2RP so they can take this Fey Magic alt racial and call it good.

Edit: I quoted it for reference.

Fey Magic wrote:

Fey Magic (2 RP): The character has a mystic connection to one terrain type, selected from the ranger’s favored terrain list. The character selects three 0-level druid spells and one 1st-level druid spell. If the character has a Charisma score of 11 or higher, when in the selected terrain, she gains these spells as spell-like abilities that can be cast once per day. The caster level for these effects is equal to the user’s character level. The DC for the spell-like abilities is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the user’s Charisma modifier. These spells are treated as being from a fey source for the purposes of the druid’s resist nature’s lure class feature and similar abilities. In addition, select two of the following skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, or Use Magic Device. The selected skills are always class skills for the character. Lastly, the human also gains low-light vision. This trait replaces skilled.


Sorry for the delayed response. It looks like half the posters think that giving them for free would be no big deal, but if not doing that they would be a bit too much for a single feat. Paradoxically, I kinda think I agree with both camps.

Not sure what to do with that!

_
glass.


Just give them cantrips/orisons, and be done with it.

There is no way a single feat that grants cantrips would ever be balanced against other feats that already exist... so don't even try it. Because then you might as well make custom feats for all sorts of stuff you want.

Or, just give all spellcasters access to those spells of the absolutely lowest level because they are already capable of casting higher level spells...


I don't know if Acid Splash is on the list of approved Cantrips for any of the OP's classes, but just wanted to note something. Using this Cantrip the PC can deal 1d3 Acid at will. Minor, until you consider extras. For 1 GP the PC can use 2 Brimstone/Sulfur Alchemical Reagent doses to add +1 damage to the Cantrip. There is no action for this; it simply consumes the doses as part of the casting. Add in another 10 GP as a one-time payment for an Acid Flask that then can be used as a Focus per the Alchemical Power Component rules for +1 damage as well.

So for a pittance the PC now has 1d3 +2 damage at will, so long as they've got both a Move and Standard action. Again, this doesn't feel like much but also please note that Point Blank Shot works with this Cantrip as well as Arcane Strike. If the PC then dips into a class with Sneak Attack or Precision damage, this can also be added to the Cantrip. This is an at will ranged attack that can be deadly effective even up to CR 3 monsters, pairs with Precision damage, and even without costly material components or foci means this PC is never without some kind of attack.

Other, more minor things: Light at will means this PC will never suffer mundane darkness; Open/Close or Mage Hand are IMMENSELY useful in dungeon settings; Spark to light a fire ANYWHERE.

If you are running a laid back or high fantasy game such that mundane things like ambient temperature, mundane darkness, thirst and such aren't going to be big deals, even at level 1, then these Cantrips are virtually inconsequential. On the other hand if you're running completely by RAW these Cantrips all have value for many low levels and some can be used as the basis for an entire build.

So... I guess that's maybe one reason for the "two camps" on this. Bottom line, it depends on what game you run. I've had a player creatively use the Prestidigitation and Ghost Sound Cantrips, as well as ranks in Bluff, to shut down a really dangerous combat at level 1. On the other hand I have a player in my megadungeon campaign literally complain he has no way of opening a chest from across a room at level 5. Another thing to think about is player ability. If they will get some mileage out of having these Cantrips, cool and maybe hand them out with a Feat or a Trait. Alternately if you don't think they'll use them for more than 1 level just give 'em away, who cares?

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