I view the Hunting Lore as a theoretical boost to the Survival practical bent in this case.
Entering a new area, you could use Hunting Lore to know that it's likely that you would find these types of animals in the area, that the best place to start hunting for them would be over yonder vale, and that there are predators of this type that you should look out for.
Survival could then be used to track, hunt, and catch that prey while avoiding the said predators, probably with a circumstance bonus to the rolls because of the Hunting Lore usage.
Lores are about knowledge that you might then apply to a practical skill.
Hunting Lore and Survival would be fairly similar.
Hunting Lore would be specific to tracking and hunting animals. Maybe could stretch to tracking other things like fleeing brigands, but I probably wouldn't give it the lower DC typical for using a Lore skill at that point.
You couldn't use Hunting Lore for things like subsisting in the wilderness, or creating a shelter. Those would be things that need the Survival skill. And would only be a couple of examples of such things. The Lore skills shouldn't entirely replace any of the other skills.
There would be other things that you could do with Hunting Lore though. Things that would also be part of being a hunter as a career. Like finding markets for the hunted animals, or preserving the harvested animals long enough to reach those markets in good shape. Knowing the local laws and regulations needed to be seen as a legitimate hunter rather than a poacher. Things like that. Probably not something that would come up during a game - that would all be combined together into the Earn Income roll, but if you are looking for role-play hooks, that would be something to play with.
Adding to the original question, would Desert Lore (or Forest Lore, Mountain Lore etc.) offer anything over Survival, and if yes, what?
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Lore is always supposed to be narrower than a regular skill. So hunting lore for example wouldn't help you deal with natural hazards, find berries and tubers that you can eat, or how to find shelter from rough weather.
However, when the lore is applicable, then it can offer a lower DC. If the check is really about hunting, then Hunting Lore would be more specific and better than Survival.
But finding a Lore that's as broad and good as another skill is really not supposed to be possible.
I would count Hunting Lore mainly as a narrower field of Nature recall knowledges. So you would have it easy to identify animals and beasts for example. Or use it to know stuff about environments those creatures live in. Like remembering to bring snowshoes when hunting the Yeti.
But since there is a bit of overlap with Survival, I would allow it for knowledge based Survival checks. I might allow to roll Hunting Lore instead of Survival on Survey Wildlife for example. I'd not allow it to FIND Tracks (that's Survival) but to identify the found tracks.
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Adding to the original question, would Desert Lore (or Forest Lore, Mountain Lore etc.) offer anything over Survival, and if yes, what?
Not much from a practical point of view.
But, for example, I'd allow Desert Lore to know something about how a desert forms and how it grows over time, ways to stop an area from becoming a desert, etc (some of which would otherwise be covered by Nature)
Adding to the original question, would Desert Lore (or Forest Lore, Mountain Lore etc.) offer anything over Survival, and if yes, what?
I would see the various terrain lore as being useful for finding shelter or avoiding natural hazards.
So desert lore would help with finding locations of shelter, avoiding dangerous plants or animals, or detecting that those clouds over there indicate an incoming sand storm.
It wouldn't be fully useful with subsisting in the desert, hunting animals or tracking enemies in the desert, navigating to a particular destination, or other such things that would be normally done using Survival. I would probably let you use the Lore skill for it, but it would be at the same DC as for Survival as a minimum. Possibly higher.
I can't think of any uses for Hunting Lore (other than Earn Income) that wouldn't be covered by Survival or Nature, and a Hunter probably has both of those skills. It would let you use your intelligence instead of wisdom, but that's unlikely to be an advantage for a nature class. In fact, your wisdom will probably be higher and would offset the lower DCs.
Generally one shouldn't expect generic Lores like this to be very useful in adventuring. Lores can be really really good if you can figure out your campaign will focus on and then take the Additional Lore feat. [Insert villainous organization here] Lore is my favorite.
Adding to the original question, would Desert Lore (or Forest Lore, Mountain Lore etc.) offer anything over Survival, and if yes, what?
Maybe it would allow you to do recall checks on common, often mundane desert creatures, such as scorpions. And I guess giant scorpions too.
Actually, I think that might count as mundane in a world like this. As much as a 20 foot python is mundane in the real world.
I think I would even allow using desert lore for a medicine check to deal with scorpion poison. Since that is a very "desert" problem.
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There would be other things that you could do with Hunting Lore though. Things that would also be part of being a hunter as a career. Like finding markets for the hunted animals, or preserving the harvested animals long enough to reach those markets in good shape. Knowing the local laws and regulations needed to be seen as a legitimate hunter rather than a poacher. Things like that.
This.
For that reason, I tend to think of Lores as more "vertically integrated" than other skills.
I'd allow Hunting Lore to cover a lot of stuff covered by other skills - Survival, Nature, even Crafting, Stealth, Thievery, Athletics, and Deception - but only in so far as they relate to hunting. So yes to substituting Hunting Lore for Deception when putting on woods-themed camoflauge as a disguise, no to substituting Hunting Lore for Deception when lying to a king. Yes to Hunting Lore for disabling a snare in the woods, no to Hunting Lore for disabling a trap in a dungeon.
I can't think of any uses for Hunting Lore (other than Earn Income) that wouldn't be covered by Survival or Nature, and a Hunter probably has both of those skills. It would let you use your intelligence instead of wisdom, but that's unlikely to be an advantage for a nature class.
That is actually what I use to decide what a Lore skill should be able to be used for. Sure, Hunting Lore has a lot of overlap with Survival and Nature. Someone who is trained in Survival could probably use it to successfully hunt some animal or other during downtime.
But the idea is that a character without either Survival or Nature should still be able to successfully do all the things related to hunting. So the parts of Survival or Nature that are relevant to hunting should also be covered by Hunting Lore. Along with other things like Society (local laws), Stealth (sneaking up on a hunt target), or Crafting (building a deer blind or something like that). But it shouldn't cover other things that these general skills cover when it is not relevant to the career.
So even if you are not earning income during downtime, you should still be able to do those Lore tasks separately. Not entirely sure when it would come up in an encounter. But that is the rule of thumb that I use.
I can't think of any uses for Hunting Lore (other than Earn Income) that wouldn't be covered by Survival or Nature, and a Hunter probably has both of those skills. It would let you use your intelligence instead of wisdom, but that's unlikely to be an advantage for a nature class.That is actually what I use to decide what a Lore skill should be able to be used for. Sure, Hunting Lore has a lot of overlap with Survival and Nature. Someone who is trained in Survival could probably use it to successfully hunt some animal or other during downtime.
But the idea is that a character without either Survival or Nature should still be able to successfully do all the things related to hunting. So the parts of Survival or Nature that are relevant to hunting should also be covered by Hunting Lore. Along with other things like Society (local laws), Stealth (sneaking up on a hunt target), or Crafting (building a deer blind or something like that). But it shouldn't cover other things that these general skills cover when it is not relevant to the career.
So even if you are not earning income during downtime, you should still be able to do those Lore tasks separately. Not entirely sure when it would come up in an encounter. But that is the rule of thumb that I use.
This is exactly how Lores are meant to work. It just isn't going to be very useful in actual play, most of the time. Unless you're playing a ranger who dumps wisdom and dexterity for intelligence.
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Hunting Lore would also cover topic such as "which gods have hunting in their portfolio" and "who are hunters of legend" and "what kind of drinking games get played after a successful hunt".
And "how not to annoy a particularly touchy Erastil community" and "how to run for your life in the forest while being hunted because you failed when negotiating with that Erastil community".
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This is exactly how Lores are meant to work. It just isn't going to be very useful in actual play, most of the time. Unless you're playing a ranger who dumps wisdom and dexterity for intelligence.Or have a GM who employs mix-and-matching ability scores with your lore checks, which, though it's not stated specifically, feels like the intent to me.
You know, that is an obvious solution that never occured to me.
This is exactly how Lores are meant to work. It just isn't going to be very useful in actual play, most of the time. Unless you're playing a ranger who dumps wisdom and dexterity for intelligence.
Yeah, Hunting Lore is kinda redundant on a Ranger or Druid. Hunting Lore is meant for a Sorcerer, or a Monk. It is mostly for flavor. Can occasionally provide some mechanical benefit. Especially if the GM wants to spend the time to tie the character's flavor into the campaign.
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I agree that it totally makes sense to use Hunting Lore to fill in for particular aspects of Survival such as tracking the target of your hunt. However, does it seem to anyone else that it might still be a little broken to simply take Additional Lore (Hunting Lore) and have it automatically upgrade up to legendary? Hunting might not even be all that rare of occurrence if hunting monsters is included.
I agree that it totally makes sense to use Hunting Lore to fill in for particular aspects of Survival such as tracking the target of your hunt. However, does it seem to anyone else that it might still be a little broken to simply take Additional Lore (Hunting Lore) and have it automatically upgrade up to legendary? Hunting might not even be all that rare of occurrence if hunting monsters is included.
One of the only rules about Lore is that it shouldn't cover more than an actual skill does, so you're not gonna be able to use it for most monsters. Also, flavor wise, Hunting Lore is usually tied to a background before you could actually handld big scary monsters.
Amusingly enough, Monster Hunter is the feat line that lets you identify all creatures with Nature. But that's 2 class feats, one at 10th level. So that's another notch against one Lore skill covering all that.
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One of the only rules about Lore is that it shouldn't cover more than an actual skill does, so you're not gonna be able to use it for most monsters. Also, flavor wise, Hunting Lore is usually tied to a background before you could actually handld big scary monsters.
Well since you couldn't use Hunting Lore for foraging for food or building a shelter and whatnot, it wouldn't cover everything under Survival although it might cover things of other skills like Stealth and Nature which could be an advantage over Survival alone. However, another advantage of non-lore skills is they get their own specific feats, whereas Lores would just get straightforward checks with no bonuses or special effects.
I don't think any background actually gets Hunting Lore either. Strangely, the hunter background gets Tanning Lore.
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Lets see hunting Lore, for things that would not go under survival
Knowing the Laws about hunting and poaching in areas
knowing what kind of trophies would fetch prices (and where)
Knowing about traps (that are used for hunting) and hunting tactics
knowing about other kinds of hunting equipemt (typical weapons, other useful hunting gear)
knowing places where to hunt (and what to hunt there)
knowing famous hunters and legends about beasts and hunters
I think there are a few intersting uses even though (as with many lore skills) some are quite niche
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Looking for advice on how to utilize Hunting Lore. If you were a player or GM for a player with Hunting Lore, what sort of things would you expect to use this skill for?"lore" in plain english is usually traditions or knowledge based by "word of mouth." It doesn't typically involve practical knowledge, or knowledge learned by doing things. I would absolutely NOT let Hunting Lore replace tracking, foraging,, shelter building, etc. Any more than I would let Gymanstics Lore replace Acrobatics or Olympic Lore replace Athletics. Just because you know all the events of the olympics, who is good at them, the winners over the years, , doesn't mean you can do any of them.
Hunting Lore would be useful for knowledge on animals that are typically hunted. Not just animals you might kill in the wild, but creatures that that have "lore" associated with hunting them. Like bears, deer, wild board, dragons, etc. This would be region dependent. I would allow someone with Hunting Lore to know what local animals might be worth money as a trophy or have value in the open market. Hunting Lore might be used to know what parts of typically hunted creatures are valuable to collectors.
Hunting Lore might also be used to know what types of weapons are used against which creatures, in essence a way reverse engineer weaknesses or resistance. But again, only for creatures for which there exists an actual tradition of hunting. You're probably not going to get much lore on humanoids or undead.
Hunting Lore would be used to know famous hunters. It could be used to talk about hunting to tribes or indigenous people as a way to impress them, or learn what type of creatures they might be hunting.
I think of Lore as knowing info about something, which is why it is always INT based. It doesn't mean the character has any skill at doing the thing. Allowing it to replace Survival in any way, opens the door for doing an end around on non-INT skills.
Yes, I get that...
The problem with maintains Lore is only meant to Recall Knowledge is that it also has an extremely practical application: Earning Income. Now, granted, I think this latgekg about how well you can market those skills-- how much money you can get for a creature, how efficiently you can harvest it's body parts, etc. But that Earn Income roll is going to involve some hunting.
And that makes me think of a legit use for Hunting Lore: Earning Income using the level of local monsters rather than settlement size. That's a solid application in the right campaign.
Lets see hunting Lore, for things that would not go under survival
Knowing the Laws about hunting and poaching in areas
knowing what kind of trophies would fetch prices (and where)
Knowing about traps (that are used for hunting) and hunting tactics
knowing about other kinds of hunting equipemt (typical weapons, other useful hunting gear)
knowing places where to hunt (and what to hunt there)
knowing famous hunters and legends about beasts and huntersI think there are a few intersting uses even though (as with many lore skills) some are quite niche
Knowing how to dismantle and transport large game. Knowing how to store game when transport is not a viable option.
I think this is important for adventurers. We all want the loot for slaying a dragon (skin, blood, other various valuable parts)... but no one thinks about how to carry something that large.
I'm sure that bags of holding can eventually solve this issue... but what if you are a level 5 party, and you were sent to take out a pair of young white dragons? I could imagine an entire quest based around defending your prize from every amoral bandit, merchant, and local noble in the tri-county area.
Would earned income Sailing Lore in a desert town involve some sailing?
While I agree with your general point, land sailing does exist and it's not exactly new [a "wind-driven carriage" showed up in Chinese writings in the 4th-5th century]. Same could be said with ice sailing and the frozen tundra [17th century Netherlands]. Both are far less exotic than some of the vehicles running around in pathfinder. ;)
Would earned income Sailing Lore in a desert town involve some sailing?While I agree with your general point, land sailing does exist and it's not exactly new [a "wind-driven carriage" showed up in Chinese writings in the 4th-5th century]. Same could be said with ice sailing and the frozen tundra [17th century Netherlands]. Both are far less exotic than some of the vehicles running around in pathfinder. ;)
Also, Lores aren't guaranteed to work in any area. If those sailing vehicles aren't a thing, the GM can also just say you can't use Sailing Lore to Earn Income.
I know this well into houserule territory, but my general take is that lore skills can be used to make any reasonable skill action, but with practical limitations.
In this case, I'd allow Hunting Lore to track, forage, etc, but only under "mundane" circumstances; tracking is limited for typical game animals, surviving won't work in magical realms, only "normal" environments, etc. To me, this keeps the balance; survival is still needed to track legendary beasts, survive in a magical fey forest, etc, but still makes lores relevant. I've been playing it this way since the 2e playtest ended, and its worked out really nice; players didn't stop taking the main skills, though many take additional lore for a subject they are really passionate about
many take additional lore for a subject they are really passionate about
This is really key IMO. I think the whole point of Lore is supposed to be a way for player knowledge to pass through the character.
I'm not really a fan of Lores like Warfare Lore or Hunting Lore specifically because they seem overly broad and players (myself included) don't flesh it out to the point where it's fun.
I really like location Lores because it's very relatable. "You're from Magnimar? I'm from Magnimar! I'm going to have an easy time getting information out of you because we both put fried squid on our spaghetti!"
The list of Lores in the rules are examples, not a complete list. I'd rather a player pick a topic that interests them and they're done extra research on. When I play with my kids, I try to choose ridiculous Lores - like Poop Lore for my archaeologist, just to give me an excuse to talk about fossilized poop.
I played in a game with a character who had Fortune Telling Lore and an amnesiac character, the fortune teller did a by-the-book Harrow reading to tell the amnesiac some clues to their past. Totally unrelated to the scenario, but super duper cool for everyone.
Also, Lores aren't guaranteed to work in any area. If those sailing vehicles aren't a thing, the GM can also just say you can't use Sailing Lore to Earn Income.Would earned income Sailing Lore in a desert town involve some sailing?While I agree with your general point, land sailing does exist and it's not exactly new [a "wind-driven carriage" showed up in Chinese writings in the 4th-5th century]. Same could be said with ice sailing and the frozen tundra [17th century Netherlands]. Both are far less exotic than some of the vehicles running around in pathfinder. ;)
To be fair, there are some settings which have desert skiffs, not unlike some ice-sailers so with that you can use sailing lore in the middle of a desert :P