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1. No limit, because I don't play with people that do dumb$#!+ shenanigans. I can trust that they are simply doing what their characters would do... not dropping knives for free Fients, or whatever BS people abuse free actions for...
2. No. Immediate actions reduce the number of AoO they can make, not free actions.
2. No. Immediate actions reduce the number of AoO they can make, not free actions.
What? Is this really a rule?
There is no limit to the number of Free Actions that can be performed in a round, but it is subject to GM discretion as to what can "reasonably" be performed. Such as yelling "Incoming!" five times in a row as a free action = kosher, vs. reciting the entirety of the First Act of Hamlet as a free action = not so kosher. So, there is no hard limit per se, but the GM decides how much you can actually do.
You only get 1 Attack of Opportunity per round. This can be increased to add your Dex Mod to this amount with Combat Reflexes. AoO's do not consume any action type, and they immediately interupt combat the exact second that they're provoked (even if it interupts a player or creature's turn), and are even resolved before any other Free Actions or Immediate Actions can take place.
What? Is this really a rule?
2. No. Immediate actions reduce the number of AoO they can make, not free actions.
I will have to dig deeper when not at work, but I could swear I read somewhere that if you take an Immediate Action, you cannot make an AoO.
1. No limit, because I don't play with people that do dumb$#!+ shenanigans. I can trust that they are simply doing what their characters would do... not dropping knives for free Fients, or whatever BS people abuse free actions for...
I agree entirely.
2. No. Immediate actions reduce the number of AoO they can make, not free actions.
Ah ... is that your house rule?
Immediate actions aren't AoOs. Everyone gets 1 immediate/swift action per round, and everyone gets 1 AoO per round. These have nothing to do with one another, you can make an AoO and take an immediate action in the same round.
There are some abilities that increase the number of AoOs you can make (usually Combat Reflexes), but as far as I know there's no ability that increases the number of swift/immediate actions you can make.
Also, free actions are NOT AoOs. Free actions must be performed on your turn, not somebody else's. There are some free actions that can be performed on someone else's turn (eg. Speaking) but unless they specifically say they can be used on someone else's turn they can't be.
EDIT: Multi-ninja'd
I might be mistaken about the Immediate Action/AoO thing... I could be remembering a specific ability that is an immediate action to use that denies AoO if you use the immediate action... or just misremembering entirely. Doesn't matter, really.
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I might be mistaken about the Immediate Action/AoO thing... I could be remembering a specific ability that is an immediate action to use that denies AoO if you use the immediate action... or just misremembering entirely. Doesn't matter, really.
Immediate actions take up your swift action for the next round. That might be what you are thinking of.
Table: Combat Options Overview from Gamemastering/Combat say that AoO is free action.
Is it false?
Link please, I can find no mention of this.
I might be mistaken about the Immediate Action/AoO thing... I could be remembering a specific ability that is an immediate action to use that denies AoO if you use the immediate action... or just misremembering entirely. Doesn't matter, really.
Could be Swashbuckler's Parry/Riposte? The Parry is an AoO, the Riposte is an Immediate action.
Honestly there are enough examples like this that I can understand the confusion.
About "cosher/non cosher" by quantity of free actions per round...
My opinion next:
1) knight/paladin/warrior in full plate Can't make more then 3 AoO per round (even if he has Combat Reflexes feat).
Just because he is an Iron Man in Mark I - he is armoured, can hit painful but can't do it fast.
2) ninja/swashbuckler/another character based on Dex Can make more then 3 AoO per round (if he has Combat Reflexes feat and wear light/medium armour).
Just because he is like Winter Soldier - fast and haven't heavy armour that slow his action.
No, this isn't reasonable. The character has invested in high DEX and combat Reflexes and you're limiting them because you don't like the flavour. The character they're imagining could be different to the one you're imagining, and you're nerfing their character based on something not in the rules.
Imagine a Giant on a bridge, stopping an army from crossing. This Giant has 30 DEX and Combat Reflexes. Every time the army tries to cross the giant laughs and holds them back. This isn't because he's super quick, it's because he's so tough he can just swat them aside with his hand.
A Dwarven Paladin in Full Plate wielding a Longhammer is doing the same thing. He may look gruff and slow, but he knows how to stand his ground. He knows how to defend his stronghold. The fact that he has 18 DEX and Combat Reflexes means he can take 5 AoOs per turn - because despite appearances he IS that quick.
Having said all that, getting more than 3 AoOs in a round is so excedingly rare in my experience that I doubt you'd ever actually see this rule in action.
Heavy armor doesn't slow you as much as some imagine anyway. The max dex thing is a game balance element, not a RL simulation element.
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Heavy armor doesn't slow you as much as some imagine anyway. The max dex thing is a game balance element, not a RL simulation element.
For reals. I was flat amazed how quick and fluidly even relatively small persons can move in full plate armor. Look it up, it's impressive.
Kind of like the delusion that 2H swordmanship is comprised of slow, locomotive swings. The speed and agility at which even claymores were wielded is terrifying.
But, nowadays, people are generally lazy... and thus, they look at the world with the expectation that everyone else is also lazy, and always has been. There is just no way to realistically justify that normal people once did these extraordinary things. It's more comfortable to imagine heavy armor and greatswords being slow, because I couldn't move fast in it, or swing it quickly with any sort of precision... much less combine heavy armor AND a greatsword. It reminds people how lazy they are to imagine how motivated people can be. Lol.
I joke, but it is hard to imagine agility and swiftness being associated with plate armor and greatswords. Yet, the speed was there. As for that translating into tabletop fantasy games... there HAS to be a drawback, otherwise everyone would just run around in plate armor with 2H weapons. Lol.
As for the topic at hand, I don't think it is fair to limit someone's number of AoO due to their armor choice. If they have invested in Combat Reflexes or a Fortuitous weapon, or have any other ability that allows them to make more than one, then they have earned the right to make exactly that many... however many it way be. It is clownshoes to insert your extra controls over their investments.
And, early, I do believe it was the Immediate Action for a Swift Action thing that I was caught up on. Although, I have been messing with plenty of the class abilities mentioned as examples, any one of them also might have been on my mind.
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Also, there's the High Guardian Fighter archetype.
Defender’s Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a high guardian gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, and he can use his Strength modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier to determine the number of additional attacks of opportunity he can make per round. If he already has Combat Reflexes, he instead gains Stand Still as a bonus feat.
This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level.
Clearly not meant to be an agile warrior.
Nowhere on that page toes the phrase "free action" appear. It says "free attack", but not "free action".
The terminology used ... could be better, but essentially it isn't a "Free Action" because it isn't called one and it doesn't act like one. It' "free" in that it doesn't take a Move/Standard/Full-Round/Swift/Immediate Action, but it also isn't a "Free Action" exactly either. Free Actions follow their own rules, and AoOs don't follow those rules.
This is one of those cases where an AoO is it's own kind of action simply because it doesn't fit within the framework of any other kinds of action in the game. I hesitate to call it "not an action" because ... well because attacking someone is definitely some kind of action, so that'd be stupid.
I understand why you're reading it differently, and it's not even an unreasonable way to read it, but they are different.
HOWEVER
As I said earlier, I don't think I've ever had more than 3 AoOs in a round, and I'm playing 2 characters (level 12 and level 8) who are the only melee character in their parties. That's months, or maybe years of gameplay, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've made 3 AoOs in a round.
So if you want to limit on the number of AoOs in a round to 3 then go nuts. I doubt it'll ever matter.
What I WOULDN'T do is limit it based on the flavour of their character. Just because one is a Ninja and one is a Knight doesn't mean the Ninja is going to be better at taking advantage of AoOs. The Rogue spent time learning poisons while the Paladin was learning to fight. The Ninja spent time learning minor magics while the Fighter was learning to hit things harder. If anything it's more likely the other way.
I assume you're referring to THIS TABLE.
The first thing is that the d20pfsrd is NOT a rules source. They're not run by Paizo and they do get things wrong. I think they're great but just because they call it a Free Action doesn't mean it is one. I checked HERE and that table doesn't exist.
Let's assume I'm wrong though. Let's assume that it IS a free action and I'm looking in the wrong places . The limit on free actions is a suggestion for GMs, not a rule. The number of AoOs is given by Combat Reflexes is a rule. Even if you consider the suggestion to limit the number of AoOs as a rule, it's still a general rule. In Pathfinder specific rules overrule general ones, and Combat Reflexes is definitely more specific than the general rule.
I should say that this is all coming from a rules standpoint.
If you're looking for advice because your players are abusing AoOs and getting 19 attacks per round then I'm sure people can come up with other solutions. Heck, just nerfing Combat Reflexes so it gives half the number of AoOs would do the trick .
I guess the question is: WHY are you asking this question? Is there a problem you're trying to solve?
Next answer from designer: Although there are no specific rules about how many free actions you may take in a round, it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action.
Here's the thing: That part was removed! They changed the FAQ within two weeks because they realized that a hard limit breaks the game (especially for archers, as drawing arrows is free action), and thus must not exist.
Remove that "5 per turn / 3 of the same kind" limit from your mind. It is not official, it's not reasonable, and it's not good for the game.
Under normal circumstances, you shouldn't limit free actions (or AoOs) at all.
Table: Combat Options Overview from Gamemastering/Combat say that AoO is free action.
Is it false?
Yes, it is. You can only take free action when it's your turn unless something says different, and no part of the AoO rules in the CRB does so. Since the CRB explicitly talks about making AoOs during other characters' turns, one of the two books must be wrong. I think we all agree that the CRB is the more relevant source than a softcover book. AoO is not listed as a free action on the table on pg. 183 of the CRB, and the respective rules make no mention of it being any kind of action at all.
I checked HERE and that table doesn't exist.
That table is indeed from a Paizo source, Melee Tactics Toolbox - not a core line book and thus not part of the PRD.
I checked HERE and that table doesn't exist.That table is indeed from a Paizo source, Melee Tactics Toolbox - not a core line book and thus not part of the PRD.
Ah good to know.
Something I just thought of: When doe your AoOs reset? At the beginning of your turn or the end? It usually doesn't matter, but I'm sure sometimes it does.
beginning, like all other actions.
- and it matter since you can do things that allow you to make aoo in your turn before it ends. (swashbuckler drawing aoo by moving to parry ass aoo. and i believe snake style feat tree does something similar etc)
As I said earlier, I don't think I've ever had more than 3 AoOs in a round, and I'm playing 2 characters (level 12 and level 8) who are the only melee character in their parties. That's months, or maybe years of gameplay, and I can count on 1 hand the number of times I've made 3 AoOs in a round.I've had 8 once, but I was (ab)using Intrepid Rescuer with a familiar(and paired opportunists) and myself both prone against a group of 'non-intelligent' enemies.
Yeah I'm expecting I'll get to 5 AoOs per round regularly with my Bloodrager (EDIT: at later levels) - rediculous reach plus Come And Get Me, and maybe the bodyguard feat . But even then if I only got 3 I'd probably be fine with it - it basically just saves me casting Cat's Grace.
You pretty much have to go all-in to ever get more than 2-3 AoOs. If the GM thinks that's unreasonable then ... I guess don't build a CAGM/Bodyguard Bloodrager, or a Paired-Opportunist/Intrepid-Rescuer-Familiar character.
Variel had 5 AoO afforded to him each round via Combat Reflexes. If I hadn't retired him at level 12, and continued him with the party for 5 more levels to Kensai 11, he would have gotten 5 more from Superior Reflexes. Variel also had 3 free attacks each round from Panther Parry, which definitely would have been at least 4 by the time he would have hit Kensai 11 (level 17). So, that is at least 13...
On any given round, I probably only used one or two real AoO... some AoO would be spent using Crane Riposte, and if all else fails, Opportune Parry & Riposte is also fueled by AoO. That isn't including the 3 Panther Parry attacks I made pretty regularly, maybe not all of them, every round... but at least a few almost every encounter.
Variel would casually waltz around the battlefield tempting enemy AoO, and throat punching them for their efforts. He would then just post up in a bottleneck/chokepoint, and dish out AoO of his own. Or fearlessly walk into flanking position with friends. Dealt a pretty significant portion of his damage out of turn... the rest of it was dealt fighting defensively and just walking around with Crane Style and Panther Style fused. Very rarely even used SpellCombat or Spellstrike, even though he had both.
Anyways, my point is that by the time Variel got Superior Reflexes, and had over 10 AoO every round, he probably would have used them. He would exhaust his 5 AoO and 3 Panther Parry attacks more often than going an entire round without using either. His available AoO ended up being a pool he pulled from often.
He had Panache, and Ki, and Magus Arcane Pool... could interchange Panache and Ki, as well as Ki and Arcane Pool. Could utilize Panache with Unarmed Strikes, his Rapier, and his Longbow. Yet, the pool he used most was simple action economy that refreshes every round. Invested heavily in being able to capitalize on it, too.
That wasn't even teamwork feat abuse/shenanigans with a Familiar or counting as one's own ally or any such nonsense. Just pure feasting on the AoO allowed by Combat Reflexes and the free Panther Parry attacks.
