What to Expect at a PFS 2E Table

[Doug Hahn]

Back in the ol’ days, in a realm far, far away called Pathfinder 1E, a player named Painlord posted what was an epic treatise about what he expected other players to be able to do when he sat down with them at the PFS table.

Painlord’s post helped me a lot. I still ask new players to read it. I link it on my GM profile. With more and mroe players moving into mid- and high-tier play, I wanted to articulate some of my own PFS thoughts, goals, and expectations in the same style.

I’m interested in your ideas, too!

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PFS EXPECTATIONS BY LEVEL

Level One:

Grab a potion from your school items and mention where it is on your person. This way your allies can feed it to you while you're Dying. Or buy one and pick something else from your school… just bring a damn potion. This habit will save your bacon at least once in your society career.

Every new character should have at least one of the following: a spare light weapon (often a dagger), a primary weapon, and a ranged weapon (sometimes a dagger). Martial characters should try to buy a couple of types, so they can get through DR or capitalize on Weakness easily.

You should have a way to create light if you don’t have darkvision… even if it’s just a torch. If you are a caster with darkvision, you should strongly consider preparing a Light cantrip just to be a good teammate. Cast it on a rock and drop hand it into your human buddy's pocket.

Level Three:

Here is where most PCs get their first General Feat. I don’t want to digress into build choices, but your pick should be informed by the unpredictable nature of PFS. If you’re a low-con melee type, Fleet might look fun but you should consider the less-flashy Toughness so people aren’t wasting time picking you up when you fall. A caster can choose Canny Acumen to shore up a weak save and retrain it later.

Players are expected to grasp the basics of action economy and to always do something on their turn. At this level, you should know what Stepping, Sustaining, Delaying, and Readying entail. If you aren’t sure what to do with your third action raise a shield, stride, set up an Aid, or make a Recall Knowledge check.

Martial characters should have a magic weapon by now, and a few bombs to deal with swarms and DR or regeneration. Everyone should buy a couple Holy waters.

You should start speaking Pathfinder. Include your DCs when you cast spells (“I cast Fear; DC 21 Basic Will Save for the dire Corgi.”)

At level 3 you’re probably still learning the finer points, but having a foundation in the basics will make you awesome later.

Level Five:

Increase Constitution. I can’t think of a good reason not to on any build, but if you don’t agree then you better have a damn good justification. Again, PFS isn’t a home game where you will always have a healer to pick you up, or the sheltering wing of a Champion to let you go all-out on offense. You need to take care of yourself. It's not your teammates' job.

At this point, martials are expected to have a several magical weapons with which to solve problems. If you use a steel shield, you should have been using the Sturdy shield for about a level now.

You should have your Armor Potency rune soon. Casters should also invest in armor potency and if not use spell slots for mitigation tactics.

Casters should also invest in scrolls for utility — options include resist energy (great against persistent damage), glitterdust/faery fire, spider climb (deal with terrain), Heal/Soothe, Restoration, Water Walk, and other utility scrolls. You probably don’t have all these yet, but you should start a collection that will someday become a library. You might even have a wand or two (for example, Heal or Longstrider to provide utility).

Martials should also have utility, whether that is debuffs (intimidation is common), face skills, crafting, etc. They can also purchase items to contribute in a variety of situations, such as by buying silvertongue mutagens to contribute in a social endeavor or emerald grasshoppers to solve terrain.

Speaking of, you are now expected to more often cope with challenging terrain. It's often baked into the encounter as part of the challenge rating. You should think about how you will get to difficult places like cliffs, bogs, underwater, etc.

Level Seven:

Another general feat. Always a good idea to bump a weak save to Expert here if you took Toughness at 3.

At this level, I expect spell casters to start freely using non-cantrip slots to buff allies or harm enemies.

I expect everyone to have a way to heal themselves for a non-trivial amount, and to have a variety of tools at their disposal such as potions of invisibility, all elements’ bombs, emergency boons, etc. Casters should now have a modest library for utility: Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Air Walk, See Invisibility, and Neutralize Poison can be lifesavers.

The party should be able to cope with invisible enemies.

All players should think about ways to help teammates deal with nastiness, such as persistent damage, spike damage, terrain difficulty, etc.

Level Nine:

Somewhat theoretical as we're not really there yet in PFS. But this is what I anticipate: I will expect you to operate as a team even though you might be playing with strangers, and to formulate strategies TOGETHER against enemies with unique and dangerous abilities. I expect players to have one or more plans against immunities/ DR. I expect PCs to pick each other up when one drops. I expect PCs be prepared to deal with a variety of even more challenging terrains. I expect PCs to use consumables freely.

Everyone should have at least one “break in case of emergency” item.

I expect all players to be the subject matter experts on their abilities.

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ALL LEVELS

Focus Fire:

It’s the easiest thing in the world, yet it fails to happen so often. Why is that? Because people aren’t paying attention. It's hard, sometimes. We all have stuff going on in our homes, our lives, etc.

Make note of whatever enemy is most damaged and focus fire. 2E is an action-economy game; taking even one mook out can have a positive cascade effect.

Help Flank:

Flanking is mission-critical — even if you’re a caster, you can walk around with a whip in hand to threaten at reach. (Also remember everyone is trained in Unarmed, so you always flank anyway, but you might not want to be toe-to-toe with an enemy).

Your wizard is not necessarily off the hook if the only damage dealer in the party needs a flank to hit the high AC big bad severe encounter. Go ahead and pay a few silvers and carry around a whip to threaten from range.

What Will You Do When There's no Healer?:

No Cure Light Wounds spam coupled with the randomized nature of PFS makes this one of the most important AND challenging 2E problems for you to solve.

Don’t look at your sheet before a game and think “Gee, I hope some random person in the party can heal of me.” Instead: “What is my plan without healing in the party?”

Always have at least two healing potions of the highest level available. Your 1d8 minor healing potion you saved since level 1 is just going to hurt more than help at level 8.

At least picking up training in medicine is a strong contender for any character, as well as taking Battle Medicine and walking around with the healer’s tools in your bandolier. It works in a pinch and you'll hit the DCs at mid levels on. Or, grab some healer’s gloves to help an ally in need.

Every striker class should invest in a feat or strategy for dealing with dangerous melee enemies: be it Dueling Parry, Nimble Dodge, Moment of Clarity, Shield Block, etc.

Every caster should know the Shield cantrip and have some other way to bolster themselves against damage or effects (e.g Mirror Images, armor training).

2-handed melee PCs should still buy a shield and one-handed weapon so they can “sword and board” in a group where they will be put at high risk — even the barbarian can do this.

Never forget your dagger. You don't want to be swallowed whole without a light-bulk weapon.

Finally, be DYNAMIC. Stick and move if the enemy's highly dangerous and your group lacks healing. If you end up Dying because you ate a full attack, it causes your teammates to use their actions helping you, and so forth… do you see how things can spiral quickly?

Use It & Lose It.:

PFS gives way more GP per level than you get in an AP. It’s totally crazy how wealthy Pathfinders are versus normal adventurers, and often shocking to go from PFS-land to AP-land.

This is by design, and it’s not so you get cool toys faster, it’s so you have a fighting chance when 6 barbarians show up to play the intrigue scenario.

If class and ancestry features don't cover your bases, invest in items that do. School items aren’t enough. Spend your gold liberally on shoring up your weak points — is your character kind of dumb, and going to a social scenario? Buy a couple cognitive mutagens. Want to be stealthy but you’re clanking around in full plate? Buy an invisibility potion. Scholarly with no charisma? They have a mutagen for that, too.

Budget at least 10% of your wealth on consumables. I actually feel like you could swing even more than that.

Have a Fallback Plan:

”No plan meets contact with the enemy.”

Are you an enchantment-focused caster or precision damager? What are you going to do in a scenario full of oozes?

Do you channel negative energy? What are you going to do in an undead-themed scenario?

When I build or refine characters, I often write a variety of common situations and strategies on notecards. It can be helpful to some of these thought exercises:

• What if the enemy is immune to my main shtick?
• What if I’m underwater?
• What if I’m being shot at from a cliff?
• What if I cannot see the enemy?
• What if the enemy is flying?

And so on. You might not have all the answers, but you can probably patch together a secondary strategy if you think about it ahead of time. These thought exercises can help illuminate what items to buy as well.

Contribute In and Out of Combat:

No matter what you build, you must contribute in and out of combat. PFS scenarios typically have components of intrigue/social encounters as well as combat.

Shield champion? Take craft so you can fix your own busted shield. As a bonus, crafting is ridiculously broad in this system. Barbarian? Raging intimidation will help you in and out of combat.

Sky's the limit, and often these skills and feats serve multiple purposes. Plus, it makes your whole session more enjoyable when you can meaningfully participate in more parts of the narrative.

The awesome news is this is a LOT easier in 2e than it was in 1e.

Stick together — In & Out of Caracter:

Pathfinder is a team effort, and that is the only way to succeed. Don't go off on your own; let the rogue do their trapfinding and position yourselves on a tactical map with intentionality.

Agree on goals together. If there's an optional encounter or hard mode, tally a vote instead of letting the vocal individual decide. Try your best to coordinate tiers because play between subtiers can be very touch-and-go especially with a suboptimal party composition.

Want to Improve Even More?:

Learn to GM!

Talk to your local VA about running some games. It will help a lot.

____________________
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING

Pathfinder Society is a social endeavor. You are often playing with strangers who have different reasons for picking up this hobby and different things they enjoy about it. Respect that.

Your GM is volunteering their time and doing their best. Your fellow players are too. We're often tired after a busy day or have other things going on in our lives that distract us or detract from strategic ability.

Empathize, forgive, and pass on knowledge, and celebrate in a respectful manner. Allow space for everyone to have at least one moment in the spotlight, every single game.

When someone does something that helps the whole party or expends a valuable resource, give them a compliment. Say thanks.

I don't always live up to these expectations, but I strive for them.

What do you expect of yourself, and your teammates, in 2E PFS?

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

- Standing Ovation! -

'Always do something' is such an important tenet, as are your notes for being a great teammate and player.

Kudos for mentioning GMing. GMing can be a great way to learn about the game in a deeper way, and give pleasure to others in the community. I learn so much about tactics from the GM side of things, and it does make me a better player.

Thank you for making the time to put this together, Doug!

[vagrant-poet]

Awesome advice! Also great for people building characters above level one in general!

[andreww]

On the question of having a light source, once you have played two games with the same character you automatically qualify for a free wayfinder boon. There is no reason not to have a light source available to you.

Also, one thing to note given the reference to Potions of Invisibility, these are Uncommon and therefore not normally available without some sot of Boon or chronicle access.

[Watery Soup]

I'm not sure this is the original intent of the thread, but I'll throw my thoughts in here as well. I think I have more behavioral expectations from the player than I have mechanically about their characters.

Player expectations by sessions played:

Session 1:

I expect that every new player be honest about what "new" means - new to Pathfinder Society 2E, new to Pathfinder 2E, new to Pathfinder, new to TTRPGs, or new to RPGs. There's no shame in admitting you don't know the difference between an elf and an orc ... or that you really liked the D&D movie from the 90s.

I expect that players have an open mind and be able to suspend disbelief.

I expect that players roughly follow the social norms of the table. Whether the table is full of high-fiving extroverts or number-crunching introverts, I expect a new player to avoid actively opposing what others are doing if it doesn't affect them.

I expect players to describe what their characters want to do, rather than describe what rolls they as players want to make.

I expect new players to regularly make a lot of procedural, logistic, and game-mechanical mistakes.

Session 2:

You can't pretend you're there by mistake any more! hahaha

I expect that players will retain a large fraction of what they learned in the first session, given how low my expectations were for the first session.

I expect that players will not need help with game mechanics of combinations of common combat actions, or common skill checks (including saves).

I expect players to understand they are participants in a collaborative project, and not consumers of entertainment.

GM expectations by sessions GMed:

Session 0:

I expect that players think, even briefly, about GMing at some point. Put another way, I am disturbed if someone never considers it, even briefly.

I expect players actively watch their GMs before they try GMing themselves, e.g., staying afterwards and asking a GM about something that happened during the session, to learn about GMing before having the GM title.

I expect prospective GMs to adopt a "pay it forward" attitude, recognizing what others have done for them.

Session 1:

I expect the GM to have read through the scenario enough so they understand it, and then one more time after that (so, minimum 2 if they feel like they got it all the first time, and probably like 3-4 times).

I expect that GMs will make mistakes, including rules mistakes they wouldn't have missed as a player.

Eventually:

I expect the GM to be familiar enough with not only the current game system, but enough about other game systems (e.g., D&D 5e), or pop culture (e.g., Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings), or other media (e.g., World of Warcraft) to explain Pathfinder 2 to a new player (see one of the other spoilers for what "new player" means) who's familiar with other game systems / pop culture / fantasy computer games.

I expect the GM to recognize the difference between players thinking, confused, and being bored.

I expect the GM to be able to be angry without showing anger. (Take it to Discord PMs or share problematic player stories with a fellow GM at a bar or whatever.)

I expect the GM to be able to de-escalate situations (between themselves and players, between the players, between the host FLGS and the table, etc.) in virtually all scenarios.

I expect the GM to recognize the scope and limitations of their power, and neither shy away from using it nor take opportunities to abuse it.

Character stuff:

Character Creation:

I think it's valuable to have an idea of what a character is like independent of the game mechanics of Pathfinder 2E.

Example: You want your character to talk with animals? Bad approach: Go look for a spell called talk with animals. Good approach: Imagine a typical conversation. What do they talk about? What do they want to say to each other? Mechanically, there are probably many ways to accomplish what you want - a character could speak Sylvan; leshy characters have some innate abilities; druids have wild empathy; and there's probably a primal spell. There's also clairaudience/clairvoyance, which may accomplish the same feeling but on different spell lists, etc., and probably others that give the same feel without the exact mechanic.

I think a character should be able to do one thing very well, and at least two other things okay-to-well. Ideally, that one thing is one of the three most-recognized roles (melee combatant, ranged combatant, face), and by "very well" I mean 1st or 2nd place in your party (on a level-adjusted basis).

Note that I don't consider a healer to be a major role - I think the party needs healing, but not a healer, and Doug covered everything else I'd say about it. Also I don't consider tank to be a major role, because I don't think they exist in PF2.

I think a character should be built such that when 3 other characters are built with the same philosophy, a group of 4 random characters can reasonably expect to have all the major roles covered twice and all the skills covered once. If every character is built with the philosophy that someone else will take care of it, then your only savior is never playing with people like yourself. If 4 people get together and decide to make hyper-specialized characters and to play consistently with each other, your system will break down the first time that someone misses a session.

I think every character should have a characteristic about them or a bit of trivia/lore that no other character has (to the players' knowledge). Corollary: "brooding martial who has zero interest in social interactions" is not as unique a concept as people who use it think it is.

Backgrounds for Level 1 and Level 11 newly-created characters are different. A new Level 1 character's mechanical background is going to have been their entire life. By Level 11, the mechanical background of the character is moot - at some point in their life they were a baker but they've probably defeated a dragon by Level 11, and it's unlikely they'd be talking about baking. Backgrounds should tie together multiple mechanical aspects into a story - why did a Power Attacking fighter take Lunge? There might be a decent story behind that.

Level 1:

What Doug said, plus:

I strongly advocate knowing what your character will look like at the next level. Ask yourself what prerequisites will you have to meet later? Which suboptimal parts can you put up with at Level 1 in order to get something better later?

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

Quote:

I expect everyone to have a way to heal themselves for a non-trivial amount, and to have a variety of tools at their disposal such as potions of invisibility,

Potion of invisibility is a bad example here, as it is an uncommon item.

[Doug Hahn]

Thanks for the notes on the invisibility potions.

Painlord's guides did well to avoid small details like that, so the conversation stayed on topic and the most important points got through. Which, in this case, is that you're expected to solve a variety of problems and to use consumables.

I wish I could edit the post to add in Wayfinders! Too many (including myself) forget about them.

[Tyranius]

This looks great Doug!

[Rakshara of the Flame]

I note that Whip is Martial - can a character without Martial Weapons proficiency still threaten with it?

[HammerJack]

You would be wielding a melee weapon, and something within 10 feet would be within your reach. Those are the only requirements for things like flanking. Being Untrained does not change anything about that.

[Dubious Scholar]

I'd note that for level 5 a wand of mage armor and +1 Explorer's Clothing actually have the same item bonus. The wand doesn't lose to runes until level 8. (Also, bracers of armor are 50gp cheaper than +1 resilient armor at 8)

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

This is phenomenal advice for how to build and maintain a PFS2 character that can reasonably survive any party composition. Truly great advice.

That said, there is a little thing throughout that nags at me. That thing is "expect(ation(s))". This implies, to me at least, that if I build (or play) my character in a way that deviates from this that I am doing it wrong. In essence, telling people how to play the game. That crosses a line in my book.

Don't get me wrong, I have often gotten frustrated with other players for many of these things. I have also ranted alone to myself about this and more tactically foolish decisions. However, even then, I keep it to myself, it is not my place to tell someone how to play the game. That is why, when I play my high level characters, I almost always personally recruit players.

I am not denouncing the advice, merely questioning the intent.

[Mike Kimmel]

Leomund Leo Velinznrarikovich wrote:

I am not denouncing the advice, merely questioning the intent.

Rather than assuming Doug intends to "tell people how to play the game," let's assume positive intent. Doug invites others to share their expectations, indicating an openness to other ideas. He also asks folks to respect that other players have different things they enjoy about the game. That doesn't seem like someone who's trying to tell people there's one right way to play.

That being said, reframing the conversation as "advice for being a good player in PFS" is probably a good call. "Expectations" does convey a more rigid tone.

Now... time to take notes on all your careful preparations so I can thwart your PCs at every turn! Bwahahahaha, etc.

[Doug Hahn]

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

This is phenomenal advice for how to build and maintain a PFS2 character that can reasonably survive any party composition. Truly great advice.

That said, there is a little thing throughout that nags at me. That thing is "expect(ation(s))". This implies, to me at least, that if I build (or play) my character in a way that deviates from this that I am doing it wrong. In essence, telling people how to play the game. That crosses a line in my book.

Don't get me wrong, I have often gotten frustrated with other players for many of these things. I have also ranted alone to myself about this and more tactically foolish decisions. However, even then, I keep it to myself, it is not my place to tell someone how to play the game. That is why, when I play my high level characters, I almost always personally recruit players.

I am not denouncing the advice, merely questioning the intent.

That's a great point!

I'm the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to tactical soundness and being prepared all the time.

As someone who GMs more than they play, I have noticed certain "checkpoints" in how encounters and DCs are designed (especially Severe Encounters). That's sort of what I meant by "expectations." (In 1E it was expected that PCs would have access to flight after a certain point, and encounters were balanced around that assumption).

Whatever the case, I strongly believe there are cooperation-centric concepts that we can share as a social community (to use another 1e example: it was a social norm to provide your own wand of cure light wounds instead of expecting others to use their resources; in 2e I would hope every player has at least one decent healing potion instead of needing someone else’s when the tine comes).

Players who aren't "optimizers" can still adhere to basic cooperative concepts in one way or another, and strive to contribute meaningfully to the group effort and challenge-point weighting across their lifespan.

I consider the social aspect and empathy to be the most important thing; it trumps everything else. Maybe "hopes" would be less didactic than "expectations."

[Nefreet]

These Forums would indeed be a better place if we all assumed positive intent.

[Mike Kimmel]

Nefreet wrote:

These Forums would indeed be a better place if we all assumed positive intent.

It's the public school teacher in me. :)

[Nefreet]

Hey! I was raised by 3 of those!

[Mike Kimmel]

Nefreet wrote:

Hey! I was raised by 3 of those!

I'm so sorry. XD

To me, assuming positive intent is a key part of "cooperating," so let's call it my contribution to the rest of this excellent advice for making PFS tables a cool place to be.

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

Rakshara of the Flame wrote:

I note that Whip is Martial - can a character without Martial Weapons proficiency still threaten with it?

Not only can you threaten with it, you can also feint, disarm, and trip with it without being proficient with it.

[JohannVonUlm]

I remember reading another post ages ago that put it simply, but resonated with me.

When you build a character, think about the basics:
- what you do in a fight?
- what do you do when your main fight strategy is blocked (can't melee, have something ranged; monster has resistance - have a backup damage type)
- What do you do in a social encounter?
- What do you do in a skill challenge?

Ignoring any of those things makes you less than useful in a good chunk of a scenario.

From a story standpoint, spend a couple of minutes on developing your character introduction.

"I'm a big dude with an axe" is so much less interesting than "I was a bartender at the Wounded Wisp and heard all these Pathfinders talking about the Whispering Tyrant's escape and all the refugees they helped escape his hordes. I just felt I needed to help somehow, so I signed up."

[Ascalaphus]

I like how you frame it as "what do you do during X"; it starts with the assumption that you're participating.

My golden recipe for a fun martial character in PFS2 is really simple. Put one mental stat at 14+ and take the matching skills, so that you also participate in that whole part of the game.

[Thomas Keller]

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

This is phenomenal advice for how to build and maintain a PFS2 character that can reasonably survive any party composition. Truly great advice.

That said, there is a little thing throughout that nags at me. That thing is "expect(ation(s))". This implies, to me at least, that if I build (or play) my character in a way that deviates from this that I am doing it wrong. In essence, telling people how to play the game. That crosses a line in my book.

Don't get me wrong, I have often gotten frustrated with other players for many of these things. I have also ranted alone to myself about this and more tactically foolish decisions. However, even then, I keep it to myself, it is not my place to tell someone how to play the game. That is why, when I play my high level characters, I almost always personally recruit players.

I am not denouncing the advice, merely questioning the intent.

I agree wholeheartedly. If someone asks for advice, this is decent advice to give, but it comes across as telling people how to play, and that's not cool.

[Doug Hahn]

Thomas Keller wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly. If someone asks for advice, this is decent advice to give, but it comes across as telling people how to play, and that's not cool.

As mentioned in my post, the most important thing is that it's all a social endeavor. Of course we shouldn't give others advice at inappropriate times; in no way was it my intention to even imply any such thing. We should also strive to constructively communicate and respect the variety of reasons and ways people enjoy this hobby.

Like every social contract, Org Play is a two-way street. There are some very basic expectations (or hopes) that do exist between players in Society play. Cooperation, for one. I absolutely expect that of my fellow players.

Every PC at the table adds mechanical difficulty to the scenario via Challenge Points. Almost all of us hope our teammates will do their best to carry their portion of the challenge rating by being well-prepared and built decently well. This might not always happen, but I think we all want fellow Pathifners to try… and possibly even to learn. (Also, I do like "hope" a lot better than "expectation" for this one. I agree "expectation" is too didactic.)

In addition to this subjective component, there is an objective, mathematical one. Scenarios are mechanically balanced around basic competencies, consumable availability in the form of extra wealth by level and training, and gated milestones such as Expert/Master abilities. These are objective expectations that do play a role in game design, and I think it's okay to acknowledge and explore that reality.

As a social endeavor, we expect others to respect our choices and we do the same for them. We also hope that our teammates are willing to contribute to group success by considering the unique necessities of organized play.

[Blake's Tiger]

One could reframe these as expectations:

Example:

Level 1:

1. You should expect to be dropped to 0 HP. Since you have no control over what capabilities other players will contribute with their characters and to avoid relying upon the luck of the dice, selecting a minor healing potion as your bonus consumable and letting everyone know you have one in case you get knocked to 0 HP will allow anyone in the party to stabilize you.

2. You should expect to encounter damage resistances (and weaknesses). Carrying a variety of weapons to deal with the advantages and disadvantages of different weapon damage will be helpful to you.

3. You should expect to encounter enemies at range. Sometimes there is just too much distance between you and the enemy. Sometimes there is difficult or harmful terrain. Sometimes, even at Level 1, they fly. Carrying a ranged weapon, even if it's just a dagger to throw, allows you to press the offensive as you close the gap. I guarantee you that if there's enough distance at the start of the encounter to waste Strides on, the enemy will have a ranged attack.

4. You should expect darkness. Having a solution to this on your character, be it darkvision, your free wayfinder after playing 2 games with the character, or just a torch, will save you a great deal of frustration.

Granted, I didn't read the original post as pedantic, but our individual perceptions are all filtered through the lens of our experiences.

[RealAlchemy]

On the ranged weapon expectation, I have a couple characters where my ranged weapon is "produce flame."

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

My intent in this is to teach to fish instead of giving a fish..

AC

AC is important. In previous versions, you could just resign yourself to be hit if you got attacked and then build for that. In 2e, your character's life depends on you putting effort into your AC. This is because of critical hits only needing to achieve 10 higher than your AC.

Now, you may feel concerned that you might have to dabble in mathlympics to participate in the AC game. Fear not, I have an simple little formula to help.

item bonus + dex mod = 5

Just about everyone (excluding monks) start off with the same proficiency. Check to see what armor your class is proficient with and grab one from there. 5 is more or less the goal number. The good news is, if you take care of this at 1st level, you can pretty much set it and forget it. Though, you should grab armor potency runes when you get to the appropriate levels.

SPELLS

As a person who plays many spellcasters, I will begin this section by telling you that not all spells are created equal. Due to the mechanics of 2e some are far better (mechanically) than others. That said, I encourage people to choose whatever option they desire. My goal is for you to understand how your choices will interact with the game.

Your spell attack and DC are based on your specific ability mod and your proficiency, that is all. There does not currently exist any way to increase those with items. The fun part is that NPCs (your enemies) are built off of the numbers generated from weapon attacks (which can get item boosts) for AC, and (I assume) skills (which can ramp faster in proficiency than spells) for saves (against your DCs). This means that, aside from the beginning levels (1-4ish) spellcasting will be a little behind on these fronts. You will hit less often with spells and enemies will succeed more often versus your spells. You should come to terms with this as soon as possible.

Despite this dreary outlook, there are simple ways to pick from the 'cream of the crop', as it were. The best spells are those that still do things if you miss or your enemy succeeds. Damaging spells with basic saves are among these. Yes, it'd be cool if the enemy fails (even cooler if the enemy crit fails), but remember you are still doing damage even if they succeed. Even your martial counterparts cannot achieve nearly automatic damage (mostly). You may note that this pretty much excludes attack roll based spells. Yup. It is unfortunate, but a reality.

Again, it is not my goal to tell you what spells to pick. Merely that I desire you to know the mechanics of what you are picking.

Hope this all was helpful.

[MadScientistWorking]

RealAlchemy wrote:

On the ranged weapon expectation, I have a couple characters where my ranged weapon is "produce flame."

What if something is immune to magic or fire?

[Nefreet]

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

You will hit less often with spells and enemies will succeed more often versus your spells. You should come to terms with this as soon as possible.

I view this more as a lesson on the importance of buffing and debuffing.

Bonuses are as impactful in this game as they are underrated. I can't count the number of times a +1 made the difference in an encounter. Doubly so for spellcasters.

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

Nefreet wrote:

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

You will hit less often with spells and enemies will succeed more often versus your spells. You should come to terms with this as soon as possible.

I view this more as a lesson on the importance of buffing and debuffing.

Bonuses are as impactful in this game as they are underrated. I can't count the number of times a +1 made the difference in an encounter. Doubly so for spellcasters.

While I agree that buffing and debuffing are important, I consider such topics above the 'basics'. Also, if one plans for the base level without accounting for 'above basics' tactics, then when buffing and debuffing happens, one overperforms.

[Nefreet]

Disagreement noted ^_^

[Silbeg]

I think debuffing definitely falls under “what to do with your third action”

If you are a spellcaster who is using spell attack rolls, it would definitely not hurt to have a decent Deception or Intimate skill. The latter is doubly true if you are casting spells with saving throws! Start with a feint or intimidate... if it works, your follow up is stronger. If not, you are only out the “extra” action anyway.

I also agree that it is probably not a good idea to stand toe to toe and exchange full attacks with tough opponents. You will both be crit fishing, though there is a good chance the bad guy will still be able to hit without a crit. If nothing else, Step back, or otherwise move. Make them waste an action closing with you. (However, if you have a rogue in the party, consider granting them a flank instead.)

[TwilightKnight]

Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:

merely questioning the intent.

I don't see this as targeted at experienced players nor telling anyone how to play their character. New players regularly ask what to expect when they join org play and this is just a way to inform them what the GM expects from them over their first few sessions.

Nefreet wrote:

These Forums would indeed be a better place if we all assumed positive intent.

It would be just as effective if no intent at all was assumed by the reader and every comment was taken with no tone and simply as dispassionate commentary. But, of course, humans are what they are and most up to and including the Paizo moderators seem to forget this idea on a fairly regular basis.

[rainzax]

This is a cool resource.

To those who think it sounds overly-proscriptive ("I expect..."), I will respectfully disagree on two counts. The first, nowhere does it say "do 100% of these things %100 of the time", which by omission suggests that these are Goals to Shoot For, not Absolute Prerequisites that Must Be Met. The second, is that because character survivability is inextricably tied between characters by the string of Challenge Points, ignoring most of the advice above places the whole party in jeopardy.

That said, I will add my own small contributions.

Team Communication
Make an effort to talk both in- and out- of character with your party. At the upper end, this could look like discussing overall strategy first before deciding what actions each character could take to execute it. At the lower end, it could be as simple as asking "What do you think about __________, Merisiel?" to someone you notice hasn't spoken on a topic yet, or, if your characters are back-to-back in an initiative sequence, asking whether to use Delay to swap your order ("You wanna go?") can sometimes help facilitate better teamwork.

Learn Your Team
Make an effort to understand the capabilities of the people you are sitting at the table with, as well as share your character's. This could look like adding a little out-character mechanical insights to your character introduction to accompany your in-character description, and listening / taking notes when others do. It could look like sharing your character sheet somehow. Or even, during a Scenario, which often have 2-4 fights, during the first fight, paying extra close attention to what everyone else is doing, and decide whether it means sticking to what you chose initially in terms of preparation and actions, or, changing it up to try and be a better fit / play a missing role / etc.

...

Anyhow, those are my insights so far. Going to shout out Leo above specifically for a time when I was a visiting PC to his home playgroup during a Convention game (somewhat of a sixth wheel), and he reached out to me ahead of time to describe the team dynamic, and I was able to join that group in a way that did both of those things above, and I had a great time playing.

Cheers!

[Watery Soup]

I think if people have expectations, they should be honest about them.

The alternative is pretending expectations don't exist, and then being upset when they're not met. If stated expectations are unreasonable, people can discuss them openly; if unstated expectations are unreasonable, nobody knows what's going on until the inevitable, epic blowup.

That being said, I do think Doug meant his "expectations" as friendly advice. At the very least, he has not said anything when my characters in his games (him being a GM or a player) have failed the standards he's set in his post. Seems like a pretty high bar but good advice.

[TwilightKnight]

Watery Soup wrote:

I think if people have expectations, they should be honest about them.

Agreed. For instance, I know my Roll20 requirements are a bit more rigid than some GMs, so I enter them on the table information, or for my own Warhorn site, on the entry page. I want players to be informed so there are no surprises when they come to play.

Our own event page:

Welcome to our personal Warhorn page. A place to schedule our irregularly occurring game sessions for the PFS community.
When you register to play, please follow the links included with the individual session to access the Roll20 VTT, the sign-in/reporting sheet, and what we will use for audio/video communication during the game (usually our Discord chat channel). We use an excel spreadsheet in google sheets for the sign-in/reporting sheet. Please complete ALL the information related to your character.
If you need any assistance using Roll20, please let us know in advance

Players are expected to:

*indicate their class and level in Warhorn when you register. This will help other players determine if their character choice is the best one for the session
*notify us when you register if you will be replaying
*complete the sign-in/reporting sheet at least 24 hours prior to the session start time. This will allow us to finalize the challenge points that determine which sub-tier we will play and start completing the chronicle sheets in advance
*There are blank character sheets on the VTT if you need one
*All approved pregenerated characters are available on the Roll20 table. If you need to use one, please let us know at least 24 hours prior to the session start so we can assign it to you
*import a complete character sheet into Roll20 at least 24 hours prior to the session. We use macros to roll secret checks and they pull data from the character sheet. Also, we generally audit character sheets so please verify all the information is accurate and complete. If we do not understand something, we will contact you for clarification
*roll dice using the Roll20 system tools

If there are circumstances that prevent you from meeting one or all of the above, please let us know ASAP (in advance). We know sometimes people play in back-to-back events and may need more time to enter the most recent information.

REGISTRATION NOTE: For our public games, we generally grant immediate/early access for individual game signups to our friends and players we know from our local organized play lodges. If you do not fall into one of those two categories, you may not receive access to sign up until closer to the event date, generally a week prior to the scheduled event. We base this "preferred" status on your registered name, so if you use an online avatar/email we are unfamiliar with, you will not be granted preferred status. If you believe you are classified incorrectly or experience a problem with registering, please contact us directly.
If you have any questions please let us know,
Explore! Report! Cooperate!

[Thomas Keller]

Was just looking this over again and trying to imagine what I would have done if my first GM in Pathfinder Society had given me a set of rules for how I had to play. I don't think I'd have ever played a single game. New players have enough pressure on them, and some, like myself, have a lot of anxiety about playing with strangers. They just don't need this extra pressure. If they ask for help, sure. But please don't push this on brand new players. It can do more harm than good.

[TriOmegaZero]

These aren't rules. They're advice from experience.

[Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion]

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

These aren't rules. They're advice from experience.

The tone is (unintentionally I hope) pretty hostile.

It smacks of "Here is how I expect you to play, if you are not playing this way, you are doing it wrong."

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

These aren't rules. They're just strongly worded suggestions on how you play and what you should do. Not rules at all. Guidelines.

[Nefreet]

Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

These aren't rules. They're advice from experience.

The tone is (unintentionally I hope) pretty hostile.

It smacks of "Here is how I expect you to play, if you are not playing this way, you are doing it wrong."

See above.

[TwilightKnight]

I think some people might be conflating two different types of "advice." I agree that we should not be forcing subjective, unsolicited advice on players, especially new ones. Things like which weapon their character should use, the best tactics, which spells/feats to select, etc. Don't assume that you know best how to build or play someone else's character.

OTOH, tangible "rules" should be provided so the player is aware and can be prepared for what to expect. Things like expectations for how to sign up to play at a particular event, which VTT (and character sheet) the GM intends to use, etc. At a live event, will the GM provide dice/minis or must players provide them for themselves?

Some GMs even go to the extent of warning potential players that a scenario is especially social and they may want to reconsider bringing their anti-social barbarian, or the scenario is especially combat heavy and they may not want to play their hyper-social PC. Or the scenario could run long so players should be ready to take their turn when it comes up. If they cannot decide their actions in a fairly quick fashion, they will be placed into delay until they are ready to act.

These are really no different than the core assumptions and behavior policy that we impress upon players.

[Doug Hahn]

Thomas Keller wrote:

Was just looking this over again and trying to imagine what I would have done if my first GM in Pathfinder Society had given me a set of rules for how I had to play. I don't think I'd have ever played a single game. New players have enough pressure on them, and some, like myself, have a lot of anxiety about playing with strangers. They just don't need this extra pressure. If they ask for help, sure. But please don't push this on brand new players. It can do more harm than good.

Can you point me to where it's implied I would force this advice on new players (or any players)? I'd like to avoid giving that impression in the future. I mentioned how if I could, I'd change "expectations" to "hopes". It's unfortunately too late to edit a post on these boards.

That said, I still think it's possible to have a mutually respectful and honest conversation about shared expectations.

--

Like TwilightKnight, I have started to give players a heads-up to set the tone and hopes fo the table. For example: "This one is RP-centric so put on those hats," "lots of investigation tonight so take good notes," or even "there are challenging encounters in this one… choose your school items carefully and be ready to take efficient turns."

Giving a little as a GM can help set a good tone and get players in the right mindset so they don't feel things are a "gotcha."

However, I never tell people how to play. They can find resources like this one on their own, or ask others for help when they want.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

"Be ready to take efficient turns" is telling people how to play. You don't even see it.

And whose definition of efficient? Yours, mine, player b, player c?

[TOZ]

I mean, when your turn takes twice as long as everyone else’s, it’s pretty obvious.

[Doug Hahn]

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:

"Be ready to take efficient turns" is telling people how to play. You don't even see it.

And whose definition of efficient? Yours, mine, player b, player c?

That quote is not actually defining anything to the player, though.

This is about giving a heads-up about the scenario that the player is seated for. They can do whatever they want with the info.

Keep in mind that Org Play events often operate under strict time constraints (e.g. 4-hour sessions with hard stop at store closing); a note about turn efficiency (however the player chooses to personally define it) is often given when the GM is concerned that the party will not have enough time to complete the mission.

I won't define "efficient" for anyone but I will tell you that when teams are set up to succeed and when they understand the context of the scenario, the game tends to be more enjoyable for all involved.

In part, that enjoyment derives from clear, upfront, and mutual communication.

[Tristan d'Ambrosius]

Without definition the term efficient is pointless. Player A May play what they believe is an efficient turn. By their definition it is efficient. But does not meet the GM's idea of an efficient turn. Throwing off the time turn by turn of that precious 4hr hard stop.

Player A did exactly what they were told to do by the GM. They played how they were told to by the GM. Because yes, the GM told them how to play, efficiently.

"Be ready to take efficient turns" is telling someone how to play.

[Doug Hahn]

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:

Player A May play what they believe is an efficient turn. By their definition it is efficient.

That's exactly right. The ask is essentially that players try their best with their "tactical hats" on!

--

I can only speak of my own experience, but helping to set the tone for the evening (and giving players a chance to speak on it too if they want, listening is important too) has proven helpful at my tables and increased player buy-in overall. Player feedback on this has been specific and positive, in fact: some players really enjoy RP and this small note has helped them get into a mindset for tactics and curb their expectations when a scenario is combat-heavy.

I don't know what's getting lost in translation here but you seem to be mixing up a pre-game note from the gm with constant micromanagement.

--

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:

that precious 4hr hard stop.

I wonder if that was sarcasm, but the stop time IS precious. We want to be good guests at our venues so we're invited back.

Even online when we might not have a hard stop time, good health and internet hygiene are important; it is also precious in those situations.

[Blake's Tiger]

You should tell people how to play a game. If you don't tell them how to play a game, how do they know how to play the game?

New-to-PF2: "I move and move again. I'm done."
GM: "In PF2, you have 3 actions each turn. You have one action left over."

So that's somehow inconsiderate?

Frazzled-Player: "I cast magic missile!"
GM: "If you cast it there, it will trigger an AOO from Bugbear 2. You could take a 5 ft step there and cast without danger."

So this is also somehow inconsiderate?

GM: "Roll your attack."
New-to-PF: *Stares at the rainbow collection of multiple sided shapes in front of him*
GM: "Roll the d20. That one. Now add your to hit modifier to that number."

So this is offensive?

Experienced-PFSer to New-to-PFS: "The parties in PFS can be pretty random sometimes, and not every party will have a cleric dedicated to casting cure light wounds or channeling, so we find it useful to use our first 2 PP to buy a wand of cure light wounds."

So this is rude?

No. This is rude:

Experienced-PFSer to New-to-PFS in the middle of a tense battle: "Dude! Why didn't you buy a wand of cure light wounds with your first 2 PP? Now we're all going to die!"

This is rude, too:

PF-Player1: "I'm bringing my halfling champion."
PF-Player2: "Ugh. Halflings are terrible. You should rebuild to a Human Champion, follow Ragathiel as your deity, take Domain Initiate for the Zeal domain spell, and use your ancestry feat for Natural Ambition to take Ranged Reprisal right now before we get started."

The interaction could also manifest in a completely different way:

PF-Player1: "I'm bringing my halfling champion."
Table: "Cool."
PF-Player1: *Experiences frustration the whole game as he never boosted strength and is using a sling.* "My character sucks!"
PF-Player2: "What did you want your character to be able to do? Would you like some help?"

Or another way:

PF-Player1: "I'm bringing my halfling champion."
Table: "Cool."
PF-Player1: *Having never boosted strength and using a sling, does not manage to contribute too much to the combats.*
PF-Player2: "Hey. Would you like some pointers on your build?"
PF-Player1: "Nah."
PF-Player2: "OK."

[Blake's Tiger]

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:

"Be ready to take efficient turns" is telling people how to play. You don't even see it.

And whose definition of efficient? Yours, mine, player b, player c?

Honestly, ultimately "mine" as the GM, because I'll be the one trying to get things on track if turns are not efficient, but there's not definition beyond I know it when I see it.

My son's efficient turn is going to look very different from my efficient turn when we're playing. Hopefully, a given GM is considerate of my son's limitations and doesn't expect him to be as efficient as me. However, the GM should put a limit on how much time my son takes to make a decision on him turn (and on me, too).

[TriOmegaZero]

What people are complaining about is rudely telling people how to play. Doug’s comments read as rude to some, not rude to others.