Wacky class ideas: minion necro


Advice


So... there was a build for PF1 based around being a necromancer with a bunch of beefy permanent necro minions, and some people liked it quite a lot. It... kind of marginalized martial classes hard, though, and also took up huge amounts of combat time for all of the minion turns, and that's not so hot. PF2 ran screaming in the other direction, and now "minion necro" means that you have a corpse that you raise through a ritual and can sort of inefficiently use your actions to nude around the board. It's got basically no support from your class at all.

But... there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the concept of the guy who's basically a wrangler of the undead. It would just take some effort to build one in a way that wouldn't break the game, or consume vastly more spotlight time in battles than everyone else. So....

Actually, thinking about it, the best bet on this one is probably the summoner chassis, where your summon is "a smallish horde of shambling undead that sticks together". The synthesis version would be "same thing, but I'm in the middle". Possibly an archetype off of it.

So... zombie summoner, anyone? If you were going to start with a Summoner and try to turn it into a reasonably satisfying "skeletons shamble at my command" minion necro, what woudl it take to get the feel of it right, and make it fun to play?


Dhampir summoner (with beast master, familiar master, and undead eidolon) coupled with the Dhampir feat that turns your animal companions/familiars into undead plus the animate dead spell should satisfy the necromancer horde vibe (at least it will for me).


I built this in houserules, if you want to try it ?

Undead Lord Archetype

gives you an undead companion based on several basic undead templates: ghoul, zombie, skeleton or phantasm.


Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

So consider the damphir ability to turn your companion into an undead combined with the cavalier 20th lvl feat that quickens you to command your mount. Undead mount, 2 undead minions from create undead and an independent familiar and you still have 1 action to cast true target for your minions to ravage away.


Nyhme wrote:

Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

So consider the damphir ability to turn your companion into an undead combined with the cavalier 20th lvl feat that quickens you to command your mount. Undead mount, 2 undead minions from create undead and an independent familiar and you still have 1 action to cast true target for your minions to ravage away.

But the minions have to be 4 levels bellow you, meaning they'll always struggle a lot.

Personally I'm more of a fan of having some around and then moving them in order to final sacrifice them.


AlastarOG wrote:
Nyhme wrote:

Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

So consider the damphir ability to turn your companion into an undead combined with the cavalier 20th lvl feat that quickens you to command your mount. Undead mount, 2 undead minions from create undead and an independent familiar and you still have 1 action to cast true target for your minions to ravage away.

But the minions have to be 4 levels bellow you, meaning they'll always struggle a lot.

Personally I'm more of a fan of having some around and then moving them in order to final sacrifice them.

Thats true but you could also be an evil draconic sorcerer with bloodline mutation or entreat forebears that also cast the ritual raveners reanimation so you'd be effectively 2 levels higher. I mean you do need to get the rare ritual and then gamble with failing the ritual but man that would be fun.


I .... fail to see how this is pertinent?


AlastarOG wrote:
I .... fail to see how this is pertinent?

Pertinent is the ritual is the only way to actually make yourself an undead. And it increases your level by 2. So a 20th lvl sorcerer could then have a 17th lvl undead minion while being a dracolich(ravener)


Nyhme wrote:
Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

It looks like it's a bit better than that, even. You can minionize on a simple success. Crit suceed is the one that lets you give the mindless ones a permanent order (and thus not spend a minion spot on them)

@AlastarOG looks like a pretty straight port form the Beastmaster. I'd encourage you to run a find across that thing for "Beastmaster" and "primal". Also... the idea of a "mature" undead companion is a little odd. Still, I'm not opposed to the idea of the archetype shift in principle.

Mostly, though, I'd wanted something that went beyond a few class feats. The minion necro used to be most of the build budget. In some cases, it was effectively *all* of the build budget. Now, those were degenerate and bad, but I'd still like to offer something where it's core, and not an add-on, and that means having it be built into the class features.


The animate dead ritual is a little more competitive for level than summoning. If your DM is willing to apply the death and dying rules to them, you can get close to the feel by playing a summoner and mixing animate and summoning. Bonus points if your DM allows you to raise a troop (which are a little less liable to just die in a fee solid hit


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I managed a pretty decent undead commander myself. It's not without a few issues.


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To build off of Alchemic_Genius, here's a build that we came up with for a Reddit user not long ago.

To begin with, this is a build that requires A LOT of GM buy-in. Not only are they going to have to be okay with you getting access to an Uncommon ritual (Create Undead), they will need be okay with you using that ritual to raise a troop of undead. Additionally, while you could create a neutral or potentially even good version of this build, this is very specifically an evil build. It's very much going to need to fit into a campaign rather than something you introduce into just any game. Finally, you're likely going to want some help from your teammates, so they may have to invest a few skill proficiencies to give you a hand.

With all of those prerequisites met (which, let's admit, is quite a few), we can get to work on our...

Necromancer Lord of the Undead

Level 1
Ancestry: Human (any)
Background: Herbalist (anything, really, so long as we get that Wisdom)
Class: Cleric

Str 10, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 16

Quick explanation: We're going to want a few early feats from Cleric, so grabbing Natural Ambition will save us some headache. I like Herbalist here to grab Natural Medicine to take advantage of our much higher Wisdom score for Treating Wounds. And, of course, cleric is our go to route for raising the dead.

Ancestry Feat: Natural Ambition (Reach Spell)
Cleric Doctrine: Cloistered Cleric (gives us Domain Initiate)
Deity: Urgathoa

Alright, let's get this started proper. Urgathoa, as the goddess of undeath, is a perfect fit for our cleric. Her anathema already fits with our plans and she gives us access to some fine domains. Speaking of which, let's talk Domain Initiate. While you can certainly take Undeath here for thematic reasons, it's not something that I really love since it only gives a melee range attack and it's advanced domain spell won't be as helpful as a certain other domain spell. What I'd actually recommend is grabbing the Magic domain. It's buff, but one we can throw on our minions later and give them a little more survivability in combat (especially shoring up one the troops biggest weaknesses: magical AoE spells). Speaking of which, this is a good time to talk about our Natural Ambition feat: Reach Spell. On the battlefield, you're going to want to stay away from... well, just about everything. But also, some of our most helpful spells both now and down the line are going to want us to get up close.

Let's talk magic and the level 1 cleric. Let's be clear (to both you and your party), your role is not battlefield healing. That's not your deal. After combat, you can patch people up with your Natural Medicine, but during combat, you're there to blast enemies and debuff anyone who poses a threat. This means that spells like goblin pox, fear, and ray of enfeeblement should all feel quite at home on your spell list. I personally like goblin pox for debuffing opponents as it sticks around a bit more than fear, though the enemy can spend an action to remove the sickened condition. Of course, we're really looking to blast with our harm spells. With four a day, that's enough to throw one out in every meaningful combat and finish just about on time to take a rest. If we want to conserve spell slots, chill touch and -potentially - divine lance. It also doesn't hurt to be ready with guidance or forbidding ward. We may be here to blast, but that doesn't mean we can't help our allies.

Now all of this is well and good, but it doesn't exactly sound like we're summoning a horde of undead any time soon. Well, we're going to need to get our hands on the create undead ritual first. Not only that, but the first troop undead that we'll want to create is level 4, which means we're going to need to be level 8 before we can get started with that. So let's jump ahead a bit.

Level 8
Class feats: Harming Hands, Expanded Domain Initiate (Decay), Cast Down, Advanced Domain (Magic)
Skills: Make sure that Religion is Master
Ability Boosts: Keep Wisdom and Charisma high

Alright, quick breakdown of our feat choices. Harming Hands will help both our blasting and our healing of our undead minions and now has more impact since we have a larger dice pool. The Decay domain gives us another blast/undead heal and can help out in specific Hardness situations while the Advanced Domain for Magic can allow us to buff up our harm spells. Cast Down is truly one of the most powerful feats for Clerics, giving them a ranged "Trip" to keep opponents at bay while blasting. Unfortunately, it usually ends up only in the toolbox of evil clerics or requires a bit of feat investment to make it work.

But now we've (hopefully) got our hands on a ritual that will let us raise up an army. Spend some downtime to create a shambler army or four. At 300 gp a pop, consider these minions as a part of your consumable expenses (not to say that you should neglect penning or buying a scroll or two). To do a quick breakdown of the math of the ritual, the DC is likely to be 28 (DC 23 for a 4th level spell, +5 for being very hard) and you're likely to have a +19 to Religion checks (+14 for level and proficency, +4 Wisdom, +1 item bonus [likely from a Thurible of Revelation or potentially a Serene Mutagen, especially helpful if you have a Alchemist friend willing to help you out]). This gives you about a 60% chance of success to raise the shambler army. If you have an ally critically succeed (against the much easier DC 23), that jumps up to a 70% chance to pull it off. Not bad!

Now you've got a massive minion that can spread out to defend you as a mobile wall. You don't even need to use them for combat as their numbers alone keeps you rather safe as enemies have to hack their way through your lifeless goons to make it to you (and potentially more ranged teammates). Meanwhile, you can blast away or bolster your team as you have been doing up until now. You can even toss out a few harms or withering grasp to keep your zombie horde going. And as they attack all adjacent creatures or creatures within their squares using a basic Reflex save, they function as a weaker 1-action fireball for you. Just use your Command A Minion action to have them Form Up and unleash a 1-action Shambling Onslaught. Not too bad when you still have two actions, yourself, to use.

While this build is "done" at level 8, that's not to say that you can't take it further. The next "level" of troops are at 11, meaning you'll need to be level 15 to both cast the ritual and to control them as a minion. Until then, the shambler army will slowly start to fall off as an effective strategy, but they remain an effective wall. Even still, enemies will eventually be able to bypass them as they gain flying or AoE abilities powerful enough to wipe them out with a single attack.

The normal tactics of a blaster don't go away as you level: grab wands for the spells you want to cast often, staves, and scrolls to supplement your spell slot supply. Take advantage of weakened opponents before going in for bigger attacks while protecting your party. You can also supplement your forces with other created undead with more powerful abilities like shadows, mummies, and even zombie dragons.

As your power grows, so too do your forces! Bend the world to your will!

If you're using Free Archetype rules, or just want to increase your focus on creating undead, consider the Ritualist Dedication, especially if you're lacking on downtime or party members to aid with your creations.


Nyhme wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
Nyhme wrote:

Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

So consider the damphir ability to turn your companion into an undead combined with the cavalier 20th lvl feat that quickens you to command your mount. Undead mount, 2 undead minions from create undead and an independent familiar and you still have 1 action to cast true target for your minions to ravage away.

But the minions have to be 4 levels bellow you, meaning they'll always struggle a lot.

Personally I'm more of a fan of having some around and then moving them in order to final sacrifice them.

Thats true but you could also be an evil draconic sorcerer with bloodline mutation or entreat forebears that also cast the ritual raveners reanimation so you'd be effectively 2 levels higher. I mean you do need to get the rare ritual and then gamble with failing the ritual but man that would be fun.

Requirements: You must be an evil dragon.

Nothing in the draconic sorcerer makes you a dragon. At least not for the 1 day cast time.


Guntermench wrote:
Nyhme wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
Nyhme wrote:

Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

So consider the damphir ability to turn your companion into an undead combined with the cavalier 20th lvl feat that quickens you to command your mount. Undead mount, 2 undead minions from create undead and an independent familiar and you still have 1 action to cast true target for your minions to ravage away.

But the minions have to be 4 levels bellow you, meaning they'll always struggle a lot.

Personally I'm more of a fan of having some around and then moving them in order to final sacrifice them.

Thats true but you could also be an evil draconic sorcerer with bloodline mutation or entreat forebears that also cast the ritual raveners reanimation so you'd be effectively 2 levels higher. I mean you do need to get the rare ritual and then gamble with failing the ritual but man that would be fun.

Requirements: You must be an evil dragon.

Nothing in the draconic sorcerer makes you a dragon. At least not for the 1 day cast time.

I believe what they are referring to is the Bloodline Mutation feat. It gives you the trait of whatever type of thing you are becoming, and a handful of other goodies.

You'd have to be level twenty for it but, with that feat and an evil alignment, you would be an evil dragon and could perform the ritual. How that would work out I have zero idea, but I guess if the game is already at 20 who really cares too much?


Flagging thread to say like adding rules.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Nyhme wrote:
Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

It looks like it's a bit better than that, even. You can minionize on a simple success. Crit suceed is the one that lets you give the mindless ones a permanent order (and thus not spend a minion spot on them)

@AlastarOG looks like a pretty straight port form the Beastmaster. I'd encourage you to run a find across that thing for "Beastmaster" and "primal". Also... the idea of a "mature" undead companion is a little odd. Still, I'm not opposed to the idea of the archetype shift in principle.

Mostly, though, I'd wanted something that went beyond a few class feats. The minion necro used to be most of the build budget. In some cases, it was effectively *all* of the build budget. Now, those were degenerate and bad, but I'd still like to offer something where it's core, and not an add-on, and that means having it be built into the class features.

Yes its a simple port from beastmaster cause I wanted it to be as close cut as possible for balance reasons. Main changes are i cut some feats, the focus spells are different, and I gave 4 new base forms for the undead.

I'm definitely gonna run that Ctrl+F again!


Perpdepog wrote:
Guntermench wrote:
Nyhme wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:
Nyhme wrote:

Create undead ritual on pg 411 of the crb. Dont need anything wacky at all. Create if you dont crit succeed then send them off to do a singular command crit succeed you have a minion.

So consider the damphir ability to turn your companion into an undead combined with the cavalier 20th lvl feat that quickens you to command your mount. Undead mount, 2 undead minions from create undead and an independent familiar and you still have 1 action to cast true target for your minions to ravage away.

But the minions have to be 4 levels bellow you, meaning they'll always struggle a lot.

Personally I'm more of a fan of having some around and then moving them in order to final sacrifice them.

Thats true but you could also be an evil draconic sorcerer with bloodline mutation or entreat forebears that also cast the ritual raveners reanimation so you'd be effectively 2 levels higher. I mean you do need to get the rare ritual and then gamble with failing the ritual but man that would be fun.

Requirements: You must be an evil dragon.

Nothing in the draconic sorcerer makes you a dragon. At least not for the 1 day cast time.

I believe what they are referring to is the Bloodline Mutation feat. It gives you the trait of whatever type of thing you are becoming, and a handful of other goodies.

You'd have to be level twenty for it but, with that feat and an evil alignment, you would be an evil dragon and could perform the ritual. How that would work out I have zero idea, but I guess if the game is already at 20 who really cares too much?

Fair enough I guess.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Alternatively to everything else, if your GM is willing to just houserule away the restriction against using troops with Summon X spells, you're in business-- be high level, cast spell, use horde of skeletons, I haven't noticed anything particularly overpowered about them since they're just slightly weird monsters of whatever level.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Alternatively to everything else, if your GM is willing to just houserule away the restriction against using troops with Summon X spells, you're in business-- be high level, cast spell, use horde of skeletons, I haven't noticed anything particularly overpowered about them since they're just slightly weird monsters of whatever level.

I've been looking at troops for a long time to homebrew some new ones, and tbh they're basically just janky swarms. I don't even get the given justification; it says because they are multiple discreet creatures, but again, swarms are already allowed, soooo


The colossal size is something of an issue though.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
The colossal size is something of an issue though.

True, but at least a troop's area is shapable.

"Go, my minions, and march! Claim my dark victory!"

"Lord, the hallway is only five feet wide."

"Go, my minions, and conga line! Claim my dark victory!"


AnimatedPaper wrote:
The colossal size is something of an issue though.

Yeah, you can use them to meatshield, but iirc, creatures only provide lesser cover so you can still shoot through them, and by the time troops come online, enemies have flying, climbing, etc, or AoEs


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I only want horde minionmancy if I can be a witch with a horde of flying monkeys (proceeds to cackle in the corner).


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WWHsmackdown wrote:
I only want horde minionmancy if I can be a witch with a horde of flying monkeys (proceeds to cackle in the corner).

Man, now *I* want you to be able to play a witch with a horde of flying monkeys.

I mean, I don't really want it for myself, but the cackling in the corner would be worth it. Maybe we could shoehorn "actually, this is a horde of weaker animals now" into a companion specialization for Beastmaster somehow?

Grand Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.
It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.


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Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

If you're letting the player put together four different undead minions (from the ritual) and letting them take a single action to give commands to all of them, you're breaking the game balance assumptions pretty badly. Actions are... tightly constrained in this game, and trivially going from "1 base action for 2 minion actions" to "1 base action for 8 minion actions" is a big deal


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.


Ravingdork wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.

IIRC, and this may not be in the rules yet, there is meant to be a rule about not being able to use minion creatures to control other creatures. I remember it being brought up before because the spectre can potentially take control of other people, though I think it's being saved for a newer batch of errata.


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Retheme an animal companion?


Dr A Gon wrote:
Retheme an animal companion?

Check my post earlier, already did that.


Ravingdork wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.

Speaking of that. 2 actions into 4 actions. 4 actions into 8 actions. 8 actions into 16 actions. 16 actions into 32 actions. 32 actions into 64. etc.

Its leadership all over again.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Temperans wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.

Speaking of that. 2 actions into 4 actions. 4 actions into 8 actions. 8 actions into 16 actions. 16 actions into 32 actions. 32 actions into 64. etc.

Its leadership all over again.

I'm not sure why anyone would want a minion over a free-willed friendly NPC with their full set of actions and none of the other minion limitations. I would hope for a Success over a Critical Success most of the time. You can only have 4 minions, but you can have as many allied NPCs as you want and that the GM is willing to tolerate.


Ravingdork wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.

Speaking of that. 2 actions into 4 actions. 4 actions into 8 actions. 8 actions into 16 actions. 16 actions into 32 actions. 32 actions into 64. etc.

Its leadership all over again.

I'm not sure why anyone would want a minion over a free-willed friendly NPC with their full set of actions and none of the other minion limitations. I would hope for a Success over a Critical Success most of the time. You can only have 4 minions, but you can have as many allied NPCs as you want and that the GM is willing to tolerate.

Well, crit successes do still make the created undead helpful to you, rather than just friendly, regardless of whether you make it a minion or not.


Ravingdork wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.

Speaking of that. 2 actions into 4 actions. 4 actions into 8 actions. 8 actions into 16 actions. 16 actions into 32 actions. 32 actions into 64. etc.

Its leadership all over again.

I'm not sure why anyone would want a minion over a free-willed friendly NPC with their full set of actions and none of the other minion limitations. I would hope for a Success over a Critical Success most of the time. You can only have 4 minions, but you can have as many allied NPCs as you want and that the GM is willing to tolerate.

I mean getting that many minions is hard, but its not as hard to make a chain of command.

The numbers I gave are basically: 2 actions to command + 1 action for whatever. Which can be used for any NPC.

Hence: Leadership all over again.

Grand Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

>I< would let a player that made a bunch of undead using the ritual bunch them up as a troop and control them.

It would also use these rules for a player that gets control of a troop (or even just a bunch of intelligent creatures that can listen to orders). While summoning would summon only one individual of that troop. They are not "swam", they don't have a swarm mindset. They are individuals that follow the same orders. A bunch of medium, huge, or even bigger disorderly creatures would still count as a swarm.

Creating a level 4 shambler troop would normally cost 300gp.

Using your method, you could create 16 level -1 zombie shamblers and form them into a shambler troop for only 240gp. The player saves 60gp for each such trop they decide to form.

But of course other, wiser necromancers would simply create undead "officers" that are themselves capable of creating more undead that they control. Then the necromancer controls far larger numbers of undead than the rules typically allow through their officers, for next to nothing at all.

Oh, no, they would need to cast the ritual at the level of the troop. The "bunch them" is the fluff. Sorry that I was unclear.

At least until we get an appropriate ritual for that.
For a troop of guards, you need to find a bunch of trained guards NPCs willing to listen to you.

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