If you're an ancient elf rogue with the eldritch Trickster racket, do you start with two dedication feats at level one?
If not which one do you lose and why?
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Multi-Talented has set the precedent for exemptions to dedication feat requirements being written out is why it wouldn't work RAW.
You've learned to split your focus between multiple classes with ease. You gain a 2nd-level multiclass dedication feat, even if you normally couldn't take another dedication feat until you take more feats from your current archetype.
I think heritage comes first in building your character so I believe you'd miss out on the dedication through the rogue.
It just comes down to your GM though whether they'll waive the 2 feat requirement or however they chose to solve the ability to have 2 free dedications at the same time.
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That's been the subject of debate.
In game, it seems one would have to be an Elf before anything though in the meta order of operations in PC creation is lenient (CRB says "suggested order") so that players don't lose abilities simply due to the order they choose them in. So if you lose one, you can lose either one.
But do you lose one?
Obviously in home play ask your GM, but in PFS I don't think there's an official answer either though it seems no, you can't have both archetypes.
Reasoning:
Dedications in general (and all the ones in this discussion) have this tag:
You can't select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the XXX.
With Ancient Elf you aren't selecting such a feat, you're gaining it after choosing a class. Yet it also only allows you to bypass the level requirement and no other prereqs. "Not having another archetype unless you have another two feats from it" isn't a prereq, likely because it's so clumsy and awkward! Yet in essence it functions the same. Also in essence choosing a class to gain the feat is to "select" IMO since PF2 uses casual communication. It's not computer code or legalese.
So one could rules lawyer an argument there, BUT DON'T.
It's obviously subverting the intent of the tag on every Dedication and lawyer mindsets are a horrible way to approach community recreation.
But maybe if you take that first, what does the Racket say?
It says you are choosing an archetype.
Since having another archetype means you can't do that, you wouldn't be able to do that. At least not until higher level, but then that gets wonky since those were character creation options (and even PCs made at higher levels are supposed to have been viable at each step).
So yeah, in home play ask. In official play, nearly every GM should rule against this. It takes too much weaseling and/or rules idolatry to argue.
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I'm astonished that these conflicts exist in a system that's so stripped down compared to its previous edition, especially so early in this editions life with so little released as of yet.
If it is the case that you simply don't get any benefit from the rogue racket because of your preference of ancestry, that's poor design and just feels bad! Looks like I may have to rely on my GM ignoring the RAW again for this one (assuming the RAw is that you do gain no benefit from the racket's dedication feat).
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I would love for someone to post a powerful build of an Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster so that I can better understand why this combo must be forbidden.
Well, a rogue with 2 different charisma or int based caster archetypes would have all the normal rogue stuff, 4 cantrips and an even more ridiculous number of skills than a normal rogue. So trivially gets electric arc AND telekinetic projectile plus 2 more for edge cases.
Together with full access to all the wands and scrolls from two different traditions.
Not at all sure that is too powerful but it pretty clearly is more powerful than a straight ancient rogue or a straight eldritch trickster.
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I'm astonished that these conflicts exist in a system that's so stripped down compared to its previous edition, especially so early in this editions life with so little released as of yet.
If it is the case that you simply don't get any benefit from the rogue racket because of your preference of ancestry, that's poor design and just feels bad! Looks like I may have to rely on my GM ignoring the RAW again for this one (assuming the RAw is that you do gain no benefit from the racket's dedication feat).
I don't know, it kind of feels like you could just pick a different ancestry. There's no reason that you HAVE to pick both since you are already getting a dedication feat for free. Why should you be able to be level 1 and have two dedications when everyone else has to wait till level 2 and 6 respectively? I am 100% ok with them not working together.
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What I am pretty confident they didn't expect, is for this mechanics to be exploited by taking either class and ancestry/heritage.
I don't think choosing a race and class counts as "exploiting" the games mechanics. Especially considering its picking an ancestry from a core race and a racket from a core class. (Even if the Specific options were from their first two books after core released.) I'm pretty sure pathfinder's own iconic rogue is an elf rogue after all, so I'd be amazed if they hadn't expected people to look at the options they provided for an elf rogue.
Not that it matters but I'm pretty sure eldritch trickster is considered one of the more lacklustre routes, so I doubt there's much to be gained anyway... I may be wrong about that though and if I am I'm sure someone will let us know soon.
I'm astonished that these conflicts exist in a system that's so stripped down compared to its previous edition, especially so early in this editions life with so little released as of yet.
If it is the case that you simply don't get any benefit from the rogue racket because of your preference of ancestry, that's poor design and just feels bad! Looks like I may have to rely on my GM ignoring the RAW again for this one (assuming the RAw is that you do gain no benefit from the racket's dedication feat).
You don’t have to pick that particular heritage. There are plenty of options that work together.
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I think the real question is what happens if my Ancient Elf Rogue with the Eldritch Trickster Racket also uses the Variant Rule Free Archetype? I want 3 dedication feats at 2nd! ;)
Indeed Ancient Elf with free archetype or Eldritch Rogue with same are on par with our dreaded Ancient Elf Eldritch Rogue. AFAIK, the free archetype variant is considered interesting rather than broken.
But in a party where everyone has a free dedication at level 2, so they only have the one free one instead of 2. Also, if I was the DM I wouldn't let them take a new dedication at level 2, I would make them take a level 1 rogue feat instead.
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I'm astonished that these conflicts exist in a system that's so stripped down compared to its previous edition, especially so early in this editions life with so little released as of yet.
If it is the case that you simply don't get any benefit from the rogue racket because of your preference of ancestry, that's poor design and just feels bad! Looks like I may have to rely on my GM ignoring the RAW again for this one (assuming the RAw is that you do gain no benefit from the racket's dedication feat).
I'm not sure I understand why "These features grant the same benefit, so don't take both," feels bad.
That's the only thing Ancient Elf does, so... don't take it if you're building an Eldritch Trickster. Choose a different benefit.
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The real question is it game breaking or even slightly overpowered. No it's not.
The argument that starting with 2 spell traditions is silly. An ancient elf bard, champion, cleric, druid, monk, oracle, sorcerer and witch can all start at lvl 1 with trained in all 4 traditions. Ancient elf rogue can have all 4 by 2nd lvl. All others by 3rd lvl have all 4. And that's using all pfs approved heritage/feat combination and not even slightly stretching rules.
Second argument. That's way too many skills. We are talking an elf rogue here. Ancient elf with scoundrel has all but 2 skills. Ancient elf mastermind can have every single skill. And both of these fall in the every magic tradition by 2nd lvl.
From here it's feat choices as you level. If someone did take 2 spellcasting dedications and they wanted to maximize casting. They would only get a rogue feat that was dedicated to increasing spells at 1st, 2nd and 16th lvls. That's missing out on pretty much everything to make the rogue a rogue. Plus your spell attacks and dcs. Will be lagging by 2 lvls for your 2nd casting dedication.
I can think of a ton of rogue builds vastly more powerful than any combination of ancient elf/eldritch trickster.
Eldritch Trickster is the most lacking of the rogue rackets. If someone wants to lean in on their caster, why not?
Edit: and if you're wondering how I got the elf starting with all traditions. 3 or 4 backgrounds have arcane sense as the free skill feat. If they have primal casting from their class they take share thoughts. If they have occult casting from their class they take wildborn magic. If they have divine casting dealers choice. Then pick a dedication with the last tradition. For the rogue same thing, 2nd lvl minot magic pick your missing tradition.
That's a way to answer an Advice question, not a way to answer a Rules question.
If I decide nothing is gamebreaking about the combination and it will work fine at my table, and tell my players that, that works great.
If I decide the combination is not overpowered and tell random people that means the combination works fine and they can safely expect it to work at someone else's table I would be lying to them.
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My point is that the question here is a rules question in a rules forum. Answering that rules question has value for a lot of people who play online with different groups, and have things go more smoothly with a shared understanding of what the rules are before we start overruling some of them for our own tables, or for people that play in the large organized play campaign.
Treating that question as though it were invalid and only an assessment of whether the combination is overpowered is the real question, as you say, doesn't actually help with that and dismisses a lot of valid reasons for people to care about the answer to the original question.
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Ancient Elf:
"... You must still meet its other prerequisites to gain the feat."
Eldrich Trickter:
"...though you must meet its other prerequisites."
Part of the prerequisites for all dedications include: "Special: You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the xxx archetype."
Seems straightforward to me that it's 'no'.
Ancient Elf:
"... You must still meet its other prerequisites to gain the feat."
Eldrich Trickter:
"...though you must meet its other prerequisites."
Part of the prerequisites for all dedications include: "Special: You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the xxx archetype."
Seems straightforward to me that it's 'no'.
This isn't my post, but I favorited it anyway.
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These discussions sometimes seem silly to me. The number one rule for basically any game (which includes pathfinder) is that specific overrides the general rule.
I have two character options that do not exclude each other specifically, and both grant a dedication.
The general rule is that a dedication can't be taken unless you have two other feats from previous dedications.
Clearly this is not possible in this scenario. Do we then say the specific rules for these options just.... don't work because of the general rule? No. Specific rules that override general rules often do so implicitly when there is a conflict.
The simplest and most straightforward method of resolving the conflict is that if the rules say you can take the option... IT WORKS.
Namely, you get two dedications. both require you to meet any prerequisites due to their wording, except for the limitation preventing you from taking the dedication as that would cause the general rule of dedications to override the specific rule of the option allowing you to take it.
Thus you need to meet the stat prereqs for each dedication (and not have the dedication be your base class) but otherwise you take two dedication feats.
Simple. Easy, and you can move on with your life.
Alternatively, the DM can invoke rule zero and just say you can't take both of them.
Your choice.
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It is a bit off topic, but thief wouldn't work with shurikens because they aren't finesse
Shuriken are both Agile and reload 0 so they qualify for the double-triple shot/multishot stance line and sneak attack: thief dex to damage requires melee finesse attacks so it's got more than one reason why I'm pretty sure the intent wasn't to add dex damage.
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Remember that Ancient elf Eldritch rogue can start without any dedication with this build:
Ancestry
+2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con, Free: +2Con
Optional Flaw:
-2 Int, -2 Dex, +2 Con
Background:
+2 Str, +2Con
Class:
+2 Cha
Choosen attributes:
+2 Int, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Con
Final Score:
Str: 12
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 12
There is no valid option of dedication with this score.
So BOTH dedications will not give anything.
And on the topic:
Ancient Elf
Choose a class other than your own. You gain the multiclass dedication feat for that class, even though you don’t meet its level prerequisite. You must still meet its other prerequisites to gain the feat.
Eldritch Trickster
Choose a multiclass archetype that has a basic, expert, and master spellcasting feat. You gain that archetype's dedication feat as a bonus feat even though you don't meet its level prerequisite, though you must meet its other prerequisites. For you, the Magical Trickster rogue feat has a prerequisite of 2nd level instead of 4th level. You can choose the spellcasting ability score for the multiclass archetype you chose as your key ability score.
Archetype Wizard
Prerequisites Intelligence 14
You cast spells like a wizard, gaining a spellbook with four common arcane cantrips of your choice. You gain the Cast a Spell activity. You can prepare two cantrips each day from your spellbook. You're trained in arcane spell attack rolls and spell DCs. Your key spellcasting ability for wizard archetype spells is Int, and they are arcane wizard spells. You become trained in Arcana; if you were already trained in Arcana, you instead become trained in a skill of your choice.
Special You can’t select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype.
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You GAIN the feat, the only "prerequisite" is the attribute.
The "Special" says you cant select, but you gained it, its not "optional" to gain, is not you gain if you can, is not you gain if you are not an Ancient Elf/Edritch Trickster, its you GAIN period.
Thats how I handle it until an official errata or FAQ is released.
The book was released over a year ago, plenty of time to release an errata, FAQ or blog note at least.
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Indeed the Prerequisites of feats are clearly delineated. And the Special here is a restriction and not part of the Prerequisites.
That said, considering the strong diverging opinions on this as exemplified by this thread, do not go for this combo in PFS because of table variance, and for homegames, ask your GM first, as always.
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I agree with Samir's reading of RAW, but with the caveat that you'd have to 'pay off' both special lines before you could take a third.
Which means that for my free archetype games, I just add the line from multi-talented to both options I think, I don't have to commit it to a document for a while. Alternatively, I would rule you can take a third archetype at 2nd BUT must pay back ALL THREE before taking a fourth, you probably wouldn't want a fourth though.
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Indeed the Prerequisites of feats are clearly delineated. And the Special here is a restriction and not part of the Prerequisites.
I was planning on staying out of this, but I about doubled over laughing at the amount of hair splitting needed to decide that a 'special restriction preventing selection of this feat' and a 'prerequisite' are somehow different.
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Indeed the Prerequisites of feats are clearly delineated. And the Special here is a restriction and not part of the Prerequisites.I was planning on staying out of this, but I about doubled over laughing at the amount of hair splitting needed to decide that a 'special restriction preventing selection of this feat' and a 'prerequisite' are somehow different.
Exactly. People just want to find ways to break the game, which completely baffles me. The game is more fun when it is balanced, not when you can play a god among men and one shot everything.
If you guys want two archetypes at level 1 talk to your GM, don't try to make the case that the rules INTENDED for it to work this way when it obviously doesn't.
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Indeed the Prerequisites of feats are clearly delineated. And the Special here is a restriction and not part of the Prerequisites.I was planning on staying out of this, but I about doubled over laughing at the amount of hair splitting needed to decide that a 'special restriction preventing selection of this feat' and a 'prerequisite' are somehow different.Exactly. People just want to find ways to break the game, which completely baffles me. The game is more fun when it is balanced, not when you can play a god among men and one shot everything.
If you guys want two archetypes at level 1 talk to your GM, don't try to make the case that the rules INTENDED for it to work this way when it obviously doesn't.
"Obviously" and "clearly" are loaded words in rules threads. If it was that obvious or clear, we would not be having this debate.
And when there is a line specifically titled Prerequisites, and another one pretty far from it which is specifically titled Special, I am baffled that some people try to argue that they are the same.
To each their own, I guess.
And I am still waiting for the "god among men" Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster build that can really "one shot everything".
the special at the very least confers creator intent in that you're not supposed to have multiple archetype "dips" at once.
Multi-Talented is the only exception to this right now and a multiclass dedication at lvl 9 is much less valuable than it is at lvl 1.
idk if there's broken builds out there or anything, I could see champion dedication being a strong addition to the magical trickster but that's pretty much it.
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I'm surprised only on person has mentioned the Multitalented feat so far. It was literally the first reply and everyone seems to have ignored or forgotten about it's existence.
Multitalented has the exact same wording as the options mentioned; You select a multiclass archetype feat. Multitalented is the only one of those that explicitly allows you to bypass the special requirement.
Everyone seems to be focusing on the line "you must meet its other prerequisites" from the two options. That line doesn't overwrite anything, only the part before it does: "You gain that archetype's dedication feat as a bonus feat even though you don't meet its level prerequisite..."
This means the ONLY thing that is changed about the requirements to take the dedication feats is the level requirement. You still need to meet all other requirements and prerequisites.
Technically, in order for me to take a feat at any level I just need to meet the prerequisites, but that still doesn't let me take two dedication feats in a row, because the Special part of the feat overwrites the prerequisites. Multitalented is the only thing that specifically says it can be chosen without needing two feats in another dedication, thus it's the only way you can gain another dedication without meeting the Special requirement of the feats.
Think of the special line of adding to the prerequisites of all other dedication feats as soon as you take the first one. It specifically alters what is required to select another dedication, so unless something specifically overwrites that, you must follow the rule it is adding.