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That can easily come back as mutagens in some horror expansion.
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I sure hope so. The Alchemist is in a really bad place in 2e, compared to the class fantasy it had in 1e.
I'm hoping there will be some class feats in that vein too, eventually. Until then, a way to play that concept in 2e would be to go with the Fleshwarp Ancestry. One of their heritages explicitly mentions that one of the ways you were created was via an alchemical process, and the ancestry feats you can choose play very well into the body horror tropes.
Man, I hope so!
Part of the issue is they are trying to distinguish it from magic, which means alchemy is usually more subtle. But I too hope we get tentacles and tumors back in the alchemist.
In first edition, The Alchemist had
class featsdiscoveries that allowed them to grow a tentacle, vestigial arms, a parasitic twin. They could mummify themselves, grow insect like wings. Their familiar could become a tumor on their body, which is an ability not shared by the alchemical familiar in second edition.The 2e alchemist can't do any of that. And, given that long term buffs are problematic in 2e, and the fact that there's not one single Alchemist feat that fits that theme so far, I'm actually concerned that those abilities aren't coming back.
I'm also wondering if I'm in the minority here, or even the only one, since I haven't seen anyone else talking about it...
This technically can already exist in the Fleshwarp ancestry, as they do get ancestry feats that do just as you describe.
That being said, it would be nice for those options to not be tied to a Rare ancestry.
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Part of the issue is they are trying to distinguish it from magic, which means alchemy is usually more subtle. But I too hope we get tentacles and tumors back in the alchemist.
I really fail to see how this is a relevant issue in terms of denying it from the PF2 Alchemist for as long as we have. Alchemy isn't magic. This distinguishment has been both developed and quantified since the beginning of PF2, the relevant traits already cover this sort of thing. It's not like the existing Alchemy feats and features are magical in practice, they only affect their alchemy and little else. In fact, even the PF1 versions weren't magical: You couldn't use a Dispel Magic to remove the tumor or limb, for example. Or a Mage's Disjunction if you really wanted.
Heck, not much magic, if any, does this in PF2, meaning magic is a non-factor. It seems mostly tied to ancestry stuff, granting claws, tails, bites, etc. Maybe it could be infringing on their territory too much, but honestly, building around natural attacks usually means you don't use those basic attacks, since most natural attacks are stronger and come automatically with your choice of building towards using them.
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I'm actually not a huge fan of the "Totally not magical, but really kinda magical" place that alchemy inhabits in PF2. I mean, you throw around vials of some liquid that is so cold that it physically damages someone when they are struck with it, and you made that liquid out of some odds and ends you happen to have on hand in a few seconds. Feels pretty magical to me.
You have elixers that can make someone see in the dark, run faster, grow thicker skin, enhance their wit... etc.
This is all what I would consider "magic" in any other setting, in the same way that Alchemy is equated to magic in the real world. It's always been my opinion that PF2 Alchemist is stuck in this not-magical guy, not-mundane guy niche that just didn't get fleshed out enough. Re-adding body horror class feats would help a bit, and we have no reason to believe that those sorts of abilities aren't in the cards to be included somewhere down the road.
Especially with PF2 lore leaning a bit more heavily (from my point of view) into Elder Mythos aligned themes. The playtest was basically a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a few interjected high fantasy elements. Complete with a Mu Spore!
I'm actually not a huge fan of the "Totally not magical, but really kinda magical" place that alchemy inhabits in PF2. I mean, you throw around vials of some liquid that is so cold that it physically damages someone when they are struck with it, and you made that liquid out of some odds and ends you happen to have on hand in a few seconds. Feels pretty magical to me.
You have elixers that can make someone see in the dark, run faster, grow thicker skin, enhance their wit... etc.
This is all what I would consider "magic" in any other setting, in the same way that Alchemy is equated to magic in the real world. It's always been my opinion that PF2 Alchemist is stuck in this not-magical guy, not-mundane guy niche that just didn't get fleshed out enough. Re-adding body horror class feats would help a bit, and we have no reason to believe that those sorts of abilities aren't in the cards to be included somewhere down the road.
Especially with PF2 lore leaning a bit more heavily (from my point of view) into Elder Mythos aligned themes. The playtest was basically a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a few interjected high fantasy elements. Complete with a Mu Spore!
Are we really going to suggest that molotov cocktails, liquid nitrogen, and shock grenades are magic? It's simple enough to explain away the bombs with science. And science isn't magic. It might be to those who are uneducated, but those who are smart enough would know it is not the same.
Plenty of drugs do those kinds of things for us in real life, having it kicked up a notch doesn't really discount it from being available through mundane means.
I'm actually not a huge fan of the "Totally not magical, but really kinda magical" place that alchemy inhabits in PF2. I mean, you throw around vials of some liquid that is so cold that it physically damages someone when they are struck with it, and you made that liquid out of some odds and ends you happen to have on hand in a few seconds. Feels pretty magical to me.
You have elixers that can make someone see in the dark, run faster, grow thicker skin, enhance their wit... etc.
This is all what I would consider "magic" in any other setting, in the same way that Alchemy is equated to magic in the real world. It's always been my opinion that PF2 Alchemist is stuck in this not-magical guy, not-mundane guy niche that just didn't get fleshed out enough. Re-adding body horror class feats would help a bit, and we have no reason to believe that those sorts of abilities aren't in the cards to be included somewhere down the road.
Especially with PF2 lore leaning a bit more heavily (from my point of view) into Elder Mythos aligned themes. The playtest was basically a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a few interjected high fantasy elements. Complete with a Mu Spore!
Are we really going to suggest that molotov cocktails, liquid nitrogen, and shock grenades are magic? It's simple enough to explain away the bombs with science. And science isn't magic. It might be to those who are uneducated, but those who are smart enough would know it is not the same.
Plenty of drugs do those kinds of things for us in real life, having it kicked up a notch doesn't really discount it from being available through mundane means.
it sounds to me that he was more irritatited that an alchemist can just whim such things into existence on the daily rather than the effects themselves being unscientific
it sounds to me that he was more irritatited that an alchemist can just whim such things into existence on the daily rather than the effects themselves being unscientificI'm actually not a huge fan of the "Totally not magical, but really kinda magical" place that alchemy inhabits in PF2. I mean, you throw around vials of some liquid that is so cold that it physically damages someone when they are struck with it, and you made that liquid out of some odds and ends you happen to have on hand in a few seconds. Feels pretty magical to me.
You have elixers that can make someone see in the dark, run faster, grow thicker skin, enhance their wit... etc.
This is all what I would consider "magic" in any other setting, in the same way that Alchemy is equated to magic in the real world. It's always been my opinion that PF2 Alchemist is stuck in this not-magical guy, not-mundane guy niche that just didn't get fleshed out enough. Re-adding body horror class feats would help a bit, and we have no reason to believe that those sorts of abilities aren't in the cards to be included somewhere down the road.
Especially with PF2 lore leaning a bit more heavily (from my point of view) into Elder Mythos aligned themes. The playtest was basically a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a few interjected high fantasy elements. Complete with a Mu Spore!
Are we really going to suggest that molotov cocktails, liquid nitrogen, and shock grenades are magic? It's simple enough to explain away the bombs with science. And science isn't magic. It might be to those who are uneducated, but those who are smart enough would know it is not the same.
Plenty of drugs do those kinds of things for us in real life, having it kicked up a notch doesn't really discount it from being available through mundane means.
Not sure how that's any more different than a spellcaster being able to provide material components to a spell with a spell component pouch even though they might not have been to a settlement in a long while. I mean, I guess that's a problem, but with PF2 cutting down on the minutiae of details, it's just the handwavium of the rules that it's stocked on a regular basis with all the things that you need. PF1 was less handwavey, but it was still most certainly there.
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That can easily come back as mutagens in some horror expansion.
Man, I hope they don't model them after mutagens as they seem to start of with a terrible far reaching drawback before it starts giving out minor benefits. :P
I'd rather see them like the witch does them like the Living Hair feat: The ancestries already allow hooves, tails, wings, ect so feats seem like an easy way to work different/extra limbs and familiar feats can work for tumors/twins.
I'm actually not a huge fan of the "Totally not magical, but really kinda magical" place that alchemy inhabits in PF2. I mean, you throw around vials of some liquid that is so cold that it physically damages someone when they are struck with it, and you made that liquid out of some odds and ends you happen to have on hand in a few seconds. Feels pretty magical to me.
You have elixers that can make someone see in the dark, run faster, grow thicker skin, enhance their wit... etc.
This is all what I would consider "magic" in any other setting, in the same way that Alchemy is equated to magic in the real world. It's always been my opinion that PF2 Alchemist is stuck in this not-magical guy, not-mundane guy niche that just didn't get fleshed out enough. Re-adding body horror class feats would help a bit, and we have no reason to believe that those sorts of abilities aren't in the cards to be included somewhere down the road.
Especially with PF2 lore leaning a bit more heavily (from my point of view) into Elder Mythos aligned themes. The playtest was basically a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a few interjected high fantasy elements. Complete with a Mu Spore!
Are we really going to suggest that molotov cocktails, liquid nitrogen, and shock grenades are magic? It's simple enough to explain away the bombs with science. And science isn't magic. It might be to those who are uneducated, but those who are smart enough would know it is not the same.
Plenty of drugs do those kinds of things for us in real life, having it kicked up a notch doesn't really discount it from being available through mundane means.
In a world without ample access to batteries, yeah I'd say that "bottled lightning" would in fact be magic considering how difficult it would be for you or I to make it sitting behind our computers. Same with someone who hails from a pre-industrial civilization just happening to have the ingredients to make a molotov cocktail that uses some kind of air based reaction with odds and ends that they happen to have in their bandolier. Or casually whipping up some liquid nitrogen on the fly.
I mean, you don't exactly follow the scientific method when you secrete your Infused Reagents every morning and use them to create batches of whatever alchemical item you wish, no shopping needed. Yeah I said secrete, because apparently your infused reagents are infused with, "your own alchemical essence." If that doesn't smell a bit magical, I don't know what does.
And what drugs do you take that allow you to see in the dark? Or grow claws and fangs or increase your foot speed by almost 25-50%? Cause I'll buy some.
I don't think that actually can be done without some kind of magic. Legendary Thief takes 1 minute minimum to steal something, and significantly longer for armor.
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Yep, you're right. Was thinking it was an action for some reason. But point being, excellence is a thing and isn't typically considered magic by the rules. So I don't see why alchemy should necessarily be considered magic either, even when it let's you do things that we'd probably consider to be magic.
Sure, and there are other better examples imo. Cloud Jump for instance let's you jump ridiculous distances with relative ease. Scare to Death allows you to kill someone with a look. And those are some really impressively "magical" things that mundane people can do in game.
But they are for the most part lvl 15+ abilities that require exactly what you say they do: Excellence. Being better than the common person at a task, so much so that you dwarf their capabilities.
Alchemy as a rule just functions the way it does in setting. It isn't presented as very scientific, no mention of distillation or any other chemical processing. You just have "reagents", put them together and poof. You have an alchemical item. Why does it work? Shrug. I'm sure your character knows, in the same way that your Wizard knows why waving his hands just so and reciting the right incantation creates a spell effect.
Does it really matter though? Alchemy being not Magical but still mystical is mostly just a flavor thing to differentiate it from other similar disciplines. It doesn't have any particular bearing on whether or not future publications get more interesting alchemist feats or not either.
In a world without ample access to batteries, yeah I'd say that "bottled lightning" would in fact be magic considering how difficult it would be for you or I to make it sitting behind our computers. Same with someone who hails from a pre-industrial civilization just happening to have the ingredients to make a molotov cocktail that...I'm actually not a huge fan of the "Totally not magical, but really kinda magical" place that alchemy inhabits in PF2. I mean, you throw around vials of some liquid that is so cold that it physically damages someone when they are struck with it, and you made that liquid out of some odds and ends you happen to have on hand in a few seconds. Feels pretty magical to me.
You have elixers that can make someone see in the dark, run faster, grow thicker skin, enhance their wit... etc.
This is all what I would consider "magic" in any other setting, in the same way that Alchemy is equated to magic in the real world. It's always been my opinion that PF2 Alchemist is stuck in this not-magical guy, not-mundane guy niche that just didn't get fleshed out enough. Re-adding body horror class feats would help a bit, and we have no reason to believe that those sorts of abilities aren't in the cards to be included somewhere down the road.
Especially with PF2 lore leaning a bit more heavily (from my point of view) into Elder Mythos aligned themes. The playtest was basically a Call of Cthulhu campaign with a few interjected high fantasy elements. Complete with a Mu Spore!
Are we really going to suggest that molotov cocktails, liquid nitrogen, and shock grenades are magic? It's simple enough to explain away the bombs with science. And science isn't magic. It might be to those who are uneducated, but those who are smart enough would know it is not the same.
Plenty of drugs do those kinds of things for us in real life, having it kicked up a notch doesn't really discount it from being available through mundane means.
Not really. Are tazers magic? By this logic, they are. What about Firearms, are they magic? Again, by this logic they are. But this is Golarion: Not all of the physics of it are identical to the real world, even if they are shared. Maybe there is a stronger force of gravity on Golarion. Maybe electricity is easier to conduct on a mechanical basis. After all, I'm not waving my hands, uttering incantations, evoking glyphs of traditional power, to make lightning appear out of nowhere. That's magic.
Could follow the rules of Full Metal Alchemist in that respect, where there's just simple transmutation circles with the materials turned into what you need, done in a matter of seconds. Or it could be like Edward Elric, whom doesn't need said transmutation circles, just a clap of the hands and poof! Which would be pretty interesting and a valid way to flavor it. But that's pure speculation.
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Not really. Are tazers magic? By this logic, they are. What about Firearms, are they magic? Again, by this logic they are.
I mean, ubiquitous, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," quote here.
After all, I'm not waving my hands, uttering incantations, evoking glyphs of traditional power, to make lightning appear out of nowhere. That's magic.
No, you aren't invoking glyphs of traditional power and waving your hands. Instead you are rubbing together bits of "alchemical essence infused reagents" and making a bomb/elixer/alchemical tool appear out of no where. That is also magic.
Could follow the rules of Full Metal Alchemist in that respect, where there's just simple transmutation circles with the materials turned into what you need, done in a matter of seconds. Or it could be like Edward Elric, whom doesn't need said transmutation circles, just a clap of the hands and poof! Which would be pretty interesting and a valid way to flavor it. But that's pure speculation.
I don't think that Full Metal Alchemist is the best comparison to draw. Now I will be up front in saying that I never gave it a full watch through, it's on my long list of to watch anime that keeps growing, but it was always my assumption that "alchemy" in FMA was basically just Magic with specific rules attached. IE there is always a price and all that. I could 100% be wrong about that, but that was always my perception of it.
Not really. Are tazers magic? By this logic, they are. What about Firearms, are they magic? Again, by this logic they are.I mean, ubiquitous, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," quote here.
After all, I'm not waving my hands, uttering incantations, evoking glyphs of traditional power, to make lightning appear out of nowhere. That's magic.No, you aren't invoking glyphs of traditional power and waving your hands. Instead you are rubbing together bits of "alchemical essence infused reagents" and making a bomb/elixer/alchemical tool appear out of no where. That is also magic.
I don't think that Full Metal Alchemist is the best comparison to draw. Now I will be up front in saying that I never gave it a full watch through, it's on my long list of to watch anime that keeps growing, but it was always my assumption that "alchemy" in FMA was basically just Magic with specific rules attached. IE there is always a price and all that. I could 100% be wrong about that, but that was always my perception of it.
Could follow the rules of Full Metal Alchemist in that respect, where there's just simple transmutation circles with the materials turned into what you need, done in a matter of seconds. Or it could be like Edward Elric, whom doesn't need said transmutation circles, just a clap of the hands and poof! Which would be pretty interesting and a valid way to flavor it. But that's pure speculation.
Would be arguable if there weren't as many distinctions between them, both mechanically and flavorwise. But there is. Plus, that rings more as flavor-text than actual rules or setting expectations. Any braindead wizard can cast Detect Magic on a regular ol' tazer and be all like "Yup, there's no magic here. Just a bunch of doohickeys."
Just because the rules are abstract does not mean they are identical. Can they be if you want them to? Perhaps. But again, the above points of how the game, and by comparison the setting, does not treat them as magic (even if mechanically they fill the same niche), is more than enough proof that it is indeed not magic.
Not exactly. It utilizes the manipulation of kinetic energies to take existing matter and change it to suit the desires of the alchemist. The reason why "specific rules attached" is a thing is simply because a failure to provide the necessary ingredients, which is more of a science than an art, results in a subpar or inadequate recreation. The Laws of Equivalent Exchange, a very frequent upbringing within the series, reinforce this in many ways throughout, and is actually supported from the consequences of their actions, both at the very beginning from attempting Human Transmutation, all the way towards the end. Got the wrong stuff? Bad stuff happens. It's not much different than, say, providing the wrong material components of a spell, or waving the hands in the incorrect way, or flubbing an incantation. The only difference is that the game doesn't extremely punish you for these problems (at least not inherently), whereas in other games, it can and does.
To be fair, the rules and mechanics make this abstract and handwave a lot of this for both ease of play and convenience to the player, which is why it feels like an "I made something out of nothing" argument, when the short of it is "It works because the game wants it to, and requires it for balance purposes." It'd be the equivalent of saying a Wizard can't do anything without a spellbook. Which is right, yes. But it's also assumed that a Wizard always, always, always has one, whether it's his own, or something else he can make or find to use as his own.
There aren't really that many mechanical distinctions between Alchemy and Magic though. Reagents can be thought of as level agnostic "spell slots". Using Advanced Alchemy to make batches of stuff at the beginning of the day is like being a prepared caster. Using Quick Alchemy to get exactly what you need when you need it is like being a spontaneous caster, less efficient but more flexible. Really the only mechanical distinction between the two is pure power per effect generally. A bomb of a given level is usually not as powerful as an offensive spell of the same level. Elixer of Life doesn't provide as much up front healing as Heal, though it does give a bonus against disease and poisons.
Really if you stripped out any mention of alchemy from the class, you could very easily just flavor it as a particular form of magic, and it wouldn't even be weird.
And that is basically my point. 2e alchemist lost it's mysticism for no real reason, and didn't gain anything interesting to me in the trade.
Fair dues on FMA. Like I said, I've never given it a full watch through. But look at it this way: Let's say that some Wizard fully decodes the mysteries of the Universe and fully understands magic. They understand what every symbol and word used as incantation and or somatic component do and exactly why each material component is required. At that point, to that person, Magic would no longer be Magic, it would just be a form of science. But to everyone else it still would be magic.
I mean if I was in the FMA world and didn't understand Alchemy and watched an Alchemist do any of what they do, that would just be magic from my perspective, even if they tried to explain it to me as they did it.
And that is basically my point. 2e alchemist lost it's mysticism for no real reason, and didn't gain anything interesting to me in the trade.
This suggests that something was really lost which I'm not sure I can agree with. It's not like slapping the magic trait on alchemical items would fundamentally change how the alchemist plays or really do much of anything outside change how a few edge-case interactions work.
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And that is basically my point. 2e alchemist lost it's mysticism for no real reason, and didn't gain anything interesting to me in the trade.This suggests that something was really lost which I'm not sure I can agree with. It's not like slapping the magic trait on alchemical items would fundamentally change how the alchemist plays or really do much of anything outside change how a few edge-case interactions work.
Well it does feel like Alchemical items were generally watered down due to their non-magical nature. After all they now have to be something that it wouldn't break the world if everyone had ready access to them, whereas in 1st alchemist elixers were largely spell effects that you'd need either a caster or an all up alchemist to have access to. Basically, the 2e Alchemist will only ever be as powerful as their tools, and largely their tools are less powerful then they were, bombs especially. (I had originally intended to do this whole big comparison between alchemical bombs and things like Snares and what have you to show how little they are worth to people that can't craft them with advanced/quick alchemy, but it got real wordy. Imagine that going here if you like.)
But that is beside my original point. From a flavor perspective, the Alchemist just isn't that interesting to me anymore. Instead of striding the line between magic and the mundane, they are now firmly mundane. From a purely flavor perspective, that's just not that interesting to me, it feels like you are playing a commoner+. Again, that is my opinion. No shade intended if you happen to enjoy the alchemist.
The tumor/extra appendage features returning may help with that quite a bit, especially if they help you tackle some of the action economy issues many people use familiar's to overcome.
I would really love to have some Alchemist stuff that focuses on permanent self-modification of a horrific nature. For me, tumor familiars are the signature Alchemist body horror option. It's all fun and games until a hairless raccoon crawls out of somebody.
It could be a cool set of options to come out of a book focused on something like occult adventures - a set of mutations that a character could purchase, like augmentations in starfinder.
A horror book with some of these options, some occult classes, and a bunch of optional rules feels like something they might pair with an Eye of Dread AP.