Minigiant |
Over on D20, the Spell Snowball lists two different versions. One being conjuration and one being evocation.
Searching these on Archives of Nethys I can only find the latter (evocation)
Does the conjuration one still exist? or was it replaced by the evocation version?
Sandslice |
So... while your table is free to vary this because the older book (People of the North) exists, the evocation version was intended to replace the conjuration version.
The reasoning becomes evident when you compare Snowball (PotN) with Snowball (UW). The conjuration spell a) is usable by bloodragers; b) forces a Fort save for stagger; c) does not allow SR. The nerfs were issued to bring it into line with other 1st level 1d6/level:5 attack spells.
When the change came down, PFS shifted to the evocation version - but for people who already had the spell, they got to choose the school, and to rebuild out of any feats or items they'd taken to interact with the stagger.
However, even doing so, they were made to use it according to the evocation version's game text.
willuwontu |
They are both legal versions of the spell.
The official stance is that reprinted material does not supercede previous material.
Diego Rossi |
They are both legal versions of the spell.
The official stance is that reprinted material does not supercede previous material.
The fully refined version will be Paizo's default version for adventures, NPC compilations, and the like moving forward, since it benefited from two development cycles and is available on the PRD, but as always feel free to use the version that your group prefers, or make your own variant. In Pathfinder Society, always check the Additional Resources page to see what versions are legal and the Campaign Clarifications page for the Pathfinder Society team’s updates on how to use those options in the Pathfinder Society campaign.
We read in that in two very different ways.
It is permission to use either version in a private game. But in a private game, you always have permission to use the rules you prefer. But it says "The fully refined version will be Paizo's default version for adventures, NPC compilations, and the like moving forward", so the default version is the latter version, not the earlier one.willuwontu |
We read in that in two very different ways.
It's quite amusing that we do so, given that it outright states as such.
That said, a pick-up is not a reprint
To give context to what I said earlier, by reprint, I meant the option reappearing in another book (which is a pick-up). An actual reprint, is the reprint of an entire book with changed language for that specific option (which does supercede previous material).
It is permission to use either version in a private game. But in a private game, you always have permission to use the rules you prefer. But it says "The fully refined version will be Paizo's default version for adventures, NPC compilations, and the like moving forward", so the default version is the latter version, not the earlier one.
It says that the latter is the default assumption when they design things with that option in the future, not that that option replaces that the previous version of it. E.G. You can still get a +1 Dueling Dueling weapon, since even though the dueling enchantment was reprinted (picked up), it still exists.
They simply tell us to use which version a group prefers as a reminder that the previous version isn't gone now and that it's perfectly fine for it to see usage. This has always been their stance, as seen in this post from years beforehand.
VoodistMonk |
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Always use the less nerfed version.
If you can tell there is clearly a better version that existed before being messed with in some way, use the better version.
In this particular case, I always and only use the Conjuration Snowball that has the Stagger effect. Because it's better. Clearly, freaking, better.
Instead of making Snowball worse, they should have made all the other spells better. Lol. Or just let there be spells of varying power. Stop nerfing $#!+...
ShadowcatX |
Always use the less nerfed version.
If you can tell there is clearly a better version that existed before being messed with in some way, use the better version.
In this particular case, I always and only use the Conjuration Snowball that has the Stagger effect. Because it's better. Clearly, freaking, better.
Instead of making Snowball worse, they should have made all the other spells better. Lol. Or just let there be spells of varying power. Stop nerfing $#!+...
Pretty sure they stopped.
I think you are fairly wrong though, it isn't possible to have thousands of spells, doing radically different things, all at the same power level. If something is identified as significantly OP nerfing it isn't a bad thing.
SheepishEidolon |
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There is a reason why Paizo did nerf options they considered overpowered: Such options are way more harmful than underpowered ones. If an option is underpowered, it will be ignored by ambitious players - hence all the other options are still relevant and the game is still interestingly diverse. But if one option is overpowered, every other option will be ignored by the same type of player - hence this part of the game becomes way more boring. See this blog entry for a slightly more elaborated description, I got it from there.
VoodistMonk |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a reason why Paizo did nerf options they considered overpowered: Such options are way more harmful than underpowered ones. If an option is underpowered, it will be ignored by ambitious players - hence all the other options are still relevant and the game is still interestingly diverse. But if one option is overpowered, every other option will be ignored by the same type of player - hence this part of the game becomes way more boring. See this blog entry for a slightly more elaborated description, I got it from there.
Interesting.
Belafon |
. . .That said, a pick-up is not a reprint: those pick-ups receive multiple additional development passes just like the new material for the book, refining them beyond their original version. Sometimes these development passes won’t yield any change, and sometimes they lead to substantial changes.
The fully refined version will be Paizo's default version for adventures, NPC compilations, and the like moving forward, since it benefited from two development cycles and is available on the PRD, but as always feel free to use the version that your group prefers, or make your own variant.
The last two clauses are just reiterating what has been true of RPGs since the dawn of time. "Legal" is whatever your GM says it is. I could make up a custom feat (with no prereqs) for my home game that gives a +99 untyped bonus to Will saves. GM OKs it? Then it's legal.
The newest version is the version that Paizo has made several passes over. It's what the designers have decided is of an appropriate balance level. It can be upsetting to some people who have found what they think is the "best" option to have it lowered in power. And if you're in a long-term game where the GM has adapted the power level to the older versions, maybe you want to keep the older version. But the professionals believe it's best for the game overall to use the new text moving forward.
VoodistMonk |
Why can't two separate schools of magic accomplish roughly the same thing with slight differences?
I, personally, will continue to use the Conjuration Snowball on every NPC I build to put into any of my campaigns... and likewise for any character I create to play in others' campaigns.
If the GM says otherwise, fine... I think such banning is lame... but I like playing DnD more than I like bickering about stupid, low-level spells... so I will play with a different spell entirely... if it's not the Conjuration Snowball, then I have absolutely no interest in throwing Snowballs, at all.
There are plenty of other menial spells that haven't been completely ruined/banned, yet.
Sandslice |
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Why can't two separate schools of magic accomplish roughly the same thing with slight differences?
Slight differences? One respects SR and has no added effects. The other bypasses SR and forces a save against one of the game's more useful conditions (staggered.) Now, if the benefits (SR-bypass, and stagger proc) were split between them, it'd be a different story.