Additional Resources Update: Songbirds and Snowballs


Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild

Paizo Employee ***** Organized Play Lead Developer

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The Additional Resources and Campaign Clarifications updates are now live, and we have numerous FAQs that should also be appearing shortly. These updates include all of the November products, including Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness, for which you should also see the Ultimate Wilderness FAQs. Most notably, though, these updates address two prevalent character options: the ring of seven lovely colors and the spell snowball.

The Ring of Seven Lovely Colors: This ring is sacred to Shelyn, functions as a ring of protection +1 (a 2,000 gp value), and allows the user to transform into songbird seven times a day (somewhere between 20,000–70,000 gp in value, depending on how you do the math) for the low price of 4,000 gp. In practice, we’ve seen several issues. The first is that the ring’s price is overall too low for its benefits. Second, the ring inadvertently facilitates combat, which has spun into hyper-agile “songbird of death” builds that frequently shut down combats single-handed—particularly jarring given a relic of Shelyn (goddess of love, art, and beauty) has turned into an offensive tool.

The Campaign Clarifications document has made several changes to this ring. First, the price has been increased to 7,000 gp. Second, the referenced spell is now beast shape II instead of beast shape IV; this has no mechanical effect but merely better represents the ring’s price and functions. Third, the ring now includes the following text:

Quote:
The ring’s magic shares Shelyn’s preference for mercy and peace over violence. If its wearer willingly makes an attack while in songbird form, the polymorph effect ends immediately and the rings’s songbird transformation ability deactivates for 1 week. If the wearer is forced to make an attack against her will (such as from the effects of confusion), the songbird form does not deactivate.

Resolving the Ring: We understand that there are many people who have purchased this ring. Follow these steps.

  • Sell back the ring, and you may purchase it back at its adjusted price—the standard policy when an item’s price changes.
  • If your character has this ring already, and changes to the ring invalidate your character build, you may rebuild to whatever extent you feel is necessary (except for Prestige Point purchases).
  • If your character is low-level but was on track to require the ring of seven lovely colors as a key component of the character build, you may rebuild to the extent that you feel is necessary (except for Prestige Point purchases).
  • Please make any changes within 1 month or by the next time you play your character, whichever is later. This should provide you a short window to avoid rebuilding in case you have an imminent event or otherwise don’t have much time to consider your options.

    Snowball: The spell snowball appears in Ultimate Wilderness, having undergone several more design passes as part of the development process for that book. The result is that the spell has changed school (evocation rather than conjuration), does not ignore spell resistance, and no longer staggers the target. While these changes bring the spell in line with 1st-level spell benchmarks, they may also impact characters who invested in maximizing the spell’s effects.

    Resolving Snowball: Take the following steps.

  • If your character already has snowball as a spell known or recorded in a spellbook, make a one-time choice for that character whether to treat snowball as a conjuration spell or an evocation spell. For all other purposes, including spell resistance, use the updated spell description found in Ultimate Wilderness (also appearing in the Campaign Clarifications document for People of the North).
  • If your character has selected one or more character options specifically to interact with snowball (e.g. Rime Spell), you may retrain those options for free.
  • If your character has purchased one or more items specifically to interact with snowball (e.g. a lesser rime metamagic rod), you may sell those back at full cost.
  • Please make any changes within 1 month or by the next time you play your character, whichever is later. This should provide you a short window to avoid adjustments in case you have an imminent event or otherwise don’t have much time to consider your options.

    Finally: We’re providing these rebuild steps in recognition that these changes affect many people and were significant components of character builds. Kindly act in good faith in any rebuilds above, including your assessment of whether these rebuilds apply to your character.

  • * Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

    So Does this mean that nothing else needs to change due to UW?
    Like both versions of archetypes (viking for example) are good to be used right?

    Silver Crusade ***** ⦵⦵

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    John Compton wrote:

    The Additional Resources and Campaign Clarifications updates are now live, and we have numerous FAQs that should also be appearing shortly. These updates include all of the November products, including Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness, for which you should also see the Ultimate Wilderness FAQs. Most notably, though, these updates address two prevalent character options: the ring of seven lovely colors and the spell snowball.

    The Ring of Seven Lovely Colors: This ring is sacred to Shelyn, functions as a ring of protection +1 (a 2,000 gp value), and allows the user to transform into songbird seven times a day (somewhere between 20,000–70,000 gp in value, depending on how you do the math) for the low price of 4,000 gp. In practice, we’ve seen several issues. The first is that the ring’s price is overall too low for its benefits. Second, the ring inadvertently facilitates combat, which has spun into hyper-agile “songbird of death” builds that frequently shut down combats single-handed—particularly jarring given a relic of Shelyn (goddess of love, art, and beauty) has turned into an offensive tool.

    The Campaign Clarifications document has made several changes to this ring. First, the price has been increased to 7,000 gp. Second, the referenced spell is now beast shape II instead of beast shape IV; this has no mechanical effect but merely better represents the ring’s price and functions. Third, the ring now includes the following text:

    Quote:
    The ring’s magic shares Shelyn’s preference for mercy and peace over violence. If its wearer willingly makes an attack while in songbird form, the polymorph effect ends immediately and the rings’s songbird transformation ability deactivates for 1 week. If the wearer is forced to make an attack against her will (such as from the effects of confusion), the songbird form does not deactivate.

    Lyric can still have her ring and use it the way Shelyn intended! Shelyn be praised! Thank you, thank you, thank you, John, on behalf of myself and all the other non-violent Shelynites who love the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors.

    Hmm

    Grand Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

    John Compton wrote:
    If your character already has snowball as a spell known or recorded in a spellbook, make a one-time choice for that character whether to treat snowball as a conjuration spell or an evocation spell. For all other purposes, including spell resistance, use the updated spell description found in Ultimate Wilderness (also appearing in the Campaign Clarifications document for People of the North).

    Thank you for letting Zahra (my conjuration specialist) keep Snowball as conjuration. She does appreciate it, even in the face of the other changes to the spell.

    Hmm


    The change to the Ring isn't actually in the Campaign Clarifications document. I checked the web and PDF versions.

    Paizo Employee ***** Organized Play Lead Developer

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    Thomas Hutchins wrote:

    So Does this mean that nothing else needs to change due to UW?

    Like both versions of archetypes (viking for example) are good to be used right?

    There's a possibility the combination of the review team, Linda, and I missed a change in a reprinted archetype or other class feature. If so, post it—probably in a different thread—so that we can review it.

    Looks like the viking ended up getting berserker one level later. I'll bring this up with my colleagues during our upcoming review session and see about getting it sorted out. My suspicion is that we'll update it to the Ultimate Wilderness version. In the meantime my advice is to continue using your current source.

    Paizo Employee ***** Organized Play Lead Developer

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    shaventalz wrote:
    The change to the Ring isn't actually in the Campaign Clarifications document. I checked the web and PDF versions.

    It looks like the Campaign Clarifications update hasn't gone live alongside the Additional Resources for some reason. I'll investigate.

    ****

    Are any options being offered to Thundercaller Bards after the Nerf to their Thunder Call and Call Lighting performances, requiring them to be standard actions at any level? I'm not saying its unfair, the new rule is what it is. I just want to know my options.

    Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Toronto aka pauljathome

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    John Compton wrote:
    The Additional Resources and Campaign Clarifications updates are now live,

    [Reasonable mode]

    Thanks for all of this John.

    Although I've several characters affected by these changes I have to admit that
    1) The changes are very definitely reasonable and deserved and
    2) You've gone out of your way to make the change hurt as little as possible while nerfing some seriously overpowered options.
    [/Reasonable mode]

    [Power gamer baby mode]
    NOOOOOO!!!!!!!! You've TOTALLY ruined my 15th level Champion of Irori. He can't possibly recover from this. He is now ABSOLUTELY useless.
    [/Power gamer baby mode]


    One question regarding the ring: how strictly do you define "attack" here? Are you allowed to, say, try pecking a rope apart to covertly free a tied-up ally?

    Grand Lodge

    5 people marked this as a favorite.

    Using this blessing from the Eternal Rose as a tool of killing is the last thing I would want to do. I am glad her favor remains with myself and my fellow Pathfinders.

    ***** Venture-Captain, Georgia—Savannah

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    John Compton wrote:
    The Additional Resources and Campaign Clarifications updates are now live, and we have numerous FAQs that should also be appearing shortly. These updates include all of the November products, including Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Wilderness, for which you should also see the Ultimate Wilderness FAQs. Most notably, though, these updates address two prevalent character options: the ring of seven lovely colors and the spell snowball.

    Thank you so much for this!!!!! For all of this!

    You've made my night! No, my week! No, my month!

    Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Savannah aka KitsuneWarlock

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    Thank you for letting us Shelynites keep our ring! Using it in combat as more than an emergency escape button was lame anyway.

    Any chance Magical Child characters can rebuild out of that trap of an archetype?

    **** Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht aka Quentin Coldwater

    Hooray! One question: What happens with spells you get that you normally aren't supposed to get? As far as I know, Mudball is a Goblin-only spell, but the Geomancer Occultist gets it on his spell list (p. 66). Does he instead not get that spell? Does he get a replacement? Or is this a weird enough exception that allows you to have it? I believe I've seen things like this in domains and the like, but I'm not 100%, I just know of this example.

    Sovereign Court *** Venture-Lieutenant, Georgia—Savannah aka KitsuneWarlock

    Kwinten Koëter wrote:
    Hooray! One question: What happens with spells you get that you normally aren't supposed to get? As far as I know, Mudball is a Goblin-only spell, but the Geomancer Occultist gets it on his spell list (p. 66). Does he instead not get that spell? Does he get a replacement? Or is this a weird enough exception that allows you to have it? I believe I've seen things like this in domains and the like, but I'm not 100%, I just know of this example.

    This line from the FAQ may help.

    Quote:
    If the non-legal options are an automatic part of the archetype, such as a feat that all characters with that archetype gain, the Additional Resources page often provides a substitution. If it does not, that option is legal for your character. However, if the non-legal options are part of a menu of choices, such as a list of feats that includes one feat that is not legal, the option does not become legal for your character.

    Shadow Lodge ***

    Dang. No Verdant Grappler.

    Liberty's Edge *

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    "May the Eternal Rose Bless you all on your journeys. Find beauty in everyone and everything this day!"

    ***

    So we can choose evocation or conjuration, but we can’t just drop it for a different known spell, despite it no longer being useful as an SR-leas option nor a control option? If I misunderstood, great! If not, could we please allow the spell to be exchanged for another as an option? I haven’t seen the new text, but based on the description above it seems like the new version fills a very different role than befoee.

    Dark Archive ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

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    Thank you very much John, while I love the old snowball as a player, the GM-Me is currently happy enough about the songird change that this is worth it overall.

    Silver Crusade ***** ⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

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    Speaking as a VC of a lodge that is home to several Shelyn-loving players and characters - thank you for this ruling!

    As far as I know, the most "offensive" thing any local PC has ever done while wearing the ring was to intentionally void their bird-bowels on an evil spellcaster's writing desk (in an effort to distract them from brutally murdering a certain VC's favorite Hellknight Signifer character...so I think we're good over here!

    * RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    My characters don't need any changes, but this post was highly appreciated, John!

    Dark Archive *** Venture-Agent, Indiana—Bloomington aka primevalivy

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    100 percent behind the changes to the ring. Well decided.

    * RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    There's no clarification about the elementalist shifter. The archetype never says what energy type the Elemental Strikes ability deals.

    ***** ⦵⦵

    22 people marked this as a favorite.

    Shelyn "Oh I'll let them experience the beauty and majesty of flight, gaily singing from tree to tree with the wind in their feathers and the sun at their ba..."

    Songbird punches through an orcs eye and emerges from the other side , lifting its wings and cawing as its covered in gore and bits of skull....

    Shelyn "... oh HELL NO!"

    Scarab Sages **

    Cyrad wrote:
    There's no clarification about the elementalist shifter. The archetype never says what energy type the Elemental Strikes ability deals.

    This seems very clear to me.

    Quote:
    The elementalist shifter can charge her attacks only with an element she has chosen with elemental aspect. Once charged, each melee attack the elementalist shifter makes until the start of her next turn deals an additional 1d6 points of energy damage based on the element she chooses when taking this action

    * Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

    Belabras wrote:
    Cyrad wrote:
    There's no clarification about the elementalist shifter. The archetype never says what energy type the Elemental Strikes ability deals.

    This seems very clear to me.

    Quote:
    The elementalist shifter can charge her attacks only with an element she has chosen with elemental aspect. Once charged, each melee attack the elementalist shifter makes until the start of her next turn deals an additional 1d6 points of energy damage based on the element she chooses when taking this action

    So it's adding new water, earth and air elemental damage types since those are the types of the aspects they can choose.

    Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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    Water is cold, earth is acid, air is electricity.

    Scarab Sages **

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    And fire is fire ;P

    Silver Crusade ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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    BigNorseWolf wrote:

    Shelyn "Oh I'll let them experience the beauty and majesty of flight, gaily singing from tree to tree with the wind in their feathers and the sun at their ba..."

    Songbird punches through an orcs eye and emerges from the other side , lifting its wings and cawing as its covered in gore and bits of skull....

    Shelyn "... oh HELL NO!"

    ... slow clap... and someone really needs to convert that post into fanart.

    Dark Archive

    As I chose Evocation as an opposed school, and Snowball was my only real damage dealing spell, being allowed to keep it as conjuration is great. As for the Stagger, I honestly only remembered it once, out of the many times I used it. So, not a big deal there. Good options, I can work with this. Thank you!

    Grand Lodge **

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    John Compton wrote:
    shaventalz wrote:
    The change to the Ring isn't actually in the Campaign Clarifications document. I checked the web and PDF versions.
    It looks like the Campaign Clarifications update hasn't gone live alongside the Additional Resources for some reason. I'll investigate.

    Probably worth saying that even though both Campaign Clarifications and Additional Resources updated to the March '18 versions, neither of them contained references to the changes to the snowball spell.

    Also, whilst your post says that it will note the changes within the People of the North section, you'll need to note it within Pathfinder Adventure Path #67 "The Snows of Summer" too, as that contained the spell and granted access too.

    Lantern Lodge ***

    Just asking...

    What happens if a fellow player, casts Dominate Person on a wearer of the The Ring of Seven Lovely Colors and have the wearer change into a songbird and attack people?
    Assuming the casting of Dominate Person is allowed by the wearer and the wearer choose not save against the dominate?

    Shadow Lodge *****

    Is the subject willingly making the attack?

    Grand Lodge ****

    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    It very much sounds like it.

    ***** ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein-Main aka GreyYeti

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    Secane wrote:

    Just asking...

    What happens if a fellow player, casts Dominate Person on a wearer of the The Ring of Seven Lovely Colors and have the wearer change into a songbird and attack people?
    Assuming the casting of Dominate Person is allowed by the wearer and the wearer choose not save against the dominate?

    Whenever you try shenaninigans to circumvent a rule, Pharasma kills a puppy. Think of the puppies!

    *

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    Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    I'm trying to imagine the contortions that would be required for a follower of the Eternal Rose to go along with such a niche case that wasn't outright meta-knowledge.

    It's about as tortured as her brother, and ranks up there with the 'money for nothing' folks who want to have 'free cash', imo.

    Please walk me through why this twisted meta-path would be a viable thing, given the perspective of Shelyn?

    EDIT: Unless, of course, this hypothetical is merely being tossed out to provide warning to folks to avoid such shenanigans, at which point, well played!

    Lantern Lodge ***

    So what if the wearer was lied to by the dominator caster and keeps trying to save against the command to attack... but have a bad will save and keeps failing?

    Shadow Lodge *****

    3 people marked this as a favorite.

    Does that sound willing to you?

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