After having to break the bad news to a few players that an unwieldy weapon can't make an AOO, even with reach, I've wondered why the heck anyone would make a weapon that's unwieldy with reach. Whats the target audience?
Reach weapons make aoos. Can't do that with an unwieldy weapon.
Reach weapons give you more opportunity to full attack by having your opponent stay within reach after a 5 foot step and or giving you more opponents. Unwieldy weapons can't full attack.
You don't always need to move with a reach weapon. But unwieldy with reach you don't have anything to do with your move..
So who's this for? Melee envoys that want people in range for Improv + Whack? Thats a little niche but might be it.
I mean, you can't take step and full attack in Starfinder anyway <_<
Right, which is one of the things that makes reach awesome. If you're whackinig on pistol packing peat with a sword, pete can five foot back and shoot you in the face. If you've got a space spear he either shoots there, moves 10 feet, or 5 foot steps and shoot... all of which will get him stabbed with an AOO.
But yeah, you can't benefit from stepping one square away and hitting enemy once to prevent enemy from being to full attack you back as well.
Huh. Maybe thats the idea? Whack and 5 foot back to make them trade their multi attacks for one of their attacks vs. your one attack, and since you've got the big clonking weapon that's to your advantage.
Except for large monsters i think that works out the same as a non reach unwieldy weapon though.
"Weapons with the unwieldy special property are large and awkward, can’t be fired without cooling down first, or are otherwise difficult to use with repeated attacks. You can’t use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack (or any other action in which you could make multiple attacks), you can’t attack with it more than once per round, and you can’t use it to make an attack of opportunity."
It just says that you cannot make multiple attacks with such a weapon per round. It doesn't say that you cannot move. You could move 1 square away and attack with an unwieldy weapon, you just can't swipe it more than once. Your best way to use one is attacking with a standard action, not a full-round action.
Unwieldy also indicates ranged weapons with a longer cooldown, and that does not necessarily mean that it's harder to pull the trigger.
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No melee character should use an unwieldy weapon under any circumstances. Loss of AoO by itself is crippling.
I treat Unwieldy melee weapons as a curiosity and nothing more.
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It's pretty niche, yeah. I agree that giving up AoOs is pretty brutal, so I'd posit that you'd have to find a way to do boatloads of damage, or be some kind of nutso debuffer, to make up for that loss of battlefield control. Ok, thinking caps on!
How about, like, a Stunt-and-Strike melee operative, or an Operative's Arsenal melee operative? Combine with a really focused Deadly Aim build? Plausibly some kind of hit-and-run Spring Attack build; better yet, combine that with a race that likes to charge and be a Blitz soldier / Stellar Rush Solarian that ping-pongs from foe to foe, using superior Reach to minimize the AoOs you take from movement?
I mean, this is a bit theoretical, but you could make a build revolving around an Ambush or perhaps a Silent Slayer soldier with the Assassin archetype's lvl 12 Lethal Strike? Lurking in the shadows for minutes, and then bam, one attack that does 5d10+12d6+30 or something stupid from outside counter-attack range? If no one expects a knife in the dark, then surely no one expects a halberd in the dark?
The big draw of Reach is, of course, getting to make more AoOs, but secondary to that, it affords you extra protection from being outside your foe's range. So, what kind of build would benefit from that? How's about everyone's favourite, the Muscle Wizard? Supercharge Weapon from 5 ft away (taking a Guarded Step as needed to cast without provoking that turn,) then round two, Empower Weapon, for one huge Reach alpha-strike? Ok, like the Assassin, having to take ~2 rounds to charge up one really big attack isn't mechanically great, but, counterargument: you get to say "I'MMA CHARGIN MAH LASER GLAIVE-GUISARME!"
Or, going further afield into spellcasting, combine one big juicy damage weapon with the Spell Sergeant's Spell Strike? This one actually has potential! A Crusader Mystic with a thicc dice Unwieldy Weapon throwing out a bunch of Eclipse Touch attacks is nasty enough, but if you've got Reach and can cast without provoking and then apply those touch attacks to a foe that doesn't have Reach...then you're no longer confined to spells with the "this doesn't provoke" rider?
This was a fun thought experiment! Unrelated: I may need to get out more?
It just says that you cannot make multiple attacks with such a weapon per round. It doesn't say that you cannot move.
I'm not saying that you can't move with an unwieldy weapon.
I'm saying that since you only have one attack anyway you CAN move and lose nothing.
The point of a reach weapon is either for AOOs or so you don't HAVE to move. Both of which are rendered pointless by the unwieldy property.
They're two good tastes that just don't work well together. (Like pickles and chocholate)
After having to break the bad news to a few players that an unwieldy weapon can't make an AOO, even with reach, I've wondered why the heck anyone would make a weapon that's unwieldy with reach. What's the target audience?
If it's a powered weapon, a mechanic with the Overcharge/Improved Overcharge/Superior Overcharge trick might consider it useful. Possibly if they already gain reach (like dragonkin, haan, sarcesians, or trox) and/or have another melee PC or a barrier to keep the enemy from getting inside the weapon's reach.
Definitely not for everyone, though.
They're two good tastes that just don't work well together. (Like pickles and chocholate)
Dill pickles and sweet chocolate I agree would not work well together, but there are plenty of other sweet/sour food combinations that do work. Gherkins (sweet pickle) and semi-sweet/un-sweet dark chocolate perhaps?
Of course, if we want to get traditional, chocolate is supposed to be mixed with chili powder...
There's a reason my blitz soldier @L5 is still using a Tactical Pike...
I have to ask this as its one of the points for the post. Other then the Vanguards x times a day, is there any way to get more then 1 AoO a round?
One of the main points that keeps cropping up is the loss of AoOs which in Pathfinder you could get 5 of the damned things but in Starfinder you get 1 reaction a round. So loosing something that may crop up isn't a huge deal in a game where a good chunk of the enemies have ranged attacks.
The other point as I believe someone mentioned before, teamwork. An unwieldy weapon with reach can still be used from behind the meat shield.
I have to ask this as its one of the points for the post. Other then the Vanguards x times a day, is there any way to get more then 1 AoO a round?
One of the main points that keeps cropping up is the loss of AoOs which in Pathfinder you could get 5 of the damned things but in Starfinder you get 1 reaction a round. So loosing something that may crop up isn't a huge deal in a game where a good chunk of the enemies have ranged attacks.
The other point as I believe someone mentioned before, teamwork. An unwieldy weapon with reach can still be used from behind the meat shield.
There aren't yet. However, there also aren't a lot of ways to get extra attacks in starfinder. Reach weapons typically give you an AoO when a melee enemy closes in. A free attack is a free attack. Unwieldy weapons A) don't give you the free attack and B) don't let you attack more than once.
So, while there's probably some technomancer or mechanic build where that suits them just fine, the average soldier, solarian, or vanguard really doesn't want one of these weapons.
A Reach weapon adds to the 'area' a melee character can control while still using a melee weapon.
Ideally, to cover the 'inside the Reach' for people provoking a reaction one would have a decent Unarmed attack of some sort, which means that it's less a 'donut' and more of a homogenous 'muffin' of melee.
Unwieldy weapons always struck me as "Gotta hit first and hard or you're in trouble" weapons... Reach in that case allows someone who is smaller to hit something that is bigger without as much risk of being within the bigger target's reach but that's about the only benefit I could see?
Ideally, to cover the 'inside the Reach' for people provoking a reaction one would have a decent Unarmed attack of some sort, which means that it's less a 'donut' and more of a homogenous 'muffin' of melee.
I'm a little confused about this one. Only 1st edition pathfinder has the donut effect. In Starfinder reach weapons work just fine against adjacent enemies.
Huh.
Learn something new every day.
Where is that located just so I can look it up and memorize it?
My general assumption with Reach weapons is that they exist so you can hit things that hurt you if you stand adjacent do them without being subject to whatever effect they have that hurts you for standing next to them/hitting them with a non-reach melee weapon.
I suppose it's more than possible I've been coming it reach weapons from the wrong angle all along.
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My general assumption with Reach weapons is that they exist so you can hit things that hurt you if you stand adjacent do them without being subject to whatever effect they have that hurts you for standing next to them/hitting them with a non-reach melee weapon.
Thats definitely A benefit but far from the major one. Most people are in it for the AOO and full attacks (very important in starfinder) Not being hit with the space porcupines retributive quills is just gravy.
Well since starfinder reach weapons threaten the corners there's really no right angle to approach reach weap OH OH OH OH newspapers hurt ow ow owow...
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My general assumption with Reach weapons is that they exist so you can hit things that hurt you if you stand adjacent do them without being subject to whatever effect they have that hurts you for standing next to them/hitting them with a non-reach melee weapon.
Thats definitely A benefit but far from the major one. Most people are in it for the AOO and full attacks (very important in starfinder) Not being hit with the space porcupines retributive quills is just gravy.
Well since starfinder reach weapons threaten the corners there's really no right angle to approach reach weap OH OH OH OH newspapers hurt ow ow owow...
NewsPAPERS. How... quaint...
*baps BNW with a soft-edged military-grade datapad rigged to a 'selfie' stick.*
:>
You can make use of abilities that require a move action to activate and still attack from 10' away with this type of weapon.
Examples would be photoenergenic node, flashblinders, miracle worker, etc...
However, you could do the same thing with a normal reach weapon also.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is Cleave. It's a standard action, giving you up to 2 attacks at no penalty. Great Cleave increases the maximum number of attacks to anything within reach. It's niche sure, but a solarian can use a move action to move another creature using gravity hold. Or the solarian can set up for an ally with black hole.
You can’t use an unwieldy weapon as part of a full attack (or any other action in which you could make multiple attacks), you can’t attack with it more than once per round, and you can’t use it to make an attack of opportunity.
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Nope. I've got nothing.
I thought I was on to something for a theoretical character that has a useful swift action that they use on most rounds. So because you aren't making a full attack anyway the unweildy doesn't hurt. And since you have reach, you can step, then attack from reach range. That forces the opponent to have to move to attack you and prevents them from retaliating with a full attack of their own.
But then I realized that if my hypothetical character only had a non-reach weapon, they could just instead attack from adjacent range, then step and it would have the same effect.
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I've found that unwieldy reach weapons like swoop hammers are mostly there for the GM to forget about unwieldy (because it's not listed in monster stat blocks) and do extra damage to players at reach with AoOs or full attacks.
Heard this happen in actual play podcasts plenty of times.
I've found that unwieldy reach weapons like swoop hammers are mostly there for the GM to forget about unwieldy (because it's not listed in monster stat blocks) and do extra damage to players at reach with AoOs or full attacks.
Heard this happen in actual play podcasts plenty of times.
I've made that mistake.
To be fair, if I noticed one of my enemies using an unwieldy weapon I might just switch it out with something else anyway. I hate getting even further behind in action economy as a GM.
On the other hand, "it hits hard, but can only hit once per round" and "it's mainly useless for the players so they need to sell it" aren't terrible features for enemy loot to have, depending on encounter design.