I've been looking into samurai's and they're pretty cool. And while the power of a class is barely anything, they're pretty underpowered. I chopped around a bit, and I couldn't really find any great builds for them. So, if any of you have powerful builds of samurai's that can compare to fighters and barbarians, please do share them.
Warrior Poet is pretty strong with Slashing Grace. Ironbound Sword is like a soft gestalt with Fighter which is pretty bad ass. You take 3 levels Samurai and then put the rest into Fighter.
What level, source constraints, other limits? Can you usually use a mount, or do you get a lot of fights where horses aren't an option? Is DPR your only measure of power or do you look for other things too?
There's a discussion here with a few ideas thrown around.
Mobility & non-combat abilities irrelevant, DPR the most important; OK.
The ironbound sword samurai 3 / fighter X relies on your GM accepting anything written, even if it's obviously a mistake. As Scavion says, it's effectively a fighter/samurai gestalt with all the class features of both.
A dwarf brawling blademaster doesn't use a mount and can rack up a fair amount of damage. Their racial favored class bonus adds another half-level to damage on a challenge and they get TWF without the Dex requirements (or the -2 attack for TWF) so they get a fair few attacks to add that 1.5*level to. Add Order of the Flame to that for more damage and to make getting more challenges easier, or Order of the Eastern Star for a bit of defence.
Feats might go something like
3: Enforcer (Flame) or dragon style (Eastern Star), TWF
5: Hurtful (Flame) or unconquerable resolve (Eastern Star)
6: Improved TWF
7: Unconquerable resolve (Flame) or chain challenge (Eastern Star)
The first question here has to be "what counts as a Samurai?" Only single class? Is a dip into something different still a Samurai? Is a 50/50 spread multiclass still a Samurai? Is something that only dips into the class a Samurai?
Second question is "what level ranges are we talking about?"
Personally, I've always considered the samurai class to be separate and distinct from wanting to role play a samurai type character.
But I generally agree that both cavaliers and samurai as a class tend to be on the weaker side. Cavalier can be good at damage, but is very much a one trick pony.
Samurai doesn't even really get that.
During my last campaign the samurai outclassed the barbarian, warpriest and ranger. The player picked up Order of Vengeance which patched up the AB and allowed an increasing debuff on hit (shaken with up to -5, scaling Intimidate bonus, Cornugon Smash). Then he added Power Attack, challenge, a katana with its crit range, +2 to crit confirmation from weapon expertise as well as Critical Versatility, and his damage output was rather too high for the encounters. Often enough the debuffs didn't even matter.
Resolve made quite a difference when it came to saves. AC was solid thanks to mithral full-plate. He even became solid in skills when he equipped a leftover headband of vast intelligence +6.
Half of this stuff can be picked up with any martial class - but it still adds significantly to power.
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I've been looking into samurai's and they're pretty cool. And while the power of a class is barely anything, they're pretty underpowered. I chopped around a bit, and I couldn't really find any great builds for them. So, if any of you have powerful builds of samurai's that can compare to fighters and barbarians, please do share them.Warrior Poet is pretty strong with Slashing Grace. Ironbound Sword is like a soft gestalt with Fighter which is pretty bad ass. You take 3 levels Samurai and then put the rest into Fighter.
But with Slashing grace you can't use the warrior poet ability of +1/2 level to damage.
Assuming you use the weapon 2 handed
With a 14 str + power attack you'll do more damage with (str not dumped) than you will with a 30 dex after 4th level
With a
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During my last campaign the samurai outclassed the barbarian, warpriest and ranger. The player picked up Order of Vengeance which patched up the AB and allowed an increasing debuff on hit (shaken with up to -5, scaling Intimidate bonus, Cornugon Smash). Then he added Power Attack, challenge, a katana with its crit range, +2 to crit confirmation from weapon expertise as well as Critical Versatility, and his damage output was rather too high for the encounters. Often enough the debuffs didn't even matter.
Resolve made quite a difference when it came to saves. AC was solid thanks to mithral full-plate. He even became solid in skills when he equipped a leftover headband of vast intelligence +6.
Half of this stuff can be picked up with any martial class - but it still adds significantly to power.
Honestly this sounds like a situation where the player had better system mastery than the others. I would consider warpriest, ranger, and barbarian to typically be stronger. Especially warpriest.
Ultimately, I think your example illustrates the issue that is someone with system mastery can make stronger characters, even if they're using a weaker chassis.
And, I guess should also add that like any full BAB character damage output isn't really a problem. A full BAB + two-handed weapon + power attack has pretty much always meant you're relevant.
The real issue (for many full BAB characters) is what they can contribute outside of damage.
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If you only consider the offensive abilities of the samurai they do seem underpowered. They are slightly better than a cavalier when it comes to offensive abilities. The ability to pick up fighter only feats gives them a slight advantage over the cavalier. But resolve is a lot better than tactician.
Being able to remove a condition as a standard action is useful ability to keep you in the combat. But the ability to roll a fortitude or will twice and take the better result is a huge advantage. The fact that you can do it as an immediate action is even better. Sure it can only be used a limited number of times per day, but when you really need to make a save or be taken out it is golden. Greater resolve is even better. The ability to negate a critical hit also goes a long way to keeping a character alive.
If you go with the order of the warrior the Way of the Samurai gives you the ability to roll one attack roll 3 times and choose the best result. Assuming you are using a Katana that would mean your chance of rolling a critical hit is around 40% without improve critical. With improved critical (or a keen weapon) that goes up to about 66% of the time. Don’t forget that a samurai also gets a +2 bonus to confirm critical hits with his chosen weapon.
They also get the ability to add a +4 bonus to their saves as a free action. This can be used in conjunction with resolve, meaning you roll your save twice with a +4 bonus and take the better result.
If you want to play a character who mows down minions like they are grass play a fighter or barbarian. If on the other hand you want to play something that can go up against the boss and still be standing after you take it down a samurai is a good choice. To play a samurai to its full potential requires the player to think and plan more than other classes. You have some very powerful abilities but only have a limited number of uses per day. If you waste them on frivolous encounters you don’t have them when you really need them.
getting good damage out of challenge and power attack doesn’t sound like a big system mastery achievement, and being good at saves with Resolve isn’t that surprising either.
Really, i could see the opposite being the issue just as easily: in a group where no one was optimizing or experienced, samurai has a fairly high floor compared to barbarian, ranger, and warpriest, which are all loaded with and trying to sell players into trap options. Samurai doesn’t really offer you many choices, and the features are all straightforward and effective. Certainly not going be a preferred class for optimizers though, as there just aren’t many options; handful of archetypes and one bonus feat in the first 11 levels.
Certainly true about non-combat role though,
Sorry, I think you misunderstood my point.
Challenge + power attack isn't an achievement, but it is "good damage". But combining Order of Vengeance with Cornugon Smash is a higher level of system mastery, because it gives a bigger debuff and gives the player a free intimidate. Even better would be using the weapon enhancement ability that gives an attack as a swift action against an intimidate enemy. And I also recall a way to combo it with sickened. I'm forgetting the exact things, but I did this with an antipaladin quite some time ago.
So the player likely has more system mastery than the other players, but isn't necessarily a master of the system.
Even better would be using the weapon enhancement ability that gives an attack as a swift action against an intimidate enemy. And I also recall a way to combo it with sickened. I'm forgetting the exact things, but I did this with an antipaladin quite some time ago.Hurtful feat plus Cruel enchantment maybe?
Yep, those are the ones.
Super great combo. I do it on almost every two handed weapon user that I don't have another plan for.
Comboing intimidate + sickened is great.
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Honestly this sounds like a situation where the player had better system mastery than the others. I would consider warpriest, ranger, and barbarian to typically be stronger. Especially warpriest.
Ultimately, I think your example illustrates the issue that is someone with system mastery can make stronger characters, even if they're using a weaker chassis.
Oh, I agree. My point was: Don't get irritated by labels for the class, your character can still be fine, even thriving.
On a more practical note, the example was a recommendation for the Order of Vengeance.
And, I guess should also add that like any full BAB character damage output isn't really a problem. A full BAB + two-handed weapon + power attack has pretty much always meant you're relevant.
Yes. The message "relax, you will be fine" could be way more prominent in this forum.
The real issue (for many full BAB characters) is what they can contribute outside of damage.
Yup, at least if the player cares about that.
Even better would be using the weapon enhancement ability that gives an attack as a swift action against an intimidate enemy. And I also recall a way to combo it with sickened. I'm forgetting the exact things, but I did this with an antipaladin quite some time ago.Hurtful feat plus Cruel enchantment maybe?
So we are thinking
Ironbound Sword 3-5/Mobile Fighter 15-17
With Order of Vengeance, Power Attack, Cornugon Smash or Enforcer (potentially to make the most of Merciful combatant), Hurful, and a Cruel weapon
For a pseudo sickening haste like pounce build
So we are thinkingIronbound Sword 3-5/Mobile Fighter 15-17
With Order of Vengeance, Power Attack, Cornugon Smash or Enforcer (potentially to make the most of Merciful combatant), Hurful, and a Cruel weapon
For a pseudo sickening haste like pounce build
A violent display Order of Vengeance Samurai?
To go further still by trying to utilise the free Critical Focus feat the Order grants
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if you stick to strict RAW and abuse these wordings:
Her samurai levels count as fighter levels and stack with fighter levels for the purposes of fighter and samurai prerequisites and class features.
and from vivisectionist
If a character already has sneak attack from another class, the levels from the classes that grant sneak attack stack to determine the effective rogue level for the sneak attack’s extra damage dice (so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on). This ability replaces bomb.
take order of the bolossom and get that 1d6 sneak attack.
the i steal a build i saw here a few weeks ago
Level 10 Dimensional Savant early access:
Half-Orc with Shaman's Apprentice ART.
Samurai 1-6
1 +1 Feat, Endurance (B)
3 +1 Feat
5 +1 Feat
6 +1 Combat Feat (B)Horizon Walker 1-3
7 +1 Feat, Favored Terrain: Astral Plane
8 Terrain Mastery: Astral Plane
9 Flickering Step, Terrain Dominance: Astral PlaneFighter 1
10 Dimensional Agility (B), Dimensional Assault (B), Dimensional Dervish (B), Dimensional Savant (B)***
So at level 10 you end up with [6+Wis] uses of Dimension Door per day, and the full Dimensional Savant feat path.
then take 1 level of alchemist (vivisectionist)
Samurai levels count as fighter AND rogue levels for determining bonus feats AND sneak attack.
so its basically a triple gestalt of rogue and fighter abilities on a samurai, that can teleport and flank with themselves. pick up TWF and use that Wakizashi prof.
you get a sneak attack as a rogue of your samurai level, fighter feats as a fighter of your samurai level, and full samurai abilities.
hell, you could even drop those 3 horizon walker levels and grab flickering step and just pick up the teleportation mastery feat.
yes its dumb that works. yes its cheesy. No i dont think those abilities got a good proof reading. but thats what those things say they do. and who am i to argue against RAW
Yes.
Personally, I love the Warrior Poet for a martial that can actually move... and still be good at out of combat social skills... oh my. What more do you need? Already better than the average Fighter in a lot of respects.