I would LOVE to trade these things out for just about anything else, but archetypes and epiphanies don't touch either of them.
Why? I don't even fully understand why mystic gets them baseline either.
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Maybe they'll add some options in the Starfinder Galaxy Exploration Manual to replace those.
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They're ribbons to give the mystic some esper/telepath flavor.
They don't get traded out probably because anything you trade them for will also have to be a ribbon. So archetypes that exchange more valuable class features on other classes can't touch them. Epiphanies could touch them, but they would only be able to give you a different ribbon rather than a meatier class feature, which is why I think they haven't had a replacement.
"On the R&D team, any ability meant to convey flavor rather than a mechanical advantage is referred to as a ribbon—a thing that’s mostly for show. Thieves’ Cant is a great example of a ribbon ability, and Storm Guide also falls into this category."
PF1E had a lot of these as well, like a druid's resistance to fey influence, or a ranger's woodland stride.
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Hmm, I guess I didn't think of them as ribbons because of how useful they *can* be to the right character concept.
I'm just building a fighty, no-nonsense mystic who doesn't really need any of the telepathy flavored stuff. It feels really odd to get those things on a heavily armored, traditionalist dwarf spell sergeant who yells "I'll take em on my shield!" and carries around firewhiskey.
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Maybe he understands the need to be quiet and learns a bit of telepathy just so he can shout warcries on stealth ops.
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I would really like if I could play mystics without being forced into being psychic or pretending I lack some of my class features.
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A spellcaster who's flavor is a spellcaster instead of a psychic, techie, or reality warper could be fun.
I just don't get why the mystic waits till level 11 to do what a shirren can effectively do from level 1.
A spellcaster who's flavor is a spellcaster instead of a psychic, techie, or reality warper could be fun."Spellcaster" is a mechanic, not a flavor. You might as well say "I want to play a fighter who's flavor is 'fighter' rather than marksmen or swordmaster or martial artist".
I think this might be doable, if easier under some other systems. The difference would be someone that just gets in hit and damage vs. Someone that has a lot of fancy tricks and nuance
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I would also like to voice my support for alternate character options. If they're ribbons, that's fine. Give people a choice of their ribbons.
A spellcaster who's flavor is a spellcaster instead of a psychic, techie, or reality warper could be fun."Spellcaster" is a mechanic, not a flavor. You might as well say "I want to play a fighter who's flavor is 'fighter' rather than marksmen or swordmaster or martial artist".
Eh, there is a flavor that is 'Magic is my bread and butter' like a wizard that is missing from the mystic, technomancer, precog, and witchwarper.
Do I really want to see such a class printed? No. Do I think it's a missing niche in the classes presented so far? No. Do I think the flavor of a pure spellcaster would open up the world to new stories and characer concepts, well... no. Would I be opposed to one being printed anyway? Also no.
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Personally I do think there's some value in having a class or classes that harken back to that pure fantasy be existent in the setting, and that they do open up new stories & character concepts, or at least better convey them.
For example, characters from a primitive, preindustrial culture that's been recently discovered, or one that developed along magical rather than technological routes - there's one in Near Space that fits this mold that I can't remember the name of right now.
Time travel is another option; a character coming from, say, Pathfinder era Golarion into the Starfinder area could be a fun character concept for someone who's very familiar with Pathfinder & is looking to get into Starfinder & learn about the setting as their character does, or such a character could be an interesting living macguffin npc that you could build a story around different factions trying to use them to learn about or capture.
And of course there's the possibility of an ancient immortal spell caster awaking from a magical hibernation and trying to take over the universe. In three or four years if they decide to do a "Baba Yaga shows back up on Triaxus" AP then Baba Yaga should still be a witch, not a mystic, by way of example.
There are certainly ways of dong it without making a whole new class, and back on topic in this example we'd all obviously rather see a couple minor alternate class abilities than a whole new class printed that's "mystic but without mindlink & telepathic bond"
The problem with removing the level 11 ability for a something else effects oher abilties. At least half the Connection choices have a level 12 ability that uses the Telepathic bond so you would loose out on that or have to add in a chunk of alternates, and yes I do know you can go epithanies for them instead.
Bit like with the Experimental Mechanic, their level 17 ability is now useless.
Also the comment about a Level 1 Shirren, a planet wide comms over 30ft coms is not the same.
Once the bond is formed, it works over any distance (although not from one plane to another)
I just don't get why the mystic waits till level 11 to do what a shirren can effectively do from level 1.A shirren can communicate telepathically to someone within 30 ft. This confers no benefit to the recipients of that communication.
Telepathic Bond essentially creates a telepathic chat room with 6 other targets that allows everyone bonded to communicate telepathically. And it functions over any distance as long as you're on the same plane of existence. And the bond is permanent.
Respectfully, the only similar factor is that telepathy is involved.
The shirren can telep to player a , A can telep to the shirren and the shirren can telep to B and then vice versa. To the people involved having the chatroom instead is a convenience but in terms of a talking to each other mechanically there's no difference.
From the FAQ Can creatures respond to a telepath?
Yes, until the telepathic creature ends communication.
I mean there is the practical element of, how often are you going to need that unlimited range qualifier?
That's a genuine question; I don't have enough play experience with Starfinder to know, but conventional wisdom in a d20 game is still, "don't split the party" so I'd imagine it wouldn't come up terribly often.
In our games, often comms are almost identical to telepathy. We assume if you have your helmet up you have an earpiece integrated and ready.
If we split up with a bunch of interference between us preventing comms, then long range telepathy would be worth something, but it hasn't happened yet.
The unlimited range might not really crop up as much as it could, depending on the game but 30ft is rather short for a game with weapon ranges passing over 100ft for a good number of the characters. I know if your Telepath sits in the middle you get 60ft but that becomes very awkward.
Also consider how long a conversation would take for simple battle plans would take if you constantly had one person relaying the info back and forth between everyone. A group of 5 would take a while.
However other then the 'secret' conversation which can be tapped into, it is a bit pointless when you have this
A personal comm unit (see page 218) is integrated into every suit of armor.
A personal comm unit is pocket-sized device that combines a minor portable computer (treat as a tier 0 computer with no upgrades or modules) and a cellular communication device, allowing wireless communication with other comm units in both audio- and text-based formats at planetary range (see page 272).
Sure. Full party telepathy at unlimited range is mechanically no different than 1 on 1 telepathy at 30 ft because they're both telepathy.
No. you were told the reason they're no different.
You ignored the reason they're no different: because there IS back and forth communication
You ignored a citation from the faq that they're no different because there is in fact back and forth communication.
You continue to insist the only thing that they have in common is the telepathy, rather than the ability to communicate back and forth.
Functionally, they provide very different advantages. Same mechanic, entirely different abilities.
Besides range, name one. If you can do anything but repeat your claims its just telepathy.
Mystic bond has some utility when
1) You're further away from 60 feet AND 2) for some reason can't use your comm units. Since 99% of the reason you need to telep to your party is over dinner so your guests don't see you using the calm units to tell them not to eat the salmon moose, it's a pretty limited area of the venn diagram
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99% of the value in Telepathic Bond for me is that it's a prerequisite for the Spell Bond Epiphany :D
(...does that technically make it a 'tax'?)
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The unlimited range might not really crop up as much as it could, depending on the game but 30ft is rather short for a game with weapon ranges passing over 100ft for a good number of the characters. I know if your Telepath sits in the middle you get 60ft but that becomes very awkward.
Also consider how long a conversation would take for simple battle plans would take if you constantly had one person relaying the info back and forth between everyone. A group of 5 would take a while.
However other then the 'secret' conversation which can be tapped into, it is a bit pointless when you have this
A personal comm unit (see page 218) is integrated into every suit of armor.
A personal comm unit is pocket-sized device that combines a minor portable computer (treat as a tier 0 computer with no upgrades or modules) and a cellular communication device, allowing wireless communication with other comm units in both audio- and text-based formats at planetary range (see page 272).
The practical difficulty in relaying battle plans one person at a time through a single go-between in a 4-6 person group probably depends a bit on how strict the DM is. In real, diegetic terms it would be difficult but in practical game play terms, you have one player explaining the plan & saying "I tell the mystic that" and the mystic says "Okay I relay it to everyone", and you're done with it, unless the DM is strict enough that they're going to impose penalties or hold up people's turns in combat for the information to be delayed. And while I can't speak for anyone else, I probably wouldn't enjoy playing in a game with a DM who's that much of a hardass.
I can definitely see situations where silent, unobservable - to a point, detect thoughts is a spell that exists, & telepathic spy is a feat that exists, & I'm sure there are other methods of "listening in" - communication without the go-between is going to be useful, with or without the range. Infiltration or stealth missions that require both radio silence & high levels of coordination aren't an uncommon thing in sci fi by any means.
But still it's a situational enough thing that I could see someone wanting to or being willing to trade it out, which is the ultimate point of this thread. Even if it weren't so situational, I wouldn't have a problem with someone wanting to trade out major elements of a class for customization purposes. That's kind of the whole point of archetypes.
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Going against my earlier point where I found the limitations of limited telepathy were things that could be reasonably ignored in actual play(the information having to be relayed through a central telepath is a non factor if everyone's at the same table, in the same voice call, or in the same group chat), or things that might not come up a lot(range is a non-factor if you don't split the party), I'm gonna argue that comms wouldn't necessarily be made obsolete by telepathy for in character reasons that might not come up a lot in actual game play.
I mean, aside from the fact that you're almost certainly going to have personal comms from the get go & a system wide comm unit on the ship well before you get telepathic bond as a class feature, if you're in a game that's going to require the unlimited range of talking to people in different solar systems, you're probably going to want to be able to talk to more than just the three or so non-party contacts included in the bond(assuming a 4 player party, all bonded).
Even if it's not a game benefit, in character I'd assume most groups would want the ability to phone home, talk to family, friends, anyone who isn't one of the limited number of people they're trapped in a tin can floating through space with.
On that same note I can think of reasons why someone would simply not want to be part of a telepathic bond. I actually played a PF1e campaign where one person was running a Vitalist, one of dreamscarred press's psionic classes, and they have a similar ability, albeit more limited at low levels, and while I found it undeniably useful, often life saving - this being in a standard fantasy setting where comms don't exist - in character it also often became grating & annoying, as it essentially meant the party had severely hampered privacy from one another. That lead to some heated tempers on character more than once.
Being trapped on a space ship with people & not being able to shut them out of your mind sounds exhausting to me. At least with comms, you can go to your quarters, lock the door, put the thing on silent, & if it really matters they can come & knock.
Huh. Never realized you can't 'leave' the conversation. I suppose your group would need to make a deal with the Mystic to replace the bond when on ship. I agree for RP principles, not being able to have a bit of privacy would be awkward.
Why you on Earth do you think that telepathic bond is constantly reading each others thoughts?
It's just that at any moment you can decide to talk to the others whenever you like.
You only reveal the informations you want to reveal!
Do not put literal meaning into the name, please.
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As a side note, I often like to describe characters as *constantly* having the telepathic "talk" button pressed. That guy who just cannot shut up, given access to your mental phone number that takes zero effort to call, will be terrifically annoying.
The advantages you requested are range
Done by comm units
duration
No. This is not an advantage at all. There is no difference between at will and 24 hours.
number of individuals affected
Again, not an advantage. The shirren can send to the entire party. The entire party can send to the shirren. I'm sure the shirren would rather be left out of two party members talking about The latest Protons of our Lives soap opera but mechanically there's very little difference.
the ability to grant full telepathic communication to a group of individuals (doesn't always have to be party members)
is the thing you're arguing is advantageous, not a reason full telepathic communication is an advantage. Entirely circular.
not needing a common language for your limited telepathy
If you have someone willing to take a telepathic bond with the party there's no reason they wouldn't take a share language spell.
making team comms obsolete
A free item being obsolete is an advantage because....?
stealth
The shirren playing telephone is just as stealthy.
, and the simple freedom to get creative with any of these.
I'm not seeing any more creativity here than with a shirren playing telephone and no, the obvious ad hom there will not make your case.
The problem is the situations you're describing where there is an overlap between party is more than 30/60 feet apart AND at the same time they also can't use comm units. That is a pretty rare confluence of events.
Why you on Earth do you think that telepathic bond is constantly reading each others thoughts?
It's just that at any moment you can decide to talk to the others whenever you like.You only reveal the informations you want to reveal!
Do not put literal meaning into the name, please.
It's not about what you reveal. It's about the fact that they can commune with you at any time. I'm not worried about them reading my thoughts, I'm worried about them constantly going "Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, are you there? Are you there? Are you there? Are you there? Hey? Are you there?"
You choose when to respond & what they receive, but by the wording of the spell/ability, you cannot just shut them out & not receive from them.
Side note, since we're picking on shirren a bit here, I thought I'd go through & see what other races could substitute the ability, & while it's possible I missed a few(didn't double check every single one & not counting any alternate racial traits that might cover it), I did come up with a pretty hefty list;
Lashunta, barathu, entu colony/symbiote, formian, khizar, kiirinta, uplifted bears, urogs, & worlanisi all have limited telepathy.
Grays & stellifera can cast telepathic message at will, which I'll stipulate would certainly be more limiting but still pick up a fair bit of slack.
And anassanoi just have straight up telepathy though still with the 30ft range.
So that's at least thirteen playable races including two core races that can partly cover the functionality of this ability.
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And in the interest of fairness I figured I'd lay out some scenarios where the telepathic bond would be objectively more useful;
1. The more socially inclined members of the group infiltrate a setting such as a business meeting or high society party where they're gathering information through social manipulation. The information needs to be relayed back to the other members of the group in real time, and security measures prevent the use of comms.
2. The group will be entering an area where environmental factors - weather, magnetic fields, some factor of geography - interferes with comm signals. For range, one member of the telepathic bond - perhaps an npc - remains on the ship as a rescue in case things go south.
3. A larger scale version of the above, the party is going to be exploring a new system in the Vast & has no idea what to expect there, & establish a telepathic bond with a contact in their home system as a redundant safety measure in case something happens to their ship's comm systems.
4. The group has decided to set up an ambush in a pincer maneuver with their positions outside the range of limited telepathy. Their targets are scanning airwaves for local communications, rendering even the text feature of comms too much of a liability for the mission.
I could come up with some others but they'd mostly be variations on those basic concepts. Of them, I'd point out that only #3 really lends itself to needing the permanent nature of the mystic ability instead of the temporary nature of just using the telepathic bond spell. I'd also point out that #1 & to a lesser extent, #4, conveniently ignore that the existence of telepathic races & telepathic spell casters is a known factor in the setting and as such one would expect that there would be some security feature to account for it.
And all have this element of being, well... contrived is probably too harsh a word for it but certainly set up to highlight this one particular ability.
You choose when to respond & what they receive, but by the wording of the spell/ability, you cannot just shut them out & not receive from them.
In a d 20 modern campaign we had radios and when one of the players would talk on it he'd make a pretty good radio static noise before talking.
After the group got a telepath he kept doing it..
Apparently thats just how he thinks not part of the radio....
Love the radio sounds. Might steal that.
Considering one element of Starfinder could be the space exploration, your heavy armour Soldier is going to suck for scouting ahead, where as the Operative and who ever else might be beyond 30 ft ahead.
My Mystic is a Lashunta, so telepathy is a thing she has. Her class expanding on it I kinda like.
It wasn't said that its a constant mind read, Like FormerFiend said, having that one peppy character who is constantly trying to talk to you will get annoying if you can't just lock them out your room so you can sleep.
Through personal experience as both player and GM in multiple games, the party spreading out to be beyond 60ft was not uncommon. A melee character likely move up to the enemy while your softer, squishy people might back track away from something large.
Currently, only reason my Mystic stays within 30ft of allies is the off chance they need a group heal. I've seen spell casters or 'sniper' style characters move back to seriously hamper the effectiveness of enemy beasts.
I can asure you, once I get the ability my Mystic is staying 80ft away from the enemy (Her pistols range)
I do want to stress that I am by no means arguing that the class feature shouldn't exist. I think it's a great thing to have if it fits into your character fantasy.
I can just also see why someone wouldn't want to have it as part of their character fantasy & how it would seem somewhat superfluous or even counter to what their vision for their character might be, and while useful it's not so vital as to be something that absolutely shouldn't be switched out.
I do think it's a issue in that the mystic class is essentially the cleric, the sorcerer, the oracle, the witch, the shaman, & the psychic all rolled into one package, in that it is a spell caster who's power comes from a connection with another force or entity or source; i.e., domains, bloodlines, mysteries, patrons, spirits, disciplines. It's also, mechanically, the main stand in for playing a druid, paladin, inquisitor, or warpriest.
A majority of that is confined to the connections with the bulk of the influence being cleric/oracle, but the mind-link & telepathic bond being baseline powers definitely strike as part of the psychic that got stamped on.
So while I like the mystic class in some respects I do feel there's an occasional problem in it having to cater to all these different character fantasies that don't necessarily compliment each other well, & might run counter to one another.
So nobody uses Signal Jammers in your setting (or anyone else's, from all the replies)? They're in the CRB, and even if your enemies don't use one, I'd think once you hit mystic level 11 you should buy one for your own ship, and then you jam all enemy comms within 12 miles while you communicate flawlessly via telepathic bond. It stops most forms of organised enemy camp/army/base/crew coordinating at all as you take them out piecemeal.
My own campaign also involves hacking/listening into comms quite a bit, but I concede this isn't explicitly supported by the rules (even though it is an action/scifi staple). But Signal Jammers are right there in the CRB.
A scenario you missed out is if PCs get captured, either as a deliberate ploy (to get inside an enemy perimeter), or as the result of a combat going bad. They'd have all their gear including comms removed, but with unlimited range telepathy could still communicate, even if in separate cells, if some weren't captured, if the operative escapes and sneaks off alone to check out the guards, etc. etc.
As to the shirren range thing, my own campaign involves the operative stealthing off ahead to do recon a lot. This can be coordinated through comms (but again, there Signal Jammers, or enemies could be listening in) but is definitely well outside shirren/lashunta range.
Fair enough point, that is a scenario I left out, though I'd argue it could be classified as a variation of "environmental effects interfering with comms" or "airwaves being monitored". Still that's neither here nor there.
Though I might also say that, antimagic fields are also a thing, and dispel magic is a thing, both of which could be used to counter the telepathic bond.
Signal jammers can also be overcome with a computer or engineering check, and I'd also imagine that signal jammers are going to be of situational usefulness given their range of effect; you aren't always going to want to block out your own signal & you don't always want to advertise "shady things are going down in the center of this four mile radius" by shutting everyone else down.
Part of why I brought that up is that either way is... not necessarily a contrived, that's still a bit harsh, but it's an obstacle put there particularly to undermine one tool & create an opportunity to use the other.
And in the case of them being captured, well, again, if they've been captured by someone capable of holding a party with an 11th level mystic in it I'm assuming their captor has some way of suppressing the mystic's spells which could also be used to suppress the telepathic bond. Though in the scenario that the mystic isn't one of the ones who's been captured & the captors don't know the captives have a mystic in their party, that's more excusable.
Still I guess any group that gets captured before the mystic reaches lvl 11 is SOL in that situation.
As for the "enemies may be listening" thing, well, comm units do explicitly have a text feature, so as long as you aren't in an active fire fight, put it on silent & use that.
So yeah, more situational uses for the ability, no disagreement on that from me. Aside from the capture scenario, though, none of them really demand the use of the permanent class ability rather than the spell, & none of them are fool proof.
It's a useful tool & I'm not trying to argue against it's existence. I'm just saying that it isn't so essential a tool that no mystic should ever be without it. After all, not every group is going to have a mystic to start with, so if they can get by without it, then a group with a mystic should be able to get by if the mystic trades it out for something else. Though it'd also be nice if the mystic made it clear that they were going to do that from the start so no one makes any plans that rely on it.
Telepathic Bond is the most powerful ability in the game because it allows interstellar instant communication. One assumes between them the Church of Abadar and the Stewards have all the important star systems covered with linked and networked agents who pass on important financial, military, and political information, but if you can find an important but less covered one you can make a killing through information arbitrage and shipping in things that have sudden shortages before competitors can act.
Useful to a party of adventurers? Less so, but get an NPC buddy, put him in a low tier shuttle, and send him places you want a constant information link or advance scout.
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Telepathic Bond is the most powerful ability in the game because it allows interstellar instant communication. One assumes between them the Church of Abadar and the Stewards have all the important star systems covered with linked and networked agents who pass on important financial, military, and political information, but if you can find an important but less covered one you can make a killing through information arbitrage and shipping in things that have sudden shortages before competitors can act.
Useful to a party of adventurers? Less so, but get an NPC buddy, put him in a low tier shuttle, and send him places you want a constant information link or advance scout.
We've established that it's a useful ability.
That doesn't necessitate that it be a mandatory ability for every mystic.