Why would an adventuring party ever bother buying torches?

[Yqatuba]

Considering almost every caster class can cast Light as a level 0 spell, which can be cast at will for free and is better than a torch in many ways (it works underwater, for one), I can't see any reason to use a torch instead.

[Matthew Downie]

They might not have a caster.

They might have a caster who wants to use different cantrips.

They might want more light sources than the number of casters, in case they have to split up.

They might want to set fire to things, or blend in with an angry mob.

[Java Man]

Usually when I carry a torch it is to use it as a fire/ignition source.

[HighLordNiteshade]

Maybe the casters are all unconscious (or dead) right as their spells end. Poof! Party is in the dark.

[Quixote]

A torch burns for an hour. There may be times where casting light once every 10 minutes (or Dancing Lights every 10 rounds) is not as feasible or convenient as having a torch.

It's admittedly a low-level issue, and the Pathfinder systrm is definitely is not focused on that sort of thing. But for those first few sessions when you would technically have to worry about carrying capacity, feed for the pack mules and other such mundane tedium, it can add an element of gritty realism and be another pseudo-hazard to navigate. Or at least, the lack of it in a few levels will feel like a reward.

[DeathlessOne]

Swarms... One of the most important reasons.

[Yqatuba]

Matthew Downie wrote:

They might not have a caster.

Has anyone here actually had a party with no casters whatsoever (not even 4/9 casters)?

[Sysryke]

Yes, but only in intentionally low/no magic (or at least no casters) campaigns. Basically carrying a torch (or does Pathfinder have sun rods? can't remember) is a good idea for the same reasons it's always a good idea to have one melee, and one ranged option. Just in case. Every adventurer, should always have a tiny bit of boy scout in them; Always Be Prepared.

[yukongil]

I make sure I carry torches even at high levels as casters (my current 14th level Warpriest has 3 in inventory); non-magical sources of light, heat and fire come in use, especially at higher levels when magical shenanigans start cropping up with greater frequency (lookin' at you anti-magic field, Symbol of dispelling, etc...)

[Mark Hoover 330]

I'm almost always the GM and I can say, in my OWN games there is always at least 1 caster. Whether or not that caster remembered to take Light or Dancing Lights as a cantrip isn't always set though.

Thing is, my players never have their PCs carrying torches. One of them typically has a lantern, early in the game. Several if not most PCs also have an ability to see in the dark or see FARTHER in the dark, per my players' racial preferences. They choose lanterns b/c then they can use the oil to double as a weapon against swarms.

One guy, years ago, specifically called out that his character had Low Light vision and that to accommodate he carried candles. He also pointed out that his familiar could cast Prestidigitation at will and asked for one of the "by GM's discretion" abilities of the cantrip the owl could light the candles or snuff them. He was in turn referencing cantrip abilities from AD&D 1e's Unearthed Arcana, so I said sure.

The bird would light the candles, hold them aloft with Prestidigitation when needed, and manage keeping them going in case the party's lantern wasn't avail.

These are all anecdotal so take them with a massive grain of salt, but that's my experience.

[Sysryke]

Why would a character with low light vision need candles? Are we just assuming several encounters in totally lightless dungeons or caverns? I feel like this gets overlooked fairly frequently, but low light vision is night vision. Low light vision is what owls, and hunting cats, and several other animals have. All those beings need to be able to see as well as daylight is a single star, a candle miles away in clear terrain, or even just a tiny bit of refracted light. Until you are several turns into a dungeon AND away from any and all vents or windows, AND there are no crystals, lichen, or otherwise emitting even a hint of luminessence, low light vision has you covered. It's why a party of elves doesn't need torches or other lights to go hunting at night. Sorry for the mini-rant, it just seems like low-light vision gets undervalued or misused too often. I get that the special circumstances exist, and then, yay dark vision!

[Matthew Downie]

Sysryke wrote:

Are we just assuming several encounters in totally lightless dungeons or caverns?

Yes.

That's pretty normal when you're dungeoneering and dealing with enemies with true darkvision.

Convenient luminous lichen only exists by narrative fiat.

Sysryke wrote:

All those beings need to be able to see as well as daylight is a single star, a candle miles away in clear terrain, or even just a tiny bit of refracted light.

Rules wrote:

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

And as far as I can tell, low-light vision only allows you to see things by candlelight that are within ten feet of the candle...

[Sysryke]

I guess at that point, we have to ask, what is the range of normal vision for bright light and normal light? On just an average day, is that bright or normal light coming from the sky? Standing on a hill overlooking plains, an character could reasonably spot something moving from a mile or so away. So, where is the practical cut off here?

I realize game rules can't/don't always reflect real world mechanics, so what are the actual effective numbers? Not trying to be snarky or sarcastic here, actually asking. This seems to be one of those areas where flavor and mechanics aren't actually meshing well.

[YogoZuno]

Quote:

I guess at that point, we have to ask, what is the range of normal vision for bright light and normal light? On just an average day, is that bright or normal light coming from the sky? Standing on a hill overlooking plains, an character could reasonably spot something moving from a mile or so away. So, where is the practical cut off here?

Actual daylight is bright light, normal light is a well-lit interior.

You are conflating a couple of things here that sound similar. The range of a light source is how far away it sheds that light and illuminates objects. Normal vision has no maximum range, and can potentially allow seeing any object that is illuminated and within line of sight. Darkvision, specifically, has a maximum range, but only works in the absence of light. Due to the illumination range of most lighting effects, this range is still usually longer than the lights, allowing Darkvision characters to see things outside the light. Low light vision is the outlier - for someone with low light, you double the illumination ranges, but only for that character. A character with a normal light source and low light can usually see further than a character with darkvision (20' normal light, another 20' dim light, 40' total, doubled to 80' for low light).

So, yes, in theory, a character can see to the horizon. Although there are distance modifiers for Perception checks, so there are practical limits to what a character can be aware of.

[Firebug]

Going by spellcasting services (not that the players charge each other), a single casting of Light is worth about 5 gp.

That's the same price as 500 torches.

Given a '15 minute adventuring day', I doubt most games need 500 hours of light.

[avr]

Low light should be a night-vision thing Sysryke, but by the rules it's not really. A house rule could change that but it shouldn't be a surprise that people roll with it.

Torches are usually something like a single one at the bottom of your pack at the lowest levels, just in case IME.

[Scavion]

Torches probably not, but all my martials tend to pick up an ioun torch or tie a lantern to their belt. Atleast until they get a magic item that emits light since like 30% of all magic weapons emit light.

[Waterhammer]

My characters always have at least one torch at any level of power. For reasons already mentioned. Light in non magic zones, starting fires, etc.
I also like to carry a few candles. Not a fan of the lantern though. I always imagine an accident with burning oil. Though the game rules don’t really cover that event, that I remember.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Waterhammer wrote:

My characters always have at least one torch at any level of power. For reasons already mentioned. Light in non magic zones, starting fires, etc.

I also like to carry a few candles. Not a fan of the lantern though. I always imagine an accident with burning oil. Though the game rules don’t really cover that event, that I remember.

I've never understood this "torch as a backup light source" choice. The action to light a torch is a full round action, unless using a tindertwig, same as using a lantern. I get not wanting to have an accident with the lantern oil, but otherwise the lantern is superior and for 5GP more it can go underwater for 5 rounds.

Holding a lantern or a torch requires 1 hand. Lantern oil can be used as a splash weapon, hits Touch AC and requires no special skills to use; wielding a torch in a fight is an Improvised weapon that deals 1d3 Bludgeoning and 1 Fire.

Finally, for non-magical light, there is the Sunrod. Once past level 1, 2 GP should be affordable to every PC. A sunrod is 6 hours (same as a lantern) of 30' of light (better illumination than most mundane sources) that requires a Standard to use and 1 hand to hold. It can go underwater, isn't extinguished in high wind, but can't be a weapon w/out multiple feats.

Now, a torch is better than nothing, I understand that, but if the PCs have 2gp or more to spare and access to an alchemist of any kind, I can't imagine any reason that the torch is their backup mundane light source.

[Theaitetos]

Orcs can use torches as martial weapons, because they contain "orc" in their name. :)

[yukongil]

get out :P

[TxSam88]

We always opt for the Everburning Torch or an Ioun Torch...

[FamiliarMask]

avr wrote:

Low light should be a night-vision thing Sysryke, but by the rules it's not really. A house rule could change that but it shouldn't be a surprise that people roll with it.

"Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." CRB pg. 564

This line is often missed when discussing Low-light Vision, because it's only listed in the Special Abilities appendix, rather than in the race descriptions or the Vision and Light section.

It's also interesting that most descriptions of low-light vision in the book, including the one there, only list it doubling the distance you can see in dim light, while the entry in Vision and Light says "can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."

The rules are really kind of a mess...

[DeathlessOne]

I'm not seeing the problem. Is it just an issue with the way it was written or the location?

Spoiler:

For those with low-light vision:
Bright light = Bright Light
Normal Light = Normal Light
Dim Light = Normal Light (moon-lit night)
"Dimmer" Light = Dim Light (overcast moon-lit, or just stars)
No Light = Can't see
No Light + light source = double the range the character can see

Torch: 20ft normal light radius, then 20ft dim light radius
Torch + Lowlight vision = 40ft normal light radius, 40ft dim light radius

[FamiliarMask]

DeathlessOne wrote:

I'm not seeing the problem. Is it just an issue with the way it was written or the location?

** spoiler omitted **

Well, I didn't really bring it up as a problem, but to inform people of a benefit of low-light vision that many players seem to be unaware of.

Really though, I do think it's a problem that not all descriptions of the effects of low-light vision include the same information, so that depending on where you look, you think it has different benefits.

I realize this is a derail, so I'll leave it at that.

[Mudfoot]

I prefer lanterns to torches. They're safer, for a start. You won't set your clothes or the roof on fire, and you won't smell (as much) like a burning abattoir. You can also shutter a lantern on one or more sides, allowing you to hold it in front of your face without blinding yourself.

Obviously, at any decent level > 3 there is magic, alchemy and so on.

torches outdoors
torches indoors
alternatives

[Artofregicide]

Camaraderie. One is never alone with a torch.

[Echo Vining]

Light can't set anybody on fire.

[Senko]

Personally I carry some torches as a nice fire source you can use in all sorts of melee range situations such as setting giant spider webs on fire for instance. Lanterns are a better light source but so are other non-flameable options. However I've had too many encounters where actual physical fire makes a difference light doesn't to not carry a few torches unless I'm a low strength character without a bag of holding or similar.

That said if you are spending gold on lanterns there are a lot of nice options personally I recommened the waterproof bulls eye lantern or a miners lantern (17 and 15 GP respectively). The former is resistant to wind and can be used underwater, the later doens't have the wind/water protection and a shorter range but can be strapped to your helmet leaving hands free. On the other end of the scale I still ponder the candle lantern as a choice as its almost identical to a waterproof lantern in price but less effective although it can keep your hands warm.

EDIT
I admit I don't actually see a benefit to the waterproof as I've never even heard of how winds affect lanterns, I assume there are rules somewhere but I couldn't find them in light or weather or lanterns. 5 rounds underwater is rarely going to make a difference. However for a few extra gold you may as well get the waterproof version if you can afford it. For a similar reason get the 3 GP masterwork oil that moves all light up a step or the 2 sp whale oil (vs normal oil for 1 sp) which burns for 10 hours rather than 6 but is otherwise identical.

[Matthew Downie]

Mudfoot wrote:

I prefer lanterns to torches. They're safer, for a start. You won't set your clothes or the roof on fire, and you won't smell (as much) like a burning abattoir. You can also shutter a lantern on one or more sides, allowing you to hold it in front of your face without blinding yourself.

You're forgetting the main advantage of a flaming torch: atmosphere. When you're carrying a flickering torch, it makes dungeons that much spookier. Spookiness makes PCs more cautious and less likely to make stupid mistakes.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Torches as mundane sources of setting things on fire: I STILL don't understand.

Under the Web monster ability, it states you are Entangled, a condition which limits your move distance/speed, your attacks and your Dex, causes a Concentration check if spells are cast, but doesn't stop you from taking a Move action. This means you can draw and throw, in your own square where the web is, a flask of alchemist's fire.

If you're IN webs when they burn, you'll take the damage, so if you were CAUGHT in a web, using a torch or a flask means you're taking damage regardless. However if you just have to set some webs on fire, not under threat by any sort of foe... just take a full round action with flint and tinder, and a flask of lamp oil, or a Standard from a tindertwig.

Setting a PC on fire, per the Environment rules, means the PC must be exposed to a bonfire (large, standing section of fire, likely enough to endanger an entire 5' square), flaming oil (which, under equipment is specifically called out as a substance that lights things on fire) or "non-instantaneous" fire damage spells.

A torch says nothing about lighting someone/thing on fire with a successful hit, unlike flammable oils. A hit with a torch, requiring a melee attack with a -4 penalty unless one is skilled with Improvised weapons, deals 1d3 Bludgeoning and 1 Fire. Now, if the SUBJECT of the attack says that it instantly bursts into flame when exposed to a single point of fire damage, such as thin paper or oily rags, then it ignites. Otherwise some GM's, myself included, may require holding the torch for a Full Round action to light something on fire.

Since I doubt an enemy is going to just stand around for a Full Round action to be set on fire, I'm going out on a limb and saying a torch is a poor method for this. If, however, folks are OFTEN getting ambushed by extremely flammable foes or objects, a torch is a good way to go. If they are objects, however, then likely JUST as good a way to go is lamp oil and either flint and tinder or a tindertwig.

Also, and I'm just throwing this out there, prepping oil with a wick, while only 50% effective, will ignite something if on fire and thrown at someone/thing. Y'know one way to light said wick, besides flint and tinder, a tindertwig or, yes, a torch?

A lantern.

If you can 5' step, you can throw oil. The only time I can see absolutely NEEDING a torch as an ignition source it would be: 1. you don't have a lot of money, 2. you're in a low-magic situation, or a situation where the spellcaster(s) of the group didn't take the right spell(s), 3. you were Surprised by an attack by an object, such as a web; 4. the object that surprised you is highly flammable. If all of these conditions converged, I would think that a torch is the best solution. Otherwise, there's lamp oil, alchemist's fire, lanterns, lamps, flint and tinder, tindertwigs, or even a lit candle that might be just as helpful.

[Senko]

Not when your in the web when you see it before you walk into it.

[yukongil]

the torch is going to often be already lit and in hand (otherwise it's just a stick), so while webbed, it's already at hand and ready to go.

Also, you'd make someone take a full round action to set something on fire with a torch (I don't necessarily disagree) but you'd let someone catch something on fire with a flint and tinder? Like after several minutes after the tinder finally catches and then they add smaller sticks and then finally something big enough to provide fuel for a big enough flame to do anything with?

Catching anything on fire other than dry tinder with the spark created by flint and steel that isn't already soaked in gasoline is pretty next to impossible.

[Rysky]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

However if you just have to set some webs on fire, not under threat by any sort of foe... just take a full round action with flint and tinder, and a flask of lamp oil, or a Standard from a tindertwig.

It takes just as much effort to buy and use those as it does a torch.

[Mudfoot]

The flame from a torch is several inches high by a couple of inches across and doesn't go out when you move it quickly to try to light things with it. These things are not true of matches, candles, oil lamps and so on. And the candle or oil lamp inside a lantern is, y'know, inside it. It takes a little while to get it out.

[Lathiira]

Don't underestimate the usefulness of a torch as an improvised weapon, nor as a way to deter animal encounters at lower levels. Let alone the aforementioned incendiary properties all pyromaniac adventurers (and goblins) enjoy.

[Artofregicide]

You can also use torches as emergency rations, in a pinch.

[glass]

I suspect the main reason people buy them is that they come as standard as part of most or all of the various kits.

Yqatuba wrote:

Matthew Downie wrote:

They might not have a caster.

Has anyone here actually had a party with no casters whatsoever (not even 4/9 casters)?

4/9 caster do not get cantrips usually, so are not relevant to whether Light or Dancing Lights obviate the need for torches.

_
glass.

[Hugo Rune]

A torch can be thrown or dropped without being extinguished, which can have tactical implications, such as:
Dropping down a well to see how deep it is and what is at the bottom.
Illuminating a killzone whilst the party stays hidden by darkness.
Throwing onto an area with one or more previously poured flask(s) of oil.

[Coidzor]

Flare for the dramatic. When you're burning someone at the stake, do you really want to just mumble some arcane gibberish and light it with absolutely zero showmanship? Do you want to have your minion fumbling around with a flint and steel or lighting the tinder on fire with matches? No! You have them standing by with torches already lit and ready to go.

Admittedly, most adventuring parties tend not to go too in on the burning people at the stake as a form of entertainment and reinforcing political power, only really doing it a few times over the course of their career.

Also, you can tie it to the end of a polearm or 10-ft pole to be able to light a fuse from a lot farther away, for when you really want a head start on getting a running start to flee from your lit fuses.

They're also imminently expendable, so you don't feel too bad about losing them when dropping them down wells or when one of the prisoners you rescued and had holding a torch gets devoured whole by some horrid gribbly.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Lathiira wrote:

Don't underestimate the usefulness of a torch as an improvised weapon, nor as a way to deter animal encounters at lower levels. Let alone the aforementioned incendiary properties all pyromaniac adventurers (and goblins) enjoy.

A torch as a bribe for a goblin: now that IS a good use!

As a deterrent for animals: yes, but then so are loud noises, the Handle Animal skill, certain smells, or even magic. If your party arcane caster has access to a Prestidigitation cantrip, the case could be made that they can deter a wild animal.

[Mark Hoover 330]

I mean, obviously there's some fun or funny reasons to have a torch. Aside from those, I think the utility of this item comes down to one thing: money.

A torch costs 1 CP. 10 of these equals 1 flask of lamp oil, meaning 10 hours of light to every 6 provided by a lamp or lantern.

As for niche, corner cases

1. dropping something down a well to test depth: torch, again, is the cheapest, however a lantern on a rope would work as well, you could drop a flaming flask of oil, cast a Light spell, drop a Sunrod or Moonrod, or simply lower an adventurer with Darkvision. You could also drop a stone just to listen for water at the bottom or send a Familiar/Animal Companion/Summoned monster down the well if it is a "lighter" world your GM is running

Having an open source of flame: torches are, of course, the winner in this dept - cheap and obviously ready source. A candle lamp costs 5 GP and presumably has a glass aperture that opens large enough to insert the candle, so likely a large enough opening to dangle a wick through. Thus, with a tiny amount of prep ahead of time, you could purchase flasks of lamp oil, fit those with wicks, light them from the candle lamp and then use those either as splash weapons or pouring flaming oil into a square to have it burn for 2 rounds in that square. There's also the ignite cantrip, a flask of Alchemist's Fire, using a tindertwig to ignite a pool of oil in a square, or summoning an elemental type creature

Also, please note - high wind extinguishes torches. Some folks have poo-pooed other mundane sources as not dependable in weather but torches may also suffer from this situation. Apparently sudden drafts are a potential hazard IRL in underground areas close to the surface. In this instance, it would be better to have a lantern or a candle lamp than a torch.

Last, but certainly not least, using the core crafting rules, someone can technically use Craft: Alchemy untrained. You will need access to alchemy tools. Crafting 30 flasks of oil (3 GP worth of goods) requires a DC 12 check and the expenditure of 1 GP; an Int 14 or higher PC with access to alchemical tools can have 30 flasks of oil for 1 GP with about 2 days' downtime.

Once again, I concede that torches ARE cheaper and would also be cheaper to craft, but if cost IS a concern then 1 GP for 30 1d4 Fire damage splash weapons is a decent savings. Just make sure that whoever has a 14 or better Int in the party has 2 days downtime and knows someone with alchemical tools.

[Java Man]

Where is the DC and appropriate skill for making oil flasks listed?

[Mark Hoover 330]

Well it isn't explicitly listed. Instead, Oil, lamp is listed under alchemical oils on the SRD and the DC to construct a Simple Thrown weapon is listed as DC 12, even though it is indicated as DC 12 Craft: Weapon. I guess I just figured that it's easier to prep up a flask of lamp oil with a wick using Craft: Alchemy than it is to craft a flask of Acid (DC 15 Craft: Alchemy), but you can adjudicate things differently in your own game.