A friend of mine asked me for some advice about the Rise of the Runelords campaign he is running where the party have gone... a bit chaotic evil.
Nearing the end of the first book the party have caused issues in Sandpoint, to the point where they were conspiring to and assaulting town members over various arguments. They were given an ultimatum by the Sheriff that if they continued with their actions they'd be de-deputized and removed from the case they were being paid to help with. They continued, and at the end of the last session the Sheriff followed through with his threats, and now the party is planning to attack and pillage Sandpoint.
At this point in the story they should be eradicating a goblin tribe nearby and moving towards Magnimar. My friend is at a loss for what to do, because despite his best efforts to build extra encounters and rp scenarios to allow the party to make amends with Sandpoint, they've dug in their heels and ignored all of these options. I've already suggested that they sit down out of character as a group and talk about why they hate sandpoint and if Rise of the Runelords is the right AP for them at the moment. Failing that, how should the GM handle going forward?
My first thought was that he dangle some powerful MacGuffin that would help them destroy the town, or perhaps dangle cooperation with the nearby goblin tribe in doing so, then have the Sheriff show up with powerful backup from Magnimar who then arrests the team and drags them kicking and screaming to Magnimar, but that feels like a slap on the wrist that won't actually push them in the right direction. It wouldn't be a problem if the defense of Sandpoint weren't literally the entire driving factor of the AP...
nonspoiler question: What do you do when the party revolts against the entire Adventure Path and instead tries to destroy the driving factor of the story?
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Walk away and let it burn.
Seriosuly: if the players aren't going to even try to follow along with the concept of the AP then the GM should pack it in, I wouldn't advise any in game attempt to solve what I see as an out of game problem, that is the players' immature need to be disruptive.
end the campaign, but instead of just closing the book, run the attack on Sandpoint like an Us Vs. Them board game. The game/scenario is over, but maybe they can salvage some enjoyment out of a big mass tactical combat?
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Unless the gm is willing to abandon the written structure and homebrew a lot of stuff, just end it.
Evil wins, the day is not saved. The end.
Let the final boss win, show up, thank them for their willingness to let evil prevail.
At the very end of runelords there's a part in the book about evil winning. Have the DM read that part.
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what if Karzoug wins?
...yet the results should be fundamentally catastrophic in a Lovecraftian sort of way. Karzoug survives this event, but his armies and city do not; the archmage is forced to flee the Kodars and seeks shelter elsewhere, likely in Runeforge. If this occurs, the PCs need all the help they can gather to face the alien monstrosity that is Mhar—and ironically, Karzoug might be their best bet.
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Let them become the new lords of the town. And then their precious town becomes attacked by other would-be conquerors / destroyers. So they have to protect it because it is theirs.
Later on, Magnimar officials could offer them full pardon, official recognition of their status and even greater rewards to deal with the future problems in the AP.
I will re-check the books to see how it can be played this way.
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Another possibility I found on this thread : they become agents of the Wrath Runelord, whose plans will come to naught unless the PCs defeat the plans of her greatest rival : Karzoug.
Why them ? Proximity to the runewell of Wrath might have marked them.
Indeed, from the short description of their misdeeds above, agents of wrath sounds fitting.
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Let them become the new lords of the town. And then their precious town becomes attacked by other would-be conquerors / destroyers. So they have to protect it because it is theirs.
Later on, Magnimar officials could offer them full pardon, official recognition of their status and even greater rewards to deal with the future problems in the AP.
I will re-check the books to see how it can be played this way.
I think this is actually the most elegant solution thusfar, with a runner-up being have them become agents of the runelord of wrath. Both of these seem like good ways to proceed through the campaign with relatively little twist from the original story, unless of course the players simply don't want to play the ap, at which point scrapping it would be for the good of all parties. I thank you for the suggestion, and will send it on to my friend.
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So, second book is based on protecting Sandpoint from even worse threats that prey on the people of the town and investigating why. No great change there.
I do not have the third book, but from what I remember, that is when Magnimar officials would contact the evil PCs with an offer they cannot refuse to deal with Fort Rannick and its vicinity.
The 4th book is extremely similar to the 2nd : protect their good town of Sandpoint (likely now officially theirs) and follow the trail back to the originators of the attack to show them the error of their ways and/or get revenge. At the end of the book, the BBEG has marked them for death, no matter how Evil they could be. They are clearly obstacles on his way back to power.
The 5th book will set the PCs on the way to take the fight to the BBEG, even if they are only motivated by self-preservation, revenge or the quest for even greater power.
The 6th book is the culmination of the PCs conflict with the BBEG, with the same motivations as the 5th one.
How did it get to that point?!?
I haven't read the AP but have played through more than half of it. I don't remember any of the NPCs in Sandpoint being at all likeable, and most of them showing open contempt for the group to the point where I, OoC, said that I was going along with saving the place because it's what's required for the story to move forward and the rest of the group agreed with me. The GM also admitted to playing the NPCs as jerks and that he shouldn't have been, so we just kept going with the story pretending that most of the town was fine and that the GM only highlighted the non-likeable people in town.
Honestly, it sounds like an OoC conversation needs to happen where the GM and the rest of the players discuss if they want to play through the AP or not. My initial impression is that they want to play murder-hobos and not have to deal with consequences.
If that's the case AND they still want to play the campaign, possibly have the town worship them as the players (may) think they should and do what The Raven Black suggested.
Sitting down and talking is already a good idea. The GM tried to make it work - now it's their turn to contribute, by telling what they actually want. It doesn't hurt to guess and to let us guess, but let all of them speak first before offering anything.
Since they responded to an issued ultimatum with open hostility, I guess it clashed with their power fantasies: Likely they deemed themselves superior to both the town inhabitants and the local monsters. Personally I see two options:
1) Throw some vastly superior monsters at them, so they have to rely on the town's support. Make sure they can't simply run.
2) Offer a new and evil campaign, but assure them they won't always have the upper hand.
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Kill the PCs. Raise them as Undead.
If that doesn't work:
Kill the players. Raise them as Undead.
...I also played in Wrath of the Righteous for three books. The first two there are a lot of irritating NPCs we are supposed to save. There is one where a Rogue can't ve healed of her injuries despite a Cure Light Spell it does. One NPC is this merchant who even our Paladin wanted to kill. My old GM cautioned us killing him or leaving him to die was an evil act and in later books was supposedly useful...
I've run the AP, and that's as written for the Rogue lady. Cure Light Wounds may well not fully heal her at 1st level, and it'll definitely not fix a broken leg. AP as written.
The Aristocrat is indeed very annoying, but he's also in a terrible situation. There's more spoilery reasons. It's again as written that he's annoying, as there's a reward for patient PCs.
I'd argue leaving him (to presumably die) would be an evil act, but letting him leave would not be.
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nonspoiler question: What do you do when the party revolts against the entire Adventure Path and instead tries to destroy the driving factor of the story?
1. Is the ref happy with the party’s current direction?
2. Does he have time to write a homebrew campaign?If not, then I think the best thing for the ref to do is to tell the party that he can’t run the AP as written if the party are heading this way, so either they change the way their characters behave (possibly with a retcon for any actual aggression against the NPCs) or end the campaign.
The GM has as much right as the players to enjoy the game, and reffing is a gift to the group, not an obligation.
If players want to play villains AND the GM is willing, there are published APs for that. Skull and Shackles, Hell's Vengeance, Way of the Wicked. Alternatively, a GM can flip the script on an AP created for heroes, although that takes more work. It could be fun, IF everyone was on board with the idea.
However, the GM is not bound to run such an adventure against his or her own inclinations. In fact, in such a case it is a grievous mistake to try. The GM probably won't enjoy it, which means that the players won't enjoy it much either, aside from the immature sort who play evil PCs only to get a rise from others, and they aren't worth coddling. An RPG is a collaboration, a compact, between GM and players, not a war. Were it a war, GMs would win, as they have the power to do almost anything, including killing the PCs. If they GM frivolously or in bad faith, the players can leave. But players who abuse the compact by deliberately playing disruptive PCs are also abusing the bonds of friendship assumed to underlie the gaming group. No GM is required to run an adventure for people who are deliberately attempting to subvert the premise, except perhaps in the unlikely or at least uncommon event of a GM paid for his or her time and effort. If your friend isn't being paid and isn't having fun, why continue with this game? The players aren't keeping up their end of the deal, after all.
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Volunteering is Good : actively protecting innocent people. Now there are many ways to do Good. And most people are Neutral : they would like to do Good but for whatever reason, they do not usually act on this idea.
Now, leaving a person to die, if innocent, why would someone do this?
If for a greater reason, could be Neutral. If simply for convenience, definitely Evil in my book.
Of course, I am talking about the act here. Neutral, or even Good, can do an Evil act sometimes.
No, leaving someone to die is not an evil act. It is a selfish act, but not evil. You have no obligation to save anyone.
Or are you going to say we all are evil because we aren’t currently volunteering at our local firefighter base? Because most of us could be accepted as volunteer firefighters, which means we are actively not saving lives.
See the issue with that logic?
We agree with this sentiment.
Plus how else would we get undead with the fire subtype?
Let them attack the town and win.
Then, monologue that months later Karzoug has achieved his goals and they die in the ensuing onslaught of his forces.
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Consider having a lot of goblins attack the town again when they are in mid-fight with the sheriff. Go HAM and TPK them with thoughtful monsters or a few giants.
They could complain that you are trying to rail road them, but you are just naturally advancing the issue that they haven't taken care of.
Kill off a few and or wipe them and then ask if they want to have new heroes roll into town. Or if they want to play another module.