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Folks should take it down a notch and realize that the question "What do you do with familiars" really depends on how your DM sees them.
I mean, yes. The original question of the thread was "So what do your players do with familiars?", vaguely in the context of home games, and then someone described what they like to do with familiars in their home game, and then you came in and basically said that's against the rules. I don't see why reminding everyone about RAW constantly had to be part of what was shaping up to be an ideas and anecdotes thread, even if you also consistently qualified it by saying that [things people will generally do] make for reasonable houserules — there's always going to be a DM element, and trying to remove it from discussion just results in wacky white-room theory that warps to stop resembling experiences most people will have, and thus becomes a lot less helpful, I feel.
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I defintely don't see that RAW means that - only everything explicitly defined is legal, and nothing that is not explicity defined is allowed.
The rules acknowledge there are gaps, and that you have to apply common sense. Arguing that a monkey familiar with the Manual Dexterity ability can't carry anything is definitely against common sense and against the rules. PFS or home game.
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The rules acknowledge there are gaps, and that you have to apply common sense. Arguing that a monkey familiar with the Manual Dexterity ability can't carry anything is definitely against common sense and against the rules.
Just for the record, I'm not arguing that a familiar can't carry things, just there there is no RAW way to figure out what they can carry as they have no stat modifier. I've even posted what I think would be a reasonable total.
Now HOLD, yeah I think as written they can't do that and don't see that as particularly out of place. If we're bringing common sense into it, manual dexterity can be taken by any familiar so how does common sense explain a turtle holding and moving around with a 10' pole or a ladder? How do they hold a torch in their limbs? Monkey has nothing to do with it as the familiar ability works the same with each and every familiar from slug, to snake to monkey. Seems closer to 'common sense' they are more likely to push/pull/drag items around than hold them the same way a humanoid would.
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If we're bringing common sense into it, manual dexterity can be taken by any familiar so how does common sense explain a turtle holding and moving around with a 10' pole or a ladder? How do they hold a torch in their limbs? Monkey has nothing to do with it as the familiar ability works the same with each and every familiar from slug, to snake to monkey. Seems closer to 'common sense' they are more likely to push/pull/drag items around than hold them the same way a humanoid would.
I just see this as a special effect that you need to sort out with the player. Perhaps they have a pouch fitted?
I ran into a similar situation yesterday with a player. He wanted to use Foil Senses. I said huh? You already know the monster is detecting your mind? How can you hide that? He replied that we was deliberated calming his thoughts and blanking his mind. I said cool, and we moved on.
If he hadn't been able to justify it some how I would have said no, but he did so its fine.
Clearly a toad is going to have problems with a a ten foot pole. But there are plenty of other little things that they could carry and do. Perhaps the toad is using his mouth as a pouch like the ratfolk ancestry, or maybe your leshy familiar had a gourd head. Each will have their own specific issues.
If we're bringing common sense into it, manual dexterity can be taken by any familiar so how does common sense explain a turtle holding and moving around with a 10' pole or a ladder? How do they hold a torch in their limbs? Monkey has nothing to do with it as the familiar ability works the same with each and every familiar from slug, to snake to monkey. Seems closer to 'common sense' they are more likely to push/pull/drag items around than hold them the same way a humanoid would.I just see this as a special effect that you need to sort out with the player. Perhaps they have a pouch fitted?
I ran into a similar situation yesterday with a player. He wanted to use Foil Senses. I said huh? You already know the monster is detecting your mind? How can you hide that? He replied that we was deliberated calming his thoughts and blanking his mind. I said cool, and we moved on.
If he hadn't been able to justify it some how I would have said no, but he did so its fine.
Clearly a toad is going to have problems with a a ten foot pole. But there are plenty of other little things that they could carry and do. Perhaps the toad is using his mouth as a pouch like the ratfolk ancestry, or maybe your leshy familiar had a gourd head. Each will have their own specific issues.
To be fair, Foil Senses isn't something that's "used," as it's not a special activity, but rather a feat that alters an already existing activity to encompass numerous senses that the original activity doesn't cover.
While I do agree realistically that, in certain cases, Foil Senses shouldn't work, such as you described, the rules don't care to parse that kind of information, meaning per RAW, a character with Foil Senses will always know how to avoid detection, even against senses they don't know a creature has.
I just see this as a special effect that you need to sort out with the player. Perhaps they have a pouch fitted?
Sure thing, but it's in RAW limbo. The thing for me is that I see a LOT of different DM's so anything that hinges of 'common sense' is going to vary wildly and RAW isn't any help.
Clearly a toad is going to have problems with a a ten foot pole. But there are plenty of other little things that they could carry and do.
A toad doesn't though: the ability specifies LIMBS so you have to figure out what that can carry with the limbs they are also moving on as the ability doesn't make it anthropomorphic in it's stance. Take a dog for instance: it can pick up and carry things in it's mouth but that has nothing to do with manual dexterity [limited to hands] and the it isn't the same as holding/wielding that a PC does.
Basically though, anything that is based on DM fiat isn't really part of what we're talking about as that is table specific and that for me isn't a set thing. All I can be sure of [if there are no houserules] is that I have no idea what they can carry and that they can, with manual dexterity only, use their limbs as hands only when using a manipulation action.
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We got good use out of our wizard's familiar during Age of Ashes.
I think we were 10th or 11th level, and we were sneaking through a pretty large location with many connected chambers inhabited by enemies, ambushing them room by room. (We'd already scouted the place using Prying Eye, so we knew which locations were the greatest risk.)
Our wizard would place 4th level Silence spell on her hummingbird familiar, and have it fly to the opposite exit of the chamber to prevent sound warning the areas ahead of us.
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My latest PFS character has a rat Familiar with Speech, Skilled(Intimidation), Darkvision and Share Senses. I use it a lot and it has been a pretty central feature of my Oracle.
Speech + Intimidation gives double Demoralize for one action. It has scared the hell out of a few monsters. It has even coerced an enemy into speaking when everyone else in the party failed their Intimidation check.
And Speech + Darkvision + Share Senses make a great scout out of it. You can give it detailed orders about what it has to do thanks to Speech and follow its progression with Share Senses. It has detected a few enemies, allowing us to Recall Knowledge before combat thanks to its information. And once it even slipped through a slightly ajar door just to realize it was trapped on the other side.
Overall, one of the best uses of an Ancestry + level 2 class feat I could find.
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In a game I'm playing in, I use a familiar with my alchemist to hand me my stuff with independent and valet. It basically gives me an extra action, since almost every turn, I'm pulling out an item and using it. After boosting it with the basic witchcraft feat to get improved familiar, it also gives me an extra cantrip and reagent. I personally like to keep it on my person since it's really important to my combat abilities.
In the same game, I also have a teammate who's a ratfolk investigator that uses her rat familiar (with the partner in crime and speech abilities) to help her get into places she ought not be to collect evidence,or as an inconspicuous spy. Same group also has a witch that has her familiar do the scout tactic constantly out of combat to forewarn us of danger.
Familiars are pretty dang fun to have and just really useful
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My familiar is bottled kombucha.
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But when I pass the bottle around to share it's nourishment, people are usually pretty grossed out...
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Valet has additional language of what happens when it only has 1 action available instead of 2, which only happens with Indipendant giving said 1 action to the familiar.
Saying that "valet" only triggers on Command is exactly the same as saying that every single ability of the familiar only happens on "Command" since that's the general rule. Indipendent changes said rule that's the whole point of it.
The language of Valet has no interaction with Independent
You can command your familiar to deliver you items more efficiently. Your familiar doesn't use its 2 actions immediately upon your command. Instead, up to twice before the end of your turn, you can have your familiar Interact to retrieve an item of light or negligible Bulk you are wearing and place it into one of your free hands. The familiar can't use this ability to retrieve stowed items. If the familiar has a different number of actions, it can retrieve one item for each action it has when commanded this way.
If you are referring to the bit I've placed in italics, it doesn't support what you are saying at all. What if your familiar is slowed? What if some future ability gives it more than just two actions a turns? All that last line does it say how the ability works if your famailar has an atypical number of actions, it doesn't interact or imply interaction with another ability beyond that.
In an encounter, if you don't Command your familiar, it still gains 1 action each round. Typically, you still decide how it spends that action, but, the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action.
Commanding your familiar is literally the thing you can't do. The number of actions is irrelevant.
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I agree with Shoudb on this one, otherwise Independent doesn't work at all as "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm.". Independent doesn't contradict this sentence so the action you gain should only be used for defense or escape, which is preposterous.
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On my Alchemist, on the other hand, my Familiar is extremely important. Depending on the party I end in, I can go for Extra Reagent + Poison Reservoir to poison my weapon or an ally's one for one action. Or Extra Reagent + Manual Dexterity for a one action Stride + Elixir of Life. Sometimes I go for Extra Reagent + Valet if I want to go full Bombs. Or even Manual Dexterity + Poison Reservoir, hand it to our main frontliner and get a 1 action Elixir + poisoned weapon.
How did you get a homunculus familiar? Poison reservoir requires a homunculus, and I haven't been able to find the rules for making a homunculus familiar despite trying to - archives of nethys suggests that the only "special" familiars are Aeon Wyrd, Calligraphy Wyrm, Dweomercat cub, Faerie Dragon, Imp, Poppet, and spellslime.
It's a shame because the poison reservoir seems pretty interesting, but there doesn't currently seem to be any support for anything that could take it, except for an NPC maybe (or House Rule from GM, but I'm playing society so that's not an option)
which is preposterous.Independent still gives it an action which it can use, that action just doesn't work with Valet.
The two abilities aren't connected in anyway and both function without each other.
Your reading is: Independent gives an action that the Familiar can use on anything that doesn't ask for the familiar to be commanded. Right?
And this sentence "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." says that the only actions the Familiar can use then are defensive actions. So, Independent becomes useless with your reading.Shroudb's reading is that "command" is used throughout the Familiar rules as a Familiar can't normally act without being commanded. Independent gives actions the Familiar can use "as if commanded" because a Familiar can't use actions without being commanded (outside defensive ones). As such, it can use Valet.
His reading is reinforced by the fact that Valet specifies the case of different number of actions which only happens if the Familiar is Stunned or Independent, considering that Stunned Familiars nearly never happens it seems intended to handle the Independent + Valet interaction.
On my Alchemist, on the other hand, my Familiar is extremely important. Depending on the party I end in, I can go for Extra Reagent + Poison Reservoir to poison my weapon or an ally's one for one action. Or Extra Reagent + Manual Dexterity for a one action Stride + Elixir of Life. Sometimes I go for Extra Reagent + Valet if I want to go full Bombs. Or even Manual Dexterity + Poison Reservoir, hand it to our main frontliner and get a 1 action Elixir + poisoned weapon.How did you get a homunculus familiar? Poison reservoir requires a homunculus, and I haven't been able to find the rules for making a homunculus familiar despite trying to - archives of nethys suggests that the only "special" familiars are Aeon Wyrd, Calligraphy Wyrm, Dweomercat cub, Faerie Dragon, Imp, Poppet, and spellslime.
It's a shame because the poison reservoir seems pretty interesting, but there doesn't currently seem to be any support for anything that could take it, except for an NPC maybe (or House Rule from GM, but I'm playing society so that's not an option)
I've seen most people considering that the Alchemical Familiar is an "Homunculus" Familiar. Otherwise Poison Reservoir would be unusable. But I agree that it is a houserule based on what is perceived as RAI.
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I agree with Shoudb on this one, otherwise Independent doesn't work at all as "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm.". Independent doesn't contradict this sentence so the action you gain should only be used for defense or escape, which is preposterous.
Sounds to me like Independent is the exception, if you actually bothered to read the entire entry.
Typically, you still decide how it spends that action, but, the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action.
In essence, the only reason your familiar wouldn't do what you want is if the GM takes control and says that it wouldn't do that based on XYZ things. Otherwise? You still decide how it spends the action. Pretty simple Specific Trumps General rules to me.
But, they're still correct in that it doesn't interact with Valet in any way, as Valet only has its special conditions when commanded, not when left to its Independent action.
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I agree with Shoudb on this one, otherwise Independent doesn't work at all as "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm.". Independent doesn't contradict this sentence so the action you gain should only be used for defense or escape, which is preposterous.Sounds to me like Independent is the exception, if you actually bothered to read the entire entry.
Typically, you still decide how it spends that action, but, the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action.
Independent doesn't state an exception. It just states that you decide what actions it uses. It doesn't remove any limitations.
Unless you consider that deciding what actions you want the Familiar to take removes the need to command it, as it would be a bit illogical for a Familiar to be unable to use Valet on its own.
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Your reading is: Independent gives an action that the Familiar can use on anything that doesn't ask for the familiar to be commanded. Right?And this sentence "If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." says that the only actions the Familiar can use then are defensive actions. So, Independent becomes useless with your reading.
No. This is a shockingly obtuse take.
Firstly, you've quote a general rule to argue a specific rule doesn't work, when the inverse is true.
Secondly, Independent lets your familiar have an action of its own, you get to guide that action, but it is the famailars action. Commanding a familiar, or any minion, is an action the player takes.
Minions are creatures that directly serve another creature. A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn and can’t use reactions. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands
Familiars have the minion trait, so during an encounter, they gain 2 actions in a round if you spend an action to command them.
You can command your familiar to deliver you items more efficiently. Your familiar doesn't use its 2 actions immediately upon your command.
Valet interacts with the general minion rules, in that it allows you to both break up and use the general actions gained by a familiar when commanded, in a different and more dynamic way. But it still requires that the player spend an action to command the familiar.
If you had something like the Legendary Rider feat, which gave you an additional action only for commanding / you had an ability which let you command as a free action, then yes, it would work as you describe. But, barring either of those, you need to spend an action to command your familiar.
With Independant, your familiar only gains its own action if and only if, you don't spend an action to command it - analogous to the action gained by animal companions from the Impressive Mount feat.
Valet and Independant don't interact because they are mutually exclusive abilities.
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Old_Man_Robot is 100% right on this one: Independent ONLY activates when the character does not use an action to command the familiar while valet ONLY works when the character does use an action to command the familiar. I'm not seeing how this is even slightly confusing... the wording seems quite clear: one gives the familiar the ability to follow orders better while the other gives the familiar the ability to act when you give no orders. They do completely opposite things.
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How did you get a homunculus familiar?
It's just the flavor of how I got it, atm there is no "homunculus" specific familiar. In story, my character made it to assist with lab experiments
As per the independent/valet thing:
Valet does use the verbiage of "when commanded", but my table interprets RAI that independent allows it to valet 1 item, since independent does grant an action, and it's not like it can strike or anything like an animal companion can. It might not be explicitly RAW, but it's also not really violating the spirit, either.
Game balance wise, an independent + valet familiar that can hand you a bomb is just the quick bomber feat that can be killed by enemies, so it's not even really OP, and well in line with how most familiar abilities that help the master are about half a feat, like cantrip connection giving half the benefit of the cantrip expansion feat
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Old_Man_Robot is 100% right on this one: Independent ONLY activates when the character does not use an action to command the familiar while valet ONLY works when the character does use an action to command the familiar. I'm not seeing how this is even slightly confusing... the wording seems quite clear: one gives the familiar the ability to follow orders better while the other gives the familiar the ability to act when you give no orders. They do completely opposite things.
I mean, the wording is clear on Strike that it only works on creatures, but I don't think we'll see many people arguing you can't chop down a door using a hatchet like a fire axe, or use a sword to slice a rope
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I mean, the wording is clear on Strike that it only works on creatures, but I don't think we'll see many people arguing you can't chop down a door using a hatchet like a fire axe, or use a sword to slice a rope
I've seen exactly that, many times over.
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I've seen exactly that, many times over.
Oof. Different strokes for different folks, but idk if I'd enjoy a game that strict on RAW
Valet and Independant don't interact because they are mutually exclusive abilities.
Anyway, ultimately, you can always have your Familiar draw an item and put it in your hand. Because it has Valet it's just one action for it so it can do it with Independent.
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I mean, the wording is clear on Strike that it only works on creatures, but I don't think we'll see many people arguing you can't chop down a door using a hatchet like a fire axe, or use a sword to slice a rope
There are 0% rules for how to do so, to by the rules axes bounce right off objects: this of course sucks for lumberjacks. ;)
So, anyone arguing RAW must argue that weapons are unable to harm objects: now we can get into DM fiat and houserules for doing such, but then we're not talking about the actual rules anymore are we? For this thread it means talking about the cool things your DM lets you do instead of the cool things the rules actually allow you to do with your familiar: it's an important distinction.
What is the point of Valet if you have to use an action to get your familiar to do something that...normally costs you an action?
"Your familiar doesn't use its 2 actions immediately upon your command. Instead, up to twice before the end of your turn, you can have your familiar Interact to retrieve an item of light or negligible Bulk you are wearing and place it into one of your free hands."
What is the point of Valet if you have to use an action to get your familiar to do something that...normally costs you an action?
Because your familiar can retrieve two items for you at the action cost of retrieving one.
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I mean, the wording is clear on Strike that it only works on creatures, but I don't think we'll see many people arguing you can't chop down a door using a hatchet like a fire axe, or use a sword to slice a ropeI've seen exactly that, many times over.
Unless those doors or ropes are animated, they aren't creatures or hazards, meaning they aren't technically valid targets for strikes, and that is RAW. It might not be RAI, but as there are only special abilities which permit targeting items in particular, and the rules have been changed to express such desires, you'll be hard-pressed to come out on top of that.
The same argument applies especially to spell attacks. If you Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt a pond, what happens? Does it freeze over and things inside eventually die from hypothermia? Does everything inside get electrocuted for the same damage? Would both suffer circumstance penalties on their saving throws? Nothing at all, because there are no rules for it?
RAW, the last one is what applies, especially in a case of PFS. Many GMs might rule that entities in the pond die, or suffer some penalty on their save, or increase the actual affected area, etc. But it's not a guarantee, and again, the rulebook does not expressly spell any of this out as being a possibility besides Rule 0. Which is a last-ditch "RAW but not really" answer that helps almost nobody.
Valet and Independant don't interact because they are mutually exclusive abilities.Because it has Valet it's just one action for it so it can do it with Independent.No, you cannot.
Obviously you can.
Your Familiar can retrieve an item and give it to you. Forbidding this action would forbid the use of Valet and be against RAW.The question is how many actions does it take. Considering that Valet takes one action and that it's exactly what your Familiar does it should be one action.
Independent and Valet allow you to draw an item when your Familiar use Independent because forbidding it would be highly illogical.
I am building an investigator with Crossbow. The plan is that he have a familiar with manual dexterity and independent that can reload it for him without action cost.
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Independent and Valet allow you to draw an item when your Familiar use Independent because forbidding it would be highly illogical.
No, none of this is true.
I pointed out to you, as per the rules, why this is not the case and you are just ignoring it with nothing to back your point up.
Houserule it if YOU want, but it is against the rules as they stand.
Independent and Valet allow you to draw an item when your Familiar use Independent because forbidding it would be highly illogical.No, none of this is true.
I pointed out to you, as per the rules, why this is not the case and you are just ignoring it with nothing to back your point up.
Houserule it if YOU want, but it is against the rules as they stand.
You pointed that Valet says you need to command your Familiar. But I don't use Valet so your argument is moot.
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Seems a strange hill to die on.
They are not compatible.
Seems a strange hill to die on.
They are not compatible.
It's a weird rule debate, I agree.
But commanding your familiar is neither a cost nor a requirement for your familiar to be able to hand you an item in one action. So you can just remove it and it works.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Seems a strange hill to die on.
They are not compatible.
It's a weird rule debate, I agree.
But commanding your familiar is neither a cost nor a requirement for your familiar to be able to hand you an item in one action. So you can just remove it and it works.
Without an exception, the familiar would require 2 actions: one to draw the item and then one to hand it to you: only valet does that and it REQUIRES a command. without that they lack the exception to do it in one action which means they are unable to do it by themselves with independent.
Does it make logical sense? Maybe not but IMO a LOT of the game doesn't and we accept that they are the rules. The ONLY way to hand out items in one action is with Valet.
Seems a strange hill to die on.
They are not compatible.
It's a weird rule debate, I agree.
But commanding your familiar is neither a cost nor a requirement for your familiar to be able to hand you an item in one action. So you can just remove it and it works.Without an exception, the familiar would require 2 actions: one to draw the item and then one to hand it to you: only valet does that and it REQUIRES a command. without that they lack the exception to do it in one action which means they are unable to do it by themselves with independent.
Does it make logical sense? Maybe not but IMO a LOT of the game doesn't and we accept that they are the rules. The ONLY way to hand out items in one action is with Valet.
Without an exception the familiar would require 2 actions. But the Familiar has Valet, and as such it can perform the action in one action. By can, I mean has the physical and mental ability to perform the action. So, it can just perform this action, without using Valet. And stating that the Familiar can perform the action when commanded but suddenly loses the ability to perform the action when uncommanded is ridiculous as commanding it is neither a cost nor a prerequisite to perform the action, it's just the way Valet works.
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But the Familiar has Valet, and as such it can perform the action in one action.
ONLY when commanded.
By can, I mean has the physical and mental ability to perform the action.
ONLY when commanded.
So, it can just perform this action, without using Valet.
This DOES NOT FOLLOW. Just because my character can flurry doesn't mean I can make 2 attacks during a sudden charge: you can't use part of an action with another action.
And stating that the Familiar can perform the action when commanded but suddenly loses the ability to perform the action when uncommanded is ridiculous as commanding it is neither a cost nor a prerequisite to perform the action, it's just the way Valet works.
It's being "ridiculous" to you in no way impacts it's legality in the game. It might impact your game if you change it with houserules but it doesn't change the actual rules. "ridiculous" isn't a 'get out of jail free' card for ignoring the actual written words of the abilities.
So, it can just perform this action, without using Valet.This DOES NOT FOLLOW. Just because my character can flurry doesn't mean I can make 2 attacks during a sudden charge: you can't use part of an action with another action.
Yes, your can. It costs 3 actions.
It's being "ridiculous" to you in no way impacts it's legality in the game. It might impact your game if you change it with houserules but it doesn't change the actual rules. "ridiculous" isn't a 'get out of jail free' card for ignoring the actual written words of the abilities.
But I'm not using Valet, so I can ignore the words of Valet. I'm just using the ability my Familiar has to hand me an item in one action (which is made possible by Valet).
Most actions you use in game are not defined strictly by the rules. Most characters can sit and there's no sit action. So you can perform any action you want in game and the GM has to give it a cost and a feasability. The fact that my Familiar has Valet indicates it can hand an item in one action. As such, the GM would need a reason to forbid it, which is hard to find as commanding my Familiar doesn't impact at all its ability to perform the action.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But I'm not using Valet, so I can ignore the words of Valet.
This is where things fall apart as the ONLY time your familiar can draw and hand off in a single action is by using the valet ability. Nothing says they retain the ability when not using it.
Most actions you use in game are not defined strictly by the rules.
But they generally ARE when a specific ability grants them to you: like my flurry example. Valet allows you an exception to the normal action rules in a specific situation much like flurry allow an extra attack in a specific situation. You're basically arguing that flurry allows an extra attack whenever because you learned to make extra attacks 'cuz you aren't using flurry'...
Valet never grants the universal ability to draw and hand items as a single action anymore than flurry grants the universal ability to grants an extra attack when you strike...
To be honest I am entirely unsure about the Independent and Valet combination. When I first thought about it I firmly was in the mutually exclusive camp, however after grinding my gears quite extensively I am not as sure anymore.
Let me share my current line of reasoning:
1) What does a familiar normally do if you do not Command him? Nothing as per the minion rules. If you want your minion to act you need to Command him.
2) What does a familiar do if you do Command him? Any 2 actions that he is able to.
3) What does a familiar do if you do not Command him and he has Independent? Any 1 action that he is able to.
And now the critical questions:
4) Does Valet add to the list of actions that are available to a familiar if Commanded, so for example instead of Commanding your familiar to use the Stride and Strike actions you Command it to use the Valet action(s)?
5) Is the Valet action equal to a Stride or Strike action, i.e. do familiars distinguish in between basic actions and other actions as players do?
So if the answer to 4 is yes and the answer to 5 is no, why isn't Valet an eligible action for Independent?
Note that this is by no means a fullproof line of reasoning, I just thought well, if the familiar can usually do two out of actions 'a', 'b' and 'c', and now gets access to action 'd' via Valet, why can't he use his new action 'd' via Independent, like he could easily use any of the former three?