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It is curious that at this point I have to ask this question.
A player mine enter in a room, senses problems, and say
"Roll a Percepcion Skill"
and I ask.
"What's you search?"
"All"
he said with a single roll on Percepcion he can see secrets doors, listen errant monster, see tramps, see hidden treasure...
Is correct? Because as far as I know, you can only do one thing at a time.
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Perception is used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. There's a list of modifiers, and intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
That's it, thems the rules. Everything else you think is house rules. Since there isn't a lot of rules, everyone uses different house rules and thinks their own house rules are the way it is.
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The player is correct. You don't know what you're looking for before you find it. The player still won't see things without line of sight, or things that are perceived with an unavailable sense like touch, taste, smell etc. There's also no penalty for failure, so if someone wants to spend every turns move action on perception, they'll get a bunch of checks but move very slowly.
Breaking it down into multiple checks will just slow the game down. Three move action after entering the room or something seems a bit excessive, but it's what you'd end up with. Personally, I just have them make the check before they enter the room, compare the DC to perceive things to their check and determine the distance at which they see the thing.
(Player check value - DC)10 = distance in feet at which the object is perceived.
Doing it this way allows me to narrate a bit more freely.
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I give all the points of interest in an area DC’s based on how hard they are to notice. On a general perception roll I give them all the POI’s that they rolled over the DC. If they are checking something specific I lower the DC for that item.
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The problem lies in that Perception covers two different activities. Passively noticing things and actively searching.
If the game was played as a series of combat rounds even out of combat, then the default movement pace would equate to one move action to move and another action spent on perception as the player noticed the environment around them. Playing at this speed would be incredibly boring so certain short cuts are made out of combat to speed the game up. One of these is the social contract between the GM and the players that the GM will tell the players of anything relevant the character would passively notice. The problem with this is that the players will instantly pick up on any comment made by the GM as a warning that something to be wary of is ahead. In previous threads on the topic, some GM's have said that they use take 10 to determine what the character would notice or not. The problem with this solution (in my experience) is that it is impossible for the GM not to metagame as they know ahead of time what the characters will or will not notice and will consciously or subconsciously change their course of action based on the character's skills.
As an example the GM is setting up an ambush, he knows the best perception score is a 15 so a Take 10 would be 25. When he is setting up the ambush he will already know whether the ambush will succeed or fail and will find himself either positioning the enemy so they won't be spotted, or will be deciding to give the PCs an easy victory or will be positioning the enemy in such a way that they can still defend themselves when the ambush is discovered.
Let us now assume that the GM decides not to take 10 and sets up the ambush without foreknowledge of the perception check. Does he ask the players for a perception check in advance or not? If he does then even if they all roll 1's on their perception checks, the players will still know there is something to be wary of and will alter their plans to compensate. Even if the GM rolls in secret behind the screen, the players will still be wary as the GM has suddenly started rolling dice. If the GM does not give the players a chance to roll then the players can call foul.
My solution is an Excel script behind a button that rolls perception on a click. I refer to the laptop throughout the session and so obfuscate my rolling as it looks no different to my other activities.
I also give each item, like a trap or hidden door, a notice or spot DC and a search DC. The notice or spot DC is passive, whilst the search is active and I require the players to describe how they are searching, which I accept is house rule territory.
When I am a player, I consider part of the social contract to role-play my character's point of view depending on the result of the rolls. If I fail my Sense Motive check, then I'll role-play gullibility, even though I know my character is getting fleeced. If I fail a Perception check, I role-play that I have paid attention to details and consider the coast clear hence will go forward not particularly wary, if this means I walk in an ambush, so be it. This behaviour is also true for tactics fighting monsters I know the strengths and weaknesses of but my character not necessarily.
When I am behind the screen and have players that use meta-game knowledge to influence the actions of their characters, I do point it out, asking what made them decide on this course of action and I comment on incoherences. If the players have a hard time not making use of meta-game knowledge, I propose to take this agency away from them by handling Perception on my side of the screen.
When I handle it on my side of the screen, I ask for their Perception modifiers and make a few rolls, double what I think I'd need, for each character at the beginning of the adventure. Then, as the game them, I choose one at random that hasn't been used yet for each character, a good chunk of the time for no reason. Also, rolling a d20 has a characteristic sound, associated with a check, rolling a d8 makes much more inconspicuous, it is just another random roll about what NPCs are doing with their day.
Rolling too many perception rolls is going to bog down the game. But at the same time it really does not make sense that character is going to notice everything in chaotic setting. The way I handle this it to have the character make a single perceptions roll and that spots the detail with the lowest DC. Each additional detail increases the DC by 2. Basically I am applying the unfavorable condition to each extra detail. Anything with a DC of 0 or less is ignored. So how much a character notices is dependent on how well they roll. So if there are 5 details with a DC 10 they need to roll an 18 to spot them all.
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I think there is some expanded rule on perception in Ultimate Intrigue.
If the characters are searching for fine details in a moderately cluttered area I will say how much it takes, generally more than a move action. For thinks like people using stealth, wall/floor traps, and other "large" details a move action is sufficient. I use a single roll for the search, even if it will take several rounds.
As an example, if there is a wall to wall tapestry and a secret door behind it, a perception check when entering the room will not notice it unless the character roll so high that it will notice that some part in the middle of the tapestry is slightly more worn or some similar detail, while, if they search the room I will assume they will look beyond the tapestry and use the base DC for the secret door.
Naturally, that applies if I have designed the room, so that I know that kind of detail. Often they are not available in a printed adventure and I use the printed DC.
A common Perception roll for multiple things might reduce the time a PC needs to scan the area and help the player not to forget anything, but it does not improve their odds. With a single d20 for (let's say) three things you get a 10.5 in average on your roll. With three separate d20s you still get 10.5 in average. The single d20 is more swingy, though.
Maybe it's best to keep most Perception DCs modest. This way search for secrets stays exciting, but the players will usually find the content they are supposed to find and the GM doesn't prepare for the trashbin. And the most important skill in the game loses some importance. With mostly modest DCs, you also have to worry less about detail questions about the skill - they simply matters less.
i know the skill, is how use the player which does not convince me.
He says that as a move action (searching for stimulus) he can find all in a single roll.
I find it too much to leave it for house rule a very used skill.
is ... curious.
Thanks.
The player is correct, although I do believe somewhere it's kind of vaguely established that you can only search a 10 ft x 10ft area as a move action, but the player doesn't need to establish they are looking for any particular thing. They're just saying "I'm looking for stuff in this area" and that's it.
But the character can absolutely get all the things a perception check could, assuming they roll high enough and it's in the 10ft x 10ft area they're searching.
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PERCEPTION AND STEALTH
Since Perception is the skill that determines what a character sees, hears, and senses in the game world, it is no wonder that it’s often considered the most important skill in the game. Stealth and Perception often oppose one another, and the two of them together can be difficult to adjudicate.Active and Automatic Perception: There are two ways Perception checks happen in the game. The first way is automatic and reactive. Certain stimuli automatically call for a Perception check, such as a creature using Stealth (which calls for an opposed Perception check), or the sounds of combat or talking in the distance. The flip side is when a player actively calls for a Perception check because her PC is intentionally searching for something. This always takes at least a move action, but often takes significantly longer.
The Core Rulebook doesn’t specify what area a PC can actively search, but for a given Perception check it should be no larger than a 10-foot-by-10-foot area, and often a smaller space if that area is cluttered. For instance, in an intrigue-based game, it is fairly common to look through a filing cabinet full of files. Though the cabinet itself might fill only a 5-foot-by-5-foot area, the number of files present could cause a search to take a particularly long time.Precise and Imprecise Senses: Since Perception covers all senses, it is important to distinguish which of those senses count as observing a creature that is using Stealth.
Some senses are more precise than others. Imprecise senses allow a creature to pinpoint the location of another creature, but they don’t allow for the use of targeted effects, and attacks against those creatures are subject to miss chances from concealment. A few examples of imprecise senses are hearing, scent, blindsense, and tremorsense. A sense is precise if it allows the creature to use targeted effects on creatures and objects it senses, and to attack enemies without suffering a miss chance from concealment. This includes vision, touch, blindsight, and lifesense. Precise senses allow the creature to pinpoint
an enemy’s location. When a creature uses a precise sense to observe an enemy, that enemy is unable to use Stealth against the observer unless it creates a distraction first, or has a special ability allowing it to do so. Senses other than the listed ones count as precise or imprecise at the GM’s discretion. A creature might have a limited form of a sense that makes it too weak to count as precise, such as a beast with primitive eyes that has difficulty seeing a creature that isn’t moving.Cover and Concealment for Stealth: The reason a character usually needs cover or concealment to use Stealth is tied to the fact that characters can’t use Stealth while being observed. A sneaking character needs to
avoid all of an opponent’s precise senses in order to use Stealth, and for most creatures, that means vision. Effects such as blur and displacement, which leave a clear visual of the character within the perceiving character’s vision, aren’t sufficient to use Stealth, but a shadowy area or a curtain work nicely, for example. The hide in plain sight class ability allows a creature to use Stealth while being observed and thus avoids this whole situation. As the Core Rulebook mentions, a sneaking character can come out of cover or concealment during her turn, as long as she doesn’t end her turn where other characters are directly observing her.States of Awareness: In general, there are four states of awareness that a creature can have with regard to another creature using Stealth.
Unaware: On one end of the spectrum, a sneaking creature can succeed at Stealth well enough that the other creature isn’t even aware that the creature is present. This state allows the sneaking creature to use abilities such as the vigilante’s startling appearance. The Stealth skill description in the Core Rulebook says that perceiving creatures that fail to beat a sneaking character’s Stealth check result are not aware of the sneaking character, but that is different from being totally unaware. This is also true of a creature that has previously been made aware of the creature’s presence or location (see below) but is currently unable to observe the sneaking creature. In those cases, the sneaking creature can’t use abilities such as startling presence.
Aware of Presence: The next state is when the perceiving creature is aware of the sneaking creature’s presence, though not of anything beyond that. This is the state that happens when an invisible creature attacks someone and then successfully uses Stealth so the perceiving creature doesn’t know where the attacker moved, or when a sniper succeeds at her Stealth check to snipe. A perceiving creature that becomes aware of a hidden creature’s presence will still be aware of its presence at least until the danger of the situation continues, if not longer (though memory-altering magic can change this).
Aware of Location: The next state is awareness of location. This happens when a perceiving character uses an imprecise sense, such as hearing or tremorsense, to discover what square a hidden or invisible creature inhabits.
Observing: The final state is when the perceiving character is able to directly observe the sneaking character with a precise sense, such as vision. This is generally the result when the perceiving character rolls higher on its opposed Perception check than the sneaking character’s Stealth result while also having line of sight to the sneaking character and the ability to see through any sort of invisibility or other tricks the sneaking character might be using.
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It is something to take a moment to think about as a GM, and also to speak to your players on what your thoughts are. How do you want to handle perception checks.
The problem comes thus: Let's say you punish your players because they rolled a perception to listen at a door, got a 40, then open it and you spring a trap because they didn't "search for traps." So then the players will start saying, I listen, I search for traps, I search for secret doors, I search for hidden compartments, I search for treasure, I search for... every 10ft. And the game is bogged down in tedium. Realize that this is what you are asking the players to do by not letting them just roll one perception check and using it for whatever is relevant.
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i know the skill, is how use the player which does not convince me.
He says that as a move action (searching for stimulus) he can find all in a single roll.
I find it too much to leave it for house rule a very used skill.
is ... curious.
Thanks.
It is also a perfectly fine practice to generate 10 Perception rolls from each player at the beginning of the game and keep them on a sheet beside you, to be used as needed and scratched out as you go. The only thing players need to show in front of them is their current buffs to Perception that are above and beyond their regular Perception mod. The game is replete with examples of the GM needing to roll various skills in secret. The idea that one Perception check result can be used for different things at once (hidden foe, trap, secret door, special loot hidden in desk's double drawer, etc.) is both flawed and a disservice to the player more often than not. The player still has to declare what he's looking for (I look for hidden foes, I search the door for traps, I look for secret doors, I search the desk carefully) to even unlock the possibility of finding something. I search "all" should be met with "it'll take you half an hour for a quick search, and at least 2 hours if you search all the paper notes and bookshelves full of books". It is important to have the player mention what they are doing. It's not up to the GM to guess intent, and frankly, very important at high levels with PCs have +40 Perception mods. To do otherwise is encourage laziness and bad players joining your table. It is not "fun" to just flip through the adventure and skip to the end because some of the characters are built to beat any DC. One must engage with the environment and make an attempt at interaction before being granted a chance to roll for a skill. If you're in a hurry and must disclose unfound loot to the party and you know they can beat those DCs, it's one thing. But if you're not pressed for time and the game presents a puzzle or fun challenge which involves thought process and some direction from the player, then please unclick your "auto-perception" button and engage with your table to have a conversation.
"I search everything" is just crap. Sorry. Players need to do more. Or dump Perception.
PS: I've never played 5e so I don't know the difference. These are Pathfinder boards.
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The fact is that with a Perception check a PC can use a Move equivalent action to investigate a 10' x 10' area to search for some kind of stimulus, aka, actionable details from the GM.
Actually, the wall of text I cited, clearly state that it is at leasst one action move, but often way more time, while some stimulus doesn't require any action at all.
The smoke you cited, the guy hiding in a dark corner, the noise of running water, and so on are active stimuli that trigger an automatic check.Taking your example a one move action search will get you a "one of the walls is funny, there is a desk with some papers, a glass inkwell and some pens on it, 3 chairs, a tapestry, and a carpet, you don't think there is anyone hidden in the room" reply, regardless of your roll. It is implied that there aren't peculiar noises, smells, shift in temperature that so noticeable that you will perceive them with that result.
If you want to check if the funny wall is a secret door, what is in the desk, if the inkwell is valuable, what is written on the papers you need to commit more time. You don't have x-ray sight (or, if you have the ring, you need to activate it) so to check under the carpet you need to move it, to check in the desk drawers you need to open it, to check the paper's content you need to read them.
Doing all that doesn't require multiple rolls, but require the character to spend some time. The player should state something like "I will search the room" and the GM should say something like: " A cursory search will take 3 rounds, an accurate one a couple of minutes, searching everything will require you to move the desk to check the floor under it and will take 10 minutes. If you check for magic add a couple of rounds." Then the player will state what he chooses to do "I will do a cursory search" or "I do an accurate search" or "I search everything".
With a cursory search, you check the funny wall for secret door and traps, move a corner of the tapestry to look behind it, stash the papers in a bag for later reading, and open the desk drawers. With an accurate search, you skim the paper for obvious clues, check behind all the tapestry, check the desk for secrets compartments, look if the inkwell is in some valuable material, and roll a corner of the carpet to look beneath it. If you search everything you tap the walls to hear if they sound empty, move all the furniture to check under it, and overturn it to better check for secret compartments, read all the papers, and do anything you and your character can think of. Probably you do a lot of noise too.
If you want to blitz a dungeon with your 1 minute/level buff active you at most skim the rooms, if you want to keep haste active you accept the result of the move action, if you are willing to leave the time to react to the dungeon denizen you do an accurate or throughout search.
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"I search everything" is just crap. Sorry. Players need to do more. Or dump Perception.
PS: I've never played 5e so I don't know the difference. These are Pathfinder boards.
So instead of searching everything:
I search the wall. I search the desk. I search the floor. I search the door;
I listen at the wall. I listen at the desk. I listen at the floor. I listen at the door;
I smell the wall. I smell the crap. That is crap; Sorry. Games need to be more fun than that.
I get wanting players to do more. I really do try to encourage my players to listen to the description and call out specific intents, places to look and such, but I don't want to bog the game down in tedious repetitive rolls. So I give reduced DCs if players look in the right place, but I don't make them roll more than once to search an area. Sometimes players want to be very cautious and that is fine. They might roll a perception check standing in the door and looking around the room before entering. I'll give them anything they could see/hear/smell/otherwise sense from that location, using the modifiers listed for distance, doors in the way, etc. They might then make a second perception check after moving in the room to search around, opening cabinets, looking under the couch, etc. That's the most I would ever ask for.
Imo, if a player rolls a 40 perception, then yes they do notice that secret door that is 100ft away, in dim light, while they are in the middle of a fight. (DC20 door, +10 for distance +5 for terrible conditions +5 for distraction)
"I search everything" is just crap. Sorry. Players need to do more. Or dump Perception.
PS: I've never played 5e so I don't know the difference. These are Pathfinder boards.
Making players state every possible stimuli they should look for is crap.
It slows the game to a crawl and isn't fun for anyone, except maybe a GM who's looking for a "gotcha moment".
Honestly I can't see any justification for on this except you want to be able to get your players when they don't tell you absolutely every time that they're searching for traps.
Now, maybe you meant searching a whole room in a single check is crap, and that I can agree with. The rules in fact mention on average a single check will search a 10ft x 10ft area. And if it's especially cluttered it could take more time/additional checks.
There's players posting a Perception check every single post they make for no reasons. Like, literally while chatting with other PCs or buying antitoxin at the market. In face to face, there's people constantly interrupting the GM to roll Perception or say "I cast detect magic". We're talking every 30 seconds or so in dungeons, or even going to the distance of interrupting the GM when he's reading the boxed text. Give it a rest guys. I ask my players to list their bonus on a piece of paper which I keep beside me. If you see something I'll tell you. Or start GMing some games for a change.
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I will offer you a reasonable and easy house rule for perception.
Passive perception: Whatever taking 10 results in for that character is their perception level just existing. They automatically notice anything of a DC underneath their passive perception score.
Active perception: You roll the dice, and actively search a 5foot square as a move action. This is you moving things around, poking and prodding.
Your games will move along much quicker if you set things up like that.
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There's players posting a Perception check every single post they make for no reasons. Like, literally while chatting with other PCs or buying antitoxin at the market. In face to face, there's people constantly interrupting the GM to roll Perception or say "I cast detect magic". We're talking every 30 seconds or so in dungeons, or even going to the distance of interrupting the GM when he's reading the boxed text. Give it a rest guys. I ask my players to list their bonus on a piece of paper which I keep beside me. If you see something I'll tell you. Or start GMing some games for a change.
That's a completely different problem than what we're talking about.
That's just a player being rude.
It's also worth noting that players shouldn't roll unless the GM calls for it. And that in the case of perception, most rolls should be "passive" in that the GM should know there's a thing and should probably have prepared rolls for the players in advance or what I always did was give the players take 10 for any stimuli that they might encounter that they weren't actively searching for.
What the OP was asking about however was if a single perception check could find multiple different things in one go. Essentially it was "Does the player need to roll multiple checks to find the hidden door and the trap that are right next to each other?" and the answer is no. They make one check and that one check will determine if they notice both, one but not the other, or neither.
I will offer you a reasonable and easy house rule for perception.
Passive perception: Whatever taking 10 results in for that character is their perception level just existing. They automatically notice anything of a DC underneath their passive perception score.
Active perception: You roll the dice, and actively search a 5foot square as a move action. This is you moving things around, poking and prodding.
Your games will move along much quicker if you set things up like that.
Yeah passive perception is important to use, and although it isn't clearly outlined in the PF1 rules it should be from a practical standpoint.
Players can only roll perception when they're actively searching for something. The rest of the time they only know when something is there when described by the GM. But if it's hidden the player (not the character) has no idea that there's something to interact with. So how do you determine if the character notices without the player having that metaknowledge if the character would miss it? Passive perception is an answer. You can also write down everyone's perception bonus and roll it yourself.
Personally I always went the passive perception route because less rolling made life easier as a GM.
If you go by the rules as intended, and he makes a perception check to find a hidden person it counts the entire room.
If he's looking for a trap, hidden door, and so on he's supposed to choose a 10 foot area. This isn't in the CRB. It's a relic of 3.5 that didn't make print in the CRB, but it comes up in the Pathfinder Unchained book.
When I saw this I asked a dev about it, and they clarified that was the intent, however the CRB was still never edited.
I'm aware that some of you are going to need proof, and I would also, so I will provide proof.
Disclaimer: I don't think the FAQ makes this into a hard rule, but it does show intent.
Link to the FAQ explaining this
PS: I didn't use the 10 foot search rule in 3.5 or Pathfinder because I felt like it took up too much time.
PS: I didn't use the 10 foot search rule in 3.5 or Pathfinder because I felt like it took up too much time.
Its one of the things that made classic style dungeon crawling the worst.
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Its one of the things that made classic style dungeon crawling the worst.PS: I didn't use the 10 foot search rule in 3.5 or Pathfinder because I felt like it took up too much time.
Only if you roll for each 10'x10' square. Instead, you should use one roll for the whole area the characters are searching, but multiplying the time for the number of 10'x 10' squares, plus modifiers for how cluttered is the area and eventually the movement neede, if it is a large area.
To make an example: the characters want to search the monk's cells of a monastery for clues about a murder. There will be no need for combat, but how fast they do it matter to see if the assasin has a chance to escape.
There are 20 10'x7' cells, a 100'x 10' corridor and the ascetic monks have very few possessions. The four characters split the area in four sections and every one of them check one of the sections.
Every charactere check 5 cells and 30' of corridor, so they spend 8 rounds doing that.
You can roll secretly 4 times, one roll for each character, and apply the result to the 5 cells they search. Or, if only one location has some clue, you can even roll only once (but it is better to have them hear you roll several times).
Or the characters can chose to sweep the area together, using the best perception between them and having the others roll aid another to increase the modifier, but then they will have to spend 30 rounds searching all the rooms.
They use the second appoach and the assasin flee before they are able to find him.
Next time the killing is done in the offices of the local bureocracy, the layout is similar, but instead of monk cells, they have 20 clerk offices full of papers, with several drawers and paraplenalya. Checking an office will take 1 minute (without reading the papers) while the bare corridor can be do at the base speed of one 10' square/round, or efen faster if they decide not to check for secret doors. The search, if done splitting up will take a bit more than 5 minutes, all togheter more than 20 minutes. Or they can try their luck, say they will stop the search as soon as they find something, hoping that there is only one set of clues. Naturally they should give you an indication of the order in which they check the rooms. Again you only need a roll, ot at worst four roll, to cover the whole area. What matters is the time spent, not making each single roll, regardless if there are clues or not.
Its one of the things that made classic style dungeon crawling the worst.PS: I didn't use the 10 foot search rule in 3.5 or Pathfinder because I felt like it took up too much time.
Only if you roll for each 10'x10' square. Instead, you should use one roll for the whole area the characters are searching, but multiplying the time for the number of 10'x 10' squares, plus modifiers for how cluttered is the area and eventually the movement neede, if it is a large area.
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Which is fine, much like "passive perception" but not RAW, so not how GM's new to the game and not involved in the online community will run it.
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Which is fine, much like "passive perception" but not RAW, so not how GM's new to the game and not involved in the online community will run it.Its one of the things that made classic style dungeon crawling the worst.PS: I didn't use the 10 foot search rule in 3.5 or Pathfinder because I felt like it took up too much time.
Only if you roll for each 10'x10' square. Instead, you should use one roll for the whole area the characters are searching, but multiplying the time for the number of 10'x 10' squares, plus modifiers for how cluttered is the area and eventually the movement neede, if it is a large area.
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Rolling the dice only when the success or failure do something instead of rolling them when the roll is meaningless is perfectly RAW.
Which is fine, much like "passive perception" but not RAW, so not how GM's new to the game and not involved in the online community will run it.Its one of the things that made classic style dungeon crawling the worst.PS: I didn't use the 10 foot search rule in 3.5 or Pathfinder because I felt like it took up too much time.
Only if you roll for each 10'x10' square. Instead, you should use one roll for the whole area the characters are searching, but multiplying the time for the number of 10'x 10' squares, plus modifiers for how cluttered is the area and eventually the movement neede, if it is a large area.
.Rolling the dice only when the success or failure do something instead of rolling them when the roll is meaningless is perfectly RAW.
except RAW "make a perception check to notice a trap without declaring you're searching for it" is a rogue talent and they took "make a perception check for going near a secret door" from elves.
So...unless you want to blunder into traps and miss secret doors, you're still rolling to check every 10X10 square.