A familiar system imo. Make Eidolons just ACs with familiar like abilities.I don't see any way to heavily customize eidolons without breaking the game math and creating obviously superior eidolons. At best they could do like Animal companions with a 1 point stat difference here or there, but that's about it. They can't and shouldn't create a nimble versus savage situation where a nimble AC is demonstrably better in nearly every way than a savage AC.
I think the designers are stuck when it comes to customization tweaks. It has to be very tight math or the class will be heavily imbalanced.
How would you separate the obviously superior combat abilities? Familiars are weaker than ACs in combat and easily killed. Would it feel great to you to be able to gain a focus point or use your eidolon as a valet?
Everything has to balance out to the same number of attacks with a +34 to +35 attack roll and roughly 37 points of damage a hit with roughly the same AC or you will create obviously superior combat options forcing anyone wanting an optimal eidolon down a specific path. I don't really want that myself. I want to be able to pick an eidolon and not feel I'm picking an obviously inferior option.
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The familiar system =/= the current familiar options.
Throw us a bunch of customization options from a list of 20-30. We pick 2 or 3. Iy increases by 1 every few levels.
These options can be like on the heritage power scale. Give the Eidolon 1/2 level resistance to energy, a breath attack, cantrip usage, etc.
Those are already available in the feat options. I'd personally prefer customizations not be random, but focused on appropriate options for a given type of eidolon. Not just throw some mishmash together and call it whatever you want.
Druids, witches, clerics, wizards, sorc, etc all get customized spell lists outside of feats. Fighters get legendary attack. Barbarians get the most melee damage in the game.
Legendary attack and high melee damage aren't customisation. A barbarian being given rage isn't customisation, it's the barbarian having a class feature (and yes, I'm aware rage and high damage aren't necessarily synonymous, but they're dang close).
I will grant that choosing spells is indeed customisation. However, summoners also get to do that outside feats. Meanwhile, fighters don't get spells at all. Are you saying fighters deserve their own unique point system they don't need, just to make up for a lack of spells? Plus, if summoners did get an extra customisation progression for eidolons, be it points or feats or what have you, that'd put them two systems above fighter, which I doubt feels very nice for the fighter.
Plus, you get into strange territory, where for some reason the summoner gets to be a caster and a martial without having to spend any of their actual class feats, which means they're apparently really good at multiclassing too?
Also, you can't really compare the general use spell system, that every caster uses, to a brand new, unique point system for eidolons.
We don't get rage powers anymore, we don't get rogue talents anymore, there's no reason we should get a unique evolution progression. If all the other classes have to use class feats, so do summoners and their eidolons, as despite being two beings, they're still one class.
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Rogues get bonus Skill Feat, Barbarians get their Instinct, Sorcerers get their Bloodline, Bards get compositions, Clerics get their Deities and Domains, Witches their Hexes, Swashbucklers get their finishers, Etc. So the whole "classes dont get unique things" is BS.
I never said classes don't get unique things. Everything you listed is a class feature. Y'know what a summoner gets? An eidolon, which is a whole extra creature. Of course classes get unique things, but no class gets a unique point customisation thing, and no class should. The eidolon is a class feature, and should be modified using class feats, just like every class does.
I'm fact, let's use your own example -the barbarian customising their rage - for comparison.
Barbarians pick their instinct (dragon, animal, spirit, etc), and get extra abilities based on that choice as they progress. All the other customisation they get is through class feats.
Summoners pick their eidolon type (dragon, animal, spirit, etc), and get extra abilities based on that choice as they progress. All the other customisation they get is through class feats.
Oh, wow, hey, they're exactly the same, even down to some of the available first level options. If you gave the summoner a point system to upgrade their eidolon, it'd be extra customisation that no class has, and that the game isn't balanced for.
And you can't use familiars as comparison, as familiars have no combat prowess, except maybe delivering spells for you. They are so much weaker than an eidolon that you really can't compare them unless you actively want the eidolon to be as weak as they are. And the familiar ability system is no more similar to the eidolon point system than regular feats are. It's literally just "pick a choice", just like feats.
And yes, I have read the 1e summoner. It was actually one of my favourite classes, and I'd appreciate if you didn't try to imply I don't know what I'm talking about.
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What are you talking about? Every class gets far more customization than the Eidolon. I do not want, as a summoner, to be more customizable than my Eidolon.That's why you dislike it.
Summoner gets customization for either eidolon and the summoner itself, so it is split within the class.
I suggest you to check other classes customization which might seem better, but in the end is worse than the summoner's.
Yes, because eidolon is not the class, summoner is. The eidolon and summoner combined have just as much customisation as every other class, which is as it should be, because they're just one class.
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Summoners get the choice of ~13 eidolon subtypes. That’s more than barbarian instincts or rogue rackets. Plus those eidolons can look like whatever the hell you want as part of that subtype. Summoners have plenty of customization options.
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"Boost, attack, attack" is pretty bland.
If combat for you consists of nothing but standing next to an opponent and attacking, then yeah, that sounds boring.
I never encounter combats like that.
Most encounters involve maneuvering to set up flanking or tactical advantages, using combat maneuvers to set up penalties or deny actions, using my Summoners resources (spells, feats, dedications) to support the party, and then after all that - Striking, with boost if I can fit it in.
Your tactics sound more lacking than the class - theres plenty for an Eidolon to do other than stand in place and make Strikes.
Starting with setting up the rest of your party for success, up to and including taking measures like casting Shield to protect itself.
Thats linear customization. Imagine using that argument for all classes."just pick this pregen!"
That's linear customization. Imagine using that argument for all classes. "Just pick this racket, instinct, patron, etc!"
There, FTFY.
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Yeah, relying on class feats to make combat interesting is a big crutch. The best thing about PF2 is that you don’t need feat investment to do most of the interesting things you can do in combat. If your combats aren’t dynamic, look first to your own tactics, don’t blame your class.
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What are you talking about? PF2 combat is all about action economy or MAP enhancing feats.Tactic only gives you the very basic maneuvers and flanking. Which is boring when something is supposed to be a monster with monster abilities.
Action economy and messing with MAP are secondary to modifier modification and risk management imo.
Caring too much about a second Strike - and MAP - tends to ignore the fact that your first Strike is far more potent than the ones that follow it, and maximizing it by adding modifiers to it is a better (and more reliable) strategy for difficult enemies.
Players tend to pretty handily win the action economy game in 2E, with all the ways they have to sap actions off strong foes (which are important, sure, but you only need 1 a round generally due to a lack of stacking).
Risk management comes in where you need to act in such a way as to moderate incoming damage and conditions to stay in the fight.
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You can stand and fight the hard-hitting, slow-moving construct with Grab, or you can make it waste two actions moving by kiting it by spending just one of your actions.
Everyone has spring attack in this edition. Make use of it!
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Pinning a group of enemies in a small room and hosing them down a few times with my breath weapon was exciting and monsterous, 5 crit fails in the bunch. Draconic frenzy on the one guy in the doorway for some nice hits, making the rest use ranged attacks that could barely get through my stoneskin, great fun. Standing down a hall an enemy was too big to get through and coating the hallway in breath attack was fun as well. Turning huge to prevent an enemy from fleeing down that hallway would have been great, had it worked, hitting them with a parting breath attack sort of made up for it before a party member tossed a fireball through the door to finish them.
Maybe your Just bad at using the tools provided. Will be even better once we get a summoning font and combat attack feats that are likely to be added.
That is not interesting, or exciting, or a monster ability.
So you entirely missed the point.
You don’t need monster abilities to have interesting, dynamic combat. That’s just a crutch you are leaning on.
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You don’t need monster abilities to have interesting, dynamic combat. That’s just a crutch you are leaning on.That is not interesting, or exciting, or a monster ability.
So you entirely missed the point.
You don't need Double Slice to have interesting, dynamic combat. That's just a crutch you are leaning on.
You don't need Rage to have interesting, dynamic combat. That's just a crutch you are leaning on.
You don't need Sneak Attack to have interesting, dynamic combat. That's just a crutch you are leaning on.
You don't need Hunt Prey to have interesting, dynamic combat. That's just a crutch you are leaning on.
... ad nauseam
Monster abilities might not be "needed", but none of the above are "needed" either.
That doesn't mean uniqueness and abilities shouldn't exist. And I don't really think it's a crutch to say the current Eidolon lacks interesting options in combat, as they have less unique actions than most Animal Companions at the moment.