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One of my PC wanna being MYSTIC THEURGE earier, and the requirement is "Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells" .So he being a Wizard 3/Cleric 1, heighten light spell (Cleric) to lv 2, then use Wayang Spellhunter(or Magical Lineage) to lower the spell slot to lv 1. Is it legal?
Wayang Spellhunter，Dragon Empires Primer pg. 14
Category Region
Requirement(s) Minata
You grew up on one of the wayang-populated islands of Minata, and your use of magic while hunting has been a boon to you. Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
Magical Lineage，APG 329
spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.
FAQ shows Heighten spells is the only Metamagic Feat can higher the spell lv.
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
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Just now, another friend said, heighten spell just heighten "effective level of the spell", which doesn't means heighten light is a lv 2 spell.
Heighten Spell, CRB 126
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
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Well, with a very lenient GM it could fly.
Arguments in favor of it:
+ Heightened light has an effective spell level of 2
Arguments against it:
- light is still a cantrip
- "able to cast 2nd-level (...) spells" (plural!) sounds like regular spell progression by class to me
- a FAQ disallowed early access to mystic theurge with a SLA (so I assume Paizo is not eager to see it)
Now you could argue that paying one or two traits (you don't need two if you boost a 1st-level spell), a precious low-level feat and some progression in one of both caster classes is enough to justify unlocking the prestige class 2 levels earlier. It's still capped to 10 levels, anyway, though with early access you can focus more on the class that has more levels already (resulting in wiz 9+10 instead of 7+10).
By the way there is a 3PP base class which combines wizard and cleric from level 1: The theurge. Its power curve seems less flabby than any mystic theurge build...
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By the rules? No I don't think so.
You don't have second level spell slots, so it doesn't matter than you heighten the spell and reduce the level with metamagic modifiers.
Primarily because heighten doesn't do anything if you reduce the level back down.
Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?
Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.
For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)
Effectively, the cost of heighten can't be reduced under any circumstances or it nullifies the effect. You must cast it out of the higher spell slot or it does nothing.
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Arguments in favor of it:+ Heightened light has an effective spell level of 2
Arguments against it:
- light is still a cantrip
- "able to cast 2nd-level (...) spells" (plural!) sounds like regular spell progression by class to me
- a FAQ disallowed early access to mystic theurge with a SLA (so I assume Paizo is not eager to see it)
I agree with the former three. And, er..what is a SLA?
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- "able to cast 2nd-level (...) spells" (plural!) sounds like regular spell progression by class to me
I thought that's reasonable, while the PC got another evidence show otherwise. -_-||
THREAD by design team|
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Heighten Spell
For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
I read this before, but I'm not sure whether "can't ... at no cost" is just apply to combining with other Metamagic Feat or At Any Cases.
Oh, my PL already agree to change his build.
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Heighten Spell
For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
I read this before, but I'm not sure whether "can't ... at no cost" is just apply to combining with other Metamagic Feat or At Any Cases.
Oh, my PL already agree to change his build.
1) To be eligible to enter a prestige class that requires you to cast a specific level of spells you need to have a spell slot of that level, not a prepared spell of that level. To make an example of another trick trying to do that, Imbue with Spell Ability can give you a 2nd level clerical spell, but it doesn't make you eligible for any prestige class that requires clerical spells.
2) A prerequisite should be always available, if it becomes unavailable you lose the prestige class benefits. And you can't fulfill the requirements through what you get from the prestige class.
3) Magical Lineage is one of the reasons why that FAQ was made, and it explicitly says that there is no way to reduce the levels added by Heighten spells. If you have doubt search for the relevant PDT post and read that thread.
N.B.: you get the spell slot even if you lack the stat requirement to cast spells of that level. A third level cleric with wisdom 11 has a 2nd level spell slot but can use it only to memorize 1st level spells.
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To be eligible to enter a prestige class that requires you to cast a specific level of spells you need to have a spell slot of that level, not a prepared spell of that level.
I don't think so. If the rules had meant "spell slots", then the rules would say "spell slot"; but it says "2nd-level spells".
However, afaik, there have been many discussions about it, e.g. the sunrod trick, with the final determination being: legal by RAW, but not by RAI.
A long while ago, while I was not particularly looking to qualify early for Mystic Theurge, the campaign took a turn to having Drows as villains and the Underdark as a recurring adventuring place. I've found Sunrod Tricks then realised Like the Sun did apply to some of the requirements of Mystic Theurge.
- the G.M. then waived the skill ranks pre-requisites, saying the core idea was the spell levels and he knew I'd be taking those skill ranks as I levelled up anyhow -
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I'm interested in the PDT post.By which key words can I find it?
I tried "heighten spell" and just find the FAQ.
PDT comments page. Click on the name of the thread and you will get to the appropriate threads.
PDT posts about Heighten:
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r9w
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
It is here
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qpo
Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?
Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.
For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 +...
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About prestige classes:
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r95
Prestige Class Requirements: If a prestige class requires 5 ranks in a skill and I have 6 ranks in that skill, do I still meet the requirements?
Yes, because skill ranks are inclusive: if you have 6 ranks in a skill, then you have 5 ranks in that skill, and therefore meet the "have 5 ranks in [this] skill" requirement.
In the same way, if you have a BAB of +6, then you have a BAB of +5, and therefore meet the "have BAB +5" requirement.
In the same way, if you have Str 15, then you have Str 13, and therefore meet the "Str 13" feat prerequisite for Power Attack.
However, spellcasting ability is not inclusive: it is possible (mainly through the use of spell-like abilities) to be able to cast 3rd-level spells but not 2nd-level spells. If you can only cast 3rd-level spells, that does not meet the requirement of "able to cast 2nd-level spells."
Likewise, feat prerequisites are not inclusive, as it is possible for a creature to have a feat without meeting that feat's prerequisites. For example, a ranger can select Precise Shot as a ranger bonus feat without having the Point Blank Shot feat; he does not meet the prerequisites for Far Shot (which has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite) because he doesn't actually have the Point Blank Shot feat, even though he has a feat that lists Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite.
The design team does not consider a prerequisite or requirement of "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells" to literally mean "ability to cast at least two or more 1st-level arcane spells."
Being able to cast one spell of that type and level meets the prerequisite or requirement (if the prerequisite or requirement was intended to mean "two or more," it would say that, or use language like "at least two").
BTW, even disregarding the simple fact that you can't lower the level of a heightened spell (you can lower the level added by other metamagics), if you lower the level to 1 you don't have a level 2 spell anymore.
To be eligible to enter a prestige class that requires you to cast a specific level of spells you need to have a spell slot of that level, not a prepared spell of that level.I don't think so. If the rules had meant "spell slots", then the rules would say "spell slot"; but it says "2nd-level spells".
However, afaik, there have been many discussions about it, e.g. the sunrod trick, with the final determination being: legal by RAW, but not by RAI.
Eh...early on in the rules Paizo didn't realize how pedantic their players would be trying to find every way in the rules to get an advantage. And they didn't always write up responses in a way that were well thought out either. Sometimes there was a lot of frustration because the answer they wanted to give was "No it doesn't f&&@ing work" but they had to come up with coherent reasons to satisfy that.
They also inherited a lot of stuff from the 3.5 rules and didn't bother to rewrite most of them, and so problems have persisted between editions
Ultimately, you're argument here is a strong one because being able to cast a second level spell is effectively meaning using second level spell slots. The FAQ on heighten prevents this work around, and the FAQ about SLA abilities prevents the other option. And these exist specifically because people were trying to make these kinds of work arounds happen.
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Diego, Thank you for the literature quoting.
And it's just a technical discussion about rules below, for my PL already change his BD.
3) Magical Lineage is one of the reasons why that FAQ was made, and it explicitly says that there is no way to reduce the levels added by Heighten spells. If you have doubt search for the relevant PDT post and read that thread.
I know many insist Magical Lineage can not reduce the spell level of Hegihten spells. Is there a straight answer in FAQ or PDT post can prove that?
As far as I can see, the first FAQ just talk about how to calculate the concentration DCs and spell level for mague spell recall or pearl of power.The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
The second one talk about (1)spells' level does not automatically heightened, (2) how to calculate the level (for slot) when combining with other Metamagic Feats.
I don't know how they indicate Magical Lineage can not reduce spell level.
Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.
For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).
For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).
Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)
The fireball example in (2) para., it said "above and beyond', in my opinion, it means the increase by Heighten spell and other Metamagic should stack, Quicken +4 lv and Heighten +1 lv needs a 5-lv-higher slot.
Even regardless of irrelevance of the topic (combining with other Metamagic), Heighten spell +2 lv and Magical Lineage -1 lv needs a 1-lv-higher slot. It seems legal to me.
The FAQ stressed "can not... at no cost", while I think a Trait is a cost.
I know in FAQ, Magical Lineage can not "adjust a spell's effective level below the unmodified spell's original level", and this is equal or above the unmodified spell.
So I really confused why many deny Heighten Spell + Magical Lineage and how they prove it.
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"if you lower the level to 1 you don't have a level 2 spell anymore."
em, in (2) of the second spoiler FAQ above (combining with other Metamagic), I agree that heighten spells at on cost is illegal. However, when the cost is paid (Magical Lineage - a trait), maybe the Heighten is still effective, just like other Metamagic combining reducing spell slot. I'm not sure of it.
Btw, we share the same conclusion about Being MYSTIC THEURGE Earier, I think it's obviously a loophole.
As SheepishEidolon said in #2 floor，“Heightened light has an effective spell level of 2” and "(Heighten) light is still a cantrip".
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Eh...early on in the rules Paizo didn't realize how pedantic their players would be trying to find every way in the rules to get an advantage. And they didn't always write up responses in a way that were well thought out either. Sometimes there was a lot of frustration because the answer they wanted to give was "No it doesn't f$&!ing work" but they had to come up with coherent reasons to satisfy that.
They also inherited a lot of stuff from the 3.5 rules and didn't bother to rewrite most of them, and so problems have persisted between editions
True, true, but they also never bothered to errata/faq all of these prerequisites over the years.
Ultimately, you're argument here is a strong one because being able to cast a second level spell is effectively meaning using second level spell slots. The FAQ on heighten prevents this work around, and the FAQ about SLA abilities prevents the other option. And these exist specifically because people were trying to make these kinds of work arounds happen.
Yeah, but some of the known loopholes weren't closed, like the sunrod trick. Djezet (+1 spell level) and the sage sorcerer's Arcane Bolt (max: 12th level spell) might also work on similar rules like "highest spell you can cast".
To be eligible to enter a prestige class that requires you to cast a specific level of spells you need to have a spell slot of that level, not a prepared spell of that level.I don't think so. If the rules had meant "spell slots", then the rules would say "spell slot"; but it says "2nd-level spells".
However, afaik, there have been many discussions about it, e.g. the sunrod trick, with the final determination being: legal by RAW, but not by RAI.
It doesn't say spell slot anywhere that doesn't involve sacrificing a spell slot, but "able to cast X level spells" has assumed spellslots of that level since 3.0 introduced prestige classes.
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The second one talk about (1)spells' level does not automatically heightened, (2) how to calculate the level (for slot) when combining with other Metamagic Feats.
I don't know how they indicate Magical Lineage can not reduce spell level.** spoiler omitted **...
Magical Lineage:
"One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
Heighten Spell:
"A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."
Heighten Spell doesn't add levels to the spell. It sets the spell at the desired base level. That's the rule-based argument against it.
The balance-based argument is this. Supposing that we allowed Magical Lineage to work with Heighten as you're defending. This would mean that all +1 heightens are free, which means that all of your spells cast at +1 spell level.
This results in a trait that is more powerful than all eight Spell Focus feats combined.
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The balance-based argument is this. Supposing that we allowed Magical Lineage to work with Heighten as you're defending. This would mean that all +1 heightens are free, which means that all of your spells cast at +1 spell level.
This results in a trait that is more powerful than all eight Spell Focus feats combined.
It works on 1 spell, ONE! That is not very powerful at all. There's an extremely tiny amount of builds that use this trait, like a Magus with Shocking Grasp or a Heavens Oracle with Color Spray, and that's it. If it really were powerful, then a lot of casters would take it, but they do not.
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The second one talk about (1)spells' level does not automatically heightened, (2) how to calculate the level (for slot) when combining with other Metamagic Feats.
I don't know how they indicate Magical Lineage can not reduce spell level.** spoiler omitted **...
Magical Lineage:
"One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
Heighten Spell:
"A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level."
Heighten Spell doesn't add levels to the spell. It sets the spell at the desired base level. That's the rule-based argument against it.
The balance-based argument is this. Supposing that we allowed Magical Lineage to work with Heighten as you're defending. This would mean that all +1 heightens are free, which means that all of your spells cast at +1 spell level.
This results in a trait that is more powerful than all eight Spell Focus feats combined.
Sandslice argument is spot on and resolves the question. Heighten spell set the spell level, it doesn't add anything.
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Er.. I remember the Heighten Spells FAQ (combining with Metamagic one) use "increase a spell's level".
Not the requirement for Magical Lineage, the requuiremet is "When you apply metamagic feats to this spell that add at least 1 level to the spell".
A normal metamagic text says something like: "An empowered spell uses
up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level."
Heighten says "Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies".
The general rules about metamagis say:
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell,
Again, Heighten is the only one that works differently, as it set the new actual level of the spell.
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Well, I think we touch the boundary of rules.
There are two differences,
(1) Heighten "set" new spell level or "increase" the level.
The discription in Heighten Spell is different from other Metamagic Feat indeed, while in effect, Heighten increase the spell level. So the difference might be due to the variability?
There is no direct and solid evidence to pro or con "SET". It's a grey zone to me.
(2) actual level or just effective level.
em, actually, I don't understand why you say that.
Obviously, effective level is not actual level in normal, such as
The cleric have a druid level (equal to cleric level – 3) for Animal Companion, It doesn't means he has druid levels but just count as when calculate Animal Companion levels. So in my opinion, the Heighten daze has a higher effective spell level when calculate any effect depends on spell lv., while it still a cantrip.
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Oh, about (1) Heighten "set" new spell level or "increase" the level.
The discription in Heighten Spell does use "up to" as other Metamagic Feat. So, I don't think that can be the evidence to ban Heighten + Magical Lineage.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic) CRB 126
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
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this feat under sun-rod trick for light spells. mirror trick for figment. make your spells 1 level higher - your casting spells of 2nd level.
"(mirror)...'Trickster’s Mirror (Spell Focus [illusion]): You can use a mirror worth at least 10 gp as an additional material component for an illusion (figment) spell. The spell is treated as 1 spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs...
...(sunrod)Like the Sun (ability to cast any spell with the light descriptor): You can use a sunrod as an additional material component for any spell that bears the light descriptor. The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes, including the calculation of saving throw DCs and its ability to overcome sources of magical darkness..."
your welcome.
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I read them again.
Well, Heighten Spell "SET" new level, to some extend, sounds reasonalbe.
If we understand it by the "SET" way, Magical Lineage + Heighten Spell is illegal, then what about Wayang Spellhunter + Heighten Spell?
Category Region
Requirement(s) Minata
You grew up on one of the wayang-populated islands of Minata, and your use of magic while hunting has been a boon to you. Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
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The FAQ makes it pretty (in my opinion) that any reduction to level through the use of metamagic traits would reduce the level the spell counted as when using heighten. There's no getting around it IMO. You're not casting a 3rd level spell when you heighten a 0 level spell and then reduce the spell slot spent to a 1st level spell. You're casting a 1st level spell.
One could ask you GM to allow it and ignore the rules, but I don't think any tricky wording gets around what I consider a clear intent via that FAQ I quoted.
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the magical linage ( for burning hands ) and enlarge . at lvl 1 range 50 feet + 5 feet /lvl ?
No
Enlarge Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the range of your spells.
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level.
Burning Hands
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Range 15 ft.
Range 15 ft. is neither a range of close, medium, or long, so you don't modify it.