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Giant Instinct Barbarian PC's were what we were talking about.Giant Barbarians can't become Huge at level one.There are plenty of Large Giants and there where even medium sized giants in PF1 [ogrekin and sewer trolls off hand].
Did you read the comment I replied to? I made an appropriate reply to that comment. I'm not sure what your point is as the comment was on how giant barbarians aren't like giants at 1st because of their size vs the size of giants.
Did you read the comment I replied to? I made an appropriate reply to that comment. I'm not sure what your point is as the comment was on how giant barbarians aren't like giants at 1st because of their size vs the size of giants.Giant Instinct Barbarian PC's were what we were talking about.Giant Barbarians can't become Huge at level one.There are plenty of Large Giants and there where even medium sized giants in PF1 [ogrekin and sewer trolls off hand].
Apologies, my mistake.
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And neither are Huge.
*clap, clap* Yes, you have gotten my point: Giants start at medium so looking for Huge is just silly.
And Giant Instinct doesn't turn you into either a troll or an ogre.
So... Never said they did. Who mentioned changing into a specific type? Just pointing out that Giant size starts at medium so looking for Huge like you did doesn't mean much. It's only be meaningful if they DID change into a specific Giant and that giant was Huge.
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And neither are Huge.*clap, clap* Yes, you have gotten my point: Giants start at medium so looking for Huge is just silly.
And Giant Instinct doesn't turn you into either a troll or an ogre.So... Never said they did. Who mentioned changing into a specific type? Just pointing out that Giant size starts at medium so looking for Huge like you did doesn't mean much. It's only be meaningful if they DID change into a specific Giant and that giant was Huge.
When people say Giant they think Giants, not Medium sized Humanoids like Ogrekin, you're the one that brought it up in this conversation, no one was was talking about those corner cases.
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]When people say Giant they think Giants, not Medium sized Humanoids like Ogrekin
#1 giants are humanoids. #2 giants come in different sizes. #3 you yourself mention not turning into a specific type of giant.
As such, I'm not sure why you are looking for a specific size: you brought that up. I'm just pointing out that huge size doesn't make a Giant, or even Large.
As to not thinking of them, ogres are one the more common types of giants to a 1/2 ogre isn't out of left field and trolls aren't exactly unusual. There are even SMALL trolls that are also giants... So I can see 4 giants under large.
]When people say Giant they think Giants, not Medium sized Humanoids like Ogrekin#1 giants are humanoids. #2 giants come in different sizes. #3 you yourself mention not turning into a specific type of giant.
As such, I'm not sure why you are looking for a specific size: you brought that up. I'm just pointing out that huge size doesn't make a Giant, or even Large.
As to not thinking of them, ogres are one the more common types of giants to a 1/2 ogre isn't out of left field and trolls aren't exactly unusual. There are even SMALL trolls that are also giants... So I can see 4 giants under large.
This is getting a little off track.
I brought up the Giant Instinct as an example of an idealized character concept (that being a Huge warrior) that couldn't be achieved by level 11.
I understand that you can make a giant (read, Large) warrior before that and it would fit the concept of, say, an ogre, just fine.
Much like how if you wanted your dragon eidolon to be a Dragon Turtle, you could have most of the concept by level 6.
But if you wanted your Giant Barbarian to be more Storm than Hill, you're going to need wait a little while for it.
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No that's pretty much you, everyone else when mentioning GIANTS was talking bout being giant.
And so was I: no where is a giant required to be HUGE. Giant is a subclass of Humanoid, not a size category.
I brought up the Giant Instinct as an example of an idealized character concept (that being a Huge warrior) that couldn't be achieved before level 11.
Sure, but Giant isn't tied to Huge: If you are trying to be a specific giant, like Storm that's different from what was said.
I understand that you can make a giant (read, Large) warrior before that and it would fit the concept of, say, an ogre, just fine.
Yep, without saying your concept is a specific kind it's just giant.
Much like how if you wanted your dragon eidolon to be a Dragon Turtle, you could have most of the concept by level 6.
But if you wanted your Giant Barbarian to be more Storm than Hill, you're going to need wait a little while for it.
Sure, no problem there. It's a bit of a different situation with a dragon though: they are a bit more 'uniform' with abilities while giants are a big mixed bag [oni, trolls, cyclops, ettins, ogre...]. I understand what you're going for though.
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Sure, no problem there. It's a bit of a different situation with a dragon though: they are a bit more 'uniform' with abilities while giants are a big mixed bag [oni, trolls, cyclops, ettins, ogre...]. I understand what you're going for though.Much like how if you wanted your dragon eidolon to be a Dragon Turtle, you could have most of the concept by level 6.
But if you wanted your Giant Barbarian to be more Storm than Hill, you're going to need wait a little while for it.
Emphasis mine.
Nowadays, yes. (Thanks, Tolkien /s)
But I will mention that classically, any mythological creature that was big, scaly, and powerful was called a "Dragon"; Ladon, one of the very first creatures to go by that moniker, had no fire breath, no wings, and about 99 more heads than necessary.
Edit: But I digress.
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But I will mention that classically, any mythological creature that was big, scaly, and powerful was called a "Dragon"; Ladon, one of the very first creatures to go by that moniker, had no fire breath, no wings, and about 99 more heads than necessary.
Oh, sure I agree. Even your Tian dragons lack the wings and 100% magically fly. D&D [and pathfinder] has sectioned off most of the weirder things that could traditionally fall under dragon like hydra or basilisk but there are still oddities in there. ;)
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I want other Eidolons to have breath weapons, or charge attacks, or ability to do alignment damage, or the ability to protect the summoner, or fly, or be large, or fast heal, or intimidate, or any of those things.
Mechanically having the subtypes are not customizable enough that allows me to have an Angel eidolon fly and have sudden charge. Or a Dragonoid who doesn't have a breath weapon but can block the damage for the Summoner. Or a beast that has alignment damage and can heal.
The current version is static. You pick a subtype and that is all the abilities you get. Eidolons should be dynamic, being able to pick and choose which abilities you want as you level up.
This is a part of the Aesthetics of the Eidolon. And Eidolon is not just a generic creature with set abilities. Its something that the Summoner picks the abilities of, independent of feats. Summoner feats are for the Summoner and the Eidolon should have its own set of evolutions to match the Aesthetics that Eidolons have in Golarion.
That was part of the aesthetics of the first edition eidolon.
Me? I like the authenticity of the subtypes. I like that, when I tell someone my eidolon is a dragon, it's an actual Dragon. Not some ridiculous mutant Outsider I made look like a dragon, but an ACTUAL Dragon. With the Dragon Trait.Edit: Same with the Angel.
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That was part of the aesthetics of the first edition eidolon.
Me? I like the authenticity of the subtypes. I like that, when I tell someone my eidolon is a dragon, it's an actual Dragon. Not some ridiculous mutant Outsider I made look like a dragon, but an ACTUAL Dragon. With the Dragon Tag.Edit: Same with the Angel.
I'd like some flexibility in those subtypes. Just looking at Angel once: "some instead take the form of smaller angelic servitors like the winged helmet cassisian angel." Sounds cool... How do I make that? Sizes start at medium and only go up so how do I make one? And how does it move before it's flight speed comes in? You can't even do what is advertised in the beginning text.
Or take Beast... What is I want a normal dog and not a riding dog? No dog's smaller than medium. You play in a water AP and your beast can't swim for 4 levels outside your 1 min focus spell. Animal companions for instance allow sharks, alligators, snakes, ect at start so if nothing else it'd be nice to be able to swap out move for swim.
Or maybe a fairy dragon/pseudodragon? Maybe an option for a non-damaging breathe weapon? Or a poison stinger?
Or a phantom of a halfling/gnome... That is medium... Yeah... An elf/dwarf one that now has a speed of 25' instead of their normal speed. And it makes even younger phantoms of normally medium races unavailable as size if locked.
So I'm not even talking about going wild with a point system just some basic options for some flexibility.
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That was the entire draw of the Summoner to make a companion how you wanted. Even Unchained Summoner had that at its core.
PF2 actively ditching it completely is 100% off flavor both in Aesthetics and Mechanics.
Seems like a natural progression for where they were going with Unchained.
Edit: To me anyways. /shrug
That was part of the aesthetics of the first edition eidolon.
Me? I like the authenticity of the subtypes. I like that, when I tell someone my eidolon is a dragon, it's an actual Dragon. Not some ridiculous mutant Outsider I made look like a dragon, but an ACTUAL Dragon. With the Dragon Tag.Edit: Same with the Angel.
I'd like some flexibility in those subtypes. Just looking at Angel once: "some instead take the form of smaller angelic servitors like the winged helmet cassisian angel." Sounds cool... How do I make that? Sizes start at medium and only go up so how do I make one? And how does it move before it's flight speed comes in? You can't even do what is advertised in the beginning text.
Or take Beast... What is I want a normal dog and not a riding dog? No dog's smaller than medium. You play in a water AP and your beast can't swim for 4 levels outside your 1 min focus spell. Animals for instance allow sharks, alligators, snakes, ect at start so if nothing else it'd be nice to be able to swap out move for swim.
Or maybe a fairy dragon/pseudodragon? Maybe an option for a non-damaging breathe weapon? Or a poison stinger?
Or a phantom of a halfling/gnome... That is medium... Yeah... An elf/dwarf one that now has a speed of 25' instead of their normal speed. And it makes even younger phantoms of normally medium races unavailable as size if locked.
So I'm not even talking about going wild with a point system just some basic options for some flexibility.
I would also like some love given to the eidolon's flexibility. I also agree that the point system isn't the way to go about it.
Interestingly, the Amphibious Evolution does talk about an eidolon with a swim speed getting a land speed with it. I think that needs clarification in the final book.Whether it's a subtype that starts with one (none of the pre-viewed types seemed watery) or whether it's just an option to start with one, or what have you.
One of the cool things about the APG is that I can design it however I wanted. I want it to look and act like SHIVA? Done. Etc.I want other Eidolons to have breath weapons, or charge attacks, or ability to do alignment damage, or the ability to protect the summoner, or fly, or be large, or fast heal, or intimidate, or any of those things.
Mechanically having the subtypes are not customizable enough that allows me to have an Angel eidolon fly and have sudden charge. Or a Dragonoid who doesn't have a breath weapon but can block the damage for the Summoner. Or a beast that has alignment damage and can heal.
The current version is static. You pick a subtype and that is all the abilities you get. Eidolons should be dynamic, being able to pick and choose which abilities you want as you level up.
This is a part of the Aesthetics of the Eidolon. And Eidolon is not just a generic creature with set abilities. Its something that the Summoner picks the abilities of, independent of feats. Summoner feats are for the Summoner and the Eidolon should have its own set of evolutions to match the Aesthetics that Eidolons have in Golarion.
That was part of the aesthetics of the first edition eidolon.
Me? I like the authenticity of the subtypes. I like that, when I tell someone my eidolon is a dragon, it's an actual Dragon. Not some ridiculous mutant Outsider I made look like a dragon, but an ACTUAL Dragon. With the Dragon Trait.Edit: Same with the Angel.
Funnily enough, my very first chained summoner by the end of the campaign ended up with an eidolon that was "Basically Shiva"; Biped, huge, flight, six arms, massive strength, totally overpowered. You know, Shiva.
Which is weird because I had originally built him to be a Djinn because I wanted to play a genie caller.
Maybe that's where the disconnect for me lies. With the point system, I didn't like having to choose between making my eidolon more effective (like giving him more arms) or sticking to my vision.
Edit: But with the subtypes, I don't have to choose! I can just pick an Elemental, reflavour it as a genie, and I'll get a suite of abilities that I know are (largely) balanced to the other types.
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Yikes I think this is the most rigid and inflexible I've ever seen this board be, saying you're flying up a wall when that description has no mechanical advantages and uses the full climb rules in every other respect isn't cheating, to a degree that insinuating they'd be trying to cheatand that it would be right to be outraged about it is more than a little insulting, like, I'm insulted on Krispy's behalf, and I just got here .
Like I'd take it a step further personally to explain why you can't fly straight up normally (Your dragon isn't strong enough to have control of it's flight yet so it needs to bounce against the wall to not go horizontal and down as it flies, when it tries to fly normally it just kinda falls all over itself before getting higher than its jump) since the consistency is important to me, but that's not especially meaningful to the core argument that if you really want the flavor of the summon being able to fly a little, we can apply some suspension of disbelief to make it work.
If you were at my table we would just kind of have a tacit agreement that flight is never used to solve problems you don't have the actual mechanical ability to solve, and we would work on an explanation of why if it broke your suspense of disbelief that badly.
Personally, I just took it for granted that in the fiction the dragon can't fly because that takes more magic/skill than the Summoner currently has to make happen. Its practically canon to the rules, since you normally would use boost eidolon / the fly spell to make it happen.
Yikes I think this is the most rigid and inflexible I've ever seen this board be, saying you're flying up a wall when that description has no mechanical advantages and uses the full climb rules in every other respect isn't cheating, to a degree that insinuating they'd be trying to cheatand that it would be right to be outraged about it is more than a little insulting, like, I'm insulted on Krispy's behalf, and I just got here .
Like I'd take it a step further personally to explain why you can't fly straight up normally (Your dragon isn't strong enough to have control of it's flight yet so it needs to bounce against the wall to not go horizontal and down as it flies, when it tries to fly normally it just kinda falls all over itself before getting higher than its jump) since the consistency is important to me, but that's not especially meaningful to the core argument that if you really want the flavor of the summon being able to fly a little, we can apply some suspension of disbelief to make it work.
If you were at my table we would just kind of have a tacit agreement that flight is never used to solve problems you don't have the actual mechanical ability to solve, and we would work on an explanation of why if it broke your suspense of disbelief that badly.
Personally, I just took it for granted that in the fiction the dragon can't fly because that takes more magic/skill than the Summoner currently has to make happen. Its practically canon to the rules, since you normally would use boost eidolon / the fly spell to make it happen.
*groggily* Wait, what? Oh, right flight up walls!
Man, these forums go all over the place.
Edit: Can a thread be necro'd.... inside a living thread?
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The problem is, is that reskinning is strictly against the rules of PFS and a number of us only play PFS.Yikes I think this is the most rigid and inflexible I've ever seen this board be, saying you're flying up a wall when that description has no mechanical advantages and uses the full climb rules in every other respect isn't cheating, to a degree that insinuating they'd be trying to cheatand that it would be right to be outraged about it is more than a little insulting, like, I'm insulted on Krispy's behalf, and I just got here .
Like I'd take it a step further personally to explain why you can't fly straight up normally (Your dragon isn't strong enough to have control of it's flight yet so it needs to bounce against the wall to not go horizontal and down as it flies, when it tries to fly normally it just kinda falls all over itself before getting higher than its jump) since the consistency is important to me, but that's not especially meaningful to the core argument that if you really want the flavor of the summon being able to fly a little, we can apply some suspension of disbelief to make it work.
If you were at my table we would just kind of have a tacit agreement that flight is never used to solve problems you don't have the actual mechanical ability to solve, and we would work on an explanation of why if it broke your suspense of disbelief that badly.
Personally, I just took it for granted that in the fiction the dragon can't fly because that takes more magic/skill than the Summoner currently has to make happen. Its practically canon to the rules, since you normally would use boost eidolon / the fly spell to make it happen.
That is indeed a choice you can make, I also get the sense low level flight would warrant an 'uncommon' tag should it happen, and would also be banned from PFS since low level PFS adventures are very much not designed for flight.
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The problem is, is that reskinning is strictly against the rules of PFS and a number of us only play PFS.
This is a misunderstanding of the rules of PFS.
PFS strictly disallows reskinning that might have mechanical consequences. How you describe your eidolon getting to the top of the cliff is permitted flexibility.
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I say that it's flying and roll a Climb check. Or I don't, if I have a climb speed.
How many mechanical consequences did I change?
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I say that it's flying and roll a Climb check. Or I don't, if I have a climb speed.
How many mechanical consequences did I change?
Can it fly when not near the wall? No? Then you were not flying.
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Correct, it was climbing.
But people are free to flavour it however they want, including flavouring it as flying. You don't have to agree, and nobody is trying to force you to do the same.
It's starting to sound like you just don't want people to have fun in a different way than you do, tbh.
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Correct, it was climbing.
But people are free to flavour it however they want, including flavouring it as flying. You don't have to agree, and nobody is trying to force you to do the same.
It's starting to sound like you just don't want people to have fun in a different way than you do, tbh.
People can do whatever they want. I have repeatedly said so.
My issue is people confusing fluffing (the angel eidolon flaps it's wings in attempt to aid it's climb) with home brew (angel can fly when near a wall and using the climb action) Wich uses a term that already exists and has its own rules and implications that don't work with climbing and if any scenario happens while you are climbing the immersion is destroyed and it also makes no sense that they can only do this when next to a wall.
That's just sloppy home brew to please a player who doesn't want to wait for flight.
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You're the only person here confusing flavour for homebrew. Everyone that has said they'd be cool with it has acknowledged that no rules would be changed, just the description of how the end goal is achieved. That is quite literally flavour, and not homebrew.
And yes, all those issues you brought up are valid concerns. It just so happens that some can ignore those concerns, and others, such as yourself, can't. Nobody is in the wrong here.
I get that you're trying to be sarcastic or facetious or whatever, but I really don't see your point.
If you want to go upwards, and you have a climb speed, then yeah, by all means, place a portable wall and then climb it. If anything, that shows exactly why you don't need a fly speed at super early levels. There's other ways to achieve vertical mobility.
Either you want full mechanical flight, which is way too powerful to have before the playtest summoner already gets it, or you want narrative/the flavour of flight, in which case just reflavour things to suit your needs without changing any rules. You've really just argued against your own point, as far as I can tell.
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From simple ladders to siege towers, you have a wide choice of portable walls that have been used for millennia to counter human's lack of flight.
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Correct, it was climbing.
But people are free to flavour it however they want, including flavouring it as flying. You don't have to agree, and nobody is trying to force you to do the same.
It's starting to sound like you just don't want people to have fun in a different way than you do, tbh.
It was less climbing than Mike the Human Warrior, though, so it's still wrong on both counts.
Or, they don't want people to conflate fluff with existing rules mechanics to create some whole new thing while trying not to, but inadvertently happens anyway.
Angel Eidolon + Tower Shield used as a Wall = Free flight at 1st level. Congrats, the fluff broke the game.
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Angel Eidolon + Tower Shield used as a Wall = Free flight at 1st level. Congrats, the fluff broke the game.
I'm not clear on how using any of the rules for... well, anything... but specifically climbing allow for this to simulate flying, or break the game.
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I'm not clear on how using any of the rules for... well, anything... but specifically climbing allow for this to simulate flying, or break the game.
Angel Eidolon + Tower Shield used as a Wall = Free flight at 1st level. Congrats, the fluff broke the game.
Tower Shield acts as a mobile portable wall that the Eidolon could fly up, down, or side to side as much as they need or want, or until another non-mobile portable surface comes into contact. Meaning they can fly anywhere within range, as the shield moves with them, they only need one hand to hold it, and their wings are enough to "fly" up the wall.
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Tower Shield acts as a mobile portable wall that the Eidolon could fly up, down, or side to side as much as they need or want, or until another non-mobile portable surface comes into contact. Meaning they can fly anywhere within range, as the shield moves with them, they only need one hand to hold it, and their wings are enough to "fly" up the wall.I'm not clear on how using any of the rules for... well, anything... but specifically climbing allow for this to simulate flying, or break the game.
Angel Eidolon + Tower Shield used as a Wall = Free flight at 1st level. Congrats, the fluff broke the game.
No one is saying that climbing = flying, or that any of this is viable at level 1.
Climbing = Climbing for mechanics.
Describing that in any appropriate way doesnt grant any new capabilities to anyone.
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That is such a bad faith argument. That is very clearly not what anybody was intending or advocating for. The only way the fluff could break the game is if you intentionally do so, which everybody on the side of reflavouring has explicitly said wouldn't be the point. You reflavour with the specific intent to not break the game. The fact you though that would be at all a compelling argument in your favour is shockingly laughable.
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Tower Shield acts as a mobile portable wall that the Eidolon could fly up, down, or side to side as much as they need or want, or until another non-mobile portable surface comes into contact. Meaning they can fly anywhere within range, as the shield moves with them, they only need one hand to hold it, and their wings are enough to "fly" up the wall.I'm not clear on how using any of the rules for... well, anything... but specifically climbing allow for this to simulate flying, or break the game.
Angel Eidolon + Tower Shield used as a Wall = Free flight at 1st level. Congrats, the fluff broke the game.
No one is saying that climbing = flying, or that any of this is viable at level 1.
Climbing = Climbing for mechanics.
Describing that in any appropriate way doesnt grant any new capabilities to anyone.
But it does, when you try to make superficial aspects of the character have apparent mechanical applications, like helping you climb, for example, when Mike the Human Fighter doesn't do that and isn't trying to bog the game down for it.
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That is such a bad faith argument. That is very clearly not what anybody was intending or advocating for. The only way the fluff could break the game is if you intentionally do so, which everybody on the side of reflavouring has explicitly said wouldn't be the point. You reflavour with the specific intent to not break the game. The fact you though that would be at all a compelling argument in your favour is shockingly laughable.
It wasn't meant to be a good faith argument, it was made to show the satire behind the bad fluff being similarly used to create shenanigans obviously not intended by the rules, and they are similar in the respect that they can and eventually do lead to unintended consequences. The adhesive argument likewise follows this road because it's very poorly thought out.
The fluff road travels both ways. You want fluff, don't make it suck or make no sense, lest the mockery and shenanigans ensues.
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The fluff road travels both ways. You want fluff, don't make it suck or make no sense, lest the mockery and shenanigans ensues.
An Angel using wings to ascend or descend a wall makes perfect sense regardless of the mechanics used to achieve it.
And for the record, anyone who is an outward proponent of mockery in any scenario isn't welcome at any table I'm running at or playing at. Thats probably related to our inability to find common ground here.
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The fluff road travels both ways. You want fluff, don't make it suck or make no sense, lest the mockery and shenanigans ensues.
An Angel using wings to ascend or descend a wall makes perfect sense regardless of the mechanics used to achieve it.
And for the record, anyone who is an outward proponent of mockery in any scenario isn't welcome at any table I'm running at or playing at. Thats probably related to our inability to find common ground here.
And that's where your wrong.
The wings aren't being used to climb or teleport or anything of that nature because the wings aren't what make it possible, but the characters Athletics Skill or skill feats.
That's why Mike the Human Fighter is a better climber, because he doesn't skirt mechanics with fluff to the point of incredibility.
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Yeah, there are basically no rule differences between flying directly up to climb and using the "normal" climb action. Something something gotta hold your arms in such a way that you can't hold anything if you really, absolutely need to.
Your weird tower shield thing was an insane thing to pull out of your ass and just makes you look silly. Literally nobody in the world would try to cheat the system like that, and certainly in no world would I ever make fun of my fellow players. They're my friends. Are you the kind of person that would insult your friends for suggesting a reflavoring?
If your only contribution to the debate is irrelevant hyperbole, you should not contribute at all.
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That is such a bad faith argument. That is very clearly not what anybody was intending or advocating for. The only way the fluff could break the game is if you intentionally do so, which everybody on the side of reflavouring has explicitly said wouldn't be the point. You reflavour with the specific intent to not break the game. The fact you though that would be at all a compelling argument in your favour is shockingly laughable.It wasn't meant to be a good faith argument, it was made to show the satire behind the bad fluff being similarly used to create shenanigans obviously not intended by the rules, and they are similar in the respect that they can and eventually do lead to unintended consequences. The adhesive argument likewise follows this road because it's very poorly thought out.
The fluff road travels both ways. You want fluff, don't make it suck or make no sense, lest the mockery and shenanigans ensues.
If you have no intention of respecting the people you're discussing this with by arguing in good faith, you have no place in this conversation, and will likely gain a reputation for irrational, disrespectful discourse.
Its also a flawed satire simply because the purpose of re-flavoring is to change the fiction without changing the mechanical consequences.
Any 'shenanigans' you insist must now be possible are brought into the example only by the creation of a masturbatory strawman in which someone agrees to the natural restrictions imposed by a re-flavor (that you can't use it for anything not possible with the game element you're re-flavoring), but then turns around and insists that the altered flavor must retroactively alter the mechanic.
Now I've had that happen, but that player was, as Matt Collville would say "A Wangrod" they wanted a chain sword, so I offered them the ability to reflavor either a whip (for reach) or a longsword (for larger dice, but no reach) they chose the longsword, and then tried to insist they must have reach as well when it came up at the table.
The entire group shut them down immediately because it was so obviously not kosher when I had carefully established what re-flavoring consisted of, for them to try and pull that, that it was abundantly clear they were just trying to pull one over on us. They weren't long for the game after that.
The key of re-flavoring is that is understanding that when you re-flavor, your problem solving ability doesn't change, only the flavor text of how you solve the problem changes.