Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I'm pretty bummed about the regional language change as well... My main PFS character is an emissary from Tian Xia who is dedicated to language and archaeology. High int, good amount of starting languages... that are no longer an option for him.
I'm going to have to completely redo his language selection at this point and probably change the concept of the character in general. Really disappointing.
You don't have a profile for Kaenesuko, but I can tell that he's half-elf (thus human) and a rogue. The emissary background grants multilingual, and rogues get more skill feats than others. Also, humans get access to any languages of their region. Granted, for someone from Tian Xia, that list is currently... Tien. :/
But I'm hoping he can be salvaged long-term, regaining some of his losses.
I really wish that we all didn't have to do this. Language choices may be an afterthought for some players, but for mine they've been story decisions based on my character's travels and history.
Hmm
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I kind of wish that some to the regional languages were more common. (Kelish and Ossiriani) but some, such as Skald, are supposed to be much less common outside of their areas.
But that may be asking too much.
I don't think it's asking too much.
The Pathfinder Agent dedication is Uncommon and has Absalom as Access condition. That makes sense in a home campaign where the PCs aren't necessarily involved with the Society at all. But for PFS that would be ridiculous so all PCs in PFS have Access to it.
Likewise with Wayfinders. If I'm playing Age of Ashes a Wayfinder would indeed be an Uncommon item that I can't just pick up in the shop. But in PFS all characters are supposed to have them.
I think it's the same with regional/ethnic languages. In a normal campaign, you don't have access to a whole lot of languages at character creation, only those justified by your character's ethnic/regional background. Then, when the campaign goes from country to country, you'd gain access to learn new languages.
But in PFS, traveling the world is a key concept of the campaign. So gaining access to more languages is something that makes sense. But the bookkeeping would be a nightmare.
It's not strange that a lot of us thought the table in the previous Guide granting open access to a lot of languages was intentional. Now you've been saying that it was a mistake, as if that should have been obvious. But I don't think it's obvious. I think that open access makes total sense for PFS.
I'm not saying all languages should be accessible right away; I can see Vudrani being limited to characters of specific ethnicities/regions, and likewise for languages like Minkaian. But the main languages of the Inner Sea region, as well as Tien, should probably be more accessible in the PFS campaign than in a home campaign where you never leave one country.
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Some different opinions/thoughts:
1. Regional (human ethnic) languages provide a way to craft your character's background (more important to some than others). Something under our control. We were limited with the Home Region boon, but I understood with archetype access and all (plus you could get World Traveller). This change (especially with the loss of the Multicultural Heritage boon) takes away one of the few tools we have available to define our characters (mixed heritages, expatriation, world travel, studying at large learning institutions--you're telling me the Emerald Boughs of the Magaambya don't teach languages? the Acadamae's enchanters don't teach and learn languages for their language-dependent spells?--studying the language of my enemy, etc). And the restriction feels so pointless.
2. Making ethnic languages Uncommon by default makes little sense. Undercommon, Sylvan, and Jotun are Common. My Eratuki character from Ice Crown can somehow learn the language of the drow easier than my Taldan knight can learn Kelish, which he needs to know to be a spy. Orcish is essentially as distinct of a language in access and availability in-game as Varissian, but Orcish is Common and Varissian is Uncommon. Reclusive fey are apparently holding mass language courses for non-fey, but a Tian adventurer can't find a (modern) Osirisni tutor anywhere.
3. You could at least make the major trade languages Common: Taldane (Common), Kelish, Osiriani, Mwangi, and Tian.
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If it’s clarified that Absalom has access to all modern human languages (and I hope it is), I feel like Pathfinders should just get the equivalent of the World Traveler (Absalom) boon for free, instead of having to specifically call out that they have access everytime something with home region Absalom is added to the game. That would both grant the access that we had previously, and make things simpler going forward. Just like we’re considered to be members of the Pathfinder Society without having to buy Secondary Initiation.
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Pip comes in, waving a new law book. "The society leadership has published a clarification!"
What languages do characters from Absalom have access to?
Characters from Absalom have access to Erutaki, Hallit, Kelish, Mwangi, Osiriani, Shoanti, Skald, Tien, Varki, Varisian, and Vudrani.
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Just an update on this. Someone on the OPO discord noticed that the rule in the guide has changed with regards to starting languages and access to regional languages:
All Pathfinder Society characters are literate and speak Common (Taldan) as well as any other languages granted by their ancestry. All Pathfinder Society characters have access to all common and uncommon modern regional languages (Core Rulebook 432). All Pathfinder Society characters begin with one one additional Regional language.
So unless this is a glitch/mistake, it appears everyone gets one additional (regional) language and has access to all of the regional human languages.
Can anyone confirm this is intended before I go edit all of my characters?
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One more question about this (which can absolutely wait for the blog). It was previously clarified HERE that Mwangi is the common language for all characters from the Mwangi Expanse, and that they then have Common (Taldane) added as an additional language. Does this new rule affect that? Or do those characters get Mwangi, Common (Taldane), and an additional modern regional language?
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Per the new rule, it would appear that: All characters get Common. All characters get their ancestry languages (which may or may not include common, which is why the rules state everybody gets common - just to be safe). And then everybody also gets one regional language. It can be Mwangi if you want your mwangi dwarf to be able to speak their regional language, but it could also be something else.
So it seems that the characters who previously would have gained mwangi for free, now have the option to replace it with some other regional language if they want to - I don't believe these 'additional languages' stack, but rather the intent was to expand the options (and ensure that Tien characters can speak tien if they want to, and vudrani characters can speak vudrani, etc)
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That's entirely possible. It would also change the rule that is in Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse, which is what's referenced in the link.
When playing characters native to the Mwangi Expanse, the GM should replace “Common” as the default language with “Mwangi” instead.
So, currently, without further clarification, the last word from Alex (by way of Jared) was that the rule in the book applies. It was never a rule in the guide. It's a rule in a hardcover book that we have been told we should follow. That means characters from the Mwangi Expanse start with Mwangi as the language that they get from their ancestry, not Common. PFS then gives them Common so that they can function in the campaign. That's how things have been working since that post. PFS now also gives an additional modern regional language. That's the current RAW without further clarification.
I can see either way being intended, though if characters from the Mwangi Expanse don't start with Mwangi, that recreates the problem that the book and previous clarification solved. Namely that a character could be from a location that has Common (Mwangi) and not speak Mwangi, which would be the equivalent to a character being from Taldor and not speaking Common (Taldane).
Characters from the Mwangi Expanse have been getting one more language than other characters for a while now, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that they will continue to get one more language than other characters going forward. It's also not out of the realm of possibility that this change was in part to even things out. It would be great if every GM or VO wasn't having to make a decision about that based on what they think is balanced.
I'm holding off on adding an additional language to my Mwangi characters until there's some kind of official clarification either way. I'm hoping that's already part of the planned blog, but in case it got missed, I wanted to bring it up in hope of it getting answered so there aren't any questions about how it should work.
With regards to Tian-Xia, my suspicion is that when/if a Tian-Xia focused book is released, it will contain similar language to the Mwangi Expanse book granting characters from Tian-Xia Tien as their Common language instead of Taldane, but then the question of the other regional languages within Tian-Xia that existed in 1E comes up. If Tian-Xia got a similar rule, then the rule in the guide would allow someone from Minkai to start with Tien, Common (Taldane), and Minkain (if they choose), even if they had a 10 INT, which in some ways makes sense.
I'm not holding out hope that Vudra will ever get a book dedicated to it, so I don't know if this will come up there. A large portion of the Vudran presence gets placed on Jamelray, so maybe if there's an Impossible Lands book it might come up in that.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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I can see either way being intended, though if characters from the Mwangi Expanse don't start with Mwangi, that recreates the problem that the book and previous clarification solved. Namely that a character could be from a location that has Common (Mwangi) and not speak Mwangi, which would be the equivalent to a character being from Taldor and not speaking Common (Taldane).
What? No, they still start with mwangi if they want to because they get to choose a free regional language, but if they were, say, an ex-cheliaxian colonist who never bothered to learn mwangi, they can instead choose another regional language to learn which fits their background better.
The new text does not recreate the problem - it merely expands the options: Mwangi characters no longer -have to- speak mwangi, just like varisian characters don't -have to- speak varisian - but both can choose to speak their regional language if they so wish. For free.
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I can see either way being intended, though if characters from the Mwangi Expanse don't start with Mwangi, that recreates the problem that the book and previous clarification solved. Namely that a character could be from a location that has Common (Mwangi) and not speak Mwangi, which would be the equivalent to a character being from Taldor and not speaking Common (Taldane).What? No, they still start with mwangi if they want to because they get to choose a free regional language, but if they were, say, an ex-cheliaxian colonist who never bothered to learn mwangi, they can instead choose another regional language to learn which fits their background better.
The new text does not recreate the problem - it merely expands the options: Mwangi characters no longer -have to- speak mwangi, just like varisian characters don't -have to- speak varisian - but both can choose to speak their regional language if they so wish. For free.
You are correct that I should have had the qualifier in that if they don’t start with it automatically, then it would now be a choice, where before it was possible for a character to be unable to take Mwangi. It was late, so I forgot to add that part. The rest of the post still applies, though. Nothing in the guide currently changes the rule in the Mwangi Expanse book. I’m not trying to argue how it should work. I’m asking how it does work now. I’m fine with either answer. But I also see people jumping to things that amount to well of course characters from the Mwangi Expanse don’t get more languages than everybody else, when characters from the Mwangi Expanse have already been getting more languages than everybody else, and it was confirmed at the time that was the intent.
In the case of the Chelaxian, they can just ignore the language on their sheet. They wouldn’t be losing any of their other options. Or they can choose a different Home Region and just say they grew up in the Expanse but have since left. Giving them an extra language doesn’t invalidate their concept.
Ultimately, I just want the rules to be clear, so that there isn’t table variation, because, again, nothing in the new language in the guide addresses or changes the language from the Mwangi Expanse book directly. If we’re supposed to stop using a rule we were told to use, then it would be good to know that.
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I'm still trying to figure out how this all works for a kobold that has grown up in the dwarven-majority culture of the Terwa Uplands which is considered part of the Mwangi Expanse.
Yeah, I think there’s always going to be some limit or some situation that’s outside the rules and feels weird. It would be great if there were a consistent way to account for that. I don’t think PFS will try to solve every issue like this, and the additional language adds a lot of flexibility, but unfortunately won’t help with Dwarven. In the case of Mwangi, though, PFS didn’t create the rule that everyone from the Expanse gets Mwangi.
Related, but not exactly to your point, I wish Adopted Ancestry granted one ancestral language, but that’s not really a PFS thing to change.
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Despite my walls of text, I'm trying to avoid a conversation around why I think that rule was written into the Mwangi Expanse book in the first place. I'm certain there were conversations at Paizo that led to it, but that's not really directly relevant here. So here is my attempt to boil down the question to only the mechanical parts, without further comment on how I think it should work or why:
1. A rule was published in Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse replacing Common (Taldane) with Common (Mwangi) for characters native to the Mwangi Expanse.
2. We were told that PFS uses that rule (but those characters also get Common (Taldane)).
3. The language in the guide was recently updated in a way that could be interpreted as replacing that rule, however the rule from the Mwangi Expanse book is not referenced in the guide.
4. Do we still follow the rule from the Mwangi Expanse book?
The answer to that question doesn't require diving into what could very quickly turn into a loaded conversation as so many other threads have.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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1. Calling it a brand new rule is putting it a bit strongly - it was always understood that Taldane was just the Common of the Inner Sea region, and that you should replace it appropriate (you know, in other parts of Golarion, other planets, your homebrew setting etc..)
2. Yes.
3. Yes, that's a complete overwrite. Notice how the Guide no longer mentions the LO Mwangi book or people from specific regions; it doesn't have to. The character creation rules in the Guide completely say how many languages you get. You don't have to go hunting through multiple books to discover in some corner that some characters might get surprisingly more languages than others.
4. No.
Basically, everyone else got pulled up to the same level as what Mwangi characters got earlier. I mean, it was kinda odd that people from one half of Garund got more languages than characters from the other half. (Under the old rules, people from most of the northern and eastern side of Garund didn't actually even have regional access to the Mwangi language, so it was common only in half the continent at best.)
And by giving everyone access to all the regional languages, we also don't need to do as much work to keep regional access tables up to date / worry about regions that aren't in the table yet.
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1. Calling it a brand new rule is putting it a bit strongly - it was always understood that Taldane was just the Common of the Inner Sea region, and that you should replace it appropriate (you know, in other parts of Golarion, other planets, your homebrew setting etc..)
Edit: On this part, while it may have been understood in general, it is not true that characters from the Mwangi Expanse got Mwangi for free in PFS prior to the rule being published.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, that's a complete overwrite. Notice how the Guide no longer mentions the LO Mwangi book or people from specific regions; it doesn't have to. The character creation rules in the Guide completely say how many languages you get. You don't have to go hunting through multiple books to discover in some corner that some characters might get surprisingly more languages than others.
This is where you lose me, because the guide never mentioned the Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse in the language section. The rule that was replaced read:
All Pathfinder Society characters are literate and speak Common (Taldan) as well as any other languages granted by their ancestry. Regional languages (Core Rulebook 432) are uncommon and require access.
Notice how it has much the same text about all characters getting Common (Taldane) and getting languages granted by their ancestry. The reason that still works is because the rule in the Mwangi Expanse book makes Mwangi one of the languages granted as an ancestry language for those characters. That part of the rule is essentially the same in the new version, so the same logic appears to hold true.
4. No.
Basically, everyone else got pulled up to the same level as what Mwangi characters got earlier. I mean, it was kinda odd that people from one half of Garund got more languages than characters from the other half. (Under the old rules, people from most of the northern and eastern side of Garund didn't actually even have regional access to the Mwangi language, so it was common only in half the continent at best.)
And by giving everyone access to all the regional languages, we also don't need to do as much work to keep regional access tables up to date / worry about regions that aren't in the table yet.
I can see this as a possibility. I just don't see it spelled out in what was added in the guide, because people are assuming that something was removed from the guide that was never there in the first place.
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Per Alex’s message earlier in the thread, yes, that should be correct. Human grants an additional language, and the guide grants a regional language on top of that. So they get Common, a language of their choice that they have access to, and a modern regional language of their choice.
(See the last parts of discussion for potential differences for a character from the Mwangi Expanse, but they would at least get the three languages, and might still get Mwangi as well).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Just to clarify.
Human, 10 Intelligence, Joined Pathfinder Society, No Skill Feats, starts with: 3 languages?
Or, if they had been adventuring since Season One, knowing 2 languages, now they learn a third?
(so long as Access conditions are met, etc)
Yes, with the third language specifically being a regional one;
All Pathfinder Society characters are literate and speak Common (Taldan) as well as any other languages granted by their ancestry. All Pathfinder Society characters have access to all common and uncommon modern regional languages (Core Rulebook 432). All Pathfinder Society characters begin with one one additional Regional language.
There's no "and maybe also Mwangi extra". The rule in the Guide is complete; it's not saying "you get this in addition to" or anything, this is what you get.
Previously there was an exception for areas that had a different common language than Taldane; that's no longer there, but you still get just as much because you can use the regional language for that. Nobody got anything less than they got previously.
Which is good: it's more flexible, it also covers areas that didn't get special treatment. Previously, half of Garund got more languages than the other because... why? If you look at the regional languages, it's almost a perfect split with the west and south having access to Mwangi, and the east and north having access to Osirian. Presumably, Kelish was also the equivalent of Common in Qadira (which is just the part of the Kelish empire that's actually shown on the map). So the whole documentation process of exactly which parts of the world have a separate Common language is super messy. Making it flat by saying everyone gets a regional language is much easier.
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Ascalaphus, please go back and read the multiple times that I have referenced where the Mwangi rule comes from. It is not and never was the guide. It comes from the Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse book. It is still in that book. It makes Mwangi one of your Ancestry languages. You keep saying that an exception was removed from the guide that was never in the guide. The previous rule in the guide was “complete,” never mentioned Mwangi, and still granted Mwangi. That part of the rule has not changed.
Common in Qadira, or Osirion, or the Impossible Lands is Taldane (according to the current rules). Maybe that’s as problematic as having Common in Mwangi be Taldane, and maybe that’s what this rule is trying to address, but we haven’t been told that yet. Hopefully the referenced blog will touch on that.
Mwangi is not the language of all of Garund. It’s granted to natives of the Mwangi Expanse. Someone from Nex is not a native of the Mwangi Expanse.
You’re arguing what you think the rule should be. I’m pointing at a rule that specifically grants Mwangi as an ancestry language, which we have previously been told to follow, which was not referenced directly in the old guide, and which nothing in the new guide tells us to ignore. I’m asking whether or not we should continue to follow that rule, so that there is no confusion around it going forward.
That question has a yes or no answer, and neither of us know that answer, regardless of what we think the rule should be. Unless you’re referencing a discussion that’s taken place elsewhere where Alex or someone else from Paizo has confirmed what you’re saying.
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I would expect the guide to supersede a LO book that not everyone owns, wouldn't you?
A PFS character gets Taldane, the languages granted by their ancestry, intelligence, and feats/class features, and one regional language.
I think it is easier to understand if instead of saying "PFS characters get Taldane" you say "PFS characters must have Taldane". If your character doesn't start with Taldane you must spend one of your bonus languages on acquiring it (either from Int or the PFS bonus regional language).
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I would expect the guide to supersede a LO book that not everyone owns, wouldn't you?
A PFS character gets Taldane, the languages granted by their ancestry, intelligence, and feats/class features, and one regional language.
So, once again, HERE is the link to confirmation that the rule from the book applies.
Alex Spiedel says that the Language section on page 23 of Mwangi Expanse does apply:
When playing characters native to the Mwangi Expanse, the GM should replace “Common” as the default language with “Mwangi” instead.So all characters who select Mwangi as their home region, and whose ancestry grants "Common" gain Mwangi *and* Taldane.
Here is what the guide used to say:
All Pathfinder Society characters are literate and speak Common (Taldan) as well as any other languages granted by their ancestry. Regional languages (Core Rulebook 432) are uncommon and require access.
And the current guide:
All Pathfinder Society characters are literate and speak Common (Taldan) as well as any other languages granted by their ancestry. All Pathfinder Society characters have access to all common and uncommon modern regional languages (Core Rulebook 432). All Pathfinder Society characters begin with one one additional Regional language.
Please point out what language was removed that makes the clarification no longer apply. The first sentence is identical. What was removed was the part saying regional languages are Uncommon.
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I follow what you're saying, but I'm not coming to the same conclusion.
LO:ME is an optional book that not every player will own.
JT's post is a post that was binding if you know where to look.
The person responsible for keeping the living campaign rules document up-to-date is the same person who made that post--JT--and this new rule is more recent than the forum post (EDIT: and Alex confirmed it).
Therefore, the newer rule--housed in the central web location that the PFS guide is--overrides the older forum post. It also makes characters even, as Ascalaphus said earlier. Now every PFS character gets Common (Taldane), the languages granted by INT bonus and feats/features, plus one Regional Language. It's fair and future proofed. Otherwise, nobody comes from Taldor anymore, everyone is Mwangi or Tien just in case you need one of those languages.
However, I concede that I am not campaign leadership, and my interpretation may or may not be correct.
Do you think we need another forum post here, in the other thread, or both from Alex or Jared saying that the more recent rule overrides the older forum post?
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I think that what you just described is why we need more clarity, yes. Whenever a rule is changed, some portion of the community jumps to assuming that means that all previous clarifications no longer apply. Another portion doesn’t want to ignore direct clarifications that aren’t addressed in the rule change. Sometimes the rule change is meant to replace the previous clarification, and sometimes it isn’t. That’s why the FAQs used to include things like the date that it was updated and telling us it overrides the previous ruling, because if it is meant to change, someone can still see the clarification on the forum, look in the guide, and have no way of knowing that the rule was ever changed. People are treating the absence of a second clarification (in the guide) as proof that the first one no longer applies, and I just don’t see that as a good way to approach the rules. We follow the rules in the book, especially when we’ve been directly told to do so, until we’re told otherwise.
We have no way of knowing for sure that the update replaces the clarification. The two rules are not in conflict, and they work fine read together, just like the previous guide did. I also agree that it’s possible this is meant to replace the clarification, as I can see that as easy to get missed in the process. We shouldn’t be telling players that it is definitely one or the other. Especially not when Alex has said, in this thread, that he was planning to post more in an upcoming blog. Could we just wait for that blog before we start telling everyone they definitely should ignore the rule that we were previously told to use? If you’ll look above, somewhere, my advice was to wait for that blog. I brought it up here not to argue what the rule should be, or that it definitely is what I think it is, but to point out that if this was meant to change the Mwangi ruling, there is potential confusion due to the forum post, so that maybe that gets cleared up before we’re too far from this change for anyone to remember. Or, if it isn’t meant to change things, then so people are giving players correct information.
I also don’t think that the guide is the place where a clarification that the rule from the book doesn’t apply would happen. I would expect that to appear on the Character Options page under the book (that would also be a good place to confirm if the rule should be followed). It is entirely possible that is pending, because the different pages sometimes update at different times. This whole rule change was stumbled on accidentally before Alex had a chance to announce it.
So, please, everyone just wait until he has a chance to do that before you start telling players things with certainty. It’s fine to suggest they wait before adding the extra language. I’m waiting to do that with my own Mwangi characters.
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I'm still trying to figure out how this all works for a kobold that has grown up in the dwarven-majority culture of the Terwa Uplands which is considered part of the Mwangi Expanse.
I'm tickled to hear someone else has an Mbe'ke Kobold!
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Since this popped back up to the top of the list, it's been a little under a week since the blog came out. The blog didn't directly address Mwangi, and Alex didn't respond to my prompt there. I think there is a little more clarity to the intent in the blog, though:
Additional Languages
The Character Creation section of the Guide to Organized Play has been updated to grant all Pathfinder Society characters an additional regional language at character creation. It’s important to us that the characters in the campaign represent the diversity of the world of Golarion, and this small change ensures that characters from a region outside the Inner Sea can more accurately represent their home and know their home region’s language. Most characters will gain an additional language as a result of this update.
Since Home Region is mentioned, I think it's more likely now that it is meant as a catchall rule that encompasses the Mwangi rule instead of being in addition to it. So I won't be adding a language on top of Mwangi to my characters that come from the Expanse.
I also still think that a quick clarification would be helpful in the long run, as it's still possible to read the rule from the book as applying on top of this, and I'm not comfortable enough in my reading of everything to tell a player they need to remove something from their sheet.
