Encounter design philosophy

[gnoams]

I'm setting up an encounter, the players are walking down the road when they hear sounds of battle up ahead. They come upon a group of refugees being attacked by soldiers (it's a war torn country with a newly crowned ruler consolidating their power and cracking down on heretics). Presumably the heroes will rush in and help. (Try not to get caught up on this setup, the specifics of the encounter aren't the point)

So here's the question, the party happens to be level 10 at this point. Do you have, say 4 CR7 soldiers, an EL11 encounter appropriate for a level 10 party? Or do you say that makes no sense, 4 of the country's most elite soldiers wouldn't be off harassing some peasants. This should really be a band of 20 CR1 soldiers and maybe a CR3 sergeant or something, making it no challenge for our 10th level heroes.

When do you go for verisimilitude, and when do you say f--- it, it's a game, here's some level appropriate villains to fight?

[SunKing]

It’s a good question, with perhaps no satisfactory answer. It’s the sort of dilemma that inspired E6.

Either option is fine, I think. There is nothing wrong with PCs revelling in their awesomeness once in awhile, so you could leave It a CR1/CR 2 encounter. The other option works too; players understand they exist in a world where they just happen to wander into appropriately levelled threats.

I do remember being annoyed at an old 3.5 Dungeon mag high level adventure involving orcs, where every orc the PCs encountered somehow had 7 levels of fighter...it seemed like orcs where simply a poor choice of opponent in that instance. Likewise, maybe your heroes are simply too big a deal nowadays to worry about refugee columns.

(To be clear, we should ALL worry about real-life refugee columns...

[Speaker for the Dead]

Make it interesting.

[Waterhammer]

Level is a construct that doesn’t exist IRL, so there’s no real reason to not have 4 CR 7 soldiers if you want. You can just say they are experienced veterans, who a very good at fighting.

I’d go for a few more troops of lower power myself, but that’s more a personal preference thing.

[VoodistMonk]

Disclaimer: I am not a good GM.

I go for interesting more than adhering to any XP/CR/level guidelines. Enemies are built to do what I want them to do...

In your example, maybe I want one soldier to be an Intimidation build. I might gestalt him to add some class features that help with Intimidate. Maybe I want another soldier to dual-wield hand crossbows, another to throw grenades from behind a shield, a few pikemen with Shield Brace... or whatever. It is NEVER a matter of just grabbing 4-5 generic NPC soldiers, for me.

It makes the encounter fun for both sides of the table, although I can't say it makes it especially challenging... the party still shreds. They are well-equipped, good strategy, cohesive teamwork... and they make short work of everything I throw at them. They are also level 19. Lol. I can do whatever I want with enemies at this point... templates, gestalt, make'em-up custom monsters... it doesn't even matter anymore. Gestalting an enemy MIGHT buy them two more rounds in combat, maybe?

At some point, you have to either accept that they are the heroes and the game is designed for them to win... or you have to take it upon yourself to ensure that they do not win. Once I realized that the whole AP is designed to fluff their egos, not kill them, I just started making $#!+ as fun as possible... for me and them.

[Meirril]

gnoams wrote:

When do you go for verisimilitude, and when do you say f--- it, it's a game, here's some level appropriate villains to fight?

If the players are going to earn xp, they should earn it due to their actions. If you want to give them a story bonus for knocking out cardboard targets, give it to them based on their decisions. Not on how many CR insignificant things they can kill.

Now if you intend to make this a combat challenge, my suggestion would be make it a boss encounter with some fluff enemies for decoration.

The boss: A CR 10 cleric or inquisitor that is there to hunt heretics. I'd recommend a level 9 cleric with PC amounts of gear to bump him to CR 10. Though since every 'bad guy' here will have lots of sellable gear it would probably be better to have the BG be level 10 and most of his gear be mundane.

The bosses subordinate: A CR 7 bard. That should weaponize the "fluff". Taking down the bard will make this encounter a lot easier.

The Fluff: Not officially part of the encounter. You can make them regular soldiers, or an elite squad of heretic hunters under the cleric. Traditional would be a bunch of scale mail 1st level warriors with short spears and heavy shields plus dagger. Actual threat to PCs would be 1st level Gunslingers armed with Musket and Parade armor. 6-12 of them for decoration. Maybe mounted. Count their gear in as possible treasure since the chances of the 1st level soldiers be killed is high.

[Agénor]

Characters level 10 are superheroes. If Superman and the rest of the Justice League bump into a group of soldiers harassing civilians, it will be sorted in half a page at most.
The same applies here, this isn't an encounter worth having mechanically. Ask the players what their plans are when they manifest the desire to intervene then narrate it. From experience, players like it when the Game Master takes it upon herself to describe positively and with lively detail the actions of a P.C. Everyone likes to shine once in a while^^

- I do not like the system in the Elder Scrolls series where the level of encountered monsters scales with that of the character. If you don't scale down the ancient red wyrm for them to be able to best at level 3, don't scale regular infantry up -

That you want to challenge your players by presenting them with dangerous fights is an excellent thing. The P.C.s being level 10 means they rule, officially or informally, the region where they live. They have long stopped being mundane people at this point. N.P.C.s of similar levels are rulers, head of their orders and in general in positions of power. Just like the adventures of the Justice League aren't about mundane threats in order to be interesting, the same goes with your group. Time for them to travel through the planes^^

[Hugo Rune]

In my campaigns, level 10 characters are generally known nationally and treated as nobility. Unless they are far from their homeland they should be identifiable with a knowledge (nobility) or (local) check in the DC 10-15 range by the soldiers and/or refugees.

With that in mind I would make the encounter a relatively low level one - they can do whatever they want and achieve it easily. However the story of their deeds will spread and they will make powerful friends and foes as a result. If they slaughter the guards or prevent them from carrying out their orders then the new ruler may seize their assets and put a bounty on their head but they are seen as popular heroes by the commoners. If they support the ruler and attack the refugees then the churches, commoners etc will deny them assistance and getting supplies will be difficult but they have the support of the ruler and the goodwill of the military.

[ErichAD]

I like to use troops for this sort of thing. It keeps your herd of nobodies mildly interesting, but if that's the only enemy unit, the combat could run a bit boring. However, sometimes you need to look at the purpose of the encounter and see how you can make it difficult without just bumping some numbers up.

The goal of the party is to end the threat on the refugees, and to prevent the soldiers from calling for serious backup or identifying the party for their superiors. The inability of the soldiers to damage the party isn't important to the difficulty of the encounter.

[SheepishEidolon]

gnoams wrote:

So here's the question, the party happens to be level 10 at this point. Do you have, say 4 CR7 soldiers, an EL11 encounter appropriate for a level 10 party? Or do you say that makes no sense, 4 of the country's most elite soldiers wouldn't be off harassing some peasants.

I'd embrace the mismatch and make the soldiers' high CR very obvious, with glowing +1 weapons and odd boots that basically shout "MAGICAL". Give players a moment to wonder themselves: Why do these people threaten rag-tag refugees?

Shouts from the soldiers' leader at the refugees might then reveal the reason: Maybe one of the refugees looks like a guy the leader really hates and he confuses the two. Maybe it began more civil, but then one of refugees said something that was interpreted as an insult (whether it was intended that way or not). Maybe they are simply racists. Maybe they want them as slaves - or to sell them as such. Maybe they think the refugees should have stayed and fought, like they always did.

[thejeff]

gnoams wrote:

I'm setting up an encounter, the players are walking down the road when they hear sounds of battle up ahead. They come upon a group of refugees being attacked by soldiers (it's a war torn country with a newly crowned ruler consolidating their power and cracking down on heretics). Presumably the heroes will rush in and help. (Try not to get caught up on this setup, the specifics of the encounter aren't the point)

So here's the question, the party happens to be level 10 at this point. Do you have, say 4 CR7 soldiers, an EL11 encounter appropriate for a level 10 party? Or do you say that makes no sense, 4 of the country's most elite soldiers wouldn't be off harassing some peasants. This should really be a band of 20 CR1 soldiers and maybe a CR3 sergeant or something, making it no challenge for our 10th level heroes.

When do you go for verisimilitude, and when do you say f--- it, it's a game, here's some level appropriate villains to fight?

Thing is, the specifics of the encounter are the point.

Is this essentially just a random encounter to give PCs something to fight? Then you need to make it a level appropriate fight.

Is it basically here to introduce a larger conflict - involving the new ruler or whatever? Then it can serve that purpose without being a challenging fight. Here the tension might be in how the PCs handle the situation and how that will set up later interactions with the country's government or with the heretics.
Just openly slaughtering soldiers might have consequences. Maybe there's a diplomatic approach that can still protect the refugees?

[gnoams]

I see a few people here saying level 10 characters are super powers. That makes me wonder, how do you see heroes (PCs) fitting in to your setting? Are they unique world shakers, or is it a world of heroes and there are many like them?

my home setting:

It may be good to add at this point, I run a homebrew setting, not Golarion. My setting is based on an earlier state of civilization. Things are a bit more primal, and human civilization is not the most powerful force on the planet. My world is also a bit higher leveled then what seems to be the standard assumption. For example, a normal human teenager would be 1HD, an average adult is 3HD, and an elderly person 5 or 6HD. The big name npc kings and warlords of the world are in the 15 to 17HD range. In this particular scenario the new ruler is the Storm Queen; her fanatical followers claim she is the living avatar of their god. As far as the pcs are concerned she is just background, not appearing in this adventure, and way out of their league to even think about fighting at level 10 anyway. The struggle of this kingdom is not at all related to the main plot of the adventure.

[VoodistMonk]

Unless you want every encounter to be the party flexing on exponentially growing numbers of generic level 1 warriors... there has to be equal level enemies.

Encounters with umpteen million minions take too long. We only have so much time available each session, and I am not going to waste it with pathetic low level encounters.

Plus, late level class abilities are fun, why not give them to the enemies? Ever want to play an XXX? Build the character you want to play, slap an Evil alignment on them, throw them at the party. This is also a way to play with Prestige Classes, which generally suck and nobody actually wants to play otherwise.

The party are heroes because of their deeds, not their level... everybody levels, that's nothing special.

[yukongil]

I very much agree with thejeff. The reason for the encounter is important and should dictate how the encounter is built.

If you just want your players to kick some mook hoop, then field a bunch of level 3 or so fighters and let them go to town, sometimes its just fun to fight a million-zillion ninjas!

If you want it to be an actual combat encounter, make them level appropriate and decide that this elite squad is out hunting a particularly heretical group of heretics, meaning that saving them might actually be of some use to the group down the road (I mean, saving a bunch of 1st level commoners is well and good and should be done, but if one in their number is actually the high priest of the rebel alliance or somesuch, that can actually be of use to the group later)

If it's just for story building, ie setting up the tyrannical rule of this new monarch, let the group roleplay it out, let them describe the scene on how they run off or defeat the soldiers, don't even waste time on rolling vs such low level threats that will just eat up time.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

gnoams wrote:

I see a few people here saying level 10 characters are super powers. That makes me wonder, how do you see heroes (PCs) fitting in to your setting? Are they unique world shakers, or is it a world of heroes and there are many like them?

The idea that 10th level characters are superheroes is...well, let's just say that I don't run E6. I run Mystara and 10th level characters are not uncommon. Heck, max level characters are plentiful compared to many settings (the country of Alphatia has a council of 1000 max level mages, for instance).

The PCs are the focus of their story and now that they are 20th level they are quite influential (on first name basis with several rulers, including the two most powerful emperors in the world), but they are hardly the only high level characters, and not the only party going around saving villages/kingdoms/worlds.

[ErichAD]

gnoams wrote:

I see a few people here saying level 10 characters are super powers. That makes me wonder, how do you see heroes (PCs) fitting in to your setting? Are they unique world shakers, or is it a world of heroes and there are many like them?

While I'm currently running a game world where high level characters are fairly common, it's more complicated than I'd like. One of my players frequently throws his hands up in frustration when one thing or another is designed entirely differently than its real world counter part either to defend against high level characters, or due to their ability to create otherwise inexplicable things.

Typically, I have anyone of teleportation level living outside of society. 10th+ characters exist, but they have their own social and political hubs, well disguised taverns, hidden cities, that sort of thing. I don't like the idea of large scale populations relying on extremely powerful individuals for stability and daily tasks. It's too volatile.

[Mark Hoover 330]

See, now... I grew up playing D&D in Greyhawk so my homebrew tends to reflect a more gritty, modest-fantasy setting. My PCs just hit level 10 but once they hit level 7 I gave them Leadership as a free bonus Feat b/c by level 7 they were some of the most individually powerful beings besides the actual nobles of the land.

Are there level 20 NPCs in my game? Certainly, but they don't typically walk around in broad daylight flexing. My players are already beginning to learn that the upper levels of my game make them extremely impressive to the rubes, but a living target for things like ancient dragons, ruthless liches and so on. In other words, a monster doesn't live 800 years and become earth-shatteringly powerful just by sleeping on a pile of treasure. They identify and neutralize threats when they arise, and the PCs in my game just made the list.

Getting back to Gnoamy's spoiler info tho, if the current monarch has nothing to do with the encounter then... why should the characters care? I mean, the refugees ARE being oppressed, so there's that, but while it sounds callous that might not be enough to get them to do anything about it. Or rather, the PCs might be just as likely to exploit the refugees once the fight is over: "Ok, we saved you... you belong to US now. Carry our gear and entertain us along our journey, and we may yet let you live."

I'd agree then with El Jeffe and Yukon Gold upthread; context matters. Context is the difference between a throw-away of 20 CR 1 minions having their lunch handed to them by 4 powerful characters and 4 CR 7 NPC's built with PC classes, anticipating the characters' approach and laying all kinds of spells in the surrounding terrain to maximize the threat they pose.

If you're wondering when to use verisimilitude and when to say f-it, context is your guide.

Some other suggestions, in case you don't want just a horde of minions or 4 CR 7 elites:

1. don't even worry about any of the harassers' CRs, and have one of them transform into a CR 10 demon when the PCs arrive

2. make the villains all undead under the control of a CR 10 hag coven standing near the road, invisible

3. in the middle of the battle make the ground erupt with 3 giant ant lions ridden by CR 5 duergar

4. darken the sky with the shadow of an adult black dragon

5. swarm the characters with a dozen foes: 4 ogres, 2 trained black bears, 5 medium earth elementals and an evil half-elf druid 4 specialized in Conjuration

[gnoams]

I wrote, "Try not to get caught up on this setup, the specifics of the encounter aren't the point," because I was trying to spark a conversation about encounter design, levels, verisimilitude, and world building, not necessarily just about this one specific encounter.

I run a fairly player driven campaign. While their overall goal is tracking down the remaining parts of this artifact, the players decided to go a bit out of their way to travel through this kingdom. One of the pcs is from the region and a priest of one of the oppressed religions. The players were also instrumental in helping the Storm Queen rise to power in the previous campaign. I envisioned the players rescuing these refugees as a way to give them some personal connection and introduce some npcs to befriend. The pc priest also took leadership, so I was thinking this could be a way of giving her followers. So while it is irrelevant to the current campaign, there are a number of reasons I want to include this scene.

[yukongil]

I think most of the advice still stands. It depends.

I always try and keep verisimilitude in mind when crafting a game and its encounters. If the party needs CR X to fight, I'm going to find an in-game reason for the encounter to be that X. Like inventing a reason why a high level group of guardsmen might be after these specific commoners as above. I'm not going to have every encounter be within their optimum CR range. They want to waylay a random city guard, more than likely he's going to be a level 1 or 2 warrior and they can have their way with them. I've never been much of a fan of the Elder Scrolls method of NPC generation (where everything is an appropriate level to encounter*). For a video game, it's fine, for a table top, we have quite a bit more control over the narrative and structure

*that is not to say that I won't move my heavens and earths to create situations where such encounters won't be challenging or at least entertaining however, whether that means setting up something way above their pay-grade to be manageable through environment or circumstance or something that should be a cake walk have a hiccup or two to keep it interesting.

[thejeff]

gnoams wrote:

I wrote, "Try not to get caught up on this setup, the specifics of the encounter aren't the point," because I was trying to spark a conversation about encounter design, levels, verisimilitude, and world building, not necessarily just about this one specific encounter.

I run a fairly player driven campaign. While their overall goal is tracking down the remaining parts of this artifact, the players decided to go a bit out of their way to travel through this kingdom. One of the pcs is from the region and a priest of one of the oppressed religions. The players were also instrumental in helping the Storm Queen rise to power in the previous campaign. I envisioned the players rescuing these refugees as a way to give them some personal connection and introduce some npcs to befriend. The pc priest also took leadership, so I was thinking this could be a way of giving her followers. So while it is irrelevant to the current campaign, there are a number of reasons I want to include this scene.

But the specifics are the point. If the encounter exists in a complete vacuum - like some wandering monster type encounters, then you might as well change it up so that it's an interesting threat.

If it has another purpose, then you can handwave the combat part of the encounter (or play it out if you think the players will enjoy curbstomping the soldiers) and focus on the other purpose.

You could also justify giving them more power than expected, if you wanted to highlight something going on here more than just some random soldiers beating up refugees, but it seems you don't want that.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I try to make encounters mean something. They don't need to be a challenge but it should be worth our time to actually play them out.
Taking the OP example, what is the purpose of the encounter?
Is it to provide the PCs with a story hook? Then it doesn't matter what level the attacking soldiers are, the important thing is to get the PCs involved.
Is it to give the players a little work out? Then having the soldiers be higher level can work. Why are more powerful soldiers harassing peasants? Maybe they're looking for someone or something. Maybe they're traveling from A to B and stopped for some fun. Maybe they're on leave and are blowing off steam. They can easily, from a world building perspective, be more powerful than average soldiers and still be out in the middle of nowhere doing pointless stuff.

When encounters don't mean anything there isn't any point in playing them out. My aforementioned 20th level PCs get to fast forward through a lot of encounters in this way. The odd group of low-level opponents will still try to stop them from time to time but they are barely worthy of "and you mop up some people trying to stop you on your way to facing the Destroyer of Worlds". With certain key skills like Diplomacy in the 30s and low 40s they can get past a lot of minor social hassle with ease. Most social encounters like gathering information, finding out who's lying, interrogating suspects, and trying to convince people to help them is a foregone conclusion in most cases, so they can get to the more important things in the adventure.

One pet peeve of mine is the insistence of some people that certain common abilities ruin games. Things like Fly and Teleport breaking the game, for some inadequately explained reason. I could go on a rant about how wrong these people are, but the important thing to take away from this is that higher level characters get more options and more ways of handling or bypassing certain types of obstacles. It's important for a GM to be aware of what the PCs can do and change the sort of obstacles they put in their game. If you try to write higher level adventures the same way as low level ones just with bigger numbers for attacks and hit points, you're in for a rude surprise when even a low-op group steamrolls it.

[Mudfoot]

I would have the soldiers as low level (1-3, with a 5th level leader). The leader might have a couple of consumables that cause momentary trouble, such as a thing to capture heretics that knocks out a PC for a round or two, but they're mooks. The PCs can go in and show off to the locals how awesome they are and get the girls and glory. It should be quick and simple. They might need to be careful of collateral damage (no big AoE blasts) but otherwise this should be a 2-round walkover.

However, it's also a question of what happens next. If the PCs are observed doing this, the BBEG's minions will take note and see what they can do. So they'll be better prepared next time.

And is this encounter here to be just a fight for fight's sake, or is it to rescue a significant NPC? Or find a McGuffin? Or introduce the enemy? Or to soak resources? Not all encounters need a secondary reason, but it's good to have one.

Otherwise, you need to be consistent. If some soldiers are 1st level and other (outwardly identical) soldiers are 8th level, the PCs will have to play safe and nova each one. Or they'll get very annoyed.

[Meirril]

gnoams wrote:

I see a few people here saying level 10 characters are super powers. That makes me wonder, how do you see heroes (PCs) fitting in to your setting? Are they unique world shakers, or is it a world of heroes and there are many like them?

Each GM is going to present the world in the way they see it. Typical for older campaign settings and Galorian high level humanoids are rare. Typically 1-3rd level characters can be found anywhere. Most of them are NPC classes, not player classes. A 1st level fighter is typically more of a threat than a 3rd level expert. The vast majority of people are 1-3rd level commoners with less than 10 ability points in attributes.

Almost every village and definitely ever town as a smattering of 5th level characters. Generally speaking, they are considered 'experts', or 'retired travelers' or have a leadership role in the village/town. Your typical Mayor and Sherriff are going to be somewhere around 5-8th level.

Nobility can be all over the place. From 1st level to 12th level shouldn't surprise anyone. Most noble characters will have several levels in the noble NPC class, and a few levels in player classes. Also in general they are usually slightly higher in level compared to commoners of the same age. Generally speaking, these NPCs aren't created to be fought against, but just as part of the background. They usually only gets stats when they are in opposition to the PCs and a fight might break out.

Leaders in cities are usually the top of the easy to find NPC in the game world. The leaders found in the various major organizations (government, religious, underworld, military, ect) tend to be 8th-12th level. Several of their direct subordinates and supporters are typically about the same level.

NPCs above 12th level certainly exist, but they usually aren't public figures. People seeking the services of such characters become annoying. Leaving subordinates to handle matters and focusing on their own agenda is the norm. The closer a NPC is to 20th level usually the less they deal with the public.

There will always be exceptions.

I find that having a few 'hidden' high level NPCs in a campaign can be good. Don't let the NPC take center stage in the story, but using them as a means to move the players in the desired direction can be good. Use them to inspire and motivate the PCs, not as a more reliable version of Contact Other Plane.

[VoodistMonk]

NPC's exist across the spectrum, they have to... no 5th level Adept is forging rings, but they are available at the store. Not every person that reaches level 10 is assassinated by the local dragon or lich.

NPC's/enemies exist to serve a purpose, their level and stats are irrelevant so long as they serve their purpose... be it story enhancement or challenging the party.

For non-combatant NPC's, make sure they can offer the party level appropriate gear and quests...

For enemies, keep BAB and caster level about on par with the party... however many levels of whatever classes that takes, do it.

Don't get caught up in these completely fabricated ideas like CR, level, XP... level the party when you think it's appropriate. Throw enemies at them that you think are appropriate. Focus on details that matter, like eye color, voice inflection, the scar over dude's eye, weather, scenery, battle tempo...

Just an example... I pieced together a Wizard/Agent of the Grave/Alchemist... 20HD, all of it classes levels... but BAB +11, CL9 and 5th level spells, with CL10 and 4th level extracts makes for an enemy that will be introduced around level 10.

[Scavion]

gnoams wrote:

I see a few people here saying level 10 characters are super powers. That makes me wonder, how do you see heroes (PCs) fitting in to your setting? Are they unique world shakers, or is it a world of heroes and there are many like them?

1-4th = Gritty Realism/Everday people you might see

5-6th = The peak of realistic fantasy/The best in world(compared to our own)
7-9th = Fantastical ability/Once in a generation type people
10th-14th = Street Supers/The stuff of myth
15-20th = Functionally Demigods/The gods typically communicate with you on the regular.

gnoams wrote:

For example, a normal human teenager would be 1HD, an average adult is 3HD, and an elderly person 5 or 6HD

This seems strange to me because that would mean the elderly are the most effective fighting force/militia in a village.

[VoodistMonk]

The elderly in my games are usually closer to 15HD... enough to warrant the old age adjustment, with enough class levels to functionably "retire" from the class.

Whether or not they are still remotely active in their previous role depends on what that role was... magics, even when retired, usually are crafters. They either run a shop, or casually craft items to be sold in other shops. Retired soldiers are often contractors, advisors, and trainers for city guardsmen and the like. Experience is a terrible thing to waste.

How your average world exist with level 12 superheroes is beyond me. Level 12 is like a Staff Seargant... you're like barely over halfway there... keep trying little buddy. Superman isn't level 12 in my games. Level 12 is where things are just getting interesting.

Seriously, if everyone is expected to be so low HD/level on average... who is crafting all the magic items with double digit CL requirements? These once in a generation people? There's not enough of them to stock the shelves of one store, in one city.

[Meirril]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Seriously, if everyone is expected to be so low HD/level on average... who is crafting all the magic items with double digit CL requirements? These once in a generation people? There's not enough of them to stock the shelves of one store, in one city.

One of the really shocking changes in Pathfinder from 3.5 was that anyone with the right feats can make any magic item. Well, Potions, Scrolls and Wands require you be able to cast the spell and you can't make them a higher CL than you can cast. But for other magic items you can make things by skipping the requisites by upping the DC.

Also the magic item creation rules are constraints for PCs. Most GMs are just determining if the item exists in a store, not trying to figure out how to explain its existence in their campaign by giving each item a detail history including who made the item and who enchanted it. Heck about a quarter of the 'unique' items introduced in published adventurers weren't created but were the results of events that imbued an item with powers.

[thejeff]

VoodistMonk wrote:

The elderly in my games are usually closer to 15HD... enough to warrant the old age adjustment, with enough class levels to functionably "retire" from the class.

Whether or not they are still remotely active in their previous role depends on what that role was... magics, even when retired, usually are crafters. They either run a shop, or casually craft items to be sold in other shops. Retired soldiers are often contractors, advisors, and trainers for city guardsmen and the like. Experience is a terrible thing to waste.

How your average world exist with level 12 superheroes is beyond me. Level 12 is like a Staff Seargant... you're like barely over halfway there... keep trying little buddy. Superman isn't level 12 in my games. Level 12 is where things are just getting interesting.

Seriously, if everyone is expected to be so low HD/level on average... who is crafting all the magic items with double digit CL requirements? These once in a generation people? There's not enough of them to stock the shelves of one store, in one city.

The elderly are usually closer to 15HD? Like most of them? Random grandmas in the little village? Not just the occasional ringer, but as the expected thing?

How do any monsters stand a chance?

As for magic items and things - there aren't that many and they rarely get destroyed (though occasionally lost for centuries in dungeons). Without tons of high level adventurers to be equipped, you don't need that many high level casters churning them out.

That's also where the purchase price limits and the spell casting limits by settlement size come in. Those are the expectations set in the setting material/rules.

[Scavion]

VoodistMonk wrote:

How your average world exist with level 12 superheroes is beyond me. Level 12 is like a Staff Seargant... you're like barely over halfway there... keep trying little buddy. Superman isn't level 12 in my games. Level 12 is where things are just getting interesting.

Yeah no, a 12th level Character can bench multiple tons, leap more than 10 ft in the air, smash through thick stone walls, etc. The world Olympic record for weight lifting is about 580 lbs. We're chumps in real life.

Superman doesn't have levels. He's effectively a deity. He does things like hold infinity and go back in time. When I say street supers, I think Spiderman or maybe Batman in his less insane stories.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Seriously, if everyone is expected to be so low HD/level on average... who is crafting all the magic items with double digit CL requirements? These once in a generation people? There's not enough of them to stock the shelves of one store, in one city.

Magic item shops aren't prolific for one. Items over 16,000 gp value straight up can't even be found regularly in towns. They're items you have to seek out. Magic items, especially permanent ones, don't leave circulation. They're difficult to break and well taken care of. You don't get your sword from ye olde 3d printer magic shoppe. It's the Flametongue forged over one hundred years ago by dwarven artisans. It was recovered from a battlefield and wielded by multiple owners before ending in the hands of a traveling merchant. Your average citizens and even nobility don't deal in magic items regularly.

[mardaddy]

Keeping consistency with what you already say is you home setting, the option of 20 CR1 soldiers is completely out of the question. Unless you are envisioning a large gang of teens...

You say teens = CR1, adults = CR3, I also like to do non-mook, divergent builds to keep it interesting and potentially surprise the PC's.

Or... If you go with a bunch of teens harassing the refugees, maybe it starts getting "pushy" and if the PC's step in and get non-violent physical to put a stop to it, the one they shoved to the ground is a guild master's son, or a noble's son and takes exception, creating consequences later.

[VoodistMonk]

Like I said, I am not a good GM... I obviously so not understand or adhere to core mechanics of this game.

Who wants to play in a fantasy game/world filled with mundane, lame-@$$ normal people like they see every day in real life?

What's the point/motivation to become powerful when you can bully everyone at level 9?

Where do dragons get their hoards if everyone they lord over are so pathetic?

When do you decide that an NPC gave up gaining XP for the things they do?

Why would you want a world filled with lame people when you can fill it with fantastic people?

Magic exists here, everyone can have it... I find it really hard to believe that the party are a bunch of special and unique snowflakes in world with dragons, demons, angels, unicorns...

[Scavion]

A big part of why people dislike Forgotten Realms is that the world is filled with people who are perfectly capable of resolving all the problems on their own. If you want your players to be invested and not ask "Well, why are we important?" and the answer is "You're not" or "They're busy doing more important things" That's a pretty crappy way to feel about your heroes.

VoodistMonk wrote:

What's the point/motivation to become powerful when you can bully everyone at level 9?

Because you have bigger fish to fry.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Where do dragons get their hoards if everyone they lord over are so pathetic?

Dragons are immortal. They have a lot of time acquire these things. They can also subjugate vast amounts of land being flying creatures. A Dragon tithing a village of 100 people 10 gold each a month adds up extremely fast.

VoodistMonk wrote:

When do you decide that an NPC gave up gaining XP for the things they do?

Leveling up requires challenges. If you live a quiet life all your life without being in danger or truly put to the test, why are you level 15?

VoodistMonk wrote:

Why would you want a world filled with lame people when you can fill it with fantastic people?

Points of comparison. If everyone is secretly a bad ass retired adventurer, that's boring. If you use the word awesome to describe everything, it quickly becomes meaningless. Same thing.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Magic exists here, everyone can have it... I find it really hard to believe that the party are a bunch of special and unique snowflakes in world with dragons, demons, angels, unicorns...

The NPC classes represent people who are less specialized and lack the drive the PC classes do. Warrior are miltia/town guard. Fighters are captains and mercenary adventurers. The party simply has more drive than their peers. They're the heroes/protagonists.

[gnoams]

mardaddy wrote:

Keeping consistency with what you already say is you home setting, the option of 20 CR1 soldiers is completely out of the question. Unless you are envisioning a large gang of teens...

You say teens = CR1, adults = CR3, I also like to do non-mook, divergent builds to keep it interesting and potentially surprise the PC's.

I said HD, not CR, there's a big difference. Generic soldiers I'd write as CR1 (2HD). (Also if you think about it, modern soldiers aren't much more than gangs of teens- in the 18-22 range).

more home setting background:

This kingdom is on the edge of the civilized world, considered one of the more barbaric places. It is populated mainly by orcs and humans. There are three main religions. The storm god (CN) is a relatively new religion adopted from the pantheon of their more civilized neighbors. The first mother (also CN) is the oldest, traditional religion, considered cultists throughout the rest of the world. Demon worship (CE) is also prevalent. The new queen is a follower of the storm god, and perusing on aggressive agenda of "unifying" the nation. So the refugees are cultists and demon worshipers. One of the PCs is a priest of said cult, which is why I feel sure which group they'll side with.

[Mark Hoover 330]

You decide how many monsters there are, the willingness of NPCs to sell magic items, and so on. If YOU decide to handwave these things and make them commonplace, then they are and your players will play accordingly. If on the other hand you decide that monsters are a rarity, magic items are family heirlooms and society has evolved around these restrictions, your players will evolve to match.

Take a Small Town settlement. The base demos of this size settlement mean that there is a spellcaster for hire capable of casting 4th level spells and there are 4-18 magic items, no one of which can cost more than 1000 GP, avail for purchase.

Either that spellcaster is a 7th level Cleric named "Generic" and there's a "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe and 7-11" convenience store with a whole section devoted to Cloaks of Resistance, or there's an evil witch 7 who only sells her spellcasting selfishly and the Cloak of Resistance is the prized possession of a former adventurer-turned-farmer who fears parting with it because of "the dark times..."

YOU decide those details... that context.

To the OP, that's why context matters, yet again. The amount of verisimilitude or lack thereof all comes back to the game the GM is running, the context in which the encounter, conflict, Downtime activity or so on is occurring.

My game tends more towards smaller, more scattered culture, so while magic items ARE for sale in settlements you have to use some skills or spells to locate them and convince the owners to part with them. Spellcasting services in a settlement are not run by RAW; I warn my players up front that while a Village SHOULD have a 5th level full caster in residence, this won't always be the case and to plan accordingly.

As such monster attacks are a big deal. Also I use ALL of a monster's potential. For example, fey creatures have Disguise as a Class skill. Even if the generic Mite doesn't have Disguise in their stat block, that doesn't mean there couldn't be one of them hiding in an alley, looking like a halfling beggar. Add in that a mite has Prestidigitation at will and might be using that to make mud to add to it's disguise, hiding it's smell, making small tufts of curly hair appear on it's bare feet and so on to sell the disguise well.

That might mean that this Mite has been here, begging on the streets and living among the townsfolk for days. In the meantime the mite has Doom 1/day and Vermin Empathy. If it's been living here for days, what ELSE could it have been doing? What about sending vermin with notes tied to them, tracking guard schedules; sneaking into the local tavern and getting disease-ridden flies into their pantry; spooking horses and dogs to sow chaos and discord.

All of that, and NO ONE in town yet knows or understands how. See, the mite only needs line of sight to use Doom and has 90' Darkvision, so if the mite is hiding in the mouth of a dark alley, 90' up the street a horse suddenly getting the Shaken condition and then swarmed by biting flies may bolt, seemingly for no reason that the common folk could discern. The same flies turning up in a tavern pantry a couple blocks away might put suspicion there. As the local guard investigates, it would be a challenge for low-level NPCs with NPC class levels to spot something with a Stealth +13 hiding on a rooftop 90' away.

So then... what do the locals do? Well like I said, I already houserule that there's not ALWAYS a high-level spellcaster in a settlement. Instead the NPCs might turn to a more skilled, higher-level NPC. There's no guarantee of having some Sherlock Holmes type that puts all of the clues together and says "Mite!"

Maybe they think the tavern is cursed or that an evil spirit has manifested; perhaps they have a racial prejudice against goblins so they automatically assume this is the work of such creatures. They might decide to organize a militia, watch the tavern... at which point the mite signals others of his group to use Stealth to sneak in through the less-protected south gate and raid the guard tower.

The point is - using ALL of the monster's abilities and thinking logically through what goals that monster would have and how it would go about achieving them with those abilities is a great depiction of the verisimilitude that dominates most of my game.

Sometimes though I just like throwing a curve ball.

Having the players open a chest and out jumps a full grown Bengal tiger. Having a moss troll share its home territory with a half-dozen slime mephitis. Tossing a rogue ancient red dragon into a simple fight with 10th level characters and 20, level 1 fighters on the side of a road. Every once in a while I like to change things up.

Even if I ad-lib some of this though, I'm trying to come up with a REASON to make it so. The ancient red dragon was newly awakened by the big bad I want to introduce; the chest with the tiger had a one-time summoning trap inside of it; the slime mephitis were bound here by a coven of Green Hags who use trolls as their minions.

My point is simply that even random weirdness has to have some kind of justification, even if it's "because: magic." Otherwise I'm running games like I did when I was a kid:

Me: You see... ummm… a DRAGON! And... umm... *pages through the monster manual* a... MIND FLAYER!

Player 1: But... we're only level 1...

Player 2: How did a dragon and a mind flayer get into a 10' x 20' room with ONE door?

Player 3 & 4: have you SEEN the treasure type on those 2? We're gonna be RICH!

So I guess my answer to the OP would be I've always got an eye on verisimilitude, even when I use seemingly random monsters in an encounter. I design encounters though, or random encounter tables for my adventures, based on some semblance of magical reality.

Then I factor my players and their PCs into the mix. Just because an area or a context might call for a bunch of demons and monsters immune to Acid, that might not be the best fit for three of 4 characters who exclusively use Acid-based extra damage to resolve fights. Then again, I might decide to use those monsters anyways and then provide my players clues for several previous adventure sessions that monsters resistant/immune to Acid are on the horizon.

THAT is my encounter design philosophy: put together encounters that make sense, add something to the narrative and fit into the larger context of the game I'm running. Plan around my players and their characters, but don't tailor EVERYTHING to their current level and powers.

The final product, I hope, will be an engaging campaign filled with creative and dynamic encounters that challenge and help to entertain and inform my players as to what's going on.

[SheepishEidolon]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Seriously, if everyone is expected to be so low HD/level on average... who is crafting all the magic items with double digit CL requirements? These once in a generation people? There's not enough of them to stock the shelves of one store, in one city.

Well, crafting starts at level 1 (scrolls; potions for the odd alchemist), only staves need more than CL 9. And there is the often-overlooked Master Craftsman feat which allows even non-casters to craft magic items - if only weapons, armor and wondrous.

The majority of people has little interest in magic items (too expensive for the benefits), so they rarely compete with adventurers when it comes to demand. Adventurers, villains, rich NPCs (kings, merchants etc.) and a few monsters (dragons...) IMO make up the bulk of demand - but they are a small minority.

Finally, even if a single crafter creates only a single magic item per year, that's still (let's say) 50 items in their lifespan. And potentially each item is used by a lot of creatures, over time.

[gnoams]

According to base pathfinder rules, a village of 60-200 people has at least one spellcaster able to cast 3rd level spells. A small city of 5-10,000 has spellcasters able to cast 6th level spells. So yeah, the base game assumption is that spellcasters are pretty common, like at least 1 in 20 people can cast spells (an average thorpe of under 20 people has at least one 1st level caster).

Now I run my own setting as magic being less common than that. However, I also understand that it's a game and the mechanics don't support the setting that I want, so I work around it. I mostly run pathfinder as is for the players. I use some homebrew races and background traits, but I don't use any variant progression stuff and I give out magic items like normal, trying to stay near suggested wealth by level. I generally let players buy and sell items as wanted as long as they're in a decently sized city. I also let them use the dynamic magic item creation rules to craft things without needing the feats.

For npcs however I build them all as monsters, using the bestiary monster creation guidelines. NPC humanoids all get d8 HD and 3/4bab. I give them however many HD they need for the CR I want, again based on those tables in the bestiary, assign them whatever ability scores they need to get their numbers to be cr appropriate, and assign them skills and special abilities to suit their roles. If I give them magic items, it will be one or two items to make the appropriate amount of treasure for the cr of the encounter. This way instead of 4 +1 cloaks of resistance and 4 +1 chain shirts like you see in so many mods, I can have one guy with a +1 flaming scimitar. This also makes npcs way closer to cr than using class levels does, and also makes them simpler for me to run than using class levels does.

[Hugo Rune]

I once read an article about NPC levels and amongst the ideas was the idea that commoners, experts etc earn 2xp/day. Based on that article and during an idle period, I came up with the idea that a 1st level NPC had a 50% chance to level up in a year. A 2nd level could go to third after 2 successful annual checks and so on. So it would take a minimum of 3 years to get to level 3, 6 to level 3 and so on.

This produced a nice bell curve and it became readily apparent that most NPCs reach level 5 in middle age. With a few getting to level 10 before dying. From memory, I think a venerable elf could get to level 21.

That level distribution played nicely with levels 1&2 being apprentices, levels 3&4 being journeymen and level 5 being a master of their trade. Level 10 and beyond were the exceptional ones, like Leonardo Da Vinci.

At some point I would like to revisit the chart trying 5% per month or 1% per week to try and enable some exceptional individuals in the level 10-30 range whilst keeping the overall shape of 99% of the population the same.

[mardaddy]

gnoams wrote:

"modern soldiers aren't much more than gangs of teens- in the 18-22 range"

Being retired USMC, Desert Storm and Somalia vet, I'm well acquainted with the martial capabilities of 18-22 year old modern soldiers. I am just going to bow out of this conversation, you do (and believe) what you wish...