
DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

So... Wanda and Pietro are twins, right? Pietro ALSO survived exposure to the mind stone as well, right? Except, we never get any hints in Wanda's flashback that Pietro had "potential" for speed powers or his own brand of witchcraft.
They show him quickly moving to push Wanda out of the way a couple of times, but I don't *think* it was supernatural...
Follow me on this: Fake Pietro, inside the Hex, is shown to have super speed. One of Wanda's kids has super speed. Real Pietro had super speed. Vision never showed super speed in the movies, but Wanda's magic-created Hex version of Vision DOES have super speed.Does WANDA give people super speed with her magic? Is the whole reason that her real twin, Pietro, had super speed because she just willed it so after a power boost from the Mind Stone, so she'd have him with her?
I mean, she overheard from the loudspeaker before the mic got cut that everyone who had interacted with the stone before her had died. Maybe she 1. interacted with the stone and got a power boost; 2. feared that Pietro would die if he touched the thing after her; 3. subconsciously gave him some kind of power that manifested as super speed so that she WOULDN'T be alone in her Hydra quarantine.
This is a reasonable theory. That possibly even his managing to dodge and protect her a couple times in childhood was her probability hexing him, and when her powers expanded with the mind stone, she actually built on the idea that he was always there to move fast and grab her and subconsciously gave him speed powers rather than him getting the powers right from the stone.
If that's the case can we expand this insanity further? Could we say that while the DC universe has the "Speed Force" to explain all of the ludicrous super speedsters in their continuity, the MCU can now claim "Chaos Magic" as the basis for their own fasties?
I am not sure about explanation for speedsters specifically, but in general terms of explaining the whatever they can't come up with an explanation for, I believe indeed that Speed Force: Chaos Magic (and also Speed Force: Pym Particles) as far as both the cinematic universes and the comics go.
This said, the only other speedster we've seen in the extended MCU is Whizkid in Jessica Jones, who was super-serum enhanced, like Jessica. Not sure how much Marvel is regarding what happened in those shows as gospel, but I doubt Chaos Magic explains his abilities. Personally I think for Pietro and her son (and Hex Vision) Wanda did it (as opposed to " a wizard did it") but that isn't necessarily the sole source of super speed. Still what you are proposing may be possible.
===
Total tangent.... I am stealing this idea from some rando on Reddit. Someone pointed out the different colors of the magic as possibly matching those of the Infinity Stones. Wanda's Magic is red like the Reality Stone because Chaos Magic warps reality (the mind stone just awakened her access to it). When she "resurrects" Vision, the magic that flows into him is Yellow, true Mind Stone color, because she is transferring his mind essence that she absorbed earlier back into him. The Salem witches had blue, because they were using magic to hold Agatha in place. Agatha's magic, stronger than anyone else's magic, is purple like the Power Stone.
This may not hold up (Dr. Strange's magic is orangey and I'm not sure how the soul stone would tie in), but it's an interesting idea. Agatha also has black wisps mixed into her purple, which I assume is Darkforce, since she was accused of working dark magic.

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Does WANDA give people super speed with her magic? Is the whole reason that her real twin, Pietro, had super speed because she just willed it so after a power boost from the Mind Stone, so she'd have him with her?
I mean, she overheard from the loudspeaker before the mic got cut that everyone who had interacted with the stone before her had died. Maybe she 1. interacted with the stone and got a power boost; 2. feared that Pietro would die if he touched the thing after her; 3. subconsciously gave him some kind of power that manifested as super speed so that she WOULDN'T be alone in her Hydra quarantine.
Ooh, that's interesting, and fits what we've seen so far and Wanda's personality.

Thomas Seitz |

Color magic is always a bit weird, but I do think that when Wanda ress'ed Vision she didn't tap into the Mind stone because I honestly don't think that give Vision his SOUL. So...there's my two cents.
Also Vision has been fast. He managed to fly pretty well against Ultron bots. So I don't think his new form is faster than his old one...
As for Wanda giving Pietro his power...it's a possibility. I'm not 100% sold on it...but it makes more sense than some others.
I'm still waiting to see if any of this ties into either Chthon and/or Mephisto. Plus you know, Darkhold.

Queen Abrogail Thrune I |

So... Wanda and Pietro are twins, right? Pietro ALSO survived exposure to the mind stone as well, right? Except, we never get any hints in Wanda's flashback that Pietro had "potential" for speed powers or his own brand of witchcraft.
Wanda/Scarlet Witch is a nexus entity that is present in all realities. I think this will develop in the next Doc Strange/Multiverse movie. She basically 'emulated' one of the infinity stones when recreating Fake Vision in her own fake world sitcom reality. Apparently she also emulated an infinity stone during the Hydra captivity when giving powers to MCU (now dead) Pietro. However, MCU (now dead) Pietro remains a part of the puzzle that hasn't been solved by the geek squads yet, so a potential Magneto appearance when the next episode drops could explain some of this (or just leave us hanging in unfair yet so sweet post credit exaltation!)

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I'm still waiting to see if any of this ties into either Chthon and/or Mephisto. Plus you know, Darkhold.
Rumor has it that the SWORD director dude is in fact Mephisto. There's just too many coincidences coming from him, apparently (as in, he's orchestrating this whole thing which will lead to something big).

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
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Okay that was good. I think I saw about 95% of the things I wanted, which is pretty dang good.
But definitely sets things up well, and I really specifically enjoyed Wanda's journey. Given as she's not initially a character I had deep investment in they did a great job with her and I look forward to seeing her again. I think I actually have to see Doctor Strange: the Multiverse of Madness now, and I really have no interest in Doctor Strange himself, and so that's quite an accomplishment on the show runner's part.
So Agatha's punishment is to become a character played by Kathryn Hahn?
So, as many fans had started to guess, the actor Paul Bettany had always wanted to work with was, indeed, Paul Bettany.
I so very much want to babble more on this but will hold off.

Blosodriette |

Was that...

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That was a pretty decent ending, with some great set-ups for future MCU action....
Loved SW’s new costume. Very cool synthesis of what’s gone before in the MCU, and the comics.
Woot! Rambeau super powers!!! And it looks like Nick Fury is in her near future.
Still hate the idea of the Skrulls as good guys.
WOOT! Bleached Vision has the original memories!!! Looking forward to seeing him in the future Avengers movies.
Jimmy bringing the Calvary! Looking forward to seeing more of him. He grew on me throughout this show. I thought he was kind of a dick in the Ant-Man movie.
And, finally, THE DARKHOLD!!!! WOOHOO!!!! Can Cthon and Set be far behind?!?

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

Okay, this skit on the Tonight Show was very well done. Wait till the end.

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** spoiler omitted **

Feros |
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My favourite variant of this metaphysical question has always been, "My family has had this axe for seventy years! It's handle has been replaced ten times, and the head twice!" :)

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

Feros, now you're making me think of the other show I had been obsessively streaming.... the Repair Shop. Mmmm, the Repair Shop. Oddly enough, I think I've cried more often watching that than this show, not sure what that says about me.
Thomas Seitz, you were also wrong about Hex Vision being created from the Mind Stone. Wanda specifically says he was made from the piece that lives on in her. :)
I was wrong about a certain character having any significance. I think I just wanted that actor to have a bigger role. Among other things. Although I think I got the aerospace engineer.
So who was Jimmy's missing witness? I'm assuming if it was anyone it was Ralph, and that's why he had the headshot. Some people are assuming he was an actor but it could be a piece of an identity packet given him. So he was a guy playing a role playing a role. (Although if that really is his real name, Is he related to Terry and Laurie Bohner of the New Main Street Singers? (Warning: This link is just pure randomness if you're not me.))
Where did White Vision go like he left the oven on somewhere? The only home he had never got built past the foundation.
Why didn't Hex Vision tell Wanda "by the way, White Vision recovered his memories but flew off somewhere and also broke a perfectly good, expensive to replace window on his way out"? I realize it's a common sitcom trope to have ridiculous things happen because someone didn't tell someone something they should have, but I thought we had left the sitcom world behind us at this point.
Since Dottie wasn't a big deal, just a lady named Sarah Proctor coincidentally also the name of one of the first witches in Salem put on trial, why did Agnes make such a big deal about her, or was that just Agatha trying to just use one of the neighbors as misdirection? ((Also, to the writers, why were their sitcom character names the same names as the two female villains from Agent Carter? (I think this is coincidental, but it's just kind of interesting; I don't think it has anything to do with the show.))
Some of these I wish they had left the runtime go a little longer just to address some of these cleanly. I realize some of them will get answered later but I think they could be touched upon in a way to provide viewers more closure without "ruining" any surprises.

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

You were replying to me about my statement about it looking like Mind Stone magic (and please note I am not trying to make you feel bad, I was trying to tease a little and that probably didn't come off right). But it's easy to get all these things mixed up! But you were getting to a really good question: what does give Vision his soul? Does he actually have one, or does his depth of personality, being a combination of super-advanced AI and an Infinity stone creating a persona, just make it seem like he does? Does White Vision have a soul? What is a soul (as far as the MCU is concerned) anyway, and, based solely upon what we have seen in the MCU (not the comics), what does the Soul Stone actually do compared to, say, Mind or Power, other than force my favorite MCU characters to jump off cliffs and give the Red Skull immortality and the ability to figure out someone's parent's name?
Can the Infinity Stones tap into each others' capabilities? Like, Wanda's magic actually seems more like something the Reality Stone should do than the Mind Stone; Carol's FTL travel and ability to survive in a vacuum makes sense from the Space Stone but why does she have super-strength and energy absorption capabilities; wouldn't those come from the Power Stone?

Mark Hoover 330 |
So, let's see Marvel - Black Widow was a solid female character, that's cool, and Monica Rambeau has yet to be tested in the MCU. Otherwise
Jane Foster to this point (until Love and Thunder) is a damsel in distress, Valkyrie ran away from her problems until Thor showed her how to come back, Wanda's left
Oh, wait... there's Pepper Potts and Gamora. They're good people.
Now, I get that Wandavision was fully intended to be a vehicle to get us towards other MCU stuff, so maybe Wanda's arc isn't done, but just to be clear...
I don't feel like Wanda actually GREW, at all.
She began the Hex as a way to use her powers to escape grief. Her big move was essentially running away from reality. At the end of the show she makes no apology to anyone she's wronged, except Monica. She faces no jail time, is allowed to run away from the police arriving on the scene, and disappears into a cabin... where it appears in the post-credit scene she's doing some light reading, presumably to up her powers again, also presumably in service to the fiction of her kids, rather than face reality.
HOW is Wanda any different after the Hex than she was before? She's STILL in mourning, still looking for a way to "correct" the reason for her grief, and likely still planning to use her powers to do so.
I cried, I had the feels, but the last 7 minutes of the finale just left me feeling disappointed and angry. Ant Man has shown growth, Spiderman, Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, Loki, Dr Strange, Odin, Nick Fury (sort of), and every single member of the Guardians of the Galaxy, including one of their ENEMIES for crying out loud.
Wanda Maximoff is still basically left as a barely fleshed out TV trope, which she's been since her introduction. She hasn't learned anything except 1 rank in Knowledge: Arcana. Her growth can be measured in clothing choice. WTF Marvel, swing and a miss for me.

Werthead |

I think the dramatically different appearance of the Darkhold compared to how it looked in both AGENTS OF SHIELD and RUNAWAYS was a reasonable hint that those shows are not considered canon to the mainline MCU. It would have been easy to use a different book, mention that the book has recently been rebound or something (the original design was really awful, with DARKHOLD written on the cover in an Evil Font).
I think most people realised that ship sailed years ago with the somewhat different Kree, no Snap happening and various other issues, but I know some were holding out hope that they might bring those shows into the MCU canon but clearly not. Perhaps they'll be acknowledged as being set in a parallel universe.
AGENT CARTER is still very much in play (with CARTER-Jarvis showing up in ENDGAME) and perhaps the MCU-Netflix shows (which seemed to be much more popular than the ABC stuff), but I think that's another nail in the coffin for SHIELD.

Thomas Seitz |
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For the record, I LIKED Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Darkhold cover. Considering the fact the comic one had a large stylized D on it, that one was great. This one...eh.
DQ,
I don't feel bad about being wrong. I just...am a little confused because I HONESTLY thought Hexvision (I love that one) clearly had a soul. But you are correct, the Soul stone's actual power has never been CLEARLY defined in the MCU. (Not always sure the comics did either...but still had to be better than just glowing rock) Whether or not they connect is unclear, but it's certainly possible given that the people exposed to such forces/stones change dramatically. (This might even tie into Jane Foster in giving her cancer! Thanks Dark World!)
Mark,
I disagree. Wanda has grown. She could have kept the hex up if she truly wanted to. But she decided that she couldn't. While I agree it's troubling to the extreme her reading the Darkhold...it's not unlike Call of Cthulhu where some people read the Necronomicon and some how still come out of decent people. (Slightly unhinged sure. But still!)

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
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I figure they follow the Pathfinder rules of the fly spell, that if it's deactivated it fails slowly. That or Wanda was holding her up because she was trying not to kill her.
So, let's see Marvel - Black Widow was a solid female character, that's cool, and Monica Rambeau has yet to be tested in the MCU. Otherwise
Jane Foster to this point (until Love and Thunder) is a damsel in distress, Valkyrie ran away from her problems until Thor showed her how to come back, Wanda's left <snip>
Oh, wait... there's Pepper Potts and Gamora. They're good people.
Presuming it wasn't intentional, you've forgotten Captain Marvel (where we first met Monica) and the Wasp, who I think are pretty solid characters. Also Nebula. Mantis is less developed but also present. Sharon Carter deserves a redo/fleshing out which hopefully she'll get in Falcon and the Winter Soldier (*grumbles about Sharon's role in Civil War being cut because of Feige et al deciding to be fanboys and add Spider-Man, understands the Spider-Man fanboys will seek her out to beat her up for grumbling*)
I am all for more women in Marvel and the existing ones getting fleshed out, but I feel it's fair to acknowledge there are more and more of them, but in the last few movies we have finally gotten past Black Widow not being the only girl whose role wasn't primarily trophy-love-interest (no matter how badass they otherwise were). (We also have more, but still need more, POC heroes and LGBTQ heroes [f&+@ China]).
I don't feel like Wanda actually GREW, at all.
She began the Hex as a way to use her powers to escape grief. Her big move was essentially running away from reality. At the end of the show she makes no apology to anyone she's wronged, except Monica. She faces no jail time, is allowed to run away from the police arriving on the scene, and disappears into a cabin... where it appears in the post-credit scene she's doing some light reading, presumably to up her powers again, also presumably in service to the fiction of her kids, rather than face reality.
HOW is Wanda any different after the Hex than she was before? She's STILL in mourning, still looking for a way to "correct" the reason for her grief, and likely still planning to use her powers to do so.
I strongly disagree, and I didn't come into this a massive Wanda fan so I don't think I'm coming into this with blinders on.
Wanda let go of Vision and her kids, and sacrificed them to restore peace to Westview once she realized how badly she was hurting them (once the threats of SWORD and Agatha were dealt with). She seemed at the end at peace, at the acceptance phase of grief, and has decided to seek out training so she can control her powers and not hurt people anymore (she says she is trying to learn). She knew words of apology would fall empty upon the ears of the Westview citizens, who have been too hurt by what she did for it to make a difference (she says as much). The best she could do was give them back their lives and leave. (Honestly, were I a citizen of Westview, I'd be insulted if she tried to give a big speech and apologize--it would just feel so empty compared to what happened. I'd just want her to go and leave things be. Which is what she did.)
My interpretation of the post-credit scene is very different from yours. As we see her Astral Self reading the Darkhold, the Doctor Strange leitmotif plays. I think this is referencing not just that she is studying the way Doctor Strange studied in his movie, but suggesting that she has sought out his help in learning to control her magic. This is a huge sign of advancement and growth: she has gone from hating her powers and using them with wild abandon but learning to accept her power and be responsible for using it well.
You and I know the Darkhold can corrupt people. But Wanda has a different reason for reading it than, say, AIDA or even Nico Minoru. Agatha showed her that there is an entry in the Darkhold about the Scarlet Witch. I think Wanda is reading it to understand this mantle she's taken on and learn about herself--and, I would think, hopefully stop herself from ending the world as the book warns. She isn't looking for her children; but as she is reading it, she hears their cries for help--it is the Book of the Damned, and the cliffhanger is she has discovered that her sons' souls are in hell.
If she had refused to move past her grief, she would still be trying to deny her powers and their consequences, and also probably be looking for White Vision to see if she could turn him into her husband (she knows he exists even if she doesn't know the full outcome of the Double Vision tete-a-tete). She would have stayed on her Westview plot even if her neighbors didn't want her there. Given her not really wanting her power and not knowing what to do with it has been a huge piece of her character since Civil War, and her denying Agatha at the beginning of the episode that she didn't believe what Agatha was saying... that by the end of the episode she has embraced her mantle and power and learn more, rather than exist in denial, which has caused all her problems in the first place. She is far more at peace--or at least was until she heard the voices of her sons calling for help. I will say that one of my gripes is actually that cliffhanger. I would actually have preferred the show to just end with her training and being at peace, and just show s&%% hitting the fan at the beginning of Dr. Strange 2. But I still interpret all that happen that she definitely did grow and has moved past mourning.
I would also disagree with you about the male characters having far more growth. Tony Stark I think is the only one who truly ended in a different place where he began and for the better. Ant-Man and Strange have had a little growth but not comparable. Thor always seems to change slightly but then always returns to the status quo of cocky Bro-god. Hulk apparently had growth and a character arc that we weren't allowed to see and probably never will. None of the others stand out to me as having really truly life changing arcs, just more dialogue, for those whose stories have ended or have come at least to an end of a certain chapter, more closure.
I think the dramatically different appearance of the Darkhold compared to how it looked in both AGENTS OF SHIELD and RUNAWAYS was a reasonable hint that those shows are not considered canon to the mainline MCU.
In Agents of SHIELD, there was a notable point in dialogue where they very clearly explained that it changes its appearance. So if Agents of SHIELD is canon, there is a canon explanation for its different appearance. I think generally the film-based things aren't going to majorly reference the TV shows, but they aren't going to try to contradict them either where they can (and what contradicts is generally handwaved by multiverse/time travel shenanigans).

Selene Spires |
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I got into a debate yesterday with a friend over how Wanda should have surrendered herself to authorities and that would have shown true growth.
I pointed out how that would be a bad thing given the history in the MCU of the government reaction to super powered beings.
1) In Civil War Ross referred to Hulk and Thor as weapons not people. I forgot who but somebody made a similar reference to Wanda.
2) She litary dealt with SWORD claiming Vision as their property (which lead directly to the events of the show). And at the end she saw they were trying to make Vision into a weapon.
So we have a government(or at least parts of it) that sees super powered beings as weapons that they have a right to do whatever they want to in the name of what is 'good for the country'. So how can any super powered beings trust being handed over and actually get fair treatment?
I think it raises a interesting conflict of can the super heroes actually turn a super villain over to the authorities? The super prison (The Raft) is in the middle of no where with no oversight. Now with Vision they have clear evidence the government will do bad things.
I think that will be a interesting thing to explore in the future.

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My biggest complaint about agents of shield was they didn't try to do anything with the snap! Like what a perfect example of why AOS are around. A interesting challenge flesh out the back ground and answer some questions about the snap but I guess the writers weren't up to it.
I long thought AoS started to go wrong when they separated it from the main MCU. Those first few seasons seemed (to me, at least) to be stronger when they included fallout from events in the movies. I finally stopped watching the show sometime during the lost in future space with a destroyed earth stuff.

Werthead |
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My biggest complaint about agents of shield was they didn't try to do anything with the snap! Like what a perfect example of why AOS are around. A interesting challenge flesh out the back ground and answer some questions about the snap but I guess the writers weren't up to it.
Nothing to do with the writers. Reportedly, the film team refused to talk to them and refused to give them a heads-up on the scripts or what was going to happen in the films, so they couldn't align what was going on in the show with the films. They tried (Thanos attacking Earth is mentioned) but without the details they couldn't make it work.

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I wasn’t overly bothered by SW reading the Darkhold at the end. Even comic book Strange has read and made use of it over the years. Although I do recall something about “reading it even once damns your soul”, but that may be poor memory (especially after 30+ years of collecting).
Although any use of what she learns from it would be “Dark Magic”. Couple that with....
.....leads me to think Doc Strange 2 will have her using knowledge gleaned from the book to scour the multiverse for some version of her “family”. Hilarity ensues.

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What I want to know is how, in universe, is Agatha still flying once Wanda activates her mega-runes?
A) Spell was already cast? Runes only prevent new magic from being used, and doesn't reverse every spell she's ever cast in her life?
B) She's a witch, therefore made of wood, so she floats?
C) "If you wonder how they eat and breathe, and other science facts..."

thejeff |
I think she is going to be used a bit like a villain going forward.
Also I will say Wanda Maximoff has a tendency in the comics to get away with things she shouldn't. I personally do not like her character but I still enjoyed the show!
In the comics I think it's more that she gets used as a plot device. She does get away with things, but that's because she only did those things to make some big storyline happen.

Master Pugwampi |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |

Quark Blast wrote:What I want to know is how, in universe, is Agatha still flying once Wanda activates her mega-runes?A) Spell was already cast? Runes only prevent new magic from being used, and doesn't reverse every spell she's ever cast in her life?
B) She's a witch, therefore made of wood, so she floats?
C) "If you wonder how they eat and breathe, and other science facts..."
B. Obviously.

Quark Blast |
The Hex in WandaVision certainly fits into the 'she only did that thing to make some big storyline happen'*. He may be onto something....
As for the issue of MCU female characters being 'girl whose role is primarily trophy-love-interest', I'll believe that's no longer a thing when they cast an actress who manifestly lacks model-good-looks. While the male characters are generally look'n pretty sharp too there are at least a few notable exceptions - Banner, Groot, many of the bad guys.
.
Quark Blast wrote:What I want to know is how, in universe, is Agatha still flying once Wanda activates her mega-runes?A) Spell was already cast? Runes only prevent new magic from being used, and doesn't reverse every spell she's ever cast in her life?
B) She's a witch, therefore made of wood, so she floats?
C) "If you wonder how they eat and breathe, and other science facts..."
A) Those aren't answers! Those are more questions. And if you want more questions, here's one to bake your noodle:
Agatha was able to cast her ruins inside the Hex. That is, she created a magic zone of no other witch's magic inside another witch's magic zone.B) Well, she certainly floats.
C) Hey, if everyone else on this thread can dissect the MCU down to it's minutia I can prod once or twice with my own teasing needle.
:p
* In-universe the Hex was a manifestation of her unwillingness to confront the depth of her own grief but for our universe the Hex was a story vehicle to set up the next big cash grab.

dirtypool |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |

Agatha was able to cast her ruins inside the Hex. That is, she created a magic zone of no other witch's magic inside another witch's magic zone
There isn’t much to ponder here. Agatha placed her runes on the walls of her basement before Wanda cast her runes on the walls of her hex. Agatha’s runes warded a small section of the area inside the Hex and then Wanda learned how to do it, feigned missing Agatha with blasts of energy to create runes that superseded Agatha’s. She even thanked Agatha for teaching her how to do it.
That isn’t baking anyone’s noodles.

Mark Hoover 330 |
Wanda was confronted by Vision, she denied being in charge of the Hex. Wanda was confronted in a way by Fake Pietro, she denied being in charge of the Hex. Wanda was confronted by Monica, she threw the woman away twice, though the second time Agatha stepped in. She was confronted about her true nature and the Hex by Agatha, she denied it... until she was bound to a stake in an illusion, her own life on the line. Then she manifested the full power of the Scarlet Witch and embraced her nature.
She didn't do THAT for her kids or Vision, she did that for herself.
My own interpretation of how Wanda was studying the Darkhold at the end was simply this: she is hearing the cries of her children and studying a book that can help her control and utilize all the power of the Scarlet Witch, so I'd say her motives are to reclaim her kids.
In other words, remember what she told Billy and Tommy, about not bringing back the dead b/c you have to accept and move on? I don't think Wanda ever intended to move on.
I think that once she finally gave into the full power, tied to that stake, she realized she didn't NEED the hex anymore. She put the kids to bed metaphorically; you sleep now little ones, and then mama will read the Darkhold, learn to control her powers, and come "wake you up" when she's done.
I don't think Wanda can "feel" Spectral Vision out there in the world, so she's not out there looking for him. If I had to guess, she plans to "reawaken" the hex version of him the same as she plans for her kids.
I don't think she grew at all. I think she had an outburst at the townsfolk of Westview and started choking them all, then ended the fighting and the Hex, after which she walked through town NOT MAKING EYE CONTACT with anyone but Monica. Shades of Doom here is what it felt like to me.
She didn't apologize, didn't seek contrition from the folks that she'd imprisoned. I get the whole "the government is gonna be bad to supers" thing that Selene Brittany Spires mentions above, but that doesn't erase the fact that she's committed truly horrible, violent acts against an entire town full of citizens of the US. However... note that she ADMITS to Monica that she knows what she did was wrong.
Wanda KNOWINGLY accepts that she has done terrible things, but believes she's somehow above any other reproach than her own. But what does she DO in exile? She reads the Darkhold and, again, in my own personal interpretation of the post credit scene, only to further the plan she started with the Hex: if reality won't LET her have a family, and Vision, and a home, then she's going to get better at her powers and MAKE a family, Vision, and a home.
I think the call back to Dr Strange with the music was cute, but I don't think it was benevolent. Wanda didn't hear her kids in her astral form saying goodnight or telling her they loved her; she heard them SCREAMING. This didn't end on a "hey, let's get some positive training/Rocky style montage" vibe, this ended on a "I'm driven by the torment of my family" vibe which, again, reinforces my negative view of the ending.
Again, this is all what [I] feel. If others don't that's good; it means the show was good in presenting matters to chew on for a while. Still, if Marvel is going down the "Wanda's just getting started in remaking reality for her own whims" kind of road, I really wish they wouldn't have.

Thomas Seitz |

Set wrote:B. Obviously.Quark Blast wrote:What I want to know is how, in universe, is Agatha still flying once Wanda activates her mega-runes?A) Spell was already cast? Runes only prevent new magic from being used, and doesn't reverse every spell she's ever cast in her life?
B) She's a witch, therefore made of wood, so she floats?
C) "If you wonder how they eat and breathe, and other science facts..."
*nods* Definitely B.
Anyways, I don't entirely agree with A-zombie assessment on what will happen in Doc Strange 2...but I do think there's parts of it that are correct.

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
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Wanda was confronted by Vision, she denied being in charge of the Hex. Wanda was confronted in a way by Fake Pietro, she denied being in charge of the Hex. Wanda was confronted by Monica, she threw the woman away twice, though the second time Agatha stepped in. She was confronted about her true nature and the Hex by Agatha, she denied it... until she was bound to a stake in an illusion, her own life on the line. Then she manifested the full power of the Scarlet Witch and embraced her nature.
As episode 8 clearly demonstrated, Wanda had blocked from her own memory how the sitcom-universe started. She originally ensorcelled herself along with everyone else to believe fully in the sitcom world. The whole point of episode 8 is Agatha working with Wanda to break down those memory blocks. Now yes, earlier in episode 3, she realized something was wrong and that she was responsible for more that was going on when Vision confronted her. Yes, at that moment, she got frightened and refused to examine herself to figure it out and fix it. She wanted to stay where she felt safe and happy. It's wrong, but she only knew there is something she is doing to help maintain the sitcommy nature of the world (what she outright denied was controlling all the people in their daily lives ("going to the dentist" etc.), and I believe her when she said she didn't think she was doing that). When Fietro confronts her (which is Agatha trying to *provoke* Wanda), Wanda looks extremely confused--she doesn't understand half of what she is suggesting and is still blinded by her own effect. Yes, she knows at this point she is the "star of the show" and controlling certain things, but I think at this point hse believes she has created a sitcom paradise for everyone to live in. This is reinforced by her earliest conversations with Agatha--she is confused about what Agatha is suggesting, not angry or deceptive. Agatha had to break, effectively, Wanda's spell over herself before they could get anywhere.
As best as I can figure, Wanda wiped all of her trauma and nastiness form her own mind, and subconsciously broadcast it to all the other people in the form of nightmares. She had no idea of this until the people themselves told her in the final episode. At that moment she says, "No, you were supposed to be at peace." Not understanding how her spell fully worked (because she did it reactively/subconsciously) she didn't realize what had been projected onto them until that point. I have no reason to believe she is lying here, that level of deception has never really been part of Wanda's character, even if she is morally grey. I believe her when she says she thought she was helping them and giving them a better life and only knew otherwise until Agatha freed their minds. (And note, Agatha could have chosen to do that at any time, but didn't, because she wanted to see what would happen instead.) When they throw her pain back to her, she loses control again and nearly strangles them, and THEN she realizes with blatantly obvious horror both what she is doing at that moment AND what she's been doing to them all along.
Then she IMMEDIATELY begins to open the rift to let them escape. Now at this point, she is trying to have her cake and eat it too. She's thinking, open the rift so the people can get out, but I keep the hex so I can keep my family.
The problem is of course opening the rift lets in SWORD and White Vision. I've forgotten the exact sequence events here but somewhere SWORD recklessly invades, White Vision attacks her, and her kids and HexVision start to disintegrate. She halts the Hex growth because needs Vision and her kids' help to stop SWORD and the evil robot from blowing up the town while she is still contending with the evil witch trying to steal her power--and no matter what you think Wanda is going to do with her power, it's obvious Agatha will only do worse (again, if Agatha had any good intentions, she would have freed the townsfolk immediately on arrival and told Wanda what she was doing to them on day one and taught her how to fix things).
This is all /well/ before the stake scene. It's the confrontation with the townsfolk that is the FIRST TIME she realizes she's actually been hurting people. And as soon as she realizes it, she reins herself in, and from then on that's when she begins to accept her power because she realizes she has to do that in order to be able to control it -- to stop hurting people any more (which also carries over from her regret over incidents like Lagos). By the time the stake scene comes, she has finally begun to believe what Agatha says about her--and realizes that she has to accept what Agatha is saying if she is to control her power so she doesn't hurt people again. Only then does she earn, not grasp, the mantle of the Scarlet Witch.
TLDR: there is an arc here. From denial to resistance to bargaining to finally acceptance. That is growth. It's pretty fiction-composition-101-stuff. Hero has to fall a bit before rising.
My own interpretation of how Wanda was studying the Darkhold at the end was simply this: she is hearing the cries of her children and studying a book that can help her control and utilize all the power of the Scarlet Witch, so I'd say her motives are to reclaim her kids.
With all due respect, I suggest you watch that scene again. She is serenely reading the book. Suddenly, she hears her children cry for help: "Mom, help us!" She goes from looking serene to alarmed. That suggests she did not expect to hear their voices, let alone know they were in danger. We may disagree on why she opened the Darkhold to begin with, but I am not sure how else to read her facial expressions or the sequence of events here. If This Was All Part of the Plan, why would they be screaming for help and why would she look so surprised/scared?
I don't think she grew at all. I think she had an outburst at the townsfolk of Westview and started choking them all, then ended the fighting and the Hex, after which she walked through town NOT MAKING EYE CONTACT with anyone but Monica. Shades of Doom here is what it felt like to me.
Having been trained in mediation where I have to read a lot of body language, her no-eye-contact body language read to me "I feel very ashamed," not "I don't care about you." Obviously we can choose to interpret this differently; reading body language (especially performed-by-an-actor-and-filmed-by-a-director-and-cinematographer-and-then -edited body language) is not an exact science. I'm kind of fascinated by how very differently you and I see the exact same scene to be honest.
She didn't apologize, didn't seek contrition from the folks that she'd imprisoned. I get the whole "the government is gonna be bad to supers" thing that Selene Brittany Spires mentions above, but that doesn't erase the fact that she's committed truly horrible, violent acts against an entire town full of citizens of the US.
You can feel contrite (repent sins you have committed), but you can't "seek contrition" from someone else; regret and repentance are a thing you do, not receive.
Apology is an expression of contrition, but you can feel contrite and not express it to someone else, for all kinds of reasons (good or bad). Apologies are a nice way to say to someone else, "I f%$#ed up and I caused you pain and I am holding myself accountable for that," but there's nothing in the humanity rulebook that you HAVE to say those things aloud--and moreover there are times when people who are hurt who don't want to hear that or will refuse to accept an apology rightly given.
((Indeed, some people get insulted by apologies because the feel it is a demand for forgiveness. It isn't, of course. Forgiveness is releasing resentment for pain someone caused you. You can forgive someone without condoning their actions, and you can forgive someone who never apologizes, and you can also never forgive someone who does. But still our culture sometimes adheres to the idea if someone says "sorry" the other has to say "it's okay" so maybe Wanda is trying to avoid that, because there's absolutely no reason the Westviewians should say "it's okay"? People are complicated. Also forgiveness is not absolution, which leads me to...))
You can seek absolution (dissolution of sins) from another person, but that is different, and I don't think she felt she had the right to ask for absolution from the town. The best way to repent and recover was to seek to understand her power so she wouldn't abuse it again.
However... note that she ADMITS to Monica that she knows what she did was wrong.
While also vocally apologizing to her, because she knows Monica is ready to hear it in a way that the others aren't, and because Monica was one of the people she hurt. Because Wanda is contrite. And Monica, who seems to be a very good judge of character, seems to accept her admission and apology as sincere and reflective that she plans to do better.

Quark Blast |
Basically Wanda's growth in this series was one of going from a delusional retreat from her grief to a determined new attack on the cause of her grief.
Retreat --> Attack
Outside of the series it's a preamble for Dr. Strange 2.
The whole Hex is magical, down to every minor detail. Yet Agatha was able to cast her ruins on the walls of her magic basement which are inside the Hex. That is, she created a magic zone of no other witch's magic inside the other witch's magic zone and Wanda (the other witch) wasn't aware in any way.
I surmise this happened because it was time to set up the big 'third act' battle and the protagonist always wins those.
I don't think magic has a consistent manifestation in the MCU. Magic lacks verisimilitude, unless I'm missing something.

Ed Reppert |

Not that it matters much, but etymologically speaking there's no connection between a hex (a spell or curse) and a hex (a hexagonal two - or three in this case - dimensional object).