I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.And normally I'd agree with you, but Summoners have 2 faces to get caved in.
Incoming enemy attacks do not increase because you are playing a summoner.
The only thing that will hit you more is AOEs, and you already have a bigger hit die to help with that.
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Also worth mentioning that there is a myriad of ways to remove your Summoner body from most combats due to the length of the Tether. Even if you don't physically remove yourself by staying 100' behind your eidolon at all times, you could choose to Cast Invisibility or a similar spell, use the Synthesist feat, put yourself in a force cage, cast Sanctuary, etc. The fact that your summoner is not a direct combatant opens up a lot of the combat avoidance options as really good picks. Best part is you can still effectively buff your Eidolon by just targeting yourself with Haste or healing, so you can still contribute even when in the Absolutely Safe Capsule.
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I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.
Honestly, for my money Con is one of the weaker stats in the game. While the bottom tier is unquestionably Cha, Int, and Str at least those three correspond to some important skills or "to-hit" (if that's your preference.)
Constitution contributes to no skills, and you never add your Con Mod to any rolls. All it does is fortitude saves (important, mind you) and HP. But everyone has plenty of HP in this edition, and we have multiple feats that are effectively "2 points of constitution" for these purposes.
Still charisma makes more sense as sort of a "strength of your non-material toughness" needed to maintain a connection to the Eidolon. I wonder if we couldn't do something where the Summoner can get Cha to HP (possibly temporarily) by jumping through some hoops.
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I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Honestly, for my money Con is one of the weaker stats in the game. While the bottom tier is unquestionably Cha, Int, and Str at least those three correspond to some important skills or "to-hit" (if that's your preference.)
Constitution contributes to no skills, and you never add your Con Mod to any rolls. All it does is fortitude saves (important, mind you) and HP. But everyone has plenty of HP in this edition, and we have multiple feats that are effectively "2 points of constitution" for these purposes.
Still charisma makes more sense as sort of a "strength of your non-material toughness" needed to maintain a connection to the Eidolon. I wonder if we couldn't do something where the Summoner can get Cha to HP (possibly temporarily) by jumping through some hoops.
Realtalk, I second this; I hadn't brought it up since I figured maybe I was in the extreme minority by the tone of the discussion, but Con is not nearly as important as it was in PF1 since free HP from leveling up has more than doubled due to Ancestry and Class HP boosts. Back in PF1, I was afraid to take any character with less than 14 Con since I've seen rolling boulder traps one-shot backliners before they could react, killing them since they had a weak Con score (RIP local Witch player.) This edition, my first PFS character was a Con 8 Javelin-hurler Elf Ranger that prioritized Dex and Con, and he has rarely-if ever-actually gone to 0 in combat despite starting with a negative Con score and having over 21 sessions played. That is in part due to him maintaining distance and distracting enemies with an Animal, but the point remains that Con is not as necessary as it once was.
Obviously the Summoner will be wanting a 16 CON minimum as they are less likely to prevent damage from just having good positioning and will instead be on the frontlines, but I do not think that Key stat'ing CON is nearly as broken a proposition as it was in the last edition due to the changes made to the system's foundation.
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Currently no real reason other than using 3rd actions (Wich you don't have room for) for charisma.
As such I tank it as far as possible to have better defenses.
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Incoming enemy attacks do not increase because you are playing a summoner.
The only thing that will hit you more is AOEs, and you already have a bigger hit die to help with that.
I keep seeing you make this point in so many different forum posts and I respect your opinion. However the pure math says otherwise. All things being equal, if there are 5 PCs on the board, the odds of being attacked is 1 in 5. However if you are playing 2 of the PCs (AKA Summoner and Eidolon) your chances of being targetted is 2 in 5.
Now, you can certainly mitigate this in a number of ways (distance, hiding, corners, etc.), but since PF does not have an agro control function, you will never negate it and thus you will never get to the 1 in 5 ratio.
Now, add to this if there are other squishies in your party that attempt to avoid getting hit (Wizard, Sorceror, etc.) then your ability to stay out of the fight becomes harder as intelligent enemies attempt to go through the front line to the squishies and your front lines are thinner because there is more than just you trying to avoid combat often in a finite space (fighting in open fields is easier than cramped dungeons)
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All things being equal is never how real play comes out. Hypotheticals like this aren't useful. When I play my champion I definitely take way more than 1/5th of the hits in a given scenario even if I'm not stopping them all. I may not be able to aggro the opponents, but they also aren't doing a perfectly random distribution of attacks against the PCs. If that's your experience, I suggest you find a more interesting GM.Incoming enemy attacks do not increase because you are playing a summoner.
The only thing that will hit you more is AOEs, and you already have a bigger hit die to help with that.
I keep seeing you make this point in so many different forum posts and I respect your opinion. However the pure math says otherwise. All things being equal, if there are 5 PCs on the board, the odds of being attacked is 1 in 5. However if you are playing 2 of the PCs (AKA Summoner and Eidolon) your chances of being targetted is 2 in 5.
Now, you can certainly mitigate this in a number of ways (distance, hiding, corners, etc.), but since PF does not have an agro control function, you will never negate it and thus you will never get to the 1 in 5 ratio.
Now, add to this if there are other squishies in your party that attempt to avoid getting hit (Wizard, Sorceror, etc.) then your ability to stay out of the fight becomes harder as intelligent enemies attempt to go through the front line to the squishies and your front lines are thinner.
I agree completely, but when I or others in my group are playing Sorcerors, Wizards, and Witches in cramped spaces, we almost never walk away taking no damage either.
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I keep seeing you make this point in so many different forum posts and I respect your opinion. However the pure math says otherwise. All things being equal, if there are 5 PCs on the board, the odds of being attacked is 1 in 5. However if you are playing 2 of the PCs (AKA Summoner and Eidolon) your chances of being targetted is 2 in 5.
That assumes all attacks are randomly assigned. Which is absurd. Attacks go where they make sense.
Let's examine the actual scenarios, shall we?
#1: Large number of enemies. More than there are PCs. Here, somebody was getting attacked by multiple foes no matter what. Period. The Summoner is certainly likely to be one of those people...but it was gonna happen whether the Summoner was there or not. For example, if there are 4 PCs and 6 enemies, odds are 100% someone was getting attacked by at least two of them whether there was an Eidolon involved or not. Being a Summoner at least reduces the likelihood of them flanking you (though the Summoner's lower AC does mitigate that advantage).
#2: The same number of enemies as PCs (counting the Summoner as one PC). Here, the disadvantage discussed can sometimes happen. But really, it's not gonna be common unless the Summoner is the only backliner, since he'll be the backliner doing the least impressive stuff so ranged attacks will be more likely to aim at either a frontliner, or a different backliner.
#3: Fewer enemies than PCs. The Summoner and Eidolon both being attacked will very rarely happen here. It literally will never happen with one enemy unless they have AoE. It's a pretty rare circumstance with small numbers of enemies.
AoE are another matter, as are people who realize what's going on with the Summoner/Eidolon bond, but those are actually both fairly niche circumstances.
All of which is to say, this'll probably happen to most Summoners at some point, and is a disadvantage, but it's not gonna be every fight by any means. Or even a plurality of them, honestly.
In the first book of Age of Ashes, for example, a grand total of 4 out of 39 encounters involve the PCs fighting equal or greater numbers of enemies. Three adversaries is a bit more common and could theoretically result in this happening...but it's still a distinct minority of encounters, and this isn't gonna happen in every encounter with three enemies by any means. Multiple enemy encounters become more common at higher levels, certainly, but not that much more common.
Now, you can certainly mitigate this in a number of ways (distance, hiding, corners, etc.), but since PF does not have an agro control function, you will never negate it and thus you will never get to the 1 in 5 ratio.
Now, add to this if there are other squishies in your party that attempt to avoid getting hit (Wizard, Sorceror, etc.) then your ability to stay out of the fight becomes harder as intelligent enemies attempt to go through the front line to the squishies and your front lines are thinner.
I mean, how is your front line thinner? That's where the Eidolon is. Some people might absolutely try and get through it, but the Eidolon is as good at stopping that as most martials, and that just means there's some chance of the Summoner getting attacked, not that it's likely.
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I keep seeing you make this point in so many different forum posts and I respect your opinion. However the pure math says otherwise. All things being equal, if there are 5 PCs on the board, the odds of being attacked is 1 in 5. However if you are playing 2 of the PCs (AKA Summoner and Eidolon) your chances of being targetted is 2 in 5.That assumes all attacks are randomly assigned. Which is absurd. Attacks go where they make sense.
Let's examine the actual scenarios, shall we?
#1: Large number of enemies. More than there are PCs. Here, somebody was getting attacked by multiple foes no matter what. Period. The Summoner is certainly likely to be one of those people...but it was gonna happen whether the Summoner was there or not. For example, if there are 4 PCs and 6 enemies, odds are 100% someone was getting attacked by at least two of them whether there was an Eidolon involved or not. Being a Summoner at least reduces the likelihood of them flanking you (though the Summoner's lower AC does mitigate that advantage).
#2: The same number of enemies as PCs (counting the Summoner as one PC). Here, the disadvantage discussed can sometimes happen. But really, it's not gonna be common unless the Summoner is the only backliner, since he'll be the backliner doing the least impressive stuff so ranged attacks will be more likely to aim at either a frontliner, or a different backliner.
#3: Fewer enemies than PCs. The Summoner and Eidolon both being attacked will very rarely happen here. It literally will never happen with one enemy unless they have AoE. It's a pretty rare circumstance with small numbers of enemies.
AoE are another matter, as are people who realize what's going on with the Summoner/Eidolon bond, but those are actually both fairly niche circumstances.
All of which is to say, this'll probably happen to most Summoners at some point, and is a disadvantage, but it's not gonna be every fight by any means. Or even a plurality of them, honestly.
In the...
Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
That said, I'm not seeing this as a huge downside (in fact I like the connected HP pool, I think it is cool). I was just pointing out that so many people seem to be one extreme (huge liability) or another (no liability at all). My belief is that it is somewhere in the middle.
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Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
The point isn't that casters should be abe to avoid all damage at all.
Its that AC is not and never has been the best way to mitigate damage for casters.
Its that the Summoners exposure to attacks is not dramatically increased - certainly not doubled - by bringing an extra body to the field.
Its that unless your GM is doing some extremely hostile encounter design and metagaming, a shared hp pool is a minor liability, not a major one.
And its a liability with offsets. Not the least of which is the ability to more efficiently heal a Frontline combatant from safety, with more action friendly single action healing abilities (including Battle Medicine and Potions).
I think you actually agree with this, but it bears reiterating.
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Its that unless your GM is doing some extremely hostile encounter design and metagaming, a shared hp pool is a minor liability, not a major one.
And its a liability with offsets. Not the least of which is the ability to more efficiently heal a Frontline combatant from safety, with more action friendly single action healing abilities (including Battle Medicine and Potions).
I think you actually agree with this, but it bears reiterating.
This I can agree with. I just keep seeing people take this argument to one extreme (no detriment at all) to the other (omg the sky is falling with how bad this is). The reality falls in the middle and dependent on the terrain and tactical ability of the enemy. There are real benefits to offset any downside.
Frankly, I love the whole concept of the shared HP both thematically and mechanically
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Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
The point isn't that casters should be abe to avoid all damage at all.
Its that AC is not and never has been the best way to mitigate damage for casters.
Its that the Summoners exposure to attacks is not dramatically increased - certainly not doubled - by bringing an extra body to the field.
Its that unless your GM is doing some extremely hostile encounter design and metagaming, a shared hp pool is a minor liability, not a major one.
And its a liability with offsets. Not the least of which is the ability to more efficiently heal a Frontline combatant from safety, with more action friendly single action healing abilities (including Battle Medicine and Potions).
I think you actually agree with this, but it bears reiterating.
i agree, too many go one way or the other.
but realistically. how often do you have the leg up on an encounter? having the effectiveness of your class entirely dependant on if you have a nice dm, is not a resilient class.
games i play, ambushes in the night happen often, and the eidolon doesnt always catch it.
being pinched happens often, because outside of mindless enemies, even animals can have a grasp of basic hunting strategy.
fights rarely happen in basic square rooms, rather non symmetrical landscapes with line of sight breaks and various elevations. hiding out of line of sight has been a boon one fight, and a detriment another when there was a enemy behind that sightline i went around.
then, you introduce intelligent enemies. they see the sigil on the big scary monster, and see the sigil on teh weak dude not doing anything, given the world they live in, unless the summoner is considered a rarity that few people would know about, most intelligent beings would figure it out, and would take measures.
as for martials being a line enemies dont cross, this hasnt been my experience in 2e. stand still is a choice not a feature, and only stops movement on a critical. atm only the champion has ways to actively discourage being ignored outside of hitting something, and my teams dont have champions we have monks, rogues, fighters, barbarians, but not champions.
so is the baseline for summoner survivability is that the cards fall in your favor, and you have a champion? along with a dedicated healer?
because thats a lot of holding up for a single class, while every class apprecaites it, it seems summoner needs it.
but if you were to meta game that intelligent creature, they'd know that pretty much every other martial or caster is a bigger threat, so summoner gets to consistently stay alive because they are the least to worry about.
i dont view any of this as singling out the summoner, its just happenstance and logical decisions and role play. the result has been that the summoner goes down more, and more than once, the eidolon went down because both were being attacked, the summoner really only has those 4 slots to defend itself as its defense and offense is weak.
i actually had zero issues with aoe in my playtest thus far, because i dont stand next to my eidolon often.
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Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
Oh, casters absolutely take damage, sometimes more than martials. But anyone who's attacking them isn't attacking the martials. That being the case, every attack directed towards the Summoner is often one attack directed away from the Eidolon. And that's if they attack the Summoner rather than the other casters.
I'm not saying you won't get hit as a Summoner. You will. I'm not even saying you won't get hit more than people who don't have two bodies on the field. You will. I'm saying that, in almost any individual encounter, it's not gonna be anywhere close to twice as much.
A Summoner will absolutely need to be healed more than most other characters...but mostly only outside of combat, and they can actually be healed twice as much with Treat Wounds, so that works out nicely.
That said, I'm not seeing this as a huge downside (in fact I like the connected HP pool, I think it is cool). I was just pointing out that so many people seem to be one extreme (huge liability) or another (no liability at all). My belief is that it is somewhere in the middle.
It's a liability, my argument is that it's a pretty small one.
It's a liability, my argument is that it's a pretty small one.
I think the point that some of are saying is that the liability is going to vary quite a bit depending on a lot of factors like party composition, enemy composition, DM tactics, environment, ect. IMO, it might be a "pretty small one" and it might be more so I think some of the 'handwaving' of it dismiss possible issues.
I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.
Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.
I also wouldn't expect them to keep 10hp for the base if they made Con the key ability.
I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.
All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...
All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.
some people argue that they will, i dont get it either.
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All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.
That's a very good point. So I think I'm back to my suggestion of doing something to make CHA more appealing to a Summoner. A few thoughts (not all of course):
- The Eidolons AC seems to really be an issue, so why not give a bonus to AC based on the Summoner's CHA?
- Like many have said, a summoning font (though id rather this base off CON even if CHA is kept as the class ability)
- Bonus to Will saves based on CHA
- Bonus to Eidolon movement speed based on CHA (maybe 5ft for each +2 rounded down)
- Add to duration of focus spells (suggested elsewhere too by others)
- Heck, even bonus languages (there are those who are intuitive learners)
Not all of course, but a few ideas to give more reason to pump CHA
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All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.That's a very good point. So I think I'm back to my suggestion of doing something to make CHA more appealing to a Summoner.
That said, if CHA is kept, more incentive to use it is what we need. A few thoughts (not all of course):
- The Eidolons AC seems to really be an issue, so why not give a bonus to AC based on the Summoner's CHA?
- Like many have said, a summoning font (though id rather this base off CON even if CHA is kept as the class ability)
- Bonus to Will saves based on CHA
- Bonus to Eidolon movement speed based on CHA (maybe 5ft for each +2 rounded down)
- Add to duration of focus spells (suggested elsewhere too by others)
- Heck, even bonus languages (there are those who are intuitive learners)Not all of course, but a few ideas to give more reason to pump CHA
a font system would be nice for summoner i admit. really charisma needs a reason for being with summoner, it doesnt necesarily address their boring gameplay and the mundane nature of the eidolon itself. but currently what do you use cha for?
spell saves/to hit? why? get a bow, invest runes into it, said runes affect the eidolon's attacks, no need for attack cantrips. you have slower progression to your spell dc/hit and few slots, i see little incentive to go blast something.
demoralize, feint, bonmot, etc? you are maxing your turns action economy just doing your basic stuff and keeping your eidolon damage up to snuff. you dont really have room for these.
being a face? yes, but at this point, you have the same value on cha as the fighter. you take it for a concept, not because its important to the base character chassis.
i would like it if your CHA and class dc affected your eidolon special abilities like the dc for dragons breath or the beast eidolons roar.
I'm one to typically value Charisma pretty highly just for social skills, but most of my summoner concepts are pretty anti-social to begin with. Like, they rely on a summon *because* they don't trust other people.
I feel like Wisdom could be another option, since you use it for Medicine and patching up you/your summon is a pretty nice way to get around your low number of spells.
I'm in Favor of Changing the Key stat to Con, setting 'pet' abilities to run of of class DC's and divine font summoning ability based off of Cha. This way if you want to actually summon, focus on Cha. Want to beat things up? Ignore Cha and focus Con.
I'm one to typically value Charisma pretty highly just for social skills, but most of my summoner concepts are pretty anti-social to begin with. Like, they rely on a summon *because* they don't trust other people.
I feel like Wisdom could be another option, since you use it for Medicine and patching up you/your summon is a pretty nice way to get around your low number of spells.
Another option is to have various stat focuses/key stat: Int for a scholar, Wis for a healer, Con for a bruiser, Str for a figher, Cha for the summoner. For fun, give your 'pet' a bonus in the same stat and give a bonus related to the stat.
some people argue that they will, i dont get it either.All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.
Why wouldn't you? You're literally as good as other casters for 50% of your characters life.
Why wouldn't you? You're literally as good as other casters for 50% of your characters life.some people argue that they will, i dont get it either.All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.
because the other 50% you are not, and id like to retain use of my spell choices through all my levels. you are statistically less likely to make an impact than an actual spell caster by casting a save or attack spell, but just as likely to help as one with a support spell.
there is nothing stopping you from making the suboptimal hail mary choice in that other 50%. But given i can get 16 con and 16 dex and higher wisdom and experience no drop in character performance by ignoring my classes main attribute seems suspect of some revision.
I just think charisma should matter more to summoners if its going to be their main attribute. Thats all.
Why wouldn't you? You're literally as good as other casters for 50% of your characters life.
With what in combat actions? Is your casting beating what your "pet' would have done? If you're casting spells, you aren't buffing your 'pet and it's not attacking. I'd love to cast a thematic Summoning spell but where am I going to find 3 actions?
Out of combat, most spells don't care about your stat bonus unless they counteract something.
Why wouldn't you? You're literally as good as other casters for 50% of your characters life.some people argue that they will, i dont get it either.All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.because the other 50% you are not, and id like to retain use of my spell choices through all my levels. you are statistically less likely to make an impact than an actual spell caster by casting a save or attack spell, but just as likely to help as one with a support spell.
there is nothing stopping you from making the suboptimal hail mary choice in that other 50%. But given i can get 16 con and 16 dex and higher wisdom and experience no drop in character performance by ignoring my classes main attribute seems suspect of some revision.
I just think charisma should matter more to summoners if its going to be their main attribute. Thats all.
For literally half you're life you're at no disadvantage at all for offensive spells. You aren't locked into your spells from level to level, there's absolutely no reason not to use these while they're good.
Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself for half your character's life.
Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself for half your character's life.
How are you handicapping yourself if you use your spells for out of combat uses or buffs? For instance, is an invisibility sphere on your party not worth it?
Why wouldn't you? You're literally as good as other casters for 50% of your characters life.some people argue that they will, i dont get it either.All the Key Stat guarantees is that you start with a 10 in Cha which can match your social skills with your 'pet'. So, it's not an issue. If you aren't a Dragon type, what are you using Cha for? It's not like you're attacking with your spells...I'm hesitant to say any class should have CON as a key ability score, simply because it's already such an important stat. It's the most irreplaceable defensive stat.Con has an issue where it doesn't add to any skills. Putting it as the Summoner's key ability score just makes them more of a useless liability, because now they aren't even better at social stuff than their eidolon.because the other 50% you are not, and id like to retain use of my spell choices through all my levels. you are statistically less likely to make an impact than an actual spell caster by casting a save or attack spell, but just as likely to help as one with a support spell.
there is nothing stopping you from making the suboptimal hail mary choice in that other 50%. But given i can get 16 con and 16 dex and higher wisdom and experience no drop in character performance by ignoring my classes main attribute seems suspect of some revision.
I just think charisma should matter more to summoners if its going to be their main attribute. Thats all.
For literally half you're life you're at no disadvantage at all for offensive spells. You aren't locked into your spells from level to level, there's absolutely no reason not to use these while they're good.
Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself for half your character's life.
? your eidolon has martial progression to hit, you are handicapping yourself and your party by making the suboptimal choice of suspend your eidolon's actions in order to try to do damage with a limited number of spell slots.
and as i said, the other half of your life you are at a disadvantage, that means for 50% of my life, those attack spells i took are just not doing anything, and the other half, my action was better suited to either casting a support spell or controlling my eidolon.
at no point, do i see the benefit of aquiring attack or save spells for my summoner unless they are freely given to me. its just me playing suboptimally for what the class has going for it.
you are actually better off investing runes into a bow and using that if for some reason your eidolon cannot get to an enemy.
Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself for half your character's life.How are you handicapping yourself if you use your spells for out of combat uses or buffs? For instance, is an invisibility sphere on your party not worth it?
You're handicapping yourself by arbitrarily limiting your options. Invis Sphere is absolutely worth it.
So is Calm Emotions, in one of my four slots. It won't work every time... and there are going to be levels when it gets replaced... but half the time its sitting there, waiting to wreck encounters just like it would for a Cleric.
Otherwise, you're handicapping yourself for half your character's life.How are you handicapping yourself if you use your spells for out of combat uses or buffs? For instance, is an invisibility sphere on your party not worth it?You're handicapping yourself by arbitrarily limiting your options. Invis Sphere is absolutely worth it.
So is Calm Emotions, in one of my four slots. It won't work every time... and there are going to be levels when it gets replaced... but half the time its sitting there, waiting to wreck encounters just like it would for a Cleric.
the cleric doesnt have a featless martial to control and boost. you do. but this is a fairly useless conversation and wasn't really the crux of my point, you can use whatever spell you want, i just dont see the value in picking them when half my career they wont have a purpose.
rather, i just, as i said, want more reason to bump charisma for a summoner.
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The summoner really needs another option like "act together" or "tandem move" for a 2 action activity for "you cast a spell" and "your eidolon does something."
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The summoner really needs another option like "act together" or "tandem move" for a 2 action activity for "you cast a spell" and "your eidolon does something."
dont know what id name it but.
2 actions, you cast a spell and your eidolon attacks.
you are still subjected to map, so this would still fall into the category of an action economy fixer that stays within the lines of the games unspoken action economy rules.
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The summoner really needs another option like "act together" or "tandem move" for a 2 action activity for "you cast a spell" and "your eidolon does something."dont know what id name it but.
2 actions, you cast a spell and your eidolon attacks.
you are still subjected to map, so this would still fall into the category of an action economy fixer that stays within the lines of the games unspoken action economy rules.
Simple, just let "Act Together" work as part of an multi-action activity. Thus using it as part of that 2 action spell
the cleric doesnt have a featless martial to control and boost. you do. but this is a fairly useless conversation and wasn't really the crux of my point, you can use whatever spell you want, i just dont see the value in picking them when half my career they wont have a purpose.
rather, i just, as i said, want more reason to bump charisma for a summoner.
Be negative if you like, I'll be making informed decisions about when offensive spells are and are not worth it.
I personally love any justification I can get to take Charisma on a character, as its a stat that opens more doors in a game than any other.
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You're handicapping yourself by arbitrarily limiting your options. Invis Sphere is absolutely worth it.
I don't see it as a handicap as those slots can be filled with worthwhile spells and I have more stats that help both my and my 'pet's survival: I'm limiting myself but there isn't anything arbitrary about it. With the action bottleneck of the class, it's a logical conclusion to use them for a time when you don't have that bottleneck.
So is Calm Emotions, in one of my four slots. It won't work every time... and there are going to be levels when it gets replaced... but half the time its sitting there, waiting to wreck encounters just like it would for a Cleric.
Sure, but I can have Mirror Image "sitting there" in case my main body gets attacked or Resist Energy for my "pet" when he's going to fight fire creatures or...
I personally love any justification I can get to take Charisma on a character, as its a stat that opens more doors in a game than any other.
The thing is though, that I'm that way too. I LIKE cha characters for the comparability with innate spells and social skills: the thing is though, this class doesn't really have the actions to spare most times for those spells or skills actions. I just can't justify using the stat resources for JUST those 4 spell slots when I'd have to out of my way to figure out how to manage the actions to cast them. If you can, great but I can't.
Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
The point isn't that casters should be abe to avoid all damage at all.
Its that AC is not and never has been the best way to mitigate damage for casters.
Its that the Summoners exposure to attacks is not dramatically increased - certainly not doubled - by bringing an extra body to the field.
Its that unless your GM is doing some extremely hostile encounter design and metagaming, a shared hp pool is a minor liability, not a major one.
And its a liability with offsets. Not the least of which is the ability to more efficiently heal a Frontline combatant from safety, with more action friendly single action healing abilities (including Battle Medicine and Potions).
I think you actually agree with this, but it bears reiterating.
i agree, too many go one way or the other.
but realistically. how often do you have the leg up on an encounter? having the effectiveness of your class entirely dependant on if you have a nice dm, is not a resilient class.
games i play, ambushes in the night happen often, and the eidolon doesnt always catch it.
being pinched happens often, because outside of mindless enemies, even animals can have a grasp of basic hunting strategy.
fights rarely happen in basic square rooms, rather non symmetrical landscapes with line of sight breaks and various elevations. hiding out of line of sight has been a boon one fight, and a detriment another when there was a enemy behind that sightline i went around.
then, you introduce intelligent enemies. they see the sigil on the big scary monster, and see the sigil on teh weak dude not doing anything, given the world they live in, unless the summoner is considered a rarity that few people would...
I mean if your backline was regularly getting blitzed like this then being a 10hp caster is better than being a wizard or sorc bc you were apparently gonna get rushed anyway. And if you're dm targets you more than the rest of the backline just bc of your class choice he or she is a dick regardless of the enemies intelligence or your suspension of disbelief
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Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
The point isn't that casters should be abe to avoid all damage at all.
Its that AC is not and never has been the best way to mitigate damage for casters.
Its that the Summoners exposure to attacks is not dramatically increased - certainly not doubled - by bringing an extra body to the field.
Its that unless your GM is doing some extremely hostile encounter design and metagaming, a shared hp pool is a minor liability, not a major one.
And its a liability with offsets. Not the least of which is the ability to more efficiently heal a Frontline combatant from safety, with more action friendly single action healing abilities (including Battle Medicine and Potions).
I think you actually agree with this, but it bears reiterating.
i agree, too many go one way or the other.
but realistically. how often do you have the leg up on an encounter? having the effectiveness of your class entirely dependant on if you have a nice dm, is not a resilient class.
games i play, ambushes in the night happen often, and the eidolon doesnt always catch it.
being pinched happens often, because outside of mindless enemies, even animals can have a grasp of basic hunting strategy.
fights rarely happen in basic square rooms, rather non symmetrical landscapes with line of sight breaks and various elevations. hiding out of line of sight has been a boon one fight, and a detriment another when there was a enemy behind that sightline i went around.
then, you introduce intelligent enemies. they see the sigil on the big scary monster, and see the sigil on teh weak dude not doing anything, given the world they live in, unless the summoner is considered a
He's not targeting more because of my class choice. He's targeting me more because I am two bodies. It's just how it works.
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In my playing with a Summoner, my 1st turns consisted of casting Evolution Surge (usually movement) and then Act Together to each move wherever is best. Sometimes the charge goes next. Then most other turns would be: Act Together to cast Boost on eidolon while eidolon attacks the first time, then eidolon attacks a second time, and then I cast Reinforce. There were moves in there at times, but that's it. When the eidolon can hit easier and harder than I can, it is all up to it.
Unfortunately Charisma has been absolutely useless.
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Thank you for your input and I'm not one to argue points in forums as I don't want to belabor the point. That said, my friends and I must play our casters wrong then because we rarely end the adventuring day without getting hit for non-AOE damage at all.
The point isn't that casters should be abe to avoid all damage at all.
Its that AC is not and never has been the best way to mitigate damage for casters.
Its that the Summoners exposure to attacks is not dramatically increased - certainly not doubled - by bringing an extra body to the field.
Its that unless your GM is doing some extremely hostile encounter design and metagaming, a shared hp pool is a minor liability, not a major one.
And its a liability with offsets. Not the least of which is the ability to more efficiently heal a Frontline combatant from safety, with more action friendly single action healing abilities (including Battle Medicine and Potions).
I think you actually agree with this, but it bears reiterating.
i agree, too many go one way or the other.
but realistically. how often do you have the leg up on an encounter? having the effectiveness of your class entirely dependant on if you have a nice dm, is not a resilient class.
games i play, ambushes in the night happen often, and the eidolon doesnt always catch it.
being pinched happens often, because outside of mindless enemies, even animals can have a grasp of basic hunting strategy.
fights rarely happen in basic square rooms, rather non symmetrical landscapes with line of sight breaks and various elevations. hiding out of line of sight has been a boon one fight, and a detriment another when there was a enemy behind that sightline i went around.
then, you introduce intelligent enemies. they see the sigil on the big scary monster, and see the sigil on teh weak dude not doing anything, given the world they live in,
I'm talking about your comment regarding intelligent enemies acting on you and the eidelon sharing a sigil to focus the caster to effectively negate 2 bodies. If your dm is targeting your caster to the exclusion of the rest of the backline bc of "enemy intelligence" I'd stop playing with a dm that actively doesn't want me to play summoner. That's equivalent to your dm saying "f!$& you and f!+~ your class"
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In my playing with a Summoner, my 1st turns consisted of casting Evolution Surge (usually movement) and then Act Together to each move wherever is best. Sometimes the charge goes next. Then most other turns would be: Act Together to cast Boost on eidolon while eidolon attacks the first time, then eidolon attacks a second time, and then I cast Reinforce. There were moves in there at times, but that's it. When the eidolon can hit easier and harder than I can, it is all up to it.
Unfortunately Charisma has been absolutely useless.
This is similar to how my two test battle situations went. I'm playing a 5 hour session tomorrow to see if things go differently in the longer game...but I doubt it. CHA just isn't something that is seeing much use in the current iteration of the Summoner.
I don't see how it is smackdown. It doesn't even take much intelligence to realize that the big monster and the guy in robes are working in tandem with the big glowing shared symbol you cannot hide.
Instead it's actually meta gaming to ignore this, since the eidolon may look imposing it's actually pretty weak compared to martials and it's often a better use of time to deal with the more impactful classes first.
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I don't see how it is smackdown. It doesn't even take much intelligence to realize that the big monster and the guy in robes are working in tandem with the big glowing shared symbol you cannot hide.
Instead it's actually meta gaming to ignore this, since the eidolon may look imposing it's actually pretty weak compared to martials and it's often a better use of time to deal with the more impactful classes first.
Sure, they're clearly connected. 'Connected' and 'hurting one hurts the other' are very different things.
Sure, they're clearly connected. 'Connected' and 'hurting one hurts the other' are very different things.I don't see how it is smackdown. It doesn't even take much intelligence to realize that the big monster and the guy in robes are working in tandem with the big glowing shared symbol you cannot hide.
Instead it's actually meta gaming to ignore this, since the eidolon may look imposing it's actually pretty weak compared to martials and it's often a better use of time to deal with the more impactful classes first.
I'm honestly not following what you are trying to say here.
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I'm honestly not following what you are trying to say here.Sure, they're clearly connected. 'Connected' and 'hurting one hurts the other' are very different things.I don't see how it is smackdown. It doesn't even take much intelligence to realize that the big monster and the guy in robes are working in tandem with the big glowing shared symbol you cannot hide.
Instead it's actually meta gaming to ignore this, since the eidolon may look imposing it's actually pretty weak compared to martials and it's often a better use of time to deal with the more impactful classes first.
He's saying there's no reason to think that two beings with matching tattoos who think alike are anything but magically connected. Enemies magically divining that hurting one hurts the other is completely unreasonable for the majority of foes the players will encounter.
Seriously, if you are suffering greatly by this mechanic its because your GM is out to get you. Its not a huge issue.
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I'm honestly not following what you are trying to say here.
I mean that 'That guy and the dragon are clearly a team.' is a reasonable conclusion for people to draw in-universe. Absent spending actions on Recall Knowledge, knowing anything beyond that is not such a reasonable conclusion.
Knowing that the caster and the dragon are a team is relevant, but does not necessarily lead to targeting members of the team at the expense of targeting other PCs.
I mean, two PCs wearing identical armor with a distinctive crest on it are also clearly connected, but I don't think they're gonna get targeted more than PCs who aren't wearing that.
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I'm honestly not following what you are trying to say here.Sure, they're clearly connected. 'Connected' and 'hurting one hurts the other' are very different things.I don't see how it is smackdown. It doesn't even take much intelligence to realize that the big monster and the guy in robes are working in tandem with the big glowing shared symbol you cannot hide.
Instead it's actually meta gaming to ignore this, since the eidolon may look imposing it's actually pretty weak compared to martials and it's often a better use of time to deal with the more impactful classes first.
He's saying there's no reason to think that two beings with matching tattoos who think alike are anything but magically connected. Enemies magically divining that hurting one hurts the other is completely unreasonable for the majority of foes the players will encounter.
Seriously, if you are suffering greatly by this mechanic its because your GM is out to get you. Its not a huge issue.
Did I say they'd magically know that hurting one hurts the other? I didn't think I did.
They'd treat him as a summoner. What happens to a summoner's summons when you go unconcious. They wink out. They don't have to make any strenuous thought precesses.
But, this begs the question. Can a intelligent being not know you were a fighter? Or a barbarian? Or a summoner? Is the summoner so rare that it's a very hard DC recall knowledge? Or is it just another class that people of golarian know very much about, and intelligent beings who find themselves on the wrong side of heroes probably needs to know these things if they want to survive.
Nothing I've said here seems to be singling out the summoner. Everything is applicable to any class outside of the glowing unhideable symbol they share. Summoner just naturally suffers the most from happenstance as well as intelligent enemies.
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It seems incredibly clear to me that a summoner will take twice as many attacks on average (not including the summoner dropping and not being attacked, assuming front and back line are targeted equally), that doesn't take an effort on the GMs part to focus fire.
Now as for spells, to me the printed offensive spells are generally better than buffs (some exceptions like heal at level 1), so investing in cha let's you select better spells. And casting a high level spell is easily better than the eidolon attacking (and the eidolon can still get off their best attack even when you cast a spell)
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Did I say they'd magically know that hurting one hurts the other? I didn't think I did.
No, but you implied that it would result in more people targeting them.
They'd treat him as a summoner. What happens to a summoner's summons when you go unconcious. They wink out. They don't have to make any strenuous thought precesses.
Knowing this requires a Recall Knowledge check. Specifically, either Society since the Summoner is Humanoid, or one for the particular Tradition in question. If the creature has that skill (or tries untrained), and spends an action to make the check, then they absolutely get this info.
Most creatures will not do this, either due to inability (many creatures lack the intelligence to make such checks reliably...the wolves you are fighting will fail...probably so will the ogres) or lack of desire to do so.
But, this begs the question. Can a intelligent being not know you were a fighter? Or a barbarian? Or a summoner? Is the summoner so rare that it's a very hard DC recall knowledge? Or is it just another class that people of golarian know very much about, and intelligent beings who find themselves on the wrong side of heroes probably needs to know these things if they want to survive.
They need to make a level appropriate check to tell the difference between a Fighter and a Barbarian, yes. That's what the Skills in a monster's stat block are for. To make checks like this.
Nothing I've said here seems to be singling out the summoner. Everything is applicable to any class outside of the glowing unhideable symbol they share. Summoner just naturally suffers the most from happenstance as well as intelligent enemies.
I dunno. If we're talking intelligent enemies making checks to know PC Classes, they'll know not to bother attacking the Eidolon because the Summoner is the softer target. Which is a down side, sure, but just puts them on par with other casters except with more HP, and even then only if the enemy prioritizes 'kill the Summoner' over 'kill the healer'...which is often, though by no means always, a weird choice for an intelligent enemy to make.
Really, when fighting truly intelligent enemies, the most effective PC is probably gonna be the one targeted regardless of Class, and is gonna come in for focused fire. Summoners are weaker to this than martials (due to lower AC), but more resilient to it than most casters (due to higher HP), and their Eidolon has little to do with how often this kind of targeting will happen.