Per the rules, you can only have one assistant helping as you describe in a more substantive way than Aid Another. Even then the assistant needs to have a specific feat, which as a prerequisite requires them to also have at least one magic item creation feat.
So now your first-level character trying to save a buck on their (non-masterwork!) armor is also seeking out and paying wages to specialized ~casters~ (because of COURSE you need casters) in order to get your mundane armor in "only" five months. Woohoo.
I see no rules limiting the number of assistants, other than common sense.
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
A suit of full plate is made up of many pieces that can be worked on all at the same time.
The feat Cooperative Crafting gives specific benefits, no "Aid Another" roll and doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
As I pointed out earlier, some of those armor shops had a fairly large number of workers in them, all working cooperatively.
I thought the aid another dc was always 10, regardless of action.
It is.
Google how long it takes to craft chain mail or full plate.
Out of a material that does not exist?
Google how long it takes to craft chain mail or full plate.Out of a material that does not exist?
Well if we go by marvel, adamantine requires the most advance super sci-fi science to work. While true adamantine cannot be worked.
Therefore it is perfectly reasonable that no mundane crafter should be able to make adamantine anything in a fantasy setting. So the fact that you can craft it at all is impressive.
Adamantine =/= Adamantium.
I thought the aid another dc was always 10, regardless of action.It is.
Sorry, I was thinking about the rule that you can't take aid another if you couldn't succeed yourself, and for some reason my brain kind of turned that into the aid-another being vs the DC...I dunno, it was stupid. ^~^"
Okay, in that case, +6 from the other master smiths (can't fail) or a lesser average value from apprentices. The point still remains that it takes forever and a day.
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"adamant", the root word for our uber metals, is actually an ancient form of saying 'diamond', as diamond was praised for its incredible hardness and strength. The chains that bind ancient monsters in Greek mythology are forged of adamant by Hephaestus.
Adamantine in PF is a legendary metal which may or may not only come from fallen stars (and crashed spaceships).
Marvel Adamantium is a completely artificial metal made from mixing certain resins together and letting them cool into the final metal. And Dargonite punches right through it, heh!
Uru is the Norse supermetal. Thor's hammer is made from uru.
I'm not sure of the names of any other uber metals from mythology, but I'm sure there are some.
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I don't believe the cost of masterwork is calculated into the cost of raw materials, but I could be mistaken.
masterwork is a denotion of skill, not of substance. It's simply a normal item made really, really well. So, yes, a masterwork item could be made from substandard items with superlative skill, and a normal item made from superior items with meh skill. They might be priced the same, but the masterwork item will be acknowledged as being 'better'.
==Aelryinth
First off, a suit of plate mail literally represents 1000s of man hours in the real world, and when working a material that is twice as hard and requires a fire twice as hot just increases the man hours exponentially.
Using just one helper is pants on head retarded, use the piece mail armor making rules to have one team working on the arms, one team working on the legs and one working on the body.
As for using fabricate, how many people out there capable of casting the spell do you think there are? In Inner Sea Magic there is a list of the magical luminaries of Golarion and maybe 6 of them can cast the spell. Of those how many genuinely have the skill ranks to fill in the specialized knowledge required to make weapons and armor of quality? Combine this with the fact that guilds exist to protect their members interests and Wizards suck at fort saves and soaking sneak attacks and you have a pretty clear picture why half the commoners in the world are not out of work.
Marvel Adamantium is a completely artificial metal made from mixing certain resins together and letting them cool into the final metal. And Dargonite punches right through it, heh!
Not entirely true. There is a difference between adamantium and true adamantium. My dad ended up doing a lot of research on the topic after the recent wolverine movies.
Sean, two feedback points which I hope might be of use even if they only become so when you get around to making a new edition.
It's not broken (I described it as bent-but-not-broken). It's just that at higher levels, it's not practical.
For what it's worth, I've relatively frequently tried to make characters with Craft ranks (mostly in 3.5, a couple times in Pathfinder though I've mostly learned my lesson), and I have never been able to accomplish anything even minimally fun with the rule as written, to the point where I generally end up either asking for a house rule, asking for a retrain, or otherwise abandoning the effort. Due to the very issue of time.
It's broken for me. This may be because, while it may be different from a world design perspective, from a player's point of view, totally impractical is more or less the same thing as broken. I can't use a broken system to have fun with legendary smithing scenes, and I can't use an impractical system to do it, so we end up in the same place.
Google how long it takes to craft chain mail or full plate.
If you ever write new Craft rules, my own personal expectations tend to diverge fairly quickly from this.
If I were to be playing a dwarven blacksmith who wanted to craft up some cool stuff, and my dwarven blacksmith has 20 ranks in Craft, what I have in my heart is Hephaistos crafting the armor of Achilles, or any other of the great many variations on that theme of the legendary smith forging heroic arms.
That didn't take years. Or months. Or even weeks. It took from dusk till rosy-fingered Dawn.
For craftsmen on the cusp of divine skill, that's the kind of awesome crafting montage I want to see, not bringing the campaign to a grinding halt for 42 weeks or whatever.
So yes, I'd enjoy it if Pathfinder 2.0 included practical legendary craftsmanship, and I'd like it even more if such were not only wizards need apply. In the rules as written, even a mythic character with Mythic Craft (so a smith who can actually equal Hephaistos' skill, not just approach it) can't achieve anywhere near this sort of useful time frame for crafting his adamantine full plate, since Mythic Craft only cuts in half a period that is dozens of times too long.
And that's just for purely functional arms. If I want to add, say, a legendary artwork object engraved on the front of my adamantine shield for thousands of gp more, just forget about it.
(BTW, Mythic Craft probably would have represented a great opportunity for rules simplification by simply replacing the Craft times entirely with practical (because Mythic) and simple (because simple!) ones, instead of just adding a new multiplication step into the already complicated equation of currency unit conversions, Craft check results divided by time, and whatever).
As for using fabricate, how many people out there capable of casting the spell do you think there are?
For a 5th level spell? Probably not many. On the other hand, quiet a few adventurers might. Wizards could have plenty of ranks in craft too, and are intelligence based. Always come back to wizards.
Could have the BBEBG have like one or two tenth level wizards, casting fabricate every day to arm up his entire army, equiping them all with massive amounts of gear. Like two tenth level wizards I think get 1 or 2 5th level spells per day.
If I were to be playing a dwarven blacksmith who wanted to craft up some cool stuff, and my dwarven blacksmith has 20 ranks in Craft, what I have in my heart is Hephaistos crafting the armor of Achilles, or any other of the great many variations on that theme of the legendary smith forging heroic arms.That didn't take years. Or months. Or even weeks. It took from dusk till rosy-fingered Dawn.
For craftsmen on the cusp of divine skill, that's the kind of awesome crafting montage I want to see, not bringing the campaign to a grinding halt for 42 weeks or whatever.
20th level is on the cusp of divine? Maybe, but keep in mind that Hephaestus would be full-blown divine with a magical forge and automatons he created to do tasks for him.
I'd also mention that a montage is a way of compressing time. The character wants to craft something meaningful so the party shifts into montage mode as he works and everybody else engages in their own montages of stuff to do.
If you really need to get crafting done quickly as an element of the narrative, then use the magic rules. Back in the legends of the iron age, particularly among Celts, blacksmiths were pretty freaking magical. Or handwave the details since the character has made sufficient investment to be considered legendary (and 20 ranks of anything as a skill should be considered legendary) - focusing on the details of skill rolls and time is simply unnecessary.
In other words, as a whole, have the narrative style boss the rules around, not the other way around. If you want the faster, drama-laden narrative, handwave the details. If you want a grittier, more detail-oriented narrative, use the crafting duration.
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A montage begins. The wizard crafts a completely new set of magical gear for every single member of the party. The paladin heads off to Cheliax and smites every single villain there, ultimately turning it into a good nation of peace. The crafter manages to get halfway through crafting one mithral fullplate. The orc dies of old age.
I think SKR has a good point. Errata is risky business.
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If you don't care about crafting realism, and you're not playing PFS (where you can't really craft anyway), just hand-wave it. Crafting takes 1 round. Done.Very few people care about crafting realism. They are primarily interested in how the game plays. People do not play pathfinder, a game about travelling around the world killing bad guys for loot/xp for realism.
Seriously, i don't know why you don't understand this simple concept.
Which then ventures into house rule territory and you start wondering why the GM has to implement house rules to fix every broken thing about pathfinder instead of the designers issueing erratas that take maybe a few minutes each to do.
I wonder what pathfinder would be like now if you made plate mail wearing characters immune to slashing damage (its realistic! google it! nobody killed knights in full plate with swords!). And when people point out that it makes combat broken once someone wearing full plate enters the fray...you tell them to house rule it so that full plate doesnt confer immunity to slashing damage.
Because if every "broken" rule were errataed to what one person thinks is "unbroken," they would be "broken" to someone else.
You believe that crafting is too slow, I think that it is too fast. Which way should they errata it?
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Simple answer is they do a poll of the various errata options they want to implement. Then take whichever on gets more than 70% of people wanting it. Errata done. Its impossible to do errata with 100% of the fans agreeing. You take the option the majority agree with. Does that don't can use whatever they like. It's errata for a rpg not trying to shutdown a out of control nuclear reactor. It's not a easy process. Nor that hard either.
Simple answer is they do a poll of the various errata options they want to implement. Then take whichever on gets more than 70% of people wanting it. Errata done. Its impossible to do errata with 100% of the fans agreeing. You take the option the majority agree with. Does that don't can use whatever they like. It's errata for a rpg not trying to shutdown a out of control nuclear reactor. It's not a easy process. Nor that hard either.
Whom are you going to poll? The miniscule percentage of players that post here? The larger, but still small, percentage of players that have Paizo accounts? PFS members? Non PFS members? Plus no matter how rules are changed, there will be a group out there that will house rule it to what they want.
Simple answer is they do a poll of the various errata options they want to implement. Then take whichever on gets more than 70% of people wanting it. Errata done. Its impossible to do errata with 100% of the fans agreeing. You take the option the majority agree with. Does that don't can use whatever they like. It's errata for a rpg not trying to shutdown a out of control nuclear reactor. It's not a easy process. Nor that hard either.Whom are you going to poll? The miniscule percentage of players that post here? The larger, but still small, percentage of players that have Paizo accounts? PFS members? Non PFS members? Plus no matter how rules are changed, there will be a group out there that will house rule it to what they want.
Personally, I prefer the designers of a game to make that decision. It's their "baby", and having to bend to customer pressure like that eventually results in a game designed by committee to appeal to the largest sector of the mass market. That usually just results in a bland, lackluster product that doesn't really work for anyone, and a bunch of games that all feel the same because they're trying to hit a specific majority-appeal formula - just like the majority of computer game releases.
Designers make the game and decide who their target audience is. Players look at a game and decide whether they like it or not. Errata needs to be driven by designer vision, not player pressure. I'd hate to see a game I bought because I enjoyed its style and approach get mutated into an abomination because the designers let the customers (all of whom have their own beliefs about their preferences) lead the design process.
Considering you seem to be in the minority here...
The key word being "here", in this thread. Agree or disagree with other posters, but don't make the mistake of thinking this thread, or any other, represents an accurate, scientific, poll. They don't. Imo, I doubt most people find the current craft rules to be all that important much less "good" or "bad". The people who do have a problem with the craft rules are split over many aspects of it. That's about all that can be, accurately, inferred about it.
Simple answer is they do a poll of the various errata options they want to implement. Then take whichever on gets more than 70% of people wanting it. Errata done. Its impossible to do errata with 100% of the fans agreeing. You take the option the majority agree with. Does that don't can use whatever they like. It's errata for a rpg not trying to shutdown a out of control nuclear reactor. It's not a easy process. Nor that hard either.
And as for "polling" people over errata... I don't mind crowd-funded games, I don't think crowd-designed is a good idea. If I don't like something in a game, and feel strongly enough about that particular piece of rules, I can house rule with the best of them. I don't really "need" the opinions of anybody I don't game with. My 2 cp.
I just found a stupid trick to crafting. Using the OP's example of the L10 crafting fast <AKA the player with a +22 Craft skill>, every unskilled laborer can autoassist the craft by taking a 10 (+2 to the check). The unskilled laborer costs 1 silver / day and provides (2x29) 58 silver / day worth of work (when sold at half value: 29 silver / day worth of work). When the item is sold at half value, each worker provides a profit margin of 28 silver per day. If this same expert or player hires 10 unskilled laborers (1 gold per day), they would complete 29 gold per day worth of work, yielding 28 gold profit per day.
*The DC of this item was 29. As long as the Craft DC is above 0.5, hiring unskilled laborers yields profit.
To make the adamantine plate mail make sense, imagine hiring 100 unskilled laborers - each laborer is working on a different part of the process: whether that is gathering fresh water, heating up the metal, making sure the tools are pristine, making sure the area is clean to work, bringing food for the various people working, etc. 100 unskilled laborers assisting you provide a +200 to your check of 22. (the roll per day yields faster crafting results btw)
What previously took you 93 weeks to complete now takes 25 days.
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I just found a stupid trick to crafting. Using the OP's example of the L10 crafting fast <AKA the player with a +22 Craft skill>, every unskilled laborer can autoassist the craft by taking a 10 (+2 to the check). The unskilled laborer costs 1 silver / day and provides (2x29) 58 silver / day worth of work (when sold at half value: 29 silver / day worth of work). When the item is sold at half value, each worker provides a profit margin of 28 silver per day. If this same expert or player hires 10 unskilled laborers (1 gold per day), they would complete 29 gold per day worth of work, yielding 28 gold profit per day.
*The DC of this item was 29. As long as the Craft DC is above 0.5, hiring unskilled laborers yields profit.
To make the adamantine plate mail make sense, imagine hiring 100 unskilled laborers - each laborer is working on a different part of the process: whether that is gathering fresh water, heating up the metal, making sure the tools are pristine, making sure the area is clean to work, bringing food for the various people working, etc. 100 unskilled laborers assisting you provide a +200 to your check of 22. (the roll per day yields faster crafting results btw)
What previously took you 93 weeks to complete now takes 25 days.
You can't Take 10 when using the Aid another action.
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
And a unskilled worker has problems using the Aid Another acttion, as it way:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.
As any crafting DC higher than 20 is difficult to achieve for a unskilled worker it is difficult for him to help with the more difficult projects.
- * -
To speed up crafting a bit I allow the player to set the DC to any value they want, as long as the DC is on par or higher than the DC required by the rules.
That way the very skilled worker is faster than the low skilled one.
So far, I've seen three good ideas to make Craft useable for mundane folk
1. Make the process in gold pieces instead of silver
2. Allow them to set the DC to whatever they want rather than only being able to do a flat +10 for rushed
3. Give Craft a bonus at a certain amount of ranks, for example, if you have 5 ranks, you can now craft 25% faster, at 10 it becomes 50%, 15 becomes 75% and that's the hard limit.
Even just adding 2 out of those 3 makes crafting feasible