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Also, I think the martial artist needs another footnote. Totally correct with stumbling stance. However a human rogue or one with adopted human can grab multitalented at 9th for monk. Then flurry at 10th. Now a scoundrel rogue gets his feint at a bonus and 2 backstab trait agile finesse attacks all for 1 action. I think it's definitely a blue archetype for a rogue with access to multitalented. And the question is why not just take monk? Stumbling feint is a 12th lvl feat there not an 8th.
My current character is similar. Fencer swashbuckler that worships Cayden Cailean with a dazzling buckler and a mug in one hand punches in the other.
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Nyhme wrote: Love the guide. One thing I think you missed in considering the value of arcane sense. It's detect magic as an innate arcane spell. That's trained in the arcane tradition. So at 1st lvl(rogue, investigator or anyone taking one of the backgrounds giving it) you can use arcane scrolls, wands etc and don't need trick magic item.
Consider an aasimar elf eldritch trickster bard. 3rd lvl he is trained in every spellcasting tradition(bard- occult, halo-divine, arcane sense- arcane wildborn magic - primal). 3rd level and trick magic item is obsolete.
Totally love the guide though.
I am not following your logic. Why do you think that Arcane Sense gives you the ability to use scrolls and wands? By its terms it gives you a single spell, detect magic.
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Nyhme wrote: Also, I think the martial artist needs another footnote. Totally correct with stumbling stance. However a human rogue or one with adopted human can grab multitalented at 9th for monk. Then flurry at 10th. Now a scoundrel rogue gets his feint at a bonus and 2 backstab trait agile finesse attacks all for 1 action. I think it's definitely a blue archetype for a rogue with access to multitalented. And the question is why not just take monk? Stumbling feint is a 12th lvl feat there not an 8th. Yeah, that's a good note. I'll add something in. In fact, I like it so much I'm doing another Rogue/Martial Artist build using that.
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Tarondor wrote: Nyhme wrote: Also, I think the martial artist needs another footnote. Totally correct with stumbling stance. However a human rogue or one with adopted human can grab multitalented at 9th for monk. Then flurry at 10th. Now a scoundrel rogue gets his feint at a bonus and 2 backstab trait agile finesse attacks all for 1 action. I think it's definitely a blue archetype for a rogue with access to multitalented. And the question is why not just take monk? Stumbling feint is a 12th lvl feat there not an 8th. Yeah, that's a good note. I'll add something in. In fact, I like it so much I'm doing another Rogue/Martial Artist build using that. It's such a gross build. 1 action you're making target flat footed to the whole groups melee attacks and debuffing his reflex and perception, at 12th lvl your now also making it so he gets no reactions and getting 2 attacks. And you still have 2 actions. Cast an electric arc and flip the bird knowing he won't have an AoO.
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Tarondor wrote: Nyhme wrote: Love the guide. One thing I think you missed in considering the value of arcane sense. It's detect magic as an innate arcane spell. That's trained in the arcane tradition. So at 1st lvl(rogue, investigator or anyone taking one of the backgrounds giving it) you can use arcane scrolls, wands etc and don't need trick magic item.
Consider an aasimar elf eldritch trickster bard. 3rd lvl he is trained in every spellcasting tradition(bard- occult, halo-divine, arcane sense- arcane wildborn magic - primal). 3rd level and trick magic item is obsolete.
Totally love the guide though.
I am not following your logic. Why do you think that Arcane Sense gives you the ability to use scrolls and wands? By its terms it gives you a single spell, detect magic. Just double checked. The trained in the arcane tradition only affects that innate spell. So yea, retract that arcane sense is meh.
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Also consider mauler dedication for ruffian rogue with longspear or scoundrel that grabbed whip claw.
Harder they fall, shove down and shoving sweep. Your reaction suddenly becomes Gandalf screaming "you shall not pass". And possibly dealing sneak damage. Or skip Harder they fall for knockdown and control the field. If you late add barbarian say 9th multitalented then work in brutal bully you get to add strength to damage twice.
Consider oread human ruffian rogue. 2nd mauler, 3rd unconventional weaponry whip claw, 4th harder they fall, 5th the oread rock break thing, 6th shove down, 8th shoving sweep, 8th lvl you're master in athletics. Oread ability 1 action, step back 2nd action, use hampering 3rd action. Now you've got 5 squares in your reach that can't be stepped into and a reaction ready to send them flying if they try to approach the ranged guys behind you. 9th barbarian from multitalent, 10th sudden charge from barbarian, 12th giant stature since you're giant instinct. Now you're large with a reach weapon and a crazy reaction and mo size creature you can't shove and trip.
Or maybe you also take knockdown at 10th and preparation at 12th so you can and stay down at 14th. Now you trip them they try to stand and you say no with your preparation reaction. And a 2nd baddy comes in and you and you have shoving sweep ready for him. Its amazing control.
Alternatively, knockdown, harder they fall, whatever at 8th, improved knockdown. Now trip from knockdown auto crits so weapon damage plus sneak twice and a d6 plus they're prone.
Nyhme wrote: Also consider mauler dedication for ruffian rogue with longspear or scoundrel that grabbed whip claw.
Harder they fall, shove down and shoving sweep. Your reaction suddenly becomes Gandalf screaming "you shall not pass". And possibly dealing sneak damage. Or skip Harder they fall for knockdown and control the field. If you late add barbarian say 9th multitalented then work in brutal bully you get to add strength to damage twice.
Consider oread human ruffian rogue. 2nd mauler, 3rd unconventional weaponry whip claw, 4th harder they fall, 5th the oread rock break thing, 6th shove down, 8th shoving sweep, 8th lvl you're master in athletics. Oread ability 1 action, step back 2nd action, use hampering 3rd action. Now you've got 5 squares in your reach that can't be stepped into and a reaction ready to send them flying if they try to approach the ranged guys behind you. 9th barbarian from multitalent, 10th sudden charge from barbarian, 12th giant stature since you're giant instinct. Now you're large with a reach weapon and a crazy reaction and mo size creature you can't shove and trip.
Or maybe you also take knockdown at 10th and preparation at 12th so you can and stay down at 14th. Now you trip them they try to stand and you say no with your preparation reaction. And a 2nd baddy comes in and you and you have shoving sweep ready for him. Its amazing control.
Alternatively, knockdown, harder they fall, whatever at 8th, improved knockdown. Now trip from knockdown auto crits so weapon damage plus sneak twice and a d6 plus they're prone.
Isn't better for a rogue to just rely on 2 strikes ( twin fein for example ) per round?
Especially by lvl 12, because of preparation, being able to hit twice during your turn and twice out of your turn should be the perfect deal ( if you are quickened you'd probably forgo twin feint for 2x strike ).
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HumbleGamer wrote: Nyhme wrote: Also consider mauler dedication for ruffian rogue with longspear or scoundrel that grabbed whip claw.
Harder they fall, shove down and shoving sweep. Your reaction suddenly becomes Gandalf screaming "you shall not pass". And possibly dealing sneak damage. Or skip Harder they fall for knockdown and control the field. If you late add barbarian say 9th multitalented then work in brutal bully you get to add strength to damage twice.
Consider oread human ruffian rogue. 2nd mauler, 3rd unconventional weaponry whip claw, 4th harder they fall, 5th the oread rock break thing, 6th shove down, 8th shoving sweep, 8th lvl you're master in athletics. Oread ability 1 action, step back 2nd action, use hampering 3rd action. Now you've got 5 squares in your reach that can't be stepped into and a reaction ready to send them flying if they try to approach the ranged guys behind you. 9th barbarian from multitalent, 10th sudden charge from barbarian, 12th giant stature since you're giant instinct. Now you're large with a reach weapon and a crazy reaction and mo size creature you can't shove and trip.
Or maybe you also take knockdown at 10th and preparation at 12th so you can and stay down at 14th. Now you trip them they try to stand and you say no with your preparation reaction. And a 2nd baddy comes in and you and you have shoving sweep ready for him. Its amazing control.
Alternatively, knockdown, harder they fall, whatever at 8th, improved knockdown. Now trip from knockdown auto crits so weapon damage plus sneak twice and a d6 plus they're prone.
Isn't better for a rogue to just rely on 2 strikes ( twin fein for example ) per round?
Especially by lvl 12, because of preparation, being able to hit twice during your turn and twice out of your turn should be the perfect deal ( if you are quickened you'd probably forgo twin feint for 2x strike ). Against low level targets, that would be a higher damage output. But at 7th lvl you're master in athletics. So twin feint expert then expert minus 4. Knockdown expert trip at full master Against reflex which I can't think of anything that doesn't have a lower reflex than ac. You're chance to crit on the trip will typically be higher than to land the second attack.
Also consider you get the prone condition on the target. In the game of managing actions and debuffing inflicting prone is awesome.
Nyhme wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Nyhme wrote: Also consider mauler dedication for ruffian rogue with longspear or scoundrel that grabbed whip claw.
Harder they fall, shove down and shoving sweep. Your reaction suddenly becomes Gandalf screaming "you shall not pass". And possibly dealing sneak damage. Or skip Harder they fall for knockdown and control the field. If you late add barbarian say 9th multitalented then work in brutal bully you get to add strength to damage twice.
Consider oread human ruffian rogue. 2nd mauler, 3rd unconventional weaponry whip claw, 4th harder they fall, 5th the oread rock break thing, 6th shove down, 8th shoving sweep, 8th lvl you're master in athletics. Oread ability 1 action, step back 2nd action, use hampering 3rd action. Now you've got 5 squares in your reach that can't be stepped into and a reaction ready to send them flying if they try to approach the ranged guys behind you. 9th barbarian from multitalent, 10th sudden charge from barbarian, 12th giant stature since you're giant instinct. Now you're large with a reach weapon and a crazy reaction and mo size creature you can't shove and trip.
Or maybe you also take knockdown at 10th and preparation at 12th so you can and stay down at 14th. Now you trip them they try to stand and you say no with your preparation reaction. And a 2nd baddy comes in and you and you have shoving sweep ready for him. Its amazing control.
Alternatively, knockdown, harder they fall, whatever at 8th, improved knockdown. Now trip from knockdown auto crits so weapon damage plus sneak twice and a d6 plus they're prone.
Isn't better for a rogue to just rely on 2 strikes ( twin fein for example ) per round?
Especially by lvl 12, because of preparation, being able to hit twice during your turn and twice out of your turn should be the perfect deal ( if you are quickened you'd probably forgo twin feint for 2x strike ). Against low level targets, that would be a higher damage output. But at 7th lvl you're master in athletics. So... Nice analysis!
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HumbleGamer wrote: Nyhme wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Nyhme wrote: Also consider mauler dedication for ruffian rogue with longspear or scoundrel that grabbed whip claw.
Harder they fall, shove down and shoving sweep. Your reaction suddenly becomes Gandalf screaming "you shall not pass". And possibly dealing sneak damage. Or skip Harder they fall for knockdown and control the field. If you late add barbarian say 9th multitalented then work in brutal bully you get to add strength to damage twice.
Consider oread human ruffian rogue. 2nd mauler, 3rd unconventional weaponry whip claw, 4th harder they fall, 5th the oread rock break thing, 6th shove down, 8th shoving sweep, 8th lvl you're master in athletics. Oread ability 1 action, step back 2nd action, use hampering 3rd action. Now you've got 5 squares in your reach that can't be stepped into and a reaction ready to send them flying if they try to approach the ranged guys behind you. 9th barbarian from multitalent, 10th sudden charge from barbarian, 12th giant stature since you're giant instinct. Now you're large with a reach weapon and a crazy reaction and mo size creature you can't shove and trip.
Or maybe you also take knockdown at 10th and preparation at 12th so you can and stay down at 14th. Now you trip them they try to stand and you say no with your preparation reaction. And a 2nd baddy comes in and you and you have shoving sweep ready for him. Its amazing control.
Alternatively, knockdown, harder they fall, whatever at 8th, improved knockdown. Now trip from knockdown auto crits so weapon damage plus sneak twice and a d6 plus they're prone.
Isn't better for a rogue to just rely on 2 strikes ( twin fein for example ) per round?
Especially by lvl 12, because of preparation, being able to hit twice during your turn and twice out of your turn should be the perfect deal ( if you are quickened you'd probably forgo twin feint for 2x strike ). Against low level targets, that would be a higher damage output. But at 7th lvl you're ... Also, I'm so not a fan of twin feint. Dual weapon warrior at 2nd gives double slice. Even for a rogue I think double slice is the better feat. Yes you only get sneak damage once. But consider this twin feint is strike/strike -4. Double slice is strike/strike. So second attack is landing 20% more frequently and criting more if your bonus is high enough to have you needing a 9 or less. Twin feint is only better when both land. Double slice both hit ok sneak once. But say one crits and one hits you choose which gets precision so crit sneak. Also you get to add everything for overcoming damage reduction.
Now consider a thief rogue. Debilitating strike says strike hits flat footed and deals damage not sneak attack just damage. So say you crit one hit the other. Precise debilition you can apply to the regular hit and then add your 2d6 from Precise debilitation to the crit.
Additionally if you're grabbing filtchers forks then with dual thrower you can double slice at range. Add in Precise debilition being able to keep them flat footed and now you're keeping them flat footed at range no need to create a distraction. Plus super later on 1 failure and one critical failure you still get a hit to do sneak damage.
Also dual weapon warrior gives you the higher level dual weapon feats that fighter dedication wouldn't allow. Like two weapon flurry. So at 16th lvl you pretty much auto hit once even on something ridiculous like treerazor. Inflict your debilition then can have 3 more attacks(two weapon flurry plus quickened) at -8 double debilitation you added both flat footed and extra precision damage so any of those three that land get the extra 2d6 precision.
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Also to consider for dual weapon warrior with a ruffian rogue. Guide gave powerful sneak a relatively low rating. With powerful sneak sneak attack is no longer precision damage. So both attacks apply those extra d6s. Now twin feint is completely useless.
Think of this silly combination. Ruffian rogue with 2 spellstrike weapons. 4th lvl you took magical trickster to go with that. Now powerful sneak. You got gang up so target flat footed. Both ones a crit the other hit 3rd action pop spellstrike on the crit weapon if it's still loaded. So all that weapon damage plus the 3rd lvl spells crit damage plus you get sneak attack 3 times 2 of which are crits and didn't once suffer from map.
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Also, I will argue that theif is the best ranged rogue over mastermind. Yes the racket doesn't benefit bow shots. But at 10th lvl theif is the only racket with a zero action way to inflict flat footed.
2nd lvl archer
4th point blank shot
6th parting shot
8th eldritch archer
10th precise debilition.
Is the target flat footed?
Yes then eldritch shot.
No then parting shot.
No investment in additional lore or any other need feat for recall knowledge. Mastermind can only take advantage of eldritch shot if they got lucky on a crit recall. Automatic knowledge could do free flat footed on weak targets but meh.
If you're wanting to play a ranged rogue what racket is better? Up to 6th sure mastermind but parting shot changes that. 2 actions flat footed shot and step or 1 action recall knowledge for chance at flat footed strike no step.
Also bow is 1 hand+ so if you have to be melee and have a finesse natural attack then you get to take advantage of your dex.(note technically doesn't work by raw) but you do have a hand to draw a dagger and stab.
Also wanted to point out at 10th lvl not only is the theif free way of inflicting flat footed superior to mastermind for the rogue but the entire group. Mastermind is flat footed to only you. Scoundrels feint is only to melee attacks and has the mental trait. Precise debilition is just flat footed.
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That last bit, about finesse unarmed strikes is not accurate without a houserule, I'm afraid. Thief's DEX to damage only applies to weapons, not unarmed attacks (to the dismay of many rogue martial artists).
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HammerJack wrote: That last bit, about finesse unarmed strikes is not accurate without a houserule, I'm afraid. Thief's DEX to damage only applies to weapons, not unarmed attacks (to the dismay of many rogue martial artists). Accurate, I did forget that one since we do have that house rule.
This and my stumbling stance swashbuckler are the two characters I currently play.
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The other caveat, with that houserule, is that there's no such thing as a character without a Finesse Unarmed Attack. Having claws or something could be important in the specific case of fighting constructs, with their immunity to nonlethal damage, but otherwise the nonlethal trait on Fist is rarely a problem.
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HammerJack wrote: The other caveat, with that houserule, is that there's no such thing as a character without a Finesse Unarmed Attack. Having claws or something could be important in the specific case of fighting constructs, with their immunity to nonlethal damage, but otherwise the nonlethal trait on Fist is rarely a problem. Yea and that makes sense. We houserule for unarmed it has to be lethal and agile as well as finesse. So no monk dragon stance etc.
Updated the original.
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Adding some opinion here. I hate how they did mastermind. Recalling knowledge is more investigator. Mastermind should work like the predictable feat maybe on just that perception do int instead of wisdom.
How does knowing the book facts on a human help you predict how a rogue versus wizard will move? None of the other rackets require as much as mastermind to make their racket work.
Skill monkey rogue was my favorite in 1e. And I played him like professor Moriarty. I'll take theif, ruffian or scoundrel over mastermind.
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Nyhme wrote: Also, I'm so not a fan of twin feint. Dual weapon warrior at 2nd gives double slice. Even for a rogue I think double slice is the better feat. Yes you only get sneak damage once. But consider this twin feint is strike/strike -4. Double slice is strike/strike. So second attack is landing 20% more frequently and criting more if your bonus is high enough to have you needing a 9 or less. Twin feint is only better when both land. Double slice both hit ok sneak once. But say one crits and one hits you choose which gets precision so crit sneak. Also you get to add everything for overcoming damage reduction. Twin Feint and Double Slice shouldn’t be competing with each other. You only need to use Twin Feint when the target isn’t already flat-footed. So it’s strike/strike -2 effectively but with sneak attack.
If you are already flanking or have them flat-footed, then twin feint doesn’t do anything, and you can double slice.
If they aren’t already flat-footed, you can double slice for a better chance to hit with the second attack, but you won’t get any sneak attack damage.
The feats are used in different situations.
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Ferious Thune wrote: Nyhme wrote: Also, I'm so not a fan of twin feint. Dual weapon warrior at 2nd gives double slice. Even for a rogue I think double slice is the better feat. Yes you only get sneak damage once. But consider this twin feint is strike/strike -4. Double slice is strike/strike. So second attack is landing 20% more frequently and criting more if your bonus is high enough to have you needing a 9 or less. Twin feint is only better when both land. Double slice both hit ok sneak once. But say one crits and one hits you choose which gets precision so crit sneak. Also you get to add everything for overcoming damage reduction. Twin Feint and Double Slice shouldn’t be competing with each other. You only need to use Twin Feint when the target isn’t already flat-footed. So it’s strike/strike -2 effectively but with sneak attack.
If you are already flanking or have them flat-footed, then twin feint doesn’t do anything, and you can double slice.
If they aren’t already flat-footed, you can double slice for a better chance to hit with the second attack, but you won’t get any sneak attack damage.
The feats are used in different situations. Absolutely disagree. Twin feint is a wasted feat when you have double slice.
Your "strike/strike -2" over simplifies it. Better "strike/strike -4 + flat footed" since if double slice is against flat footed it is it is strike/strike both against flat footed.
Now let's look at the feint action. Target is flat footed against your next melee attack not strike attack. Double slice is a melee attack that gives two strikes. So feint double slice is a full map attack that provides strike/strike against flat footed. Twin feint is also an attack that gives two strikes so if you're feinting first then Twin feint is the same as 2 strikes no feat.
If you don't want to put points in charisma there's tumble behind but again flat footed next attack so twin feint is pointless. So the only time twin feint falls as advantageous to someone with double slice is if they can't flank, cant tumble behind(if they took the feat) or cant feint.
Now given the extremely rare situation that your scenario comes into play let's not forget that you chose that very situational feat over nimble dodge.
And then when you have gang up or any of the other ways to inflict flat footed twin feint never has a situation where the second attack against flat footed matters.
And yes you could say it's not the attack action that qualifies but the attack trait on strike. And that's probably the more accurate interpretation. But even then you still have a higher chance to hit at full map + flat footed and full map against not flat footed. And in most scenarios double slice still outperforms here. Now if you feint twin feint then you are close.
Anyway what I'm saying in even in the scenario that twin feint is better it's marginal and not that frequent and at 6th level and beyond its easy to get flat footed on all your attacks. And sacrificing nimble dodge for a situational slightly better attack is not a good choice. And if the target as any kind of resistance to the attacks double slice absolutely is superior in all situations.
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Twin Feint doesn’t require you to actually feint. There’s no success roll needed. The target is automatically flat-footed against the second attack. It’s a way for a low level rogue to ensure that someone is flat-footed to at least one of their attacks. So, again, it doesn’t compete with double slice, because you use them for different things. You’ll probably stop using Twin Feint at 6th, but you can’t even get double slice until 2nd (edit: forgot it was included in the dedication) (if you even take Two-Weapon Warrior and assuming you don’t want a different archetype). You can always retrain twin feint to something else at 6th if you want.
What double slice should really be compared against is just attacking twice. Someone ran the math there at one point and it seemed like it worked in double slice’s favor, since you can choose which attack to apply sneak to. And that worked out better with the extra crits than getting sneak twice with normal MAP.
Nimble Dodge is pretty terrible. You have to use it before you know the result of the attack, so it just ends up wasting your reaction most of the time. And at 8th level you’ll likely want your reaction for Opportune Backstab.
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Ferious Thune wrote: Twin Feint doesn’t require you to actually feint. There’s no success roll needed. The target is automatically flat-footed against the second attack. It’s a way for a low level rogue to ensure that someone is flat-footed to at least one of their attacks. So, again, it doesn’t compete with double slice, because you use them for different things. You’ll probably stop using Twin Feint at 6th, but you can’t even get double slice until 2nd (edit: forgot it was included in the dedication) (if you even take Two-Weapon Warrior and assuming you don’t want a different archetype). You can always retrain twin feint to something else at 6th if you want.
What double slice should really be compared against is just attacking twice. Someone ran the math there at one point and it seemed like it worked in double slice’s favor, since you can choose which attack to apply sneak to. And that worked out better with the extra crits than getting sneak twice with normal MAP.
Nimble Dodge is pretty terrible. You have to use it before you know the result of the attack, so it just ends up wasting your reaction most of the time. And at 8th level you’ll likely want your reaction for Opportune Backstab.
Your logic on nimble dodge is flawed. We are literally talking about an attack that changes AC by 2 before you know if it changes the outcome. That logic could also go "raising a shield is pretty terrible. You don't even know if you'll be attacked or if it will change the outcome"
Also, hit or miss isn't the only function of nimble dodge. The majority of you level monsters need a 9 to hit most characters that don't have a circumstance or status bonus. So in most cases that +2 from nimble dodge is actually reducing their crit chance by 1 as well. It reduces by 2 if they're needing an 8 to hit.
Logic on nimble dodge versus opportune backstab is also flawed. We are talking a mostly situational choice between 2 feats. Do you nimble dodge or opportune backstab with your reaction? And I agree most of the time I'll save for opportune backstab. But if the tank is down or indisposed or I know won't be attacking this round or if me and the other melee people already went so opportune backstab might not happen. So yes nimble dodge isn't the reaction you'll default to most of the time but I can guarantee it is far more often than the times Twin feint outperforms double slice.
But again your logic on retraining falls short since same logic applies to nimble dodge at 8th instead of twin feint.
Lastly I'll argue that nimble dodge is superior to twin feint even without double slice. A crit on a squishy rogue at 1st lvl can easily mean instant dying 2. So nimble dodge reducing a crit on 19 or 20 to 20 or crit on 18 to 20 to a 20 is huge.
A while ago, I wrote: More food for thought: Probably more powerful than using Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster to get a triple class build would be to use Ancient Elf instead of Eldritch Trickster, to get effectively an Eldritch Trickster, but using the Rogue Racket that you really want for its own abilities.
I'd like to analyze this in more depth later, but for now, comparing 3 options, but since I don't have time to do it right, here are some brief thoughts:
•Elf Eldritch Trickster built on some heritage other than Ancient Elf: Pro: You get the goodies of a heritage other than Ancient Elf -- Arctic Elf, Cavern Elf, Desert Elf, and some of the Versatile Heritages actually have some potentially useful features; also, lowering the level prerequisite for Magical Trickster (Sneak Attack with spells) from 4 to 2 would be good if you need the level 4 feat for something else that you can't take at level 2. Con: Eldritch Trickster locks you out of some of the potentially more useful features that other Rogue Rackets have, notably entirely locking you out of some other level 2 feat that you really need.
•Elf quasi-Eldritch Trickster built using Ancient Elf and some Rogue Racket other than Eldritch Trickster: Pro: You get your casting class dedication online right away, and you get to choose the Rogue Racket you really want. Con: You have to wait until level 4 for Magical Trickster.
•Elf Eldritch Trickster using Ancient Elf to shoehorn in a 3rd class (is this even legal?): Pro: Figher/Magic User/Thief, here we come! Con: With your feats spread between 3 classes and your Rogue Racket locked into Eldritch Trickster, and your Magic Using class needing 4 feats beyond the Dedication just to fill out its spellcasting potential, you won't be a very good Fighter, and you won't be a very good Magic User, and you won't be a very good Thief.
(Substitute Half-Elf for Elf above as appropriate, although I haven't heard a final resolution of whether Half-Elf even qualifies for the Ancient Elf heritage.)
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UnArcaneElection wrote:
(Substitute Half-Elf for Elf above as appropriate, although I haven't heard a final resolution of whether Half-Elf even qualifies...
There was an official pfs ruling that half elves can't take it. I understand the logic but it's disappointing. In pf1 half elves were the king of multiclassing. No the only reflection of that is at 9th lvl with multitalented they can ignore the ability requirements.
Now ancient elf adopted ancestry human multitalented is king of multiclassing which I guess in a way is sort of half elf.
Eldritch trickster is terrible. The only reason to take it is for role-playing a back story. Scoundrel and mastermind do it better.
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You could argue theif is even better than eldritch trickster since you can throw daggers and cast electric arc.
But skipping that, this is just a generic tossed togethwr.
Half elf scoundrel rogue
Same ability score breakdown as if you went eldritch trickster sorcerer, bard etc.
Wildborn magic electric arc
Nimble dodge or you're next I mean you are charisma based.
Distracting feint
Otherworldly magic telekinetic projectile.
Magical trickster
Something cool
Eldritch archer
Give your guy a whip, don't need to be trained in it just need the 10' melee reach.
First level standard 0 level badger AC 16 reflex +5 electric arc is superior with the reflex save of +5 versus dc 12 needing to take half damage. So 1 and 2 is crit double, 3 through 12 regular damage and 13 through 19 half and 20 none. 5% no damage, 35% half damage, 50% regular damage, 10% double damage.
Versus telekinetic projectile needing a 7 to hit if they are flat footed and crit 17 to 20.
1 to 6 zero damage, 7 to 16 regular damage 17 to 20 crit. So 30% no damage, 50% regular damage, 20% crit. It loses out even with extra 15% double against the 35% half damage.
2nd and 3rd lvl now we have distracting feint. So use the whip to feint at 10' and drop reflex by half. Now cr 2 blackberry 18 ac +8 reflex so that's a wash. Trickster has sneak now though. So chance for double damage is the same as trickster but you still have the gap for half damage versus no damage. And electric arc can hit 2 targets.
4th lvl now it's equal footing for damage but also consider this. Scoundrel feinting is debuffing ac for melee and reflex and perception for everyone. That's a world of difference versus the trickster creating a distraction.
6th lvl game over there's no comparison now.
Also more fun but won't work on mindless and things that don't understand you. Daze and bon mot. Now your debuffing will for everyone, doing the better damage as mental and a chance to stun 1 and force them to use an action unless they like that will debuff. That's gross and bon mot is so fun. 3rd lvl you could have daze, electric arc, bon mot and distracting feint. Also distracting feint and non mot are awesome together. One is circumstance the other is status. So perception debuffed by 4 or 5. Super easy crit feint there.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
If I were a paizo game designer. Eldritch Trickster would have been minor magic at 1st, magical trickster at 2nd and then progression in the tradition you chose with minor magic at 4th, 12th and 18th.
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Nymhe:
Re: Nimble Dodge, terrible was probably too strong of a word, but it’s not a very good feat. The difference between Nimble Dodge and raising a shield is that raising a shield is much more likely to matter, since it affects every attack in the round. But having Nimble Dodge as an option isn’t terrible. It’s just nowhere near as great as people seem to think it is. In theory, it matters on 20% of the attacks you use it against, but that is far fewer than 20% of the attacks against you. In practice, I’ve seen it matter maybe twice in around 200 hours of PFS play so far. The best argument for it is that a Rogue doesn’t have any other reactions, so may as well have something, but that’s not a great argument. It’s only when people play it incorrectly, letting it apply after the roll, that it becomes a good feat. (You should look at reactive shield if you want that option, though not a real option for two-weapon Rogues).
And once again, I’m not sure why there’s this need to compare feats that do entirely different things. If you want a defensive option, you won’t take twin feint. Mine wasn’t a comparison between the two, just a comment that Nimble Dodge isn’t as good as people think it is at first glance, and nowhere near being an automatic choice at level 1.
If you’re tanking as a Rogue, Nimble Dodge can help. So can killing things faster, and it’s the same situation where Twin Feint is going to be most useful, because a dead enemy can’t attack you at all. It’s, again, a choice between whether you prefer the defensive option or the offensive one. (Or you could take tumble behind as you suggested earlier to help kill things faster).
But it’s almost as if none of the 1st level feats are fantastic all the time, as if someone designed it that way. They are all situational. So just pick whichever you prefer using. Double Slice is, in more situations, better than either, but it’s not a 1st level Rogue Feat. It’s 2nd (or 4th) and locks you into an Archetype, whether that’s Two-Weapon Warrior or Fighter Multiclass. And, surprise, Fighter has better 1st level combat related feats than Rogue.
And, yes, you could just retrain out of Nimble Dodge at 8th, or you could keep it as an additional option to Opportune Backstab. I was pointing out that you’ll use Opportune Backstab much more frequently (if you take it), meaning your usage of Nimble Dodge will go way down. Opportune Backstab is one of the best offensive reactions in the game, and it triggers more often than not in a combat, unless you’re moving out of melee at the end of every turn. But there’s no harm in having Nimble Dodge for the situations when you might want to use it instead. Just like there’s no harm in having Twin Feint for the times you might want to use it instead of Double Slice. Because the feats are used for different things.
A quick check on Twin Feint vs Double Slice in the Expected Damage tool shows that Twin Feint does come out slightly ahead when you wouldn’t otherwise have an opponent flat-footed, even for a thief getting full dex bonus to damage, and that’s before considering Debilitating Strike. So Twin Feint maintains a niche use even once you have Double Slice as, again, a way to reliably get sneak attack when you don’t otherwise have them flat-footed. Like in a situation where you’re forced 1 on 1 for whatever reason.
Nimble Dodge has already been debated to death and it pretty much comes down to personal preferance (See https://paizo.com/search?q=nimble+dodge&forum=v5748dmu0pw4k for previous debates).
Personally, I'm not a fan and I ran through some of the practical math here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs431pn?Tier-List-for-Reactions#37.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nyhme wrote: Also, I will argue that theif is the best ranged rogue over mastermind. Yes the racket doesn't benefit bow shots. But at 10th lvl theif is the only racket with a zero action way to inflict flat footed.
2nd lvl archer
4th point blank shot
6th parting shot
8th eldritch archer
10th precise debilition.
Is the target flat footed?
Yes then eldritch shot.
No then parting shot.
No investment in additional lore or any other need feat for recall knowledge. Mastermind can only take advantage of eldritch shot if they got lucky on a crit recall. Automatic knowledge could do free flat footed on weak targets but meh.
If you're wanting to play a ranged rogue what racket is better? Up to 6th sure mastermind but parting shot changes that. 2 actions flat footed shot and step or 1 action recall knowledge for chance at flat footed strike no step.
Also bow is 1 hand+ so if you have to be melee and have a finesse natural attack then you get to take advantage of your dex.(note technically doesn't work by raw) but you do have a hand to draw a dagger and stab.
Also wanted to point out at 10th lvl not only is the theif free way of inflicting flat footed superior to mastermind for the rogue but the entire group. Mastermind is flat footed to only you. Scoundrels feint is only to melee attacks and has the mental trait. Precise debilition is just flat footed.
You are assuming that the party with the mastermind is not also benefiting from gaining the information that you get from recalling knowledge. There are many ways to build in getting to recall knowledge as a free action. Automatic knowledge really works well with the additional lore feat and getting specific about the kinds of targets that you are trying to identify. Being able to snipe and give a -10ft movement penalty is all the mastermind really needs to be an incredibly frustrating foe.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote: Nyhme wrote: Also, I will argue that theif is the best ranged rogue over mastermind. Yes the racket doesn't benefit bow shots. But at 10th lvl theif is the only racket with a zero action way to inflict flat footed.
2nd lvl archer
4th point blank shot
6th parting shot
8th eldritch archer
10th precise debilition.
Is the target flat footed?
Yes then eldritch shot.
No then parting shot.
No investment in additional lore or any other need feat for recall knowledge. Mastermind can only take advantage of eldritch shot if they got lucky on a crit recall. Automatic knowledge could do free flat footed on weak targets but meh.
If you're wanting to play a ranged rogue what racket is better? Up to 6th sure mastermind but parting shot changes that. 2 actions flat footed shot and step or 1 action recall knowledge for chance at flat footed strike no step.
Also bow is 1 hand+ so if you have to be melee and have a finesse natural attack then you get to take advantage of your dex.(note technically doesn't work by raw) but you do have a hand to draw a dagger and stab.
Also wanted to point out at 10th lvl not only is the theif free way of inflicting flat footed superior to mastermind for the rogue but the entire group. Mastermind is flat footed to only you. Scoundrels feint is only to melee attacks and has the mental trait. Precise debilition is just flat footed.
You are assuming that the party with the mastermind is not also benefiting from gaining the information that you get from recalling knowledge. There are many ways to build in getting to recall knowledge as a free action. Automatic knowledge really works well with the additional lore feat and getting specific about the kinds of targets that you are trying to identify. Being able to snipe and give a -10ft movement penalty is all the mastermind really needs to be an incredibly frustrating foe. I mean you're right but at what cost and why? Addition lore, assurance,, automatic knowledge for how many skills? Sure you're a rogue but 3 skill feats for lore undead then 3 for lore animals etc... there aren't enough skill feats.. sure the campaign might have a theme but still. You could go loremaster and grab automatic knowledge for everything but then youre sacrificing some great high level feats. Investigator and ranger do the recall knowledge for the team better, enigma bard does it better. Wizard could feasibly do it as well, without sacrificing so many skill feats.
Plus you're the rogue. Using int just to give your target flat footed for you and then having some info to give the party is pretty lackluster in comparison. And if your going with automatic knowledge then an 8 int does as well as a 22 int.
Theif inflicting flat footed for everyone is superior in almost all scenarios to a -10 speed penalty. Heck if you really like the recall knowledge part theif is still better. Take parting shot and all the same recall knowledge feats you've got the same as what mastermind has but more versatility. And if the mastermind is taking parting shot then why bother being a mastermind? Theif has the better debilitation feat and more reliable ways to inflict flat footed and can still prioritize dex con and wis over int.
Mastermind small chance for 1 minute of flat footed for self only. A ton of devotion to recall knowledge skills. And bonus of giving info on targets.
Theif easily inflict flat footed at ranged with only 2 feats. One way inflicts flat footed for the party including for the spellcasters spell attacks, which is hard to do. Against already flat footed targets can add more precision damage. Better ability prioritization for wis and con for survivability and finding traps.. what rogues are supposed to do. And able to use skill feats for rogue skills.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I am glad you really like the thief! I have found the mastermind a lot of fun and actually build wisdom and dex up, with INT as a much lower priority. My mastermind is not exclusively a sniper. He is a switch hitter that uses unarmed attacks (another strike against the thief) often and will never go the trick magic item/spell caster route because our party of 4 already has 2 casters that like casting support spells. The campaign I am playing in is, and will continue to focus heavily on a couple different monster types that we get down time between switching between. One additional lore that can be retrained as necessary along with automatic knowledge is not that big of a player resource commitment.
Hi @Tarondor, I've read your Rogue Guide and found it very well done. May I ask if you have one for the Bard already planned?
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Thank you, but there is an on-point answer to your question HERE
Short version: Started one. Not gonna finish it.
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That's unfortunate, but I wish you luck with your novel (or whatever else you will spend your time on)!
Tarondor wrote: Thank you, but there is an on-point answer to your question HERE
Short version: Started one. Not gonna finish it.
You're making novel, huh. I'm making novel-like work too, but you should add Strix and Shackleborn from AG(Ancestry Guide) to judge list.
This is needed for one of my ancestory paragon character in novel.
Str +1, Dex +3, Con +1, Int +2, Wis +1, Cha +0
Laclale♪ wrote: Str +1, Dex +3, Con +1, Int +2, Wis +1, Cha +0 ...or Str +0, Dex +3, Con +1, Int +2, Wis +1, Cha +1.
So you may want to make note of the synergy between the Loremaster archetype and the Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover feat for the Mastermind.
The Loremaster dedication grants Loremaster Lore, which grants a single lore skill for making your Recall Knowledge checks at the cost of that skill being at a reduced proficiency compared to more specific skills or a focused lore skill.
Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover is available to any Rogue with membership in Pathfinder Society membership, and is specifically available to all PFS players. This feat lets you reroll a failed Recall Knowledge check using a second skill that you've specified with the feat.
If you opt to use a 2nd level Rogue feat for the dedication and a 4th level skill feat you choose to focus on only a single "Recall Knowledge" skill, rather than having to advance multiple.
It frees up options for many Mastermind builds.
I'm not sure I understand the synergy with Cognitive Crossover, Loremaster alone lets you almost ignore all other knowledge skills (effective +7 at trained since it lets you hit -5 DCs and +9 when you advance it to expert). Cognitive Crossover would make you required to have two good knowledge skills and one of them wouldn't be as widely applicable as Loremaster already is.
Though it would be funny picking up Bardic or Gossip Lore as well and use that for the Cognitive Crossover for a second try.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
What in the world makes you think that Loremaster Lore would use -5 DCs? It is the literal opposite of having a very specific lore focused on the subject.
From the way Cognitive Crossover reads, you roll the second skill regardless of whether it would normally apply in the situation. So you could have Loremaster Lore and Arcana, for example. Roll Loremaster Lore in place of Nature as Fey Lore, for example. If you don’t get information, you use a reaction and reroll using Arcana — even though Arcana wouldn’t normally tell you anything about Fey. That’s the crossover or “unlikely sources” part of the feat. Normally it wouldn’t be so all encompassing, because it would be something like substitute Arcana for Nature or Nature for Arcana. But this is substitute Arcana for any other lore skill. And someone maxing Arcana will have a much higher roll with that than with Loremaster Lore.
As for the -5 DC, yeah, expect a lot of table variation on that. Some GMs might give -5, some -2, and some no reduction, depending on if they consider it as counting as any other specific lore, or if they consider it counting only as Loremaster Lore, but being a super broad single Lore that can recall knowledge on any subject.
HammerJack wrote: What in the world makes you think that Loremaster Lore would use -5 DCs? It is the literal opposite of having a very specific lore focused on the subject. You can recall lore on any subject, which would include something specific like Vampire Lore, just the way I read it. If that doesn't work then I would probably never use Loremaster Lore (+2 on anything) and instead use Untrained Improvisation or Keen Recollection which is a +3 on everything in a much less ambiguous way since can roll your untrained Vampire Lore with your level as your proficiency.
Though that Cognitive Crossover synergy does look a bit better if it is interpreted as allowing you to use any skill you want no matter what. If that's the case then Additional Lore is a very convenient way to get your auto-scaling secondary knowledge skill.
Nyhme wrote:
Now ancient elf adopted ancestry human multitalented is king of multiclassing which I guess in a way is sort of half elf.
I dont think that would work. Adopted ancestery has this clause:
"... as long as the ancestry feats don’t require any physiological feature that you lack, as determined by the GM."
Ancient elf is old - much older than a mere human. I would call that a physiological feature.
PFS has ruled this on 2e.aonprd.com:
"PFS Note: The ancient elf heritage requires an elven lifespan (a feature that half-elves do not have) and thus cannot be selected by half-elves using the Elf Atavism feat, only by full elves.
In your long life, you’ve dabbled in many paths and many styles. Choose a class other than your own. You gain the multiclass dedication feat for that class, even though you don’t meet its level prerequisite. You must still meet its other prerequisites to gain the feat."
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Onkonk wrote: HammerJack wrote: What in the world makes you think that Loremaster Lore would use -5 DCs? It is the literal opposite of having a very specific lore focused on the subject. You can recall lore on any subject, which would include something specific like Vampire Lore, just the way I read it. If that doesn't work then I would probably never use Loremaster Lore (+2 on anything) and instead use Untrained Improvisation or Keen Recollection which is a +3 on everything in a much less ambiguous way since can roll your untrained Vampire Lore with your level as your proficiency.
Though that Cognitive Crossover synergy does look a bit better if it is interpreted as allowing you to use any skill you want no matter what. If that's the case then Additional Lore is a very convenient way to get your auto-scaling secondary knowledge skill. The subject is the vampire you're trying to recall knowledge about. Vampire Lore is a skill that could be used to recall knowledge about that vampire. Those aren't interchangeable, and Loremaster Lore is defined as a single skill that covers all subjects for Recall Knowledge, not as a skill that acts as other skills.
Untrained Improvisation is still an approach that's going to run into huge amounts of table variation and shouldn't be suggested as though the results were a constant. Plenty of GMs will do the reasonable thing, give a -5 DC to someone that actually has a specific lore, and give the person rolling Untrained the same DC whether the skill they say they're using untrained is Religion, Undead Lore, Vampire Lore, or Lore: Left-Handed Vampires With Blond Hair In This Town, Specifically. Using tricks that you know work at your table is all well and good, but suggesting things that rely on an extremely generous ruling as general advice doesn't hold up well, and can send people down a dead end path.
HammerJack wrote:
Plenty of GMs will do the reasonable thing, give a -5 DC to someone that actually has a specific lore, and give the person rolling Untrained the same DC whether the skill they say they're using untrained is Religion, Undead Lore, Vampire Lore, or Lore: Left-Handed Vampires With Blond Hair In This Town, Specifically. Using tricks that you know work at your table is all well and good, but suggesting things that rely on an extremely generous ruling as general advice doesn't hold up well, and can send people down a dead end path.
What is "reasonable" or an "extremely generous ruling" is up to each GM, should one recommend against using spells like Synthesia or feats like Scare to Death because some GMs might find it OP? A lot of GMs make Aid a higher DC than 20 as an example as well, table variation will exist at every table and I'm always a proponent of having a conversation about what your character is going to do in combat with the GM so nothing will be sprung as a surprise but I think it's a bit silly to claim that you shouldn't share stuff because the GM might change the rules.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
My reason for calling it reasonable, speaking only for myself, is that if two characters with Untrained Improvisation attempt to recall knowledge with their untrained bonus about the same creature, then they are doing exactly the same thing in-universe. Giving one character a lower DC because the player phrased the action as a more specific skill is then not treating the players fairly, because the character getting the advantage isn't actually taking an action better suited to the situation. They're still trying to figure out what they know with the same qualifications (as distinct from a character that actually has a specialty skill doing it with better qualifications).
The reason that I caution against advising this specific trick (or at least against recommending it as something that definitely works a given way without an asterisk about the other common rulings), though, is because it doesn't really parallel a GM deciding that Synesthesia is OP. In that case, the GM bans Synesthesia. In this Recall Knowledge case, though, you don't get banned from taking the feat, it just might not work out the way you expect. Without any rules changes, because of the looser nature of Recall Knowledge as an action (as opposed to something small and concrete like Synesthesia or Scare to Death), there are still places for it to fall apart:
1. The GM just sets the DC they feel is appropriate, and you get the Religion DC. If this were only my ruling, it wouldn't be worth interjecting here, but I've seen a lot of discussions of this exact trick where a large portion of the people who said anything about how they run this said they would give the Religion DC, and another large portion said they would give a -2, but not more specific than that. My sample size is limited to people I've seen in these conversations, but it's all pointed towards -5 or better DC not being a safe assumption for people to make.
2. Another question that comes up a lot with recall knowledge is how to select the skill used. Depending on how worried they are about metagaming, table practices that I've seen include "I tell the player general skills they might use, ending with 'or if you have some Lore you think might work?'", "I don't want to give away creature type for free, so they just tell me what skill they want to use, and if they guess the wrong skill they'll get nothing" and "It's a secret check anyway, and I don't want to give away creature type for free because I have a massive fear of metagaming, so I just take their list of knowledge skills and roll the appropriate one". While I don't personally see much value in the approaches based on excessive fear of metagaming, they also make up another common point of failure for Untrained Improv shenanighans.
One 'uncommon' weapon that should probably be on a rogue's radar is the humble Poi: A Simple Flail with the Agile, Finesse, Backswing, Nonlethal, and Uncommon traits.
So what you have is a weapon you are automatically fully proficient with, can use dexterity for attack rolls (and thieves can use Dexterity for damage), has only a -3 MAP on your second swing if your first missed, and gets the excellent 'knocked prone on a crit' flail specialization bonus.
The Nonlethal trait is bit of a mixed bag (great if you don't want to actually kill your foe, but not so good for those 'immune to nonlethal damage' creatures) and the 1d4 damage die is a bit subpar (but not by much), but on the whole I like this weapon a lot (definatly a great option for a Shifting rune).
Are you still busy, Tarondor?
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
I run two businesses, have two small children, run six online games and one in-person game and I’m usually writing something too. Currently I’m converting “The Banewarrens” and “Night of Dissolution” to 2e.
So yes, I’m busy. :-)
Narxiso wrote: Since Tactical Entry does not have a trigger, it does seem to require the rogue to be the absolute fastest in initiative. Nope.
Tactical Entry: "You rolled Stealth for initiative in this encounter, and neither you nor any enemies have acted yet in this encounter."
That sentence only has two nouns: "you" and "enemies." It makes no mention of allies. So it doesn't matter how many of your allies go before you, as long as no enemies have acted, you may use Tactical Entry.
As neat as the flavor is, I wouldn't spend a Class Feat on it.
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Dubious Scholar wrote: Edit: Also, Magical Trickster is aggravatingly hard to set up because Hide/Sneak and Make a Distraction, the easiest ways for an archer to set up sneak attack, don't work for spells. It's not particularly hard to make a target flat-footed..
1. Take Dread Striker and spam the frightened condition: Brutal Beating Ruffian feat
Demoralize
Dred Ampoule
Fear spell
Fearsome weapon property rune
Multiclass Fighter for Basic Maneuver Intimidating Strike
etc.
2. Spam prone. Any spell with a knockdown effect. Get your teammates to make the target prone (eg: trip and Fighter Knock Down)
Cast Command and tell the target to fall prone
etc
3. Get thetarget: Confused
Grabbed (by teammates)
Paralyzed
Restrained
Unconscious
etc.
4. Gain the hidden or undetected conditions.
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