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I am willing to look the other way for traditions even if it irritates me because of new edition adding more options. But I will not accept a Summoner becoming a solely Divine caster.
You don't have to? I mean, they've explicitly stated it will be a 'pick a Tradition' caster, and I doubt that will change in the playtest. People generally like the flexibility offered by those.
I am willing to look the other way for traditions even if it irritates me because of new edition adding more options. But I will not accept a Summoner becoming a solely Divine caster.You don't have to? I mean, they've explicitly stated it will be a 'pick a Tradition' caster, and I doubt that will change in the playtest. People generally like the flexibility offered by those.
I'll be asking for a default way to get an arcane Summoner with what 2e would consider a divine eidolon, though. Divine list might work fine for psychopomps and angels, but it doesn't work very well for devils or demons.
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I'll be asking for a default way to get an arcane Summoner with what 2e would consider a divine eidolon, though. Divine list might work fine for psychopomps and angels, but it doesn't work very well for devils or demons.I am willing to look the other way for traditions even if it irritates me because of new edition adding more options. But I will not accept a Summoner becoming a solely Divine caster.You don't have to? I mean, they've explicitly stated it will be a 'pick a Tradition' caster, and I doubt that will change in the playtest. People generally like the flexibility offered by those.
Although the Demon bloodline of sorcerer is divine.
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Although the Demon bloodline of sorcerer is divine.I'll be asking for a default way to get an arcane Summoner with what 2e would consider a divine eidolon, though. Divine list might work fine for psychopomps and angels, but it doesn't work very well for devils or demons.I am willing to look the other way for traditions even if it irritates me because of new edition adding more options. But I will not accept a Summoner becoming a solely Divine caster.You don't have to? I mean, they've explicitly stated it will be a 'pick a Tradition' caster, and I doubt that will change in the playtest. People generally like the flexibility offered by those.
Divine with some Arcane firepower in its specific spell list, it should be noted. Same goes for the Diabolic Bloodline, with some non-Divine debuffing going on for both.
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Which is probably why 2e Summoners have been implied to be able to choose their Tradition based on what their Eidolon is and how exactly it was created. If Traditions are the combination and manipulation of Essence to become magic; than I'd say and Eidolon is the combination of said Essence to become life essentially.Interesting, I had not heard that they were a choose your tradition caster.
I wonder how the essences will tether to the Eidolon itself if that is the case, because I would expect some type of anchoring to exist in the same way the Witch/Sorcerer have powers tethered to the tradition.
Where did they imply it was a potential choose tradition? I had always heard the theory that Summoner was to be the "Spontaneous Arcane" caster, but perhaps that's not the case.
Maybe these "further reduced casters" will be getting their own set of each tradition + casting type (and these will be the new "gish" classes). If they land well, we might expect the Inquisitor to be in the same vein and a brand new Class takes the role of Spontaneous Arcane (if that ever becomes a thing).
They said Summoners would be choose a list at Gencon. I have a link to the QA panel on this thread. They start talking about the magus at around minute 20, and the summoner very quickly after that.
They imply the Summoner is a "pick your own Tradition" class during GenCon. Can't recall what portion of the presentation it was it, or what exactly was said. But, Mark brings it up and seemingly reveals a little more than what Jason would have liked; making a comment at that time that Jason's Eidolon must be summoning a Primal one because of the face he made. And this, imo, is a great idea. The forms an Eidolon take are not strictly those of existing Immortals. Padrig itself is a weird, serpentine chicken thing; which screams Arcane or Occult imo. God Callers would clearly be Divine in nature. They aren't summoning Angels and Demons. But rather creatures that, as far as they care to believe, are actually deities. Dolok Darkfur is clearly not a Demonic creature. Summoning exact Immortals wasn't really a thing until Unchained came out, iirc. So an Eidolon doesn't have to be a creature of the Outer Planes. In fact, we have Archetypes like the Shadow Caller, First Worlder, and Shaitan Binder, all of which represent the Inner Planes which and are unlikely to be strictly Divine. So, access to all four Traditions is a grand idea.
On the Arcanist, I understand the basic premise of it being a Hybrid Class. But 2e presents the opportunity to make it more, as they did with the Investigator and Swashbuckler. Personally, I think they should drop the whole "Half-Blood Wizard" bit. Nothing about its mechanics really screams "Part-time Sorcerer" other than their Arcane Resevoir. But even then, the Magus also had access to an innate pool of magic, yet their spellcraft was anything but. Instead, they should focus more on the other portions of it's backstory. Scholars of all things magic, who through their tinkering, seek to discover and create new forms of magic. Unlike Wizards, whose study of magic is more controlled; an Arcanist is more reckless in their approach. By bending, breaking, exploiting, and potentially fusing the laws of magic as a whole, they have the potential to be true masters of the eldritch arts in a way that other spellcasters couldn't dream of. Using them as a sort of crutch to introduce more fused magic is kind of a bonus. The basic premise alone allows for 6 different paths. And given that many people are interested in seeing "partial casters", Arcanist could be a good place to do that. They sacrifice anything over 6th level to pick and choose from 2 separate traditions; with a possible third options being their fused tradition with some unique spells on the list. Could even go as far as to have the ability to "cast" 6th+ spells by combining them to create spells from the fused list, which are themselves 6+. Not sure how the exact mechanics would work. But, it's an idea. How exactly they would expand on all this later with more paths is the real question. Something for the devs to figure out.
Also, I did say my Summoner/Eidolon explination/theory were basically the cliff notes. I had a much longer, slightly more detailed post on it. It isn't perfect and does have it's mistakes. But, I think it is a fairly grounded theory on the matter. And, I didn't mean that Eidolons can't exist without a Summoner at all. Only that, physically speaking anyways, a Summoner HAS to be in the equation somewhere. As it stands, even Unfettered Eidolon don't simply materialize from thin air.
Lastly, we do in fact know how the Four Essence tie into multiverse as a whole. The 2e CRB straight up says they are theorized my mages to be the building blocks of reality. And while, sure, in-universe that is nothing more than a theory. In reality, we know it to be fact, given that it was even written to begin with. Yea, not everything the devs put out is fact. But, that seems pretty likely to be as much.
I digress. While the future of the Arcanist is fun to brainstorm and discuss upon; I for one do not see it makeing the jump to 2e as a Full Class. Not unless the good people of Paizo see our ramblings on the matter and decide to explore it as such. The new system kind of makes the whole hybrid thing seem obsolete. And the fact that it isn't in the playtest says to me that it isn't a Full Class, as I'm not sure where else they could introduce it. Given their statements on the way books will be handled in the future, Secrets of Magic seemed like it would have been the best book for its inclusion. That said, I'll wager it is an Archetype or Subclass. Could be mistaken, as I am basing this on conjecture. But, I also don't see them outright getting rid of anything that could be considered a major component of first edition. So it will probably show up somehow.
The remaining spellcasting classes of 1e are likely to appear in themed books, I think, or become an Archetype or Subclass as well. Of them, I think the Occult Classes will make the transition, likely in books about Psychic, Occult, or Spirit magic. The Inquisitor I think has room to be a Cleric Doctrine or Cleric Archetype (although, i hope it returns as a Full Class). The Skald could be a Bard Archetype. The Bloodrager, a Barbarian Instinct or Class Archetype.
The Hunter is a toss up for me. Was also kind of a weird one for me too, given that Rangers had magic by default in first edition. Albeit, their own weird, none Druidic magic. Granted, i was never as interested in the Hunter as I was some of the others, so maybe I'm missing something. I'm not sure. The way Rangers and Druids work now, they also both fill the Animal Companion expert in their own way with their Sublasses. Unless they use the Hunter as THE Animal Companion master in much the same way that the Witch is now basically the master of Familairs.
Anyways, I'll stop going off topic. The Summoner is the point of this thread.
I digress. While the future of the Arcanist is fun to brainstorm and discuss upon; I for one do not see it makeing the jump to 2e as a Full Class.
Actually, given that the Summoner just opened up into the "Pick a list Gish/Partial Caster/" Arcanist can certainly occupy the Spontaneous Arcane caster role.
Now the way they handle that spontaneous casting could be really cool. Blood casting, Tattoo casting, glyph casting, word casting, etc.
Basically, the arcanist binds magic to them directly but through some sorts of rituals or other such method.
That makes them both "learned" in that they acquired the power instead of being born with it and yet still qualify as spontaneous because the magic itself isn't "learned" only the method by which they become magical.
Then you can further their advancement in magic through more rituals/tattoos/glyphs/bloodcasting as they level.
I see more room for that Class now than I did in 1E when the only thing it did was make me pull my hair out over Dimensional Slide.
Anyways, I'll stop going off topic. The Summoner is the point of this thread.
This almost certainly means traditions and base eidolon forms are going to be bound then (even Marks comment implies it when he says the comment about Jason).
I am going to be interested to see how they handle this because of how Combat Focused the Primal/Arcane lists are versus the Divine/Occult lists.
I would expect the Eidolons of the Divine/Occult list to be more combat focused and the reverse for the other two simply by nature of balancing them (a Primal list Summoner with a super combat heavy Eidolon sounds stronger than a Druid to me).
Now, Heal when you have an Eidolon is of course going to be awesome, but I don't know that it makes up for the total damage/control possible with the other lists.
When does the PT drop? It's soon right
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I believe the playtest drops on the 7th.
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Is that based on the roughly similar early-in-the-month release date for the APG playtest, or have you heard more through the grape vine?
I have a player who'd like to playtest the Magus for our run of the Slithering, so this would be really advantageous if it does come out before we set that up. >>
I learned from this reddit comment. I didn't watch the livestream myself to confirm, but in that thread The Magic Sword confirmed that's accurate and I know they catch the Paizo streams pretty frequently.
Fair enough. I can see then need for a spontaneous Arcane caster more now, since Sorcerer doesn't fit that niche anymore. But, I'd equally argue that 2e's Varied Sorcerer makes that need slightly unnecessary as well. But, Sorcerers tjing now is "I'm a customizable spontaneous caster", so I do get the desire for a more specific caster to fill the void. And with an name like Arcanist, why not be strictly Arcane?
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I, for one, suggest the introduction of a class whose theme revolves around the theft and siphoning of energy and magic in order to cast spells. Not in a "I am a rogue who stole your magic" kind of way. But rather, my inspiration is characters similar to Mortal Kombat's Shang Tsung, who, for his part, steals the souls and abilities of others to fuel his own power. But, expanding this siphoning idea to other forms of magic, rather than just souls, makes not only for something a little less inherently malicious; but also thematically different. Still vile in it's approach, however, most of society would probably view it with disgust. Imagine, being a Wizard and casting a Fireball, only for the enemy you are facing to steal the very spell from the air and cast Lightning Bolt at you? Perhaps your a Draconic Sorcerer, whose very blood is drawn from their body and used as a catalyst to cast your own Breathe Weapon. This act could extend not only to magic and spells, but life and energy as a whole. You face an army of Hobogoblins? You rob them of their very souls, only to turn around and raise them as Undead. And, due to your misdeeds, you are chased down by a powerful Planetar, whose quintessense you then siphon to foul your magic.
I suggest we call this hypothetical class the Warlock!
It's something I came up with a few weeks ago. I don't know why, but I really want Pathfinder to use the name as a character option. It is so iconic, I feel it a necessary part of class based systems, especially when you give so many options already. I was thrilled when the Vigilante used it as an Archetype in 1e. But, since the need to have a "I study magic secretly" as a theme is covered by the way Vigilante works now, I need them to find a way to use it again. And while, yes, Warlock is typically used as the male equivalent of the Witch. Technically speaking, this is grammatically incorrect, as Witch is a unisexual term and doesn't need a masculine take on it. Sure, one could play Shang Tsung by using any number of the caster classes and either flavoring it or making some options that kind of enable it. But, why not make a whole class from it? We are going to need completely new content at some point. And Shang Tsung's particular theme of magic isn't really covered by anything. So why not!? It's approach still makes it come off as being particularly devious in nature, so it still creates that kind of negative connotation associated with the title. I doubt any spellcaster worth their salt would take the practice of gaining magic through theft to be a reputable one. Almost comes off as cheating or predatory.
I can see its Tradition being strictly Arcane. But the approach I suggest does leave room for yet another Varied Tradition caster. Depending on what kind of energy they use to fuel their spellcating could determine their Tradition? You steal spells? Then you are Arcane. Souls? Perhaps Occult. The very life from the plants and animals around you. Could argue Primal. Not really sure how Divine could work normally; but robbing an Angel or the Outer Planes of their very essence seems like it would fit. Definitely needs to be a Class whose basic spellcasting theme is power and destruction as a whole. So, Arcane works best with that I think. But, Focus Spells could also cover this. The class as a whole would cover that blaster mage niche as well. But overall, the theme is different enough to seem like a standalone thing. "You study magic? And you were born of it?! Ha! I can rob you both of that might!"
But since it is now something someone has said, I doubt it'll happen. Lol. Hire me Paizo! I have ideas!! Hell. You can have it for free! I simply want the freedom to play interesting and new characters from what is arguably my favorite TTG of all time. Just make this and say it was an idea you yourself had all along; and that Ly'ualdre is a crazy, Half-Elf hermit that all the locals avoid for his insanity.
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Sorry. I know I said I'd stay on topic. But you brought out my creative desires. My homebrew aside, Summoner will definently be bound to their Tradition. Don't expect we will see any class who can change their Tradition is some way without retraining. That said, I think their is room for an Eidolon to still be mutable. Do it kind of how the Witch handles some of their magic and abilities. Their Patron sets their Tradition, but then they can pick lessons and feats that provide spells which follow it. In fact, I think an Eidolons form will follow the Summoners own Tradition, in most cases, rather than the Tradition being dictated by the Eidolon. Whichever Tradition you use is the primary inspiration for your Eidolon's form, but doesn't bind it as so. Choose your initial aspect, which determines (mechanically) your Tradition, which influences the origin of the Eidolon, but doesn't necessarily keep you from changing it. Doing this leaves room for someone to play something like an Arcane Summoner with a Infeneral Eidolon; so not everyone has to be bound to say the Divine list because they want their Eidolon to look like a Horned Devil. Establish a base, but allow the Eidolon to remain mutable through daily preparation or a ritual. I think that would be fine.
I don’t see it coming out on the 7th. Mostly on account of the Labor Day holiday in the US. The 8th seems totally doable, though.
I don’t see it coming out on the 7th. Mostly on account of the Labor Day holiday in the US. The 8th seems totally doable, though.
Gotta say I kinda agree.
We still don't have the second errata round, the 7th sounds super soon.
Not that I'd complain, Magus is my favorite class and I'm excited to see a Summoner that I actually like (I had a lot of bones to pick with 1E Summoner).
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The Secrets of Magic playtest has been officially announced for the 7th when it was first revealed.
Pathfinder Secrets of Magic Playtest will be active September 7 – October 18 2020 for the Magus and Summoner classes. The associated Pathfinder Secrets of Magic hardcover releases July 2021 at Gen Con.
From here
Ly'ualdre what you just described is an Arcanist.
Arcanist had an Archetype to kill things to recover Arcane Resevoir.
Arcanist also many abilities that mess with ally or enemy spells: Energy Absorption allows the Arcanist to reduce the cost of Exploits that deal the same damage, making the basic energy exploits free; Redirect Spell lets an Arcanist take control of an another spell for as long as they fuel the exploit; Resistance Drain lets them use Spell Resistance to recover Arcane Resevoir; Siphon Spell lets Arcanist recover their recevoir when they dispell magic; Spell Thief lets Arcanist steal annongoing spell effect; Suffering Knowledge lets arcanist cast a spell they failed to save against, even if they dont have it in their spellbook; Counter Drain lets them recover when they succesfully counterspell; Etc.
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Do we know all the classes that will be in the playtest?
Summoner and Magus are the only classes. They probably want to cut back on the number of yearly classes to avoid bloat.
Summoner and Magus are the only classes. They probably want to cut back on the number of yearly classes to avoid bloat.
Do we know that it's just Classes? No extra goodies for the PT?
Interesting. I'll have to re-examime the Arcanist it seems.
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Probably won't see anything outside of the two classes and their associated spells and feats. If so, some new spells are definently a certainty to provide a better idea of what we can expect from each class; focus or otherwise. Feats could possibly give a bit of insight into some of the new magic systems and character options outside of the Summoner and Magus. Anything besides that is unlikely I think. I'm also very interested to see the updated art of Seltyiel, Balazar, and Padrig; or a new Iconic if they go that route. Either way, the art could include some indication of something new. Like how Valeros presented the idea of more involved shield mechanics.