Is there a spell that does this? If not, what level should it be?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Is there a death spell that kills the target with no save but only works if they are willing? I figure it might be useful to mercy kill someone, or as a "nice" way of executing people (they would just die right away and not feel anything.)


Define "willing". If you can charm or suggest someone into being willing, it's probably somewhere in the 7th level range. If you can't use those sorts of shenanigans, it could be as low as 1st, depending on range, target type, etc.

If it's a Death effect that precludes Raise Dead and so on, it's higher again.


You can generally choose to fail a save so spells with a save could work for this. I'm not aware of any no-save spell that fits your description though.


Mudfoot wrote:

Define "willing". If you can charm or suggest someone into being willing, it's probably somewhere in the 7th level range. If you can't use those sorts of shenanigans, it could be as low as 1st, depending on range, target type, etc.

If it's a Death effect that precludes Raise Dead and so on, it's higher again.

You couldn't trick someone, it would be like the contract devil contracts where they have to agree of their own free will. As for range, Touch sounds good.


of course you can (try to) trick them into failing their save. you just don't tell them what the spell really do. their ability to figure out the real spell effect (spellcraft check) or your true motive (sense motive check) and deciding if to fail their save or try and resist is up to them.

"ok now don't try and resist, this hypnosis therapy spell doesn't work if you resist it, but it's for your own good, trust me..."


Sounds like Phantasmal Killer, mostly because Phantasmal Killer allows both a will and a fortitude save. Who fails both? Nobody!

Shadow Lodge

Back in D&D3.0, the Ghostwalk setting had 'Painless Death' as a first level cleric spell, which required you to touch a willing target and caused 'The touched creature dies painlessly and instantly.'

Of course, this was a setting where people could continue to 'live' as a ghost after passing and it was fairly easy to resurrect your body afterwards if your ghost didn't die, so the spell made a lot of sense there (cold storage for 'vacated' bodies was a major industry as I recall).

Haven't seen anything like it since...


Yqatuba wrote:
Is there a death spell that kills the target with no save but only works if they are willing? I figure it might be useful to mercy kill someone, or as a "nice" way of executing people (they would just die right away and not feel anything.)

As long as the spell description spells out that it only works on people who are concious, not magically influenced, and give full informed consent, then I would say it is fine at level 1, probably even level 0.

If not, and it just relies on the standard (rather broad) definition of willing, then considerably higher. Or better yet not at all.

_
glass.

Grand Lodge

Meirril wrote:
Sounds like Phantasmal Killer, mostly because Phantasmal Killer allows both a will and a fortitude save. Who fails both? Nobody!

I have seen so many epic fights end when the BBE misses both save vs. PK...

But then I have played with a lot of Sorcerers with it. Made the saves the first round? Ok, do it again. Know what's coming your way next round - yeah, you guessed it.


Here's my first draft of the spell

Painless Death
Necromancy [death] level: Cleric/Oracle 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Witch 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S
Range: touch
Target: living, willing creature touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none: Spell Resistance: no

Description: The target creature dies an instant and painless death. The spell only functions if the target is completely willing and knows what will happen.If the target is deceived (whether through magical or mundane means), or doesn't know what the spell does, the spell automatically fails.


Yqatuba wrote:

Here's my first draft of the spell

Painless Death
Necromancy [death] level: Cleric/Oracle 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Witch 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S
Range: touch
Target: living, willing creature touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none: Spell Resistance: no

Description: The target creature dies an instant and painless death. The spell only functions if the target is completely willing and knows what will happen.If the target is deceived (whether through magical or mundane means), or doesn't know what the spell does, the spell automatically fails.

Yeah, that seems fine to me, with the exception that I don't really personally think it belongs on the wizard/sorcerer spell list and there are probably lots of other spell list where I feel like it does belong.

Like Inquisitor. Maybe even druid.But I'm not going to go through all the spell lists in the game.

I think the easy answer is, if you want the spell you can have it. This is purely an RP spell.


should it be level 1 or 0? That actually makes a pretty big differnece since level 0 spells can be cast at will even if the caster is level 1.


It sounds like you want a coup de grace spell. You need it to be magic so the player can willingly accept the spell's effects, but other than that it's not much more than a punching dagger. If you play in a game where players can willingly fail saves from non-spell effects, then you don't need a specific spell, just coup de grace with ray of frost or something.

If it's death in all its naked glory, the pain, the damage, and so on, then a cantrip seems about right. If the spell is painless, or leaves no evidence for cause of death, or some similar minor effect, probably level 1.


How many people per day do you expect to kill with this spell? Short of a situation like a cult expecting the apocalypse now and killing off its members (q.v. Jonestown/poisoned Kool aid), even one in a day seems a lot. I can't see it mattering that you can 'only' kill a handful of people per day because it's a 1st level spell. Zero or 1st hardly matters.

Shadow Lodge

Here's the D&D3.0 Ghostwalk spell: https://dndtools.net/spells/ghostwalk--94/painless-death--1375/


avr wrote:

How many people per day do you expect to kill with this spell? Short of a situation like a cult expecting the apocalypse now and killing off its members (q.v. Jonestown/poisoned Kool aid), even one in a day seems a lot. I can't see it mattering that you can 'only' kill a handful of people per day because it's a 1st level spell. Zero or 1st hardly matters.

I was thinking an executioner could use it as a "nice" way of killing people. I'm not sure how many people an executioner would execute on an average day, to be honest.

The Exchange

Yqatuba wrote:
avr wrote:

How many people per day do you expect to kill with this spell? Short of a situation like a cult expecting the apocalypse now and killing off its members (q.v. Jonestown/poisoned Kool aid), even one in a day seems a lot. I can't see it mattering that you can 'only' kill a handful of people per day because it's a 1st level spell. Zero or 1st hardly matters.

I was thinking an executioner could use it as a "nice" way of killing people. I'm not sure how many people an executioner would execute on an average day, to be honest.

outside of the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror, or something like that? So, say in Galt? I'd think that number would be a daily average of below 1. I fact, likely to be alot below 1.

I have seen a article that stated that one of the reasons there were so many people executed during the Reign of Terror was partly due to how easy the Guillotine made public executions. Before it's invention (by a Doctor, "invented with the specific intention of making capital punishment less painful..."), Executions were something that took all day, if not several days.


The problem I see with this spell is that you want to use it for 'mercy killings' but want the subject to be 'willing.' How many condemned prisoners could be described as 'willing' to be executed.

I can see someone opting for a painless spell rather than being sent to the wicker man but I still can't see them as 'willing.'

Maybe this would be better approached as a legal ritual rather than a spell. It could take hours to do that way and part of the ritual is having the condemned make a choice between traditional methods of execution and this one. That way it would be 'informed legal consent and due process' instead of 'willing.'

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