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Okay, I was looking forward to this archetype, but unless I'm reading it totally wrong, it seems to be a waste of feats except for a kobold and isn't this supposed to be more widely used?
First, only a draconic sorcerer, or a dragon instinct barbarian, or a dragon/spell scaled kobold can become one. The flavor text indicates that other characters can choose it, but the access conditions say that they cannot.
Second, since the sorcerer and barbarian can already get or wouldn't want almost all of the feats offered by the archetype, what is the advantage gained?
** Claws of the Dragon (4) only increases the die from d4 to d6 for the sorcerer, who normally isn't up in melee combat anyway. I know there are a very few melee sorcerers out there, though. It does seem to be an always-on ability, but the extra resistance would still only activate when using bloodline spells . A barbarian isn't going to switch their possible weapon damage down to a d6 (at least I hope not). Kobold is the only one who would use this.
** Draconic Scent (4) for barbarian can already be chosen as a feat and built upon if wanted. Sorcerer has much better things to choose from. Again, maybe a kobold would want this, depending on their own class feat availability.
** Dragon Arcana (4) for sorcerers is a no. A barbarian would have to take a previous spell casting archetype to use this. Again, only the kobold might want it.
** Scales of the Dragon (4) for sorcerers is a maybe since the item bonus from armor runes on explorer's clothing would stack with the status bonus, but that dex cap of +2 really hurts, unless you build specifically for this. Eh. Barbarian can do better with medium armor and a +1 dex mod and raise that with armor runes. For kobolds, it would depend on their class and, like the sorcerers, would want to build for this feat.
** Breath (8), Wings (12), and Shape of the Dragon (14) for a sorcerer are useless as they already have them. Barbarians, maybe, if they want the transform and the aoe/ranged breath is good. I'll admit wings and becoming a dragon are always great. Again, kobolds would love this part.
Third, I could have missed something, but it just seems that restricting this archetype to these three specific builds isn't what was expected, and even they would have to give up potentially much better feats to gain only a couple of usable ones.
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Okay, I was looking forward to this archetype, but unless I'm reading it totally wrong, it seems to be a waste of feats except for a kobold and isn't this supposed to be more widely used?
First, only a draconic sorcerer, or a dragon instinct barbarian, or a dragon/spell scaled kobold can become one. The flavor text indicates that other characters can choose it, but the access conditions say that they cannot.
Second, since the sorcerer and barbarian can already get or wouldn't want almost all of the feats offered by the archetype, what is the advantage gained?
** Claws of the Dragon (4) only increases the die from d4 to d6 for the sorcerer, who normally isn't up in melee combat anyway. I know there are a very few melee sorcerers out there, though. It does seem to be an always-on ability, but the extra resistance would still only activate when using bloodline spells . A barbarian isn't going to switch their possible weapon damage down to a d6 (at least I hope not). Kobold is the only one who would use this.
** Draconic Scent (4) for barbarian can already be chosen as a feat and built upon if wanted. Sorcerer has much better things to choose from. Again, maybe a kobold would want this, depending on their own class feat availability.
** Dragon Arcana (4) for sorcerers is a no. A barbarian would have to take a previous spell casting archetype to use this. Again, only the kobold might want it.
** Scales of the Dragon (4) for sorcerers is a maybe since the item bonus from armor runes on explorer's clothing would stack with the status bonus, but that dex cap of +2 really hurts, unless you build specifically for this. Eh. Barbarian can do better with medium armor and a +1 dex mod and raise that with armor runes. For kobolds, it would depend on their class and, like the sorcerers, would want to build for this feat.
** Breath (8), Wings (12), and Shape of the Dragon (14) for a sorcerer are useless as they already have them. Barbarians, maybe, if they want the transform and the aoe/ranged...
Access is a soft condition it's not a requirement.
Think like this access turns the archetype entrance as common instead of uncommon for the character that takes it.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
First, only a draconic sorcerer, or a dragon instinct barbarian, or a dragon/spell scaled kobold can become one. The flavor text indicates that other characters can choose it, but the access conditions say that they cannot.
Access is not the same thing as a prerequisite. Access allows you to bypass the GM permission of the rarity system, but is not a hard requirement to have access.
So those are the only ones who can access it without GM permission. If you're none of those it's just like any other uncommon option that doesn't list any access requirement - ask your GM and if you come up with a plausible reason why you learned to be one or he just doesn't care he might say yes.
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First, only a draconic sorcerer, or a dragon instinct barbarian, or a dragon/spell scaled kobold can become one. The flavor text indicates that other characters can choose it, but the access conditions say that they cannot.
This is not correct. Access deals exclusively with Rarity, meaning that it is effectively Common rather than Uncommon for the characters you list, rather than meaning others cannot take it.
It's Uncommon outside those characters, but like any Uncommon option without an Access entry (and there are many of those), that just means you need to talk to your GM about how to access it.
EDIT: Ninja'd twice. Well, I'm glad people are trying to be informative about what Access and Rarity do. That's nice.
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Alright, I should have been more specific. For PFS, it is restricted unless they add this archetype on the ACP boon list. It is NOT there, currently. For non-society players, it is indeed up to the GM. :D
I like scales of a dragon on a strength monk.
I wasn't aware it's just uncommon w/o meeting the what I thought were requirements. Kobold ancestry was awful for a strength monk having the strength flaw and only 6 hit dice.
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It's not very good mechanically.
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I think that it was probably written with non-sorcerers/non-barbarians in normal games in mind (basically, for making draconic characters in classes that don't have draconic options).
Basically, a barb or sorc doesn't need it BECAUSE they already have dragon themed subclasses. This archetype enables you to be a draconic fighter or rogue or paladin and so on.
Not everything is going to be suitable for PFS, but that doesn't mean those things don't have value.
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I like scales of a dragon on a strength monk.
I wasn't aware it's just uncommon w/o meeting the what I thought were requirements. Kobold ancestry was awful for a strength monk having the strength flaw and only 6 hit dice.
Kobolds have a con flaw not strength.
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Dragon Disciple makes a poor chassis for a build because then you think you need to use those (terrible) claws or have spells. Those feats suit only particular builds, and not the same particular builds at that IMO.
But past those early feats, they're mostly cool, opening up options that many classes or Ancestries don't have access to like AoEs, scent, & flight. That's good stuff.
Funnily enough, the classes with access don't need those feats as much as others, so Dragon Disciple's kind of a "super-Kobold" class unless one can get access otherwise (and noting that Kobolds need access too!)
Edit: Typos
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There were a couple of earlier threads:
Sorcerers?
Barbarian?
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I really like Dragon Arcana and maximizing time spent in Dragon form at higher levels.
My kobold druid dragon disciple is looking like it'll be a lot of fun.
Wild Shape will get me into Dragon Form, but since I may not be able to cast spells in that form, Dragon Disciple gets me another opportunity to switch back and forth.
Dragon Scales is really helpful for the battle form AC.
It acts more like a prestige class if you multiclass into sorcerer or barbarian in order to gain access as a monk or druid or what have you.
Here's an added question. If you have Claws of the Dragon and use the Dragon Claws focus spell, are those claws now agile too?
I was told "no." They are treated as two separate attacks.
I'm not so sure.
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Here's an added question. If you have Claws of the Dragon and use the Dragon Claws focus spell, are those claws now agile too?I was told "no." They are treated as two separate attacks.
I'm not so sure.
They are separate.
You have one set of claws which the spell transforms into a different set of claws, a set which has different statistics.It's reasonable for a GM to let you keep your first set of claws and add the Focus Spell's elemental/poison damage w/o transformation of the claws themselves, but that's from graciousness, not from it being a reasonable interpretation of RAI or RAW.
Has dragon disciple ever been a good option though? It does seem like it always falls short.
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In PF1, Dragon Disciple was useful for a few builds, and its HD and ability score boosts were very welcome. With Prestigious Spellcaster, you could get away with quite a bit.
I recommended it for characters with a low stat ancestry that wanted to do things requiring multiple stats.
It was one of the few prestige classes that brought enough to the table to make it enticing.
And in PF1, primary natural attacks could unload great damage. The Dragon Disciple gave up BAB (and therefore iterative attacks), but gained Strength for a comparable attack bonus. With a natural-attacks build, losing the iteratives didn't matter and gaining the Strength's extra damage did.
Also strong for single strike builds (like Spirited Charge, et al).
And self-buffing, natural armor, and more, all good stuff if one could alleviate the costs (fewer iterative attacks and lower caster level). So using spells only to self-buff a natural-weapon build and you're golden.
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I feel like there a couple good options for both Sorcs and Barbs of the Dragon variety, however for both of those it acts more like a light accent to give you the opportunity to change up some of your Dragon stuff. The scale armor, the extra breath blasts, there's all sorts of stuff that work well, but there are also plenty of things that are just pointless for them.
For anyone else, it can be extremely powerful, and it probably SHOULD be Uncommon.
Wings, a Breath Weapon, Scales if you happen to be a low Dex build, transforming into a powerful Dragon form. If you can get that with a Champion, Monk, or Fighter, then you're in business.
Spellcasters too. A Witch or Wizard that doesn't want to dump a ton into Dex can get a huge benefit from those Scales, and be reasonably potent in close combat with that Dragon Form.
Once you get Dragon Form once per hour, it can even have utility outside of combat. People hugely underestimate the potency of being a big powerful dragon travelling through the countryside or turning into a Gold or Silver Dragon in town square to rally the people.
There is a LOT of potential with this Archetype, but it definitely doesn't benefit the Spec or Barbarian nearly as much.
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Once you get Dragon Form once per hour, it can even have utility outside of combat. People hugely underestimate the potency of being a big powerful dragon travelling through the countryside or turning into a Gold or Silver Dragon in town square to rally the people.
How much play actually happens at 18th level though?
Dragon Disciple does feel pretty mechanically underwhelming, with most of the early feat options feeling like traps... but that's fine, take class feats and wait for the fun stuff.
I'm taking pretty much all of the lvl 8+ DD feats on my Kobold Aldori Swashbuckler.
Could I have built a better optimised character? Of course.
Would I have loved the concept or enjoyed playing it as much? Probably not.
I've been trying to decide on a Dragon Disciple build for PFS, I won the charity boon auction for an unrestricted access version of it. Wanted to throw it on a divine caster since Dragon Arcana feels the most useful of the level 4 feats and the least overlap with divine. However the low level spells are still rather useless for divine casters -- true strike good for searing light, but not much else at low levels for divine. Resist energy overlaps spell list. Haste is solid. Spell immunity is tough to use effectively. Everything higher (but that's character level 9+) is pretty good.
Switching over to a primal caster can get much more use out of true strike. The level 2 and 3 are already on your list though.
Had wanted to try it out on a cosmos oracle, but the enfeebled is particularly bad for how it interacts with polymorph. So I think I'm returning to the drawing board for how to use it.