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In 1E it was really only useful for Fortitude saves and hit points. Even so, it was considered pretty important as those two things dramatically increased your lifespan in the game. Still, at higher levels, as save or suck spells and multi-layered magical defenses came online, hit points and damage often mattered less and less.
How does it stand up now with the new mechanics of 2E? Can you get away with an 8 or 10 Constitution with a little care, or must every adventurer worth their salt have at least a 14?
I would say that is something that you don't mind to start low, but that will want to increase on every stat boost.
At low lvls, poisons and diseases are the main problem for fortitudes saves, but if you bring antipoison and antiplague you can fix that somewhat, and the HP boost is not that big at low lvls either.
But as you increase in lvl, fortitude saves become more important because curses and other nasty stuff like Slow and the hit points gained become more substantital.
I find that I don't have room in a lot of builds to start with high con, so most of my builds wind up with 10 or 12. I wouldn't start with 8 though, and agree with Kyrone that you should increase con whenever your ability scores increase.
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Con only adds hp, fort saves, and the amount of time you can hold your breath, I think that's it. In 1e, con determines when you die; the difference between a 10 and 14 could mean the difference between being dropped and being killed. You also have half the hp in 1e than 2e, so con added a higher percent of your overall hp. On the other hand, AC is low in this edition, so hp is kinda your main defense. My experience has been that you will take damage every fight. Saves scale much higher in 2e, so again con is a much lower percent of your overall bonus, however there's not a lot of other ways of increasing your fort save other than upping your con. Of course, comparing to previous editions isn't exactly the best metric to determine what works in this game. So I don't know, but I do want to try an elf with an 8 con and see how it fares.
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Ya, i agree CON is not as important as it was in 1st ed. but do wonder myself about...
Is DEX more important than CON as a save stat? How often do spells and monster abilities target DEX vs CON?
Which classes don't have enough "room" for CON? I know Warpriests are pretty strapped for stats, any other classes that can't afford to boost CON?
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Saves scale much higher in 2e, so again con is a much lower percent of your overall bonus
Yeah, but with the way PF2's math work the percentage it is doesn't matter at all.
Saves exist within a range and DCs of on-level threats are going to be in a comparable range, so +1 to your con modifier is going to have the same value whether your Fort save is +3 and you're saving against DC13 or your fort save is +5000 and you're saving against DC5013.
On the other hand, AC is low in this edition, so hp is kinda your main defense. My experience has been that you will take damage every fight.
Depends on the character and the fight. Having played a 10 Con monk with 50-foot speed, I could Stride in, flurry, and stride out to total cover. Only enemies I ever had to worry about were ones with ranged attacks and/or reactions. There were plenty of fights where I took no damage at all, unlike our our fighters who insisted on standing next to the enemy and trading blows all the time, forcing the cleric to waste lots of resources. My monk did get knocked out from time to time, and ultimately did die, but that only happened when I broke from my core defensive strategy and ended my turn next to an active foe.
I've also played spellcasters who stayed at the edge of their spell range and similarly would rarely take damage.
It's all in how you play, and the types of enemies you fight.
Saves scale much higher in 2e, so again con is a much lower percent of your overall bonusYeah, but with the way PF2's math work the percentage it is doesn't matter at all.
Saves exist within a range and DCs of on-level threats are going to be in a comparable range, so +1 to your con modifier is going to have the same value whether your Fort save is +3 and you're saving against DC13 or your fort save is +5000 and you're saving against DC5013.
I think this is an oft-repeated assumption that doesn't really bear out in practice. That gap does stay pretty narrow throughout the game, but it does close with higher levels more often than not.
You and the enemy both will be getting that scaling +1 each level sure, but you also have the option of increasing your training level and ability scores too, which helps to close that divide by quite a fair bit. If you max something out, you're going to be besting your foes quite often in that particular area. If you put in only token investment, not so much--working exactly as intended.
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Its more about your group that about individual characters. Imagine a group of 4, three of which are monks using your strategy and one is speed 15 dwarf in full plate. Who is going to be hurt most? Its either all play evasive or none has to, else attacks may land on characters you don't want to get hurt. Ideally though being evasive rotates in between players to utilize the groups entire HP reservoire.
Personally I still rate Con high, however as most "take you out of the fight" effects have been dimnished I regard Dex almost equally high now. In PF1 when you ate a fireball, well you ate a fireball. Usually no big deal. In PF2 however, due to how the 4 levels of success work, the difference in between receiving no or double damage is huge, especially given NPC DCs are usually on the higher side.
You can choose not to value Con much if you get to Master or Legendary Fortitude. Otherwise, your chances of critical failure starts to skyrocket and most of the time a crit fail puts you out of the fight (when it doesn't immediately disintegrate you).
The hp part of Con is important but can be mitigated through positioning and defensive maneuvers.
The need for hit points can vary depending on tactics and base class (archer martials vs. melee Sorcerers), and I think everyone should boost their Con to get to 18 eventually (hopefully before 20th though.) Casters with their low h.p. and poor Fort/Ref, maybe even AC, should want these hit points, especially with PF2's common 30' ranges on spells and surprisingly common AoEs including Trample or Engulf. (And melee gishes gonna die without it.)
And Fort saves are like AC Jr., one of your few defenses and with bonuses tightly balanced. Con is the easiest way to get a bonus, not just helping you save but helping you avoid crit fails (which for those whose Fort proficiency lags is a significant risk). And like AC, just because you've patched it up with other sources doesn't mean you don't want it a little higher. Every +1 is significant IMO, much like that -1 AC from Rage looks innocuous until you run the numbers and realize -1 neutralizes a Barb's h.p. advantage.
Of course, much of this depends on the difficulty level, standard ops in battle, and typical enemies. Hard battles on open maps against monstrous enemies? (i.e. Vaults) then you'll need Con more than in social battles of court or city battles with their narrow alleys and building hallways that martials can plug up.
Since I lean toward running monstrous enemies on a difficult setting, this impacts my views on Con.
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The HP are not a super big deal, given the higher HP PF2 characters get by default.
However, Saves are really important, and Fortitude Saves are not exempt from that. Con is not currently the most important stat for any character, that's almost always their Key Stat, and is probably less important than Wisdom across the board (since Wis grants both Will Saves and Perception). For those in Heavy Armor, or some in Medium Armor (most notably Barbarians) it's probably more important than Dex (once you have Dex 12, in the case of Medium Armor), while for others it's less, but that all taken together means it's around the third or fourth most important stat across the board.
So it's never the most important stat, but also never the least important stat.
Generally speaking with the way Pathfinder does ability score increases you're probably best off boosting your primary attribute and then your three save attributes whenever you get a set of ability score increases.
Builds whose primary attribute is a save stat get a little bit of a bonus as a result and builds who have multiple off-stat attribute they want to worry about are going to struggle a bit. Heavy armor throws a bit of a wrench into it too by devaluing dex, but generally I think that holds true (and is part of why trying to do something like use your initial focus spell as a demonic sorcerer is suffering).
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Given the way death/dying was done in 1E, an 8 (or lower) in Con was [almost] a death sentence. You just did not have a large enough cushion to prevent being permanent-killed by an unexpected crit. However, with the dying rules in 2E, death is much less tied directly to Con. I’m comfortable playing my 8Con elven wizard. Sure he has fewer HP than his level but he is rarely targeted so I only have to worry about the rare case when he is targeted, and that strike is a critical, and I’m out of hero points, and the party has no combat healing. A situation that has no occurred as of yet.
Generally, a +1 to your AC (higher Dex) is much more valuable in 2E than a +1 to hit points, even when you account for the per level multiplier. That being said, most of my martial characters have a 14 or higher Con, simply because more hit points is still good and keeps you upright longer. Of course if you start looking at heavy armor options then high Dex is unnecessary and you might as well put those points into Con. Comparatively, none of my non-martials have a Con higher than 12. Those ability points are better utilized in the three “mental” stats that impact skill checks, spell DCs, etc.
Course this all presumes character building from a mechanical approach. I tend to follow a narrative approach and the ability scores simply follow the narrative. So, I could easily see having a low Con martial or a high Con “squishy” if the background encouraged as much. Example, most Champions are built towards plate armor. Mine is a take on a Marvel superhero so he wears light armor and boosts that with higher than “normal” Dex. Given the way 2E balances the item bonus from armor with Dex caps, they all essentially work out to be the same total modifier to AC until/unless you work platemail into the mix.
It is almost always the best thing you can do with your 4th ability score increase every 5 levels. You need a VERY good reason not to raise it at least to the 18 soft cap when it comes to these increases.
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My Elven Ranger/Wizard needed the attribute points in Int and Dex, so Con had to suffer. The low HPs are annoying (I drop to death saves nearly every session), and the very slow healing from having a 10 Con doesn't help. Because the natural healing rate is now your level x Con bonus, I pretty much need either Medicine or magical healing all the time. The other characters get at least 9 HP back each night while I only get 3 per night at 3rd level.
I feel like the HP from con is getting underrated. Disregarding healing, +1 HP per level is almost as good as +1 to AC. Of course healing exists so it should be valued a bit less, but it really is very valuable.
I feel like the HP from con is getting underrated. Disregarding healing, +1 HP per level is almost as good as +1 to AC. Of course healing exists so it should be valued a bit less, but it really is very valuable.
Healing ensures it remains a durable defense, since parties should rightfully feel reluctant to go into the next fight without healing up to most of their HP.
From my experience, most deaths are due to something hitting you, shooting you, or blasting you. HP loss is the bread and butter of how enemies try to kill you. And since HP from con scales wwith level, a con increase is a fixed percent addition to the timer for how long it takes to take you down.
It’s important enough that when they went to design a more balanced stat set they Removed it and swept it’s effects under another stat?
Honestly though, third least important? Personally at least, and specific characters may differ, and are just as likely to drop it more.
The HP is a significantly smaller percent now, and generally you’re not “just barely” knocked to 0. Which is the only time a slightly higher con would help. The fort save part can matter, but then you’re talking about one single line on a character sheet as the only reason to have the stat. Plus in most games I’ve been in so far it’s also the least common save needed, so it feels even less important. Doubly so since most of those rolls will require multiple rolls, so multiple changes to succeed and improve your chances.
I’d avoid having an 8 in it for about the same reason with any other stat. And I’d normally bump it as I level, but I could definitely see reasons to skip it for something else.
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It’s important enough that when they went to design a more balanced stat set they Removed it and swept it’s effects under another stat?
Uh...that variant explicitly notes that Dex, Con, and Wis are the most important scores mechanically. It combines Str and Con to power up Str rather than Con.
And Saves in general are really important in PF2. Not that you absolutely need high amounts in all of them, but it sure helps. The fact you haven't seen a lot of Fort Saves is a specific artifact of your game, not necessarily standard for PF2. It'll vary a lot by campaign and enemies.
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CON bonus to HP is a smaller proportion in a swingier game - the four tiers of success skews the straight comparison between editions.
I think of it like this:
If you have a higher CON, chances are when things get rough, you'll last one round longer.
If you have a lower CON, chances are when things get rough, you'll go down a round early.