I want to play Pathfinder 2E but I don’t know how to port my Ranger over.

[Dargath]

My Ranger is D&D 5th Edition is a Kenku Beast Master Ranger. He is using the alternative class features unearth errata that helps in many ways to facilitate who he is: however he has 3 core pillars of his gameplay: 1) Animal Companion 2) Sniper Fire and 3) Support.

The innate spellcasting feature allows him to heal, bolster allies AC and even take damage for them amongst a few other very useful buffs thanks to the alternative class feature expanded spell list providing several useful spells like Warding Bond among others. He also has healing spirit.

He’s using a Heavy Crossbow with the crossbow expert feat in addition to the sharpshooter feat for a -5 to hit for +10 damage on top of his 1d6 Hunter’s Mark damage which is now freed up from spell casting due to the alternative class feature just making it work for free equal to his wisdom modifiers per day before becoming a spell. The Heavy Crossbow is reflavored as a rifle and I typically take 1-2 shots depending per my turn. Crossbow expert gets around needing to reload.

He also has a pet raven being a beast master which again due to the changes from ACF and the way they reworked scaling does respectable damage as well as being a quite decent distraction which allows other melee party members to move around more easily.

This culminates in a back line support sniper with useful spells and abilities to support the group, quite good damage as well as a useful and meaningful animal companion.

I just have no idea how to make that in Pathfinder 2E and it’s a playstyle I truly enjoy. I’ve written down all of the class feats that complement this build but I just don’t know how to make it all fit.

Feats that support shooting well, whether they’re long ranged sniper based or not:
Legendary Shot
Perfect Shot
Assisting Shot
Point Blank Shot
Double Shot
Parting Shot
Running Reload
Triple Shot
Mobile Shot Stance
Multi shot Stance
Crossbow Ace
Hunted Shot
Hunter’s Aim
Far Shot
Snap Shot
Deadly Aim
Penetrating Shot
Distracting Shot
Targeting Shot
Greater Distracting Shot
Impossible Volley
Archer Dedication
Quick Shot
Archer’s AIM

Feats that are involved in Animal Companion:
Heal Companion
magic hide
Enlarge companion
Animal Companion
Mature animal companion
Incredible animal companion
Specialized animal companion
Masterful Animal Companion
Companion Cry
Camouflage-> Stealthy Companion
Side by Side

Support Type Feats:
Soothing Mist
Scout’s Warning
Warden’s Boon
Double Prey
Shared Prey
Warden’s Guidance

There may be more I missed but those are all of the feats that support shooting, animal companion and helping the party... except I only get 11. Also in my limited experience so far playing a different kind of Ranger... my animal companion sucks and constantly dies so it literally feels like Heal Companion and possibly Magic Hide and Must Takes on top of the improvement path feats which eats up around 7 of those...

I just don’t know how to recreate my character. If anything I guess his main identity is that he’s a sniper assassin, but the story is that he distracts the enemy with his pet bird while his brother (a rogue player in the campaign) sneaks around and back stabs the target while my character provides cover fire by taking out any guards who might be alerted, provides support and healing and generally like they work as a team. The bird is a distraction and gets enemy attention, the Rogue does Rogue stuff, and I shoot any interference and heal his wounds and provide other support to help him survive. I don’t know who to realize this in PF2E.

Can anyone provide some help or useful direction?

[coriolis]

In Pathfinder 2E, what your character can do in encounter mode is largely driven by your class feats. As a martial (a.k.a. noncaster), you get a class feat at 1st level, then at every even level.

I don't think you get enough class feats to optimize all 3 of the "core pillars" you identified for your character. You could spread your choices around as you level up, but that means you will tend to lag behind your fellow party members who have focused their abilities -- you would be the proverbial "jack of all trades, master of none".

My advice would be to pick one pillar as your primary focus, and then a secondary pillar when there are no exciting choices for your primary focus.

[Zapp]

My advice would be not to attempt to directly convert a character to Pathfinder 2.

Instead try this:
* write down a description of your character and his/her skills, using regular English only (no game specific terms or numbers)
* then put the character sheet aside
* then create a brand new PF2 character, using the informal description as guidance and inspiration. Do not look at the old character sheet. Do not attempt to match specific abilities.

Still, if the character was much higher level than 1st I still would not do this until after getting acquainted with the rules. I definitely do not recommend creating a medium or high level character as your very first PF2 experience.

[Dargath]

Zapp wrote:

My advice would be not to attempt to directly convert a character to Pathfinder 2.

Instead try this:
* write down a description of your character and his/her skills, using regular English only (no game specific terms or numbers)
* then put the character sheet aside
* then create a brand new PF2 character, using the informal description as guidance and inspiration. Do not look at the old character sheet. Do not attempt to match specific abilities.

Still, if the character was much higher level than 1st I still would not do this until after getting acquainted with the rules. I definitely do not recommend creating a medium or high level character as your very first PF2 experience.

Yes he’s at around level 8 or 9 in the current campaign. So he’s already got an established type of thing.

However the real concept of the character is a ranged assassin who is a Ranger because that’s the class that has the best tracking skills for hunting down targets marked for assassination.

[WatersLethe]

You can talk to your GM about using Free Archetype rules to get more multiclassing for additional utility.

I find the default rules makes for uncomfortably narrow character concepts.

[Dargath]

WatersLethe wrote:

You can talk to your GM about using Free Archetype rules to get more multiclassing for additional utility.

I find the default rules makes for uncomfortably narrow character concepts.

Well the support part of the character came more out of necessity than anything because we had no other healers at all. The original concept was extremely narrow. He’s a Mafia Hitman with his brother and they work as a team to take out targets. He sends the bird in the drum up a distraction and makes the shot. If the target gets away, being a Ranger, he can track them down and finish the job.

[Zapp]

Dargath wrote:

So he’s already got an established type of thing.

Then my honest advice is to continue, and finish up, the campaign using 5E rules.

"Established" characters are the most difficult characters to port, because "established" so often is code for "relying on specific powers and abilities".

PF2 is just too different from any other version of D&D that I really, really, suggest you keep your fond memories of this character, and go into PF2 with fresh eyes.

Trying to recreate something specific from 5e (or PF1 for that matter) is only going to lead to disappointment, I'm afraid.

I really meant what I said about using a piece of blank paper and using only natural language. Something like your condensed description in your reply to WatersLethe just now, you can create in PF2. A character with specific skills and abilities, nope.

Good luck!

[AnimatedPaper]

Zapp is correct, the best thing you can do is finish in 5e for that character.

That said, one of the toys I use to playtest is that I have a stable of characters from my old college creative writing classes that I port into any system I come into as a way to kick the tires, so to speak. To do that, I use do the exact thing Zapp recommends in his other post, start from a concept of what the character is and then look to see what can emulate it. YOu may or may not get the same feel playing it, so Zapp's advice still stands, but you can learn a lot looking up specific items a little at a time.

For your character, you might want to look at other ways to accomplish your goals. A Ranger is good for your concept; they're all about the single targeting that you seem to like. But if you want to learn more into spells, perhaps that is not your best option. Maybe consider something like an Animal Druid with the Bounty Hunter or Assassin Archetypes? Don't ignore skill feats either; Medicine checks are pretty powerful, and the Survival feats might carry some of the tracking flavor you like.

[Dargath]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Zapp is correct, the best thing you can do is finish in 5e for that character.

That said, one of the toys I use to playtest is that I have a stable of characters from my old college creative writing classes that I port into any system I come into as a way to kick the tires, so to speak. To do that, I use do the exact thing Zapp recommends in his other post, start from a concept of what the character is and then look to see what can emulate it. YOu may or may not get the same feel playing it, so Zapp's advice still stands, but you can learn a lot looking up specific items a little at a time.

For your character, you might want to look at other ways to accomplish your goals. A Ranger is good for your concept; they're all about the single targeting that you seem to like. But if you want to learn more into spells, perhaps that is not your best option. Maybe consider something like an Animal Druid with the Bounty Hunter or Assassin Archetypes? Don't ignore skill feats either; Medicine checks are pretty powerful, and the Survival feats might carry some of the tracking flavor you like.

That’s a really good idea and good advice! I totally forgot about skill feats. In a sense I can probably shore up those abilities. Also I get a feeling I don’t need like 11 feats dedicated to shooting to be good at shooting, especially a certain kind of shooting.

The way my character works is by finding a high perch if possible and staying at the maximum range he reasonably can, however if he gets into melee he uses a pistol (hand crossbow reflavored) and we used a 40k inspired houserule that you can use pistols in melee without provoking opportunity attacks. He also has a short sword just Incase.

So I don’t necessarily need like triple shot or multi target stance and so forth. Just like a couple that emphasize one big hit. I think picking up like a one drop feat for better tracking 2-3 for better shooting, etc might work out plus as you said skill feats.

[Seisho]

It sounds like the full character is only achievable with dual class optional rules (which can be a lot of fun but certainly fit not every campaign)

if you would dual class ranger and druid I see your character happening again, but beyond that its hard, even with a free archetype

I concur with Zapp and AnimatedPaper that you should probably only change when the campaign is over

[Lightwire]

I agree that it’s best to take a very loose interpretation of things when transferring characters and it’s generally best to start with new characters for a system change. I personally like PF2 a lot but many characters in RPGs end up with the mechanics or exactly how something bleeding into their personality.

However if you don’t really have the option, then I’d do the following. Please note that this advice is to try and hit your RP goals while still being mechanically functional.

Priority is sniping, take the Precision ability and various feats for Crossbow. This works doubly since the crossbow feats lean on heavy damage and slipping into stealth. Perfect for a back line sniper. Crossbow ace and running reload. Still works just as well for reskinning only now you’re also farting around the field and your foes don’t know where the shot will come from.

Secondary is the animal companion. To keep this up I expect you’ll need a good portion of your class feats. Getting the free archtype thing going would be an obvious power boost here but it also might be more moving parts than you want to try in your first foray into the system. I’d use the bird here, or a reskinned bat, since it’s support ability particularly fits what you’ve said you use it for. Get it, get it mature, and likely nimble after that. I’d also strongly consider taking the beast master archtype as well. May seem silly since most of the companion feats are already in your class at a lower level, but the archtype lets you have multiple companions. So if one goes down then after the fight you can patch him up. By which I mean swap in another identical one.

And lastly you mentioned support. Which you primarily took up due to a lack of healing. I’d suggest you ignore spells completely here and use your skill feats to master battle medicine and post combat medicine use. It’s way more handy than other editions of D&D type games and your using an entirely different resource to do it. So you save all the feats you might have used to get a heal spell or such. Depending on how deep you want to delve you should still have some free for other aid boosters or something to help you stealth, or even underworld connections.

[The-Magic-Sword]

A regular Tengu Ranger who uses the Precision Edge with a Bow, and takes some animal companion feats.

I'd say that you could maybe find room to take a druid dedication and some basic spellcasting to pick up the magical healing if its really important to you, but I'd actually skip that and just make sure you take the medicine skill for treat wounds, and battle medicine to be able to do some combat healing.

To make sure you're an effective archer, just make sure your dexterity is 18 at level 1, and boosted every time you get the opportunity to raise your stats. If you do that, your class features will actually do way more of the work than you're expecting in keeping you effective.

You'll want some of the feats you listed for archery, but certainly not all of them (some of those are crossbow feats to begin with, and others are hardly essential benefits, or are for specific tricks)

you'll have to season according to taste, I recommend Hunter's Aim at least, and then take it from there, dividing your class feats between some mroe archery tricks and your animal companion.

[Captain Morgan]

So I'll admit rangers are spread a little thin, but I think you can do this. The only essential feats, IMO, are:

1) Animal Companion
2) Crossbow Ace
4) Running Reload

Everything else is optional. You'll probably want to use a normal crossbow instead of a heavy, as it will be hard for this specific character to fit two reload actions into a single turn. You can use some class feats to pick up some spells but could also use Medicine for healing and skill feats for other support. Heck, you might not even need Running Reload if you are really just going to post up in one spot and snipe, but cover rules work pretty differently so you might want a bit of mobility. Plus, often times you will be forced to engage up close, and Running Reload makes your sniper weapon completely viable up close.

Your bird isn't going to be as beefy with that level of investment... but honestly, it was never going to be as beefy as a player character. It won't be great at attacking, but it doesn't need to be for its support benefit. Just have it fly in, give your rogue bro flanking, and have it deal 1d4 bleed plus dazzled. If the enemy takes a swing at your bird, then that is a swing they didn't take at the much more dangerous but fragile rogue. And as a flier, your bird can actually keep out of AoE clusters with the rest of the party much easier.

I don't know about ancestries. I'd guess Tengu would be the closest fit to Kenku? But they also don't have much feat support yet. Consider taking adopted for humans-- natural ambition will net you another class feat. Halflings also get some sweet stealth options for using their allies as cover.

The rest of your feats can be used for whatever you want. You can beef up the bird. You can take some warden spells, or the druid dedication to get wider prepared casting. Hunter's Aim is a decent fight opener at early levels, and Penetrating Shot is a huge boost at higher levels. Far Shot can be used if 240 feet without range penalties isn't far enough, though that is preeeeetty far. Especially when you consider Running do a fighting retreat really effectively. Camouflage is great with running reload, because it lets you become unobserved between shots which makes enemies flat-footed.

[Dargath]

Lightwire wrote:

I agree that it’s best to take a very loose interpretation of things when transferring characters and it’s generally best to start with new characters for a system change. I personally like PF2 a lot but many characters in RPGs end up with the mechanics or exactly how something bleeding into their personality.

However if you don’t really have the option, then I’d do the following. Please note that this advice is to try and hit your RP goals while still being mechanically functional.

Priority is sniping, take the Precision ability and various feats for Crossbow. This works doubly since the crossbow feats lean on heavy damage and slipping into stealth. Perfect for a back line sniper. Crossbow ace and running reload. Still works just as well for reskinning only now you’re also farting around the field and your foes don’t know where the shot will come from.

Secondary is the animal companion. To keep this up I expect you’ll need a good portion of your class feats. Getting the free archtype thing going would be an obvious power boost here but it also might be more moving parts than you want to try in your first foray into the system. I’d use the bird here, or a reskinned bat, since it’s support ability particularly fits what you’ve said you use it for. Get it, get it mature, and likely nimble after that. I’d also strongly consider taking the beast master archtype as well. May seem silly since most of the companion feats are already in your class at a lower level, but the archtype lets you have multiple companions. So if one goes down then after the fight you can patch him up. By which I mean swap in another identical one.

And lastly you mentioned support. Which you primarily took up due to a lack of healing. I’d suggest you ignore spells completely here and use your skill feats to master battle medicine and post combat medicine use. It’s way more handy than other editions of D&D type games and your using an entirely different resource to do it. So you save all the feats you might have used to get a...

This is a really nice write up and sounds like it’s a very close approximation to the spirit of my character. I enjoy that. I had looked at soothing mist and a few other feats like Hunter’s Aim and Far Shot for flavor and solidifying the concept.

In practice the animal companion in 2E do feel very squishy and easy to kill but I may have built mine wrong.

[Cyouni]

My initial guess, from your listing, would be Crossbow Ace, Animal Companion, Running Reload with the Precision edge. If you pick up all the Animal Companion upgrades from there, it'll work out fine, and you can use skill feats to cover stuff like Medicine, Nature, and Survival. With Mature Animal Companion and Warden's Boon, you can also provide precision benefits to other party members.

[Dargath]

Cyouni wrote:

My initial guess, from your listing, would be Crossbow Ace, Animal Companion, Running Reload with the Precision edge. If you pick up all the Animal Companion upgrades from there, it'll work out fine, and you can use skill feats to cover stuff like Medicine, Nature, and Survival. With Mature Animal Companion and Warden's Boon, you can also provide precision benefits to other party members.

Yeah I think I’m going to have to read every skill, every skill feat and really just dig in super deep and see what’s truly relevant.

[Lightwire]

Dargath wrote:

This is a really nice write up and sounds like it’s a very close approximation to the spirit of my character. I enjoy that. I had looked at soothing mist and a few other feats like Hunter’s Aim and Far Shot for flavor and solidifying the concept.

In practice the animal companion in 2E do feel very squishy and easy to kill but I may have built mine wrong.[

An animal companion is going to be about as squishy as a wizard of its level. But as mentioned each hit it takes is one less a party member doesn’t, your party should thank you when your bird eats a crit acid arrow that the wizard didn’t. Plus yours can fly, and do so without you’re direction once it’s mature. So if it’s low just have it leave. That plus the backup options if you want them can give you some real staying power. And don’t forget you can medicine it up between combat same as the rest of the group.

[Dargath]

Lightwire wrote:

Dargath wrote:

This is a really nice write up and sounds like it’s a very close approximation to the spirit of my character. I enjoy that. I had looked at soothing mist and a few other feats like Hunter’s Aim and Far Shot for flavor and solidifying the concept.

In practice the animal companion in 2E do feel very squishy and easy to kill but I may have built mine wrong.[

An animal companion is going to be about as squishy as a wizard of its level. But as mentioned each hit it takes is one less a party member doesn’t, your party should thank you when your bird eats a crit acid arrow that the wizard didn’t. Plus yours can fly, and do so without you’re direction once it’s mature. So if it’s low just have it leave. That plus the backup options if you want them can give you some real staying power. And don’t forget you can medicine it up between combat same as the rest of the group.

Unfortunately the Heal Companion Focus Spell caps out at 30 ft range which is rather antithetical to a sniper who wants to preferably be much farther away than that... haha. However yes there ought to be some skill feats I can take to heal it.

[coriolis]

One thing to mention about animal companions: they get recovery rolls once they hit 0 hit points ("death saves" in D&D 5e parlance). That's something we caught only recently with our group, much to the chagrin of our Animal Druid who went through 3 companions (with 1 week downtime each time) before we found that rule.

[N N 959]

Dargath wrote:

My Ranger is D&D 5th Edition is a Kenku Beast Master Ranger***I just don’t know how to recreate my character.

I am not intrinsically familiar with that stye of Ranger in 5e. However, I had a similar problem to you coming from PF1. When I look at all the efforts posted, there is one commonality:

You can't get there from here.

This may not seem helpful, but I believe it is the best advice anyone can give someone trying to port their Ranger from another game into PF2. I say that because PF2 is not going to give you what you want. If you want to enjoy PF2, especially the PF2 Ranger, you must simply abandon your a priori notions of what a Ranger is and accept what Paizo wants the Ranger to be in PF2.

Based on forum posts, and my own conversations with others, the majority of people who seem to enjoy the PF2 Ranger the most are those who did not play PF1 or did not like the PF1 Ranger. Sure there are exceptions, but even those I will wager, are coming into PF2 eschewing any expectation baggage of another game.

Start over. It's a different game, it's a different system.

Hope that truly helps.

[breithauptclan]

N N 959 wrote:

This may not seem helpful, but I believe it is the best advice anyone can give someone trying to port their Ranger from another game into PF2. I say that because PF2 is not going to give you what you want. If you want to enjoy PF2, especially the PF2 Ranger, you must simply abandon your a priori notions of what a Ranger is and accept what Paizo wants the Ranger to be in PF2.

Agreed. Coming from D&D 3.5, what I call a Ranger, PF2 calls a fighter with Druid Multiclass Dedication and Basic Druid Spellcasting.

[Zapp]

Neither PF2 nor 5E provides players with a Beastmaster option that allows for the classic story where the Ranger finds and raises an orphaned beast. They become best friends and have many adventures together; the fearsome beast rips into melee while the master stays behind to oversee combat, shoot from range or maybe heal.

This ranger never (or almost never) sees his trusted friend and ally die, and the notion of replacing him as he levels up is just as preposterous as replacing the party wizard every now and then.

For this to work in the context of the game, the animal companion absolutely positively can't be the party's weakest chain, since that means the ranger must choose between two equally unacceptable choices:
1) pulling the animal companion out of melee combat since it is too frail to withstand the heat
2) treating the animal companion as a disposable bag of hit points, whose function is to soak damage that a "real" party member otherwise would have to suffer.

I maintain that any class design that doesn't fail these Beastmaster fans per definition needs to be unbalanced, in that the master + pet can't add up to just equal a single character.

The pet needs to be nearly as sturdy and durable in melee combat as any other party member that enters melee combat. (If the pet is only as durable as the party wizard, that does not help, since the party wizard presumably avoids melee!)

And the master can't be crippled compared to other Rangers and other classes, since that makes no sense, and makes for a jarringly unsatisfying play experience.

---

In PF2 terms, the design of the master is pretty okay, simply because all class chassi are made to be functional even without their feats. Putting all your feat choices into the Beastmaster line effectively means you play a feat-less Ranger in other respects, which still leaves you with a Ranger. So that's okay.

But the animal companions are so terribly weak they can't be used in combat for any other purpose to be just that disposable sack of hit points, and not the life-long friend.

I suggest that all Beastmasters gain a mystical link to their Companion that works like a spiritual or mystical Shield Other spell that
1) isn't magical (and thus isn't a target for dispels or antimagic)
2) has its range extended to be practical for a master that might want to send out his beast on hunts, scouts etc. I suggest a minimum of 120 ft
3) can be turned off (and back on again) with a mental action

Even then, the beast probably needs a boost to its staying combat power - calculate AC, saves, defensive abilities and hit points as if it is two levels higher than its master. This applies strictly only to defensive purposes. Its offense, movement, scouting and so on isn't improved.

Yes, this is not balanced. But it isn't terribly overpowered either. Everybody at the table should have to agree to one player playing two characters, and once that's done - let's remember an animal companion is very restricted as a second character. It doesn't talk, take initiative or act independently. It's mostly just a melee brute.

Most importantly, it allows the beast to join the front line without having to be babysat, without creating a weak link. It would finally allow a Ranger to not have to make that nasty choice above, between holding the pet back or sending it in to soak some damage and then die.

The Hunter class from WoW always was one of the more successful implementations of the Beastmaster trope, and without modifications such as these, no version of D&D delivers it.

[Arakasius]

Hunter class from wow however did not have more dps or offensive power than any other petless class. I think the better way to solve this issue is to give pets more evasion style abilities that mitigate damage, not just making them a tank. In the wow case the hunter pet was absolutely useless for tanking, basically hitting a limit of maybe offtanking a minion mob in a 5 man or toss him at a boss to buy you 5-10 seconds before its ripped apart. All things that a pet in PF2 can do.

As for the overall damage yeah sorry that’s just how it is. Ranger pet plus master needs to be balanced with other petless classes. As someone who played a Sacred Huntmaster Inquisitor in PF1 I know how grossly overpowered my tiger was, as he outdamaged most of the characters in the party. Anyway since people aren’t going to be happy with having their character be underpowered you have to let the pet be underpowered. I’d just like that to be made up a bit with defensive and offensive tricks but raw numbers in both ways need to be below characters.

In the game I’m DMing (level 16) we have a druid with a pet that he’s invested several feats into. He doesn’t do great but he can actually do pretty well for distracting mobs or holding the line a bit. What I actually find more annoying is the action economy aspects not the stats aspect.

[Zapp]

Arakasius wrote:

As for the overall damage yeah sorry that’s just how it is. Ranger pet plus master needs to be balanced with other petless classes.

I challenge this notion.

Imo a much better solution is to add a beastmaster class/build that clearly is optional. That is, opt-in. Freed from the shackles, as it were.

Lots of players won't have any issue with their mate running a Beastmaster with a tiger or dire wolf or whatever - there simply is no imbalance or spotlight-stealing to speak of, as long as you consider the beast a trusted member of the group and not just an extension of a "rival PC".

In short, any attempt at achieving balance simply must be underwhelming (for any player that can't stand the idea of having a disposable beast, yet one that's worth bringing into melee). The attempts in the 5e PHB and the PF2 CRB clearly illustrate this failing, this idea that the (sub)class is still worth including in the book despite being balanced.

Best Regards

[Cyouni]

Zapp wrote:

Arakasius wrote:

As for the overall damage yeah sorry that’s just how it is. Ranger pet plus master needs to be balanced with other petless classes.

I challenge this notion.

Imo a much better solution is to add a beastmaster class/build that clearly is optional. That is, opt-in. Freed from the shackles, as it were.

Lots of players won't have any issue with their mate running a Beastmaster with a tiger or dire wolf or whatever - there simply is no imbalance or spotlight-stealing to speak of, as long as you consider the beast a trusted member of the group and not just an extension of a "rival PC".

In short, any attempt at achieving balance simply must be underwhelming (for any player that can't stand the idea of having a disposable beast, yet one that's worth bringing into melee). The attempts in the 5e PHB and the PF2 CRB clearly illustrate this failing, this idea that the (sub)class is still worth including in the book despite being balanced.

Best Regards

No offense, but that's what people said about the wizard (and also the animal companion) in 1e, and it was clearly bunk. Turns out that having things that are more powerful by their mere existence feels bad to other people in the party - who knew! Turns out people don't appreciate their entire role being upstaged by a generic class feature, while the main character also contributes as well.

[lordredraven]

I feel like this is doable by 9th level.

I think the range sniper ish feats are a bit of a trap here. If you want to simulate a 5e crossbow sniper all you need three things

1)Hunt Prey - you get it as ranger default
2) Hunter's Edge - Precision- extra damage
3) Crossbow Ace - Level 1 ranger feat

and probably
4)running reload-- its a great feat but it isn't a must if you don't move alot in combat. If you sit in the back and let your pet move about it's not a must have

So for support spells take the following

5) Druid Dedication - gives you 2 cantrips
6) Basic Druid Spellcasting - gives you a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot

and Lastly an animal companion

7) Animal companion - 1st level ranger feat
8) Mature Companion - 6th level ranger feat

So i would build a tengu something like this

Str 10
Dex 19
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 10

I'm not sure your background or character story
So I have assumed Hunter as background and some meta choices for ancestry

General feats
3) Adopted Ancestry- Human

This lets you take take Natural Ambition at 5th level. It gives you a first level ranger class feat

So your class feats end up looking like this

Class Feats
1) Crossbow Ace
2) Running Reload
4) Druid Dedication
5) Animal Companion (Bonus from Natural Ambition)
6) Mature Animal Companion
8) Basic Druid Spellcasting

Assuming you have normal weapon runes, you will have a +1 striking crossbow at level 9. So 2d8 damage. Add Crossbow Ace and Precision from hunter's edge, you are doing 3d8+2 damage. At this level you could also have a elemental weapon rune. Up to 3d8+2 + 1d6. The damage is highly swingy because its all dice damage, but it's respectable.

The mature animal companion can fight a little on it's own. and with three action economy, your standard turn will be shoot, move and reload, yell at your companion to fight...

And you will still have 2 cantrips, and a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells slot for support.

This hits all pòints of the character.

As you advance, alternate feats between the 3 things, animal companion, sniping, casting

10) Deadly Aim
12) Incredible Companion
14) Expert Druid Spellcasting
and so on....

You won't be a busted caster, or a one shot sniper, or a beast lord that savages monsters with his brutal pets, but he will do all the things he did in 5e.

Hope that helps a little

[Dargath]

lordredraven wrote:

I feel like this is doable by 9th level.

I think the range sniper ish feats are a bit of a trap here. If you want to simulate a 5e crossbow sniper all you need three things

1)Hunt Prey - you get it as ranger default
2) Hunter's Edge - Precision- extra damage
3) Crossbow Ace - Level 1 ranger feat

and probably
4)running reload-- its a great feat but it isn't a must if you don't move alot in combat. If you sit in the back and let your pet move about it's not a must have

So for support spells take the following

5) Druid Dedication - gives you 2 cantrips
6) Basic Druid Spellcasting - gives you a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot

and Lastly an animal companion

7) Animal companion - 1st level ranger feat
8) Mature Companion - 6th level ranger feat

So i would build a tengu something like this

Str 10
Dex 19
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 10

I'm not sure your background or character story
So I have assumed Hunter as background and some meta choices for ancestry

General feats
3) Adopted Ancestry- Human

This lets you take take Natural Ambition at 5th level. It gives you a first level ranger class feat

So your class feats end up looking like this

Class Feats
1) Crossbow Ace
2) Running Reload
4) Druid Dedication
5) Animal Companion (Bonus from Natural Ambition)
6) Mature Animal Companion
8) Basic Druid Spellcasting

Assuming you have normal weapon runes, you will have a +1 striking crossbow at level 9. So 2d8 damage. Add Crossbow Ace and Precision from hunter's edge, you are doing 3d8+2 damage. At this level you could also have a elemental weapon rune. Up to 3d8+2 + 1d6. The damage is highly swingy because its all dice damage, but it's respectable.

The mature animal companion can fight a little on it's own. and with three action economy, your standard turn will be shoot, move and reload, yell at your companion to fight...

And you will still have 2 cantrips, and a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells slot for support.

This hits all pòints of the character.

As you...

Honestly that was my character in 5th edition anyway. He wasn’t a 1 shot turbo DPR Nova sniper, and his beast wasn’t insane it just did respectable damage and didn’t die to a stiff breeze (hell it missed a lot and it only did 1d6+3 slashing damage lol). I think I typically did something like 1d10 + 1d6 (Hunter’s Mark) damage a turn, twice (two attacks) then bonus attack with my bird.

OTOH sometimes I spent whole turns casting spells and stuff and couldn’t attack because people were dying and healing spirit is really good. Either way I wasn’t THE BEST healer or support and I wasn’t top damage I was just “good enough” to get the feeling of a sniper across without tickling monsters. I was respectable.

If this were WoW I’d be in the middle of the DPS meters with some decent but possibly clutch off heals lol. Like a feral Druid that could like instantly battle Rez the tank to prevent a wipe or something.

[Arakasius]

Yeah have to agree with Cyouni here. Wizards should not make skills pointless, my tiger shouldn’t have made the monk in my party cry and so on. Of course they’re never going to get perfect balance, there is too many variables for that. But they should at least try and it is clear they have.

Here is an idea if you want a powerful animal companion. Replace yours with a beast from the bestiary instead of using stats as written for the balanced class. Than you and your group can have your powerful hunter/pet combo and the rest of us don’t have to deal with the issues of pet classes dominating their table. Pet classes on top of their overall power issues at lower level in PF1 also had the issue of slowing pace of play down quite a bit. I appreciate the direction Paizo went here.

I am wondering how paizo deals with summoner especially considered they still plan to make them level nine casters. To make an eidolon really stand out they do need to push their power more than companions, but that will mean lower player power level and I’m curious how they’ll balance it.

[Dargath]

Arakasius wrote:

Yeah have to agree with Cyouni here. Wizards should not make skills pointless, my tiger shouldn’t have made the monk in my party cry and so on. Of course they’re never going to get perfect balance, there is too many variables for that. But they should at least try and it is clear they have.

Here is an idea if you want a powerful animal companion. Replace yours with a beast from the bestiary instead of using stats as written for the balanced class. Than you and your group can have your powerful hunter/pet combo and the rest of us don’t have to deal with the issues of pet classes dominating their table. Pet classes on top of their overall power issues at lower level in PF1 also had the issue of slowing pace of play down quite a bit. I appreciate the direction Paizo went here.

I am wondering how paizo deals with summoner especially considered they still plan to make them level nine casters. To make an eidolon really stand out they do need to push their power more than companions, but that will mean lower player power level and I’m curious how they’ll balance it.

In my experience it basically is three actions: 1) Hunter’s Mark 2) Beast makes 1 attack 3) I attack or possibly 1) I attack 2) I attack again and 3) bonus action beast attacks. Sometimes other spells that take up an action and a bonus action for my bird or the reverse. Wasn’t slow at all but I was always preparing my turn ahead of my actual turn to know what I would do when my turn arrived.

[Arakasius]

Are we talking PF1 or 2? I agree 2 pets are very easy to run. However our long standing PF1 party had a huntsman inquisitor and a summoning wizard and the turns took pretty long with that. My turns were a mix of outflank/paired opportunist crit chains. Also tiger pounce had five attack rolls so even though I knew what I was doing the turns took longer.

[Deriven Firelion]

It would be difficult to make a great Crossbow Ranger, but not impossible. They don't give you a means t load as fast as a bow and you'll fire substantially slower than a bow user. The ranger is very much built to pile on attacks. You'll be ok as a crossbow user, but not as good as a bowman.

Other than that, the ranger is one of the best classes in PF2. They deal a ton of damage, have good saves, and are generally a very well-rounded and fun class that is competitive in many areas of the game. You get a lot of nifty abilities that are actually useful that make you feel like a ranger like wild stride.

I'd recommend switching to bow, but if you really like the crossbow you can take the feats built to make a crossbow wielder decent.

[rainzax]

Welcome!

First off - lot's of good advice here. That said, if you are committed to conversion (and don't let anyone scare you off from it!), I can recommend:

Ancestry: Tengu
Class: Ranger w/ Precision Edge
Ability Scores: DX, CON, WIS

1st: Crossbow Ace
2nd: Beastmaster Dedication
3rd: Adopted Ancestry > Human
4th: Mature Beastmaster Companion
5th: Natural Ambition > Heal Companion
6th: Running Reload
8th: Incredible Beastmaster Companion

(The 3rd and 5th italics let you squeeze one more ((or two more, see option #1 below)) Class Feats into your crowded build)

After That:

Option One
9th: Multitalented > Druid Dedication
Use the rest of your Class Feats to Prioritize Animal Companion, Druid Spellcasting, or Warden Spells

Option Two
10th: Assassin, Herbalist, Medic, or Scout Dedication
Use the rest of your Class Feats to Prioritize Animal Companion, Archetype Feats, or Warden Spells

...

Good luck!

[Captain Morgan]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

It would be difficult to make a great Crossbow Ranger, but not impossible. They don't give you a means t load as fast as a bow and you'll fire substantially slower than a bow user. The ranger is very much built to pile on attacks.

Only if they take the flurry edge. The precision edge was definitely created with crossbows in mind. I don't think crossbow damage is quite as good as a bow, but it is close and has other advantages like longer range, no need to juggle weapons to avoid volley, less need for strength, and Running Reload encouraging tactical movement.

[Reckless]

I feel like a good solution to the "beastmaster quandary" would be to have the animal played by another player as their character-reskinning a monk with appropriate stances would work best probably. That way your "best friend" is neither a class feature nor an imbalancing force against the other players-it is another player. These kinds of stories don't usually have the beast always obeying, or even getting along with the master... They are stories of relationship between two creatures... And that is best represented by two Pcs.

[Elorebaen]

Reckless wrote:

I feel like a good solution to the "beastmaster quandary" would be to have the animal played by another player as their character-reskinning a monk with appropriate stances would work best probably. That way your "best friend" is neither a class feature nor an imbalancing force against the other players-it is another player.

These kinds of stories don't usually have the beast always obeying, or even getting along with the master... They are stories of relationship between two creatures... And that is best represented by two Pcs.

This is an interesting take on the scenario!

[Captain Morgan]

An animal could also make an interesting DM PC to round out a small party, especially one without a tank.

[Thebazilly]

Having seen a Crossbow+Animal Companion Ranger in play, I have to note that it stretches the action economy thin. You have to spread your actions between Hunt Prey, Reloading, Striking, and Commanding your companion. You can't do all of those in 1 turn, and that means you're going to have to give up attacking on some turns to get your companion out of danger, or let your companion take a hit to get an important shot. This eventually frustrated our Ranger so much that he just retrained into using a regular bow.

[Dargath]

Arakasius wrote:

Are we talking PF1 or 2? I agree 2 pets are very easy to run. However our long standing PF1 party had a huntsman inquisitor and a summoning wizard and the turns took pretty long with that. My turns were a mix of outflank/paired opportunist crit chains. Also tiger pounce had five attack rolls so even though I knew what I was doing the turns took longer.

I never played Pathfinder 1E. I was talking about 5th edition D&D.

[Dargath]

Honestly I’m confused by this whole needing to go into adopted ancestry to reach back for 1st level feats. I can’t find anywhere it says you cannot train in a feat from a previous level...? It just says “every even level you gain a class feat” and that’s the whole description. So why, at say level 6, could I not reach back for a level 1 feat I wanted to pick up? Why do I have to get these weird adopted ancestry feats to bounce around my own class feats?

[Arakasius]

Dargath wrote:

Arakasius wrote:

Are we talking PF1 or 2? I agree 2 pets are very easy to run. However our long standing PF1 party had a huntsman inquisitor and a summoning wizard and the turns took pretty long with that. My turns were a mix of outflank/paired opportunist crit chains. Also tiger pounce had five attack rolls so even though I knew what I was doing the turns took longer.

I never played Pathfinder 1E. I was talking about 5th edition D&D.

Oh yeah animals in 5e are also very easy to run too. Just not a lot of complicated rules.

[Gorignak227]

Dargath wrote:

Honestly I’m confused by this whole needing to go into adopted ancestry to reach back for 1st level feats. I can’t find anywhere it says you cannot train in a feat from a previous level...?

You can take a lower leveled feat later.

Adopted ancestry is just a way to grab a class feat with an Ancestry feat->Natural Ambition (human). Its only a 1st level feat but its nice for classes that have a good selection of 1st level feats you want and if you feel class feat strapped for your build.

[Dargath]

Gorignak227 wrote:

Dargath wrote:

Honestly I’m confused by this whole needing to go into adopted ancestry to reach back for 1st level feats. I can’t find anywhere it says you cannot train in a feat from a previous level...?

You can take a lower leveled feat later.

Adopted ancestry is just a way to grab a class feat with an Ancestry feat->Natural Ambition (human). Its only a 1st level feat but its nice for classes that have a good selection of 1st level feats you want and if you feel class feat strapped for your build.

Ooooooh I get it. It’s extra class feats shoved into Ancestry, Incase nothing in your ancestry appeals to you and/or yeah you need a ton of feats to make it work. That’s pretty cool!

[AnimatedPaper]

Zapp wrote:

The pet needs to be nearly as sturdy and durable in melee combat as any other party member that enters melee combat. (If the pet is only as durable as the party wizard, that does not help, since the party wizard presumably avoids melee!)

And the master can't be crippled compared to other Rangers and other classes, since that makes no sense, and makes for a jarringly unsatisfying play experience.

It is possible the SUmmoner might address this particular need. I believe they mentioned being able to get an animal eidolon with primal spellcasting.

[citricking]

Ranger pet does as much damage as a warpriest (with scimitar, shown with and without damage runes at 8 and 15, wolf has no runes)
graph here

[rainzax]

Thebazilly wrote:

Having seen a Crossbow+Animal Companion Ranger in play, I have to note that it stretches the action economy thin. You have to spread your actions between Hunt Prey, Reloading, Striking, and Commanding your companion. You can't do all of those in 1 turn, and that means you're going to have to give up attacking on some turns to get your companion out of danger, or let your companion take a hit to get an important shot. This eventually frustrated our Ranger so much that he just retrained into using a regular bow.

True.

This is mitigated somewhat when the Companion can act independently though.
It's possible too that as the game expands, more feats that have a similar requirement to Perfect Shot's will become available.
Or more cool crossbows like the Alchemical Crossbow.

It's also worth saying that a Ranger who neglects ST and takes up the crossbow will feel less "bad" than a similar Ranger who takes up the bow (which are propulsive). Meaning you can invest in INT / WIS / CHA free of guilt (and have more / better skills)!

[DrakoVongola1]

Zapp wrote:

Neither PF2 nor 5E provides players with a Beastmaster option that allows for the classic story where the Ranger finds and raises an orphaned beast. They become best friends and have many adventures together; the fearsome beast rips into melee while the master stays behind to oversee combat, shoot from range or maybe heal.

This ranger never (or almost never) sees his trusted friend and ally die, and the notion of replacing him as he levels up is just as preposterous as replacing the party wizard every now and then.

For this to work in the context of the game, the animal companion absolutely positively can't be the party's weakest chain, since that means the ranger must choose between two equally unacceptable choices:
1) pulling the animal companion out of melee combat since it is too frail to withstand the heat
2) treating the animal companion as a disposable bag of hit points, whose function is to soak damage that a "real" party member otherwise would have to suffer.

I maintain that any class design that doesn't fail these Beastmaster fans per definition needs to be unbalanced, in that the master + pet can't add up to just equal a single character.

The pet needs to be nearly as sturdy and durable in melee combat as any other party member that enters melee combat. (If the pet is only as durable as the party wizard, that does not help, since the party wizard presumably avoids melee!)

And the master can't be crippled compared to other Rangers and other classes, since that makes no sense, and makes for a jarringly unsatisfying play experience.

--/QUOTE]

Beastmaster is often considered one of, if not the worst classe in 5e

[Arakasius]

Yeah not quite sure here. Ranger is very competitive in martial damage with the other martial characters and the pet is fine and can be good if you invest feats into it. Recent posts here seem to suggest the players want a full powered ranger and a PC equivalent animal companion. That really isn’t going to happen for obvious reasons.

I do DM a high level (16th level PCs) and we don’t have a ranger but we do have a druid with most of the AC feats. It’s a wolf and does decently well in combat against level 15+ level enemies. It’s not going to beat one for sure but it can hold the line for a while and contribute.

[Schreckstoff]

Druid into archer dedication probably achieves a decent enough sniper while having support and animal companion covered

Free Archetype Variant would free you up enough feats to grab all the animal companion feats in addition and considering you used UA and ACF to patch your character together would make sense to use anyway.

You'd stop at expert proficiency with bows but get full spellcasting progression and the best animal companion progression.