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I'm pretty sure 'anti-mech' weapons are just weapons of a level or two higher than the mech's tier.
Either that, or just having the penetration quality.
Also, are line weapons capable of damaging the pilot? It kinda does seem like the case.
Doubtful on the legs. They'd need to be either just flavor, in which case, go ahead and do it, or they'd need to rework various racial bonuses to account for the added legs bonus.Maybe they could rework them into an actual trait for robotic aliens.
I had Titanfall in mind, in which you have regular weapons and anti-Titan weapons
I dunno, heavy weapons that can target a mech's core on impact, or scramble its auxillary systems, or whatever :P
Yeah, I know, it would need to replace more than 1 trait to get these.
Weapons that are specifically anti-mech seem a little too niche. Nobody is going to buy those unless they're also at least as good as regular weapons as well as having anti-mech properties, and if that's the case, they're going to have to be ridiculously overpriced, which is a lot to ask in the starfinder economy for 'just in case there's a mech fight.'
Are anti-machine weapons plentiful or niche? Androids, SROs, robots, mechs and probably nanocytes can all be subjected to the same weaknesses to EMP, for instance. Do we need more? maybe ;)
I'm pretty sure 'anti-mech' weapons are just weapons of a level or two higher than the mech's tier.Either that, or just having the penetration quality.
Also, are line weapons capable of damaging the pilot? It kinda does seem like the case.
I think this was a huge thread a couple years ago. I think it came down to:
Penetrating line weapons, if they damage a wall/break through the hardness of a mech, does the line continue through the wall/mech like the weapon property describes? Or does the fact that they have total cover prevent this for... reasons?
Lot of weird interactions when you start allowing people to shoot through walls/mechs.
It's probably for the best to just say no to line weapons hitting the pilot of the mech if they also damage the mech. Keeps things simple, makes mechs more useful for players, etc.
I'm pretty sure 'anti-mech' weapons are just weapons of a level or two higher than the mech's tier.Either that, or just having the penetration quality.
Also, are line weapons capable of damaging the pilot? It kinda does seem like the case.
I think this was a huge thread a couple years ago. I think it came down to:
Penetrating line weapons, if they damage a wall/break through the hardness of a mech, does the line continue through the wall/mech like the weapon property describes? Or does the fact that they have total cover prevent this for... reasons?
Lot of weird interactions when you start allowing people to shoot through walls/mechs.
It's probably for the best to just say no to line weapons hitting the pilot of the mech if they also damage the mech. Keeps things simple, makes mechs more useful for players, etc.
While it probably is for the best to maybe ignore that interaction with mechs, that is an odd interpretation to have with the quality since that's what it's meant to do.
Shouldn't that be concealment rather than cover at that point? The attack went through the wall and must continue. I don't think anyone will contest that if there were another wall behind it, the attack would also strike the wall, too.
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I encountered this problem before in a session, but with PCs attacking a vehicle. Player had a line penetrating weapon with adamantine rounds.
Ruled that the player has to reduce the obstacle's hit point total to 0 if they wish to have the line effect to continue forward. In this case, the obstacle is the vehicle (the vehicle's hit points).
Line effects are blocked by obstacles (walls, doors, etc) unless there is no obstacles to block them. The special material and penetrating effect just reduces the hardness and makes it easier to destroy the obstacle. If the obstacle is destroyed by the line effect, the line effect would continue forward.
If a mech was reduced to 0 hit points, it be the same as a wrecked vehicle. That line effect should reach the operators.
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The question is, where would the operators be located in the mech? In a vehicle, that's a easy answer to determine which square on the map grid. Does the line effect only inflict damage to one operator, two operators, or all operators?
The question is, where would the operators be located in the mech? In a vehicle, that's a easy answer to determine which square on the map grid. Does the line effect only inflict damage to one operator, two operators, or all operators?
Oh... That's a nice find. Cockpits can be like fighter jets, cruisers or any combination.
Ruled that the player has to reduce the obstacle's hit point total to 0 if they wish to have the line effect to continue forward. In this case, the obstacle is the vehicle (the vehicle's hit points).
Line effects are blocked by obstacles (walls, doors, etc) unless there is no obstacles to block them. The special material and penetrating effect just reduces the hardness and makes it easier to destroy the obstacle. If the obstacle is destroyed by the line effect, the line effect would continue forward.
Well... actually, not to beat a horse that's been dead for two years, but line weapons simply have to do damage to continue past an obstacle:
This weapon fires a projectile in a straight line that pierces through multiple creatures or obstacles. When attacking with such a weapon, make a single attack roll and compare it to the relevant Armor Class of all creatures and objects in a line extending to the weapon’s listed range increment. Roll damage only once. The weapon hits all targets with an AC equal to or lower than the attack roll. However, if an attack fails to damage a creature or obstacle hit in the line (typically due to damage reduction or hardness), the path is stopped and the attack doesn’t damage creatures farther away. A line weapon can’t damage targets beyond its listed range. If you score a critical hit, that effect applies only to the first target hit in the line, and you roll the critical damage separately. If multiple creatures are equally close, you choose which one takes the effects of the critical hit. A line weapon doesn’t benefit from feats or abilities that increase the damage of a single attack (such as the operative’s trick attack).
Which means you can shoot through cover with a line weapon... which means you can shoot through walls, which means you should be able to shoot through a mech cockpit.
I'm not saying it's a good idea to allow that sort of thing as a GM, in fact I say it's a bad thing, but that's rules as written.
This teaches me to pay better attention to a dead beaten horse.
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Found the ruling in the playtest. So the cockpits are located in the helm of the mech.
Enemies that wants to harm the mech and the operator would need to declare a called shot and spend 3 PP to attack that location.
So if the enemy uses a plasma rifle and fires at that location, they could harm the mech and all of the operators. In fact, if they deal enough damage to bring the mech to system failure, they could deal additional damage to half operators (rounded up) in the helm.
Another interesting thing. A PC not in a mech can't called shot a mech's helm.
Does that mean their line weapons can't harm the operators? And instead just harms the mech?
Another interesting thing. A PC not in a mech can't called shot a mech's helm.
Does that mean their line weapons can't harm the operators? And instead just harms the mech?
I would absolutely rule it that way. I also probably wouldn't allow a mech called shot to hit the operators with a line weapon... but I'd have to think on that one.
I would absolutely rule it that way. I also probably wouldn't allow a mech called shot to hit the operators with a line weapon... but I'd have to think on that one.Another interesting thing. A PC not in a mech can't called shot a mech's helm.
Does that mean their line weapons can't harm the operators? And instead just harms the mech?
Wouldn't adding called shots for mechs mean that these should be added for creatures as well?
In the section of Special Mech Actions.
Called Shot (Standard Action): The mech expends either 1 PP or 3 PP and makes an attack against a single mech. If the attack’s damage causes system damage, the operator can choose which component
takes system damage, except the power core or helm; if the mech expended 3 PP, the operator can select any component to take the system damage.
In the section of System Failure
Helm: The helm represents the cockpit or control center where the operators reside, and the helm’s system failure doesn’t directly impede the mech but instead threatens one or more operators. When the helm gains the malfunctioning condition, half of the operators (rounded up) take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d8 damage times the mech’s tier; they can attempt a Reflex saving throw to halve the damage (DC = 15 + half the mech’s tier). When the helm gains the inoperable condition, each of the operators takes the bludgeoning damage above (Reflex half). In addition, the operators’ controls become unreliable; the first time each turn that an operator uses a full action to pilot the mech, there is a 50% chance that the mech does not gain an action. Either effect lasts until the beginning of the mech's next turn.
Technically speaking, called shots are not a thing, period. There are specific maneuver that alter how location-based criticals work, but there is no way to just go "I make an attack, and it automatically hits this spot and does extra effects".
I agree, the called shot action only allows you to pick a component for system damage.
So PCs/NPCs on the ground can't use line weapons to attack the mech's operators.
But what about mechs wielding line weapons attacking other mechs? Do their line weapons attack the mech and the operators?
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Sorry for butting in on everyone's conversations, but I did want to list some suggestions in line with the thread's spirit. I apologize in advance if some of these were mentioned or addressed already.
Specific things:
1. Thundergauntlet slot # is possibly incorrect. Wielding two of them in order to use their ability would require 4 upper limb slots, which no upper limbs have.
2. As mentioned before, heavy biped and hoverpad legs are missing HP and HP progression.
3. I feel as though the laser rifle should be able to be wielded by the upper limbs. As of now, it can only occupy frame slots.
4. The "low" damage of the alloyed sword seems a little too low.
5. The Furyjumper frame's operator count seems to be a typo.
General ideas:
1. Unarmed strike for mechs?
2. Other long-range weapons (sniper rifles, etc.)?
3. Burrowing mechs?
4. Upgrade for increasing STR?
5. Transforming mechs (a la Macross)?
6. Combining mechs (a la Getter Robo)?
7. Living mechs (a la Evangelion)?
8. Rocket punch (a la Mazinger Z)?
9. Funnels/Drone weaponry (a la Gundam)?
10. Secondary arms/Sub arms (a la Gundam)?
11. System for piloting a mech with the operator's movements (a la Daimos/G Gundam)?
12. Something that allows certain class features (gear boosts, combat feats, etc.) to be used with a mech?
13. Possibly changing the operator count of Gargantuan mechs to something like 1-3 or 1-4? (Many Gargantuan mechs in fiction do not require more than one operator, but benefit from more)
Sorry for butting in on everyone's conversations, but I did want to list some suggestions in line with the thread's spirit. I apologize in advance if some of these were mentioned or addressed already.
It's what this thread is for :)
At best, some of your suggestions are echoing others ^_^
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* Frames built from radically different materials, for instance:
- Corpse-like/Necromech for Eox
- Plant-like/Biomech for Castrovel
- Dragon-like/Dracomech for Triaxus
- Elemental-like/Solarmech for the Sun/Oceanmech for Bretheda
- Aberrant-like/Eldermech for Aucturn
- Wreckage-made/Junkmech for Akiton
But yeah, mechs made from plant matter, bones, dragon parts, elemental flesh, aberration parts and discarded materials.
That might sound crazy, but...
* Expanding the weapon system to break it down to their base components, in order to create even more weapons.
For instance, let's say I want a Flame Sword. I should be able to rework the Plasma Sword into a Flame Sword at a different Cost. Let's say I want a Plasma Scythe, then I should be able to take the Scythe and slap the Plasma energy, but at a higher Cost.
See what I mean? Maybe all mech weapons should start as analog/ballistic (dealing B, P or S damage only) and then you add energy types, qualities or even increase the damage amount (Low to Medium to High) at a scaling Cost, giving you a wider range of weapons, just like you have a wide range of mech parts.
That would allow you to create whatever items you wish... and would probably save Paizo some time coming up with custom items :P
Add some other weapons like Beam Scythes, Beam Trident, Beam Glaive, and Magma weapons (Darling in the FRANXX). That would make it better. Maybe also make it possible for Missile Batteries to be held like the Pisces or Aries suit from Gundam Wing. What about adding a Twin-Beam cannon (Like Wing Zero) but does Extreme damage, Line, and the ability to split into two to be Wing Zero.
Add some other weapons like Beam Scythes, Beam Trident, Beam Glaive, and Magma weapons (Darling in the FRANXX). That would make it better. Maybe also make it possible for Missile Batteries to be held like the Pisces or Aries suit from Gundam Wing. What about adding a Twin-Beam cannon (Like Wing Zero) but does Extreme damage, Line, and the ability to split into two to be Wing Zero.
Missile batteries are already included. I want a sniper equivalent weapon.
I know that missile batteries are a thing, but maybe also have them holdable like the missile pod held by the Aries suit.
I like the idea people have said about modifing the weapons to expand the choices. As it has been said, more frame/limbs would always be nice to see. I think a Kasathan based Mech would want to be 4 armed.
It would be nice to see a benefit from Classes as an option, like a Solar emmiter as a specialized upgrade to add a designated Solar style weapon. In game terms, basically something like class specific upgrade modules which give an extra option. The Solar emmiter might allow an extra melee weapon on a Mech piloted by a Solarian.
I wouldn't want the class to be a huge effect on the Mechs, as I see it as a way for a player who has a support class to somehwere where they can be a combat monster. Space combat already ties your character down to certain jobs (depending on build). My example, Mystic. Land based, I am there to keep people fighting with the occasional range shot. Space, I usually end up as a science officer. With Mechs, it could be a way to scratch that itch to just beat the enemies with a big stick or follow in the foot steps of our Soldier and unload ranged Death!
I don't think they specifically need a new system for the Mechs like ship combat. For advanced players, it might be fine learning a 3rd system for the game but not everyone is going to be so keen to have to learn a new manner of play. Think of rookie players, or new people to RPGs, telling them they need to learn 3 different methods of combat is going to be daunting.
I would like to see the differant styles as mentioned, Bio organic, plant based, Necro and the such. Though riding around in a huge corpse might not be everyones cup of tea.
Hopefully they add a few example frames for players to use, some premade Body/Leg/Arm combos with stat lock for faster pick up and play, just need to pick weapons.