2 - Sixty Feet Under (GM Reference)


Agents of Edgewatch

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This is a spoiler-filled resource thread for GMs running the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path, specifically for the second adventure, "Sixty Feet Under."


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I love the Vudra section in this book's toolbox! Nice to see a different area of the world covered.

For GM's looking ahead, the players don't travel to Vudra, but they fight cultists from Vudra, who live in "Vudratown" an area in Absalom's Foreign Quarter.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That monster of a dungeon out of nowhere looks amazing.

Also, I usually run milestone leveling but this AP might require XP tracking! This book starts midway through level 4 and ends partway into level 9...

I've really enjoyed looking through the balance of encounter types so far. The Copper Hand stuff is a little MacGuffiny, but the bank robbery looks a hoot. I think the biggest challenges here will be the tone changes. Definitely adds to the shock value though!

Anyone have a good resource on this Fiendflesh Siege?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Oh yeah, Chapter 4 is all dungeon crawl and combat! After the party has been focusing on skill use and de-escalating combats, this chapter is brutal in comparison!

The Fiendflesh Siege happened a few years ago, an was played out as a Gencon, multi-table Society Scenario.

https://paizo.com/products/btpy9tld?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-900-Assault -on-Absalom


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Moximus wrote:

Oh yeah, Chapter 4 is all dungeon crawl and combat! After the party has been focusing on skill use and de-escalating combats, this chapter is brutal in comparison!

The Fiendflesh Siege happened a few years ago, an was played out as a Gencon, multi-table Society Scenario.

https://paizo.com/products/btpy9tld?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-900-Assault -on-Absalom

Link!

Thank's Moximus! I was going to ask the same thing.

I absolutely love the random Dark Tapestry creature in the catacombs. Eldritch horror? I'm into that. More please.


Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Moximus wrote:

I love the Vudra section in this book's toolbox! Nice to see a different area of the world covered.

For GM's looking ahead, the players don't travel to Vudra, but they fight cultists from Vudra, who live in "Vudratown" an area in Absalom's Foreign Quarter.

You saved me a post where I just typed out Vudra repeatedly in all caps.


GayBirdGM wrote:
Moximus wrote:

Oh yeah, Chapter 4 is all dungeon crawl and combat! After the party has been focusing on skill use and de-escalating combats, this chapter is brutal in comparison!

The Fiendflesh Siege happened a few years ago, an was played out as a Gencon, multi-table Society Scenario.

https://paizo.com/products/btpy9tld?Pathfinder-Society-Scenario-900-Assault -on-Absalom

Link!

Thank's Moximus! I was going to ask the same thing.

I absolutely love the random Dark Tapestry creature in the catacombs. Eldritch horror? I'm into that. More please.

Speaking of the Dark Tapestry creature, its stat block says it has 320 HP?! Is that correct? Most other level 10 creatures have below 200 HP. It seems really high.

Liberty's Edge

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Tyrroicese does indeed have a lot of HP, but also very low AC for its level and a relevant Weakness many PCs will have access to. I mean, every Good attack that hits is effectively -10 from that HP total, and its Perception is also low, a real disadvantage compared to most monsters (who tend toward high Perception). These kinds of tradeoffs are pretty normal, so I'd say its stat block is probably accurate.

The only really outrageous thing is the immunities, which might well be excessive (given that it's outright immune to every weapon damage type except bludgeoning, as well as being immune to critical hits).

I'd be inclined to say you should definitely inform any PC who makes a Recall Knowledge check and succeeds that the creature is clearly amorphous and unaffected by piercing or slashing. Not knowing that could easily make this a party killer.


On the other hand, if a resistance or immunity never comes into play because you always tell your characters beforehand, something is off...

A group is totally expected to make an attack that is completely wasted, and immediately try something else.

Being immune to slashing and piercing shouldn't be a party killer. It should at most negate exactly two (2) successful attacks, one slashing and one piercing.

And if the party's fighters didn't think to carry blunt weapons as backup... well, at least the new characters will have learnt a valuable lesson in how to play :-) Despite the smiley, I odn't mean to be flippant. I mean that you need to learn this skill later if not sooner.

It's okay for a GM to go easy on a group if that group is still in the initial learning stages of the game, and if doing otherwise would turn those players off from the game.

But for regular players, going easy on them now just means they will fall foul later. Expecting to always be able to get along with only a single weapon (and a single damage type) just isn't practical.

Liberty's Edge

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Zapp wrote:

On the other hand, if a resistance or immunity never comes into play because you always tell your characters beforehand, something is off...

A group is totally expected to make an attack that is completely wasted, and immediately try something else.

Being immune to slashing and piercing shouldn't be a party killer. It should at most negate exactly two (2) successful attacks, one slashing and one piercing.

I did say you should only tell them on a successful Recall Knowledge check, not just automatically. I'd put on the same level of importance as a troll's regeneration, which is also revealed on a successful Recall Knowledge.

And it's potentially more attacks than that depending on how attacks are described and what conclusions PCs draw. I can easily see them assuming things other than blanket immunity to 2/3 of the weapon damage in the game. They could assume it can spend a reaction to negate damage, they could assume you need a special material and try their backup cold iron weapon instead of their backup bludgeoning one, and so on. If anyone has Bludgeoning as a primary damage type, that'll provide a clue real early, but that's not gonna be true for every PC group.

That could easily consume at least a few people's turns completely as different players try different things, and if it does, well, the encounter is already with a Level +3 foe, and those can be TPK machines even without wasting whole turns on things that auto-fail.


Let's not stare ourselves blind at this specific encounter.

My point is that a pathfinder 2 player will eventually realize the need to carry at least one backup weapon, and that there is real value in ensuring every damage type is covered by the group (ideally by at least half its members)...


Zapp wrote:


And if the party's fighters didn't think to carry blunt weapons as backup... well, at least the new characters will have learnt a valuable lesson in how to play :-)

This is when you pick up the fighter and use them as a blunt instrument.

"Where are we going to find a block of wood?"

"Let's use our heads!"

"No, I didn't mean literally ... wait ... "

Vigilant Seal

My players have finished the first book and we're eagerly getting ready to start running book 2.

As I'm reading through chapter 3, I'm left wondering what the intended means of clearing/progressing through the Copper Hand Hideout is.

The beginning states that it would be dangerous if not deadly to fight everyone, with an alarm (pipe) that can be sounded to alert the rest of the hideout. However, the sheer number of rooms and guards suggests that it would end up being nigh-impossible to sneak/disguise the party all the way through the hideout.

Each room also discusses how to run combat in the room, so is combat actually the intended method?

If somehow the players sneak all the way through, the recommended milestone progression suggests a level prior to this (stopping the bank robbery) and one after this. While I'd love to reward extremely clever plans/roleplaying, it seems like it'd be awfully quick.

How are y'all planning to run the Copper Hand Hideout?


Kazimir_980 wrote:
My players have finished the first book and we're eagerly getting ready to start running book 2.

Just wondering - how much play time did you take to go through book 1? I'm working through this with my group right now, and I'm trying to get a sense of what to expect. I'm new to Pathfinder, so I don't have a great frame of reference.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LarsC wrote:
Kazimir_980 wrote:
My players have finished the first book and we're eagerly getting ready to start running book 2.
Just wondering - how much play time did you take to go through book 1? I'm working through this with my group right now, and I'm trying to get a sense of what to expect. I'm new to Pathfinder, so I don't have a great frame of reference.

I haven't played this one yet but I'm about halfway through Age of Ashes right now.

It comes down to preference, really. Generally speaking, I think a level should be gained every 8-12 hours of gameplay or so. My preference is on the longer side--I prefer each level to take around 4-5 sessions (we go for around 3 hours at a time). Some tables play long sessions every week and some others speed-run content. For most groups, finishing one book in an AP in a month is absolutely breakneck and you shouldn't count on that being your experience.

But really it's all up to you. I would definitely not push to have new players level every session or two--depending on their RPG experience, that can be massively overwhelming.


LarsC wrote:


Just wondering - how much play time did you take to go through book 1? I'm working through this with my group right now, and I'm trying to get a sense of what to expect. I'm new to Pathfinder, so I don't have a great frame of reference.

As someone who has run Age of Ashes Book 1 to 3/4 completion and Extinction Curse Books 1, 2 and 3 (as well as Curse of the Crimson Throne's books 1, 2 and 3, but that's 1st ed), I would say: Depends. Wildly. How often are you playing, how long are the sessions, how on track are players, did you sneak in additional content, how much RP are you using? All these can either render it about a chapter every two sessions, or as long as months pouring over one book. It can even vary from book to book. Book 3 of Extinction Curse was fast, I would say maybe two sessions per chapter. In comparison, we've spent about three sessions in chapter one of Book 4, and we are far from over.

Extinction Curse Spoilers:
At the end of the third session we had just arrived at the Fortune Hall, picked a fight with a skeleton in a stable and then did a funeral scene afterwards after a character got killed. We haven't even entered the hall.

There's honestly no easy answer, sorry.


Anyone think Heaven's Thunder is kinda broken? 1 Action to add ~ level damage to all of your unarmed or monk weapon attacks for this round and the next.

Vigilant Seal

LarsC wrote:
Kazimir_980 wrote:
My players have finished the first book and we're eagerly getting ready to start running book 2.
Just wondering - how much play time did you take to go through book 1? I'm working through this with my group right now, and I'm trying to get a sense of what to expect. I'm new to Pathfinder, so I don't have a great frame of reference.

We ended up playing about 7 sessions that ranged from 3-6 hours each.

Note that my group is only 3 players, so I'd end up weakening some monsters (especially at the zoo--those creatures are HARD for a level 1 party, let alone one that is low on members).

Additionally, my group is a little bit less optimized in how they build their characters, preferring quirky roleplaying to straight combat grinding. There were several less-important fights that I ended up omitting in many of the areas (got rid of a few of the kobolds at the pagoda, didn't bother with the hyenas at the zoo).

As a result we didn't necessarily go through 100% of the content in the book, but we got the gist of things. Chapters 3 and 4 of this module will be very interesting for them, since it's more or less a huge dungeon crawl. We shall see how the pacing ends up going. I can already see myself omitting a lot of the random rooms with copper hand members in chapter 3.


Kazimir_980 wrote:


We ended up playing about 7 sessions that ranged from 3-6 hours each.

Got it! Thanks, everyone, for all of the insights on this. It's really interesting to get a sense of how different groups run though this sort of content.

- Lars


Kazimir_980 wrote:

My players have finished the first book and we're eagerly getting ready to start running book 2.

As I'm reading through chapter 3, I'm left wondering what the intended means of clearing/progressing through the Copper Hand Hideout is.

The beginning states that it would be dangerous if not deadly to fight everyone, with an alarm (pipe) that can be sounded to alert the rest of the hideout. However, the sheer number of rooms and guards suggests that it would end up being nigh-impossible to sneak/disguise the party all the way through the hideout.

Each room also discusses how to run combat in the room, so is combat actually the intended method?

From reading the module, its writers intend for the heroes to infiltrate the Copper Hand base, making each room a puzzle to solve "how to proceed without getting whomever to start banging on the pipes".

But that doesn't mean they expect heroes to make it all the way!

Pathfinder is after all a game about combat. Of course every encounter has combat stats! Sooner or later the players will itch to start fighting anyway.

Quickly looking over each room, I note that up until C9 every encounter has been "low" or "trivial" (or not even a combat encounter at all), with C7 as the exception. (And since spellcasting enemies are noticeably softer than other creatures of their level, C/ is likely an "easy moderate" fight.)

Then C9 is specifically described as not necessarily leading to a combat if the heroes have had a hard time of it.

Leaving only C13 as a probably-unavoidable fight of any real caliber. (Still only moderate, though).

This means that when the module says "it would be dangerous if not deadly to fight everyone" they exaggerate for dramatic effect. The heroes should be able to reach C16 without expending all their resources beforehand. And not even there is a fight inevitable.

Unless the GM combines the forces from two rooms, of course. But that can't really happen in Pathfinder 2, since it so very easily turns into a TPK.

Quote:
If somehow the players sneak all the way through, the recommended milestone progression suggests a level prior to this (stopping the bank robbery) and one after this. While I'd love to reward extremely clever plans/roleplaying, it seems like it'd be awfully quick.

You have to decide where your concern is, you know :)

On one hand you're worrying there's too much combat, on the other that there isn't enough combat!

The answer is simple:

If your players enjoy combat, there's plenty.

If your players enjoy talking, they can do that instead.

It's only if you have roll-players who want to resolve social challenges with a quick and simple skill check the adventure will be over quickly.

But that sounds like a manufactured problem. If your players don't like to role play out social challenges in any detail, then have them game play out combat challenges in great detail instead.

And if your player relish the module's opportunities for peaceful resolution, you should be able to assume they want to do it more elaborately than by simple die rolling. Talking! Acting! Drama!

Vigilant Seal

Zapp wrote:


From reading the module, its writers intend for the heroes to infiltrate the Copper Hand base, making each room a puzzle to solve "how to proceed without getting whomever to start banging on the pipes".

But that doesn't mean they expect heroes to make it all the way!

Pathfinder is after all a game about combat. Of course every encounter has combat stats! Sooner or later the players will itch to start fighting anyway.

Quickly looking over each room, I note that up until C9 every encounter has been "low" or "trivial" (or not even a combat encounter at all), with C7 as the exception. (And since spellcasting enemies are noticeably softer than other creatures of their level, C/ is likely an "easy moderate" fight.)

Then C9 is specifically described as not necessarily leading to a combat if the heroes have had a hard time of it.

Leaving only C13 as a probably-unavoidable fight of any real caliber. (Still only moderate, though).

This means that when the module says "it would be dangerous if not deadly to fight everyone" they exaggerate for dramatic effect. The heroes should be able to reach C16 without expending all their resources beforehand. And not even there is a fight inevitable.

Unless the GM combines the forces from two rooms, of course. But that can't really happen in Pathfinder 2, since it so very easily turns...

Thanks for the insights! Yeah, I guess toward the end there I was worrying about two different things and just trying to make sense of the chapter as written.

I really like the idea of the individual "sections" being challenges of "can the players make it past without raising the alarm?" I don't know why I didn't look at it that way (in my mind it was a much more binary pass/fail system).

I greatly appreciate the advice!


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You're welcome.

I could add I do see the concern (when first reading the chapter introduction).

That the heroes *must* infiltrate the base to a fair extent, or the combined onslaught of the alerted thieves will be too much.

But that would be forgetting that this is "just" yet another Adventure Path. There aren't more foes here than in any other level of any random Adventure Path! So even if you ignore social interaction entirely and just treats the level as any old dungeon bash, you will still do just fine.

If the adventure had intended the heroes to *have* to succeed at the social challenges - at least to some extent - the writers would have had to change the AP formula.

And as the countless discussions regarding Agents of Edgewatch have revealed over and over again, that is just not what Paizo is doing. There just wouldn't have been any controversy if people just realized there isn't actually anything new or groundbreaking here (unless your GM makes it so): This level can be played just like any old regular Adventure Path, and that's likely how Paizo's customers want it, because why would Paizo otherwise stick so rigidly to the exact same format?

I simply think the people complaining the loudest aren't Paizo's customers. Why? Because they envision much more than what's actually there - and what *can* be there if you know the format of the APs. Paizo's actual customers, meanwhile, aren't ready for a level where you *will* be overwhelmed by the monsters unless you do something else than just butt heads with them. At least Paizo clearly doesn't think so, judging by the actual 2E content.

Again, good luck with your game!

Silver Crusade

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Yo, actual Paizo customer here.

The controversy is because they’re trying to run an adventure path, while also being cops. Claiming there wouldn’t be one if people would just play it like a normal adventure cause there’s nothing “different”, to paraphrase, is completely disingenuous and attempts to cover up why exactly people are pissed.

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, also speaking as a Paizo customer, the issue is that, particularly in terms of how gaining money is handled, the fact that the PCs just steal everything that isn't nailed down and shake people down for money for breaking minor laws or actually making them do their jobs is really disturbing given that the PCs are cops, and how reminiscent of real corrupt cops all those behaviors are.

Yes, most of that is fairly typical of how PCs normally behave in APs, but just by making them cops without changing the behavior you immediately get some real unfortunate complications that, especially in the context of Black Lives Matter and the current calls for police reform, make a lot of people understandably really uncomfortable.

I don't want to derail this thread with a giant discussion of this issue and how to fix it (the proper place for that is the Chapter 1 thread, and we've had it), but just saying 'oh, that's not a real problem' is dismissive and inappropriate.


Rysky wrote:

Yo, actual Paizo customer here.

The controversy is because they’re trying to run an adventure path, while also being cops. Claiming there wouldn’t be one if people would just play it like a normal adventure cause there’s nothing “different”, to paraphrase, is completely disingenuous and attempts to cover up why exactly people are pissed.

Assuming this is directed at me: By reading my other posts on the subject you will realize I am certainly not trying to cover anything up.

In this thread I might have expressed myself slightly simplisticly. I was focusing on the subject matter at hand.

Cheers


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition Subscriber

Quick question - in C10, the player's can find a shifting armor rune, mentioned as such in both the text and the treasure for the chapter.

The problem is, there's no such thing as a shifting armor rune! There's a shifting weapon rune, but the player's already would have (hopefully) found one, on a +1 striking shifting low-grade cold-iron longsword, and I like my treasure to be at least somewhat unique, so I don't want to just give them another shifting weapon property rune. What do you guys suggest/what was meant for this instead of the shifting rune?


RoseTheLesbian wrote:
What do you guys suggest/what was meant for this instead of the shifting rune?

Shifting is a level 6 rune worth 225. So, a Striking rune (65) and a fearsome rune (160) equal its value. If you don't mind going up, the level 8 elemental runes are close on the list, but twice as valuable.

If you think it was meant to be an armor rune, Ready is a level 5 rune worth 200 gp. Almost the same, even if the ability is one that players don't usually seem excited for.

Third option. Let it be a shifting armor rune. A heavy armor user might appreciate being able to change armor types to avoid armor check or speed penalties.

Activate [Single Action] Interact; Effect The armor takes the shape of another armor that the wearer is proficient in. The armor’s runes and any precious material it’s made of apply to the armor’s new shape. Any property runes that can’t apply to the new form are suppressed until the item takes a shape to which they can apply.


RoseTheLesbian wrote:
What do you guys suggest/what was meant for this instead of the shifting rune?

Honestly, since players tend to stick with one armour type, I'd assume it would be just about changing the appearance. So, maybe Glamered Property Rune?


why is the Tyrroicese resistant to evil? it can't take evil as it's evil itself!


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just noticed that there's 2 vaultbreaker oozes in room C6, but both are large and it's a 3x3 room!


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
dharkus wrote:
just noticed that there's 2 vaultbreaker oozes in room C6, but both are large and it's a 3x3 room!

That's something that I noticed Paizo tends to do, put large+ creatures in rooms they shouldn't be in. I honestly just made it 1 regular vaultbreaker ooze and it was fine, not too easy or anything still. Pretty sure they can fit and be fine because they are oozes but for my sanity I try not to have overlapping tokens on my VTT.


there's also 2 black puddings (huge) in a 10ft wide curcular chamber! they're pretty slow too with 20ft, so if they've gotta squeeze at all times (i use difficult terrain for this) then they're not gonna be able to catch up to anyone!


There is this spiral staircase in D11. Where this is supose to lead to?


KyoYagami068 wrote:
There is this spiral staircase in D11. Where this is supose to lead to?

Down to the lower cavern like levels of the sewers.


TAVelcro wrote:
KyoYagami068 wrote:
There is this spiral staircase in D11. Where this is supose to lead to?
Down to the lower cavern like levels of the sewers.

Really? That's strange. A full structured stair behind bars that leads to a tight tunel.


Maybe in its prime, it was better... It did collapse and much of the old place fell to ruin. I need to figure out why the BBEG of book 3 has a weapon in its art and description but the creature doesn't have one.


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The excorions in the end boss battle are actually lvl 7 in the bestiary section, rather than the lvl 6 stated in the text, and the difficulty calculation of severe seems to use lvl 6! if you remove 1 then it becomes correct for severe! otherwise it's 140xp!


The Skinsaw Sanctum Main Level map is absolutely horrid. I'm running this on a VTT and I'm not sure what the mapmaker was thinking to do with both levels like that, instead of splitting them.


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Peenicks wrote:
The Skinsaw Sanctum Main Level map is absolutely horrid. I'm running this on a VTT and I'm not sure what the mapmaker was thinking to do with both levels like that, instead of splitting them.

I am actually remaking the whole map in Dungeondraft. I'll post it when I have it ready.

Sovereign Court

Is it explained why Chadraxa made a complaint against Orvington Moneychangers?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

I assume that's related to the debt Orvington's son owes Chadraxa, which he has failed to pay.

Same reason she had people graffiti his bank, and throw a wasp nest on the roof.


EdwinM wrote:
Peenicks wrote:
The Skinsaw Sanctum Main Level map is absolutely horrid. I'm running this on a VTT and I'm not sure what the mapmaker was thinking to do with both levels like that, instead of splitting them.
I am actually remaking the whole map in Dungeondraft. I'll post it when I have it ready.

Ive made this one if you're interested - https://imgur.com/cYZ69vv

be very interested if you've remade the main dungeon too.


I used Dungeon Draft to recreate the main dungeon map.

https://gmfacepalm.blogspot.com/

Tyrroicese was the worst thing about this book. My players ran around the map trying to fight the creature off for two hours. They eventually did but they were very upset with its stats. It was close to TPK's for many rounds.

Most sessions, my players are infuriated with the inflated enemy rolls.

One player pulled multiple monsters by running further ahead. Luckily they found the sanctuary in time.

The best parts; tripping Xitelberak... they turned a stalactite into a stalagmite. Danis “Dannicus” Tumblaro... tumblaro'd off the edge of the map, before any introductions were made, but after seeing the man fraught with indecision.


GM Facepalm wrote:
Most sessions, my players are infuriated with the inflated enemy rolls.

May you please elaborate on what you mean by that?


O.W. wrote:
May you please elaborate on what you mean by that?

I'm speaking on behalf of my players and the general attitude. My players grumble when they see enemies saves that are +20 or +22 on spells they cast. They are put off when many enemies were rolling +20 or +23 to the attack roll. However, I have been on a streak with rolling good. Looking at the Gamemastery Guide's Monster Builder, the numbers appear to be in the right areas, even though the party thinks different.

My weekly group as been around since 2012 playing Pathfinder AP's. They are known for mopping up encounters, room by room of combatants. I couldn't stop them at higher levels with doubling HP and adding mythic ranks. 2nd edition has given them incidental pause and unease with more of the monstrous threat coming back under my control to unleash at the adventurers.


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GM Facepalm wrote:
O.W. wrote:
May you please elaborate on what you mean by that?

I'm speaking on behalf of my players and the general attitude. My players grumble when they see enemies saves that are +20 or +22 on spells they cast. They are put off when many enemies were rolling +20 or +23 to the attack roll. However, I have been on a streak with rolling good. Looking at the Gamemastery Guide's Monster Builder, the numbers appear to be in the right areas, even though the party thinks different.

My weekly group as been around since 2012 playing Pathfinder AP's. They are known for mopping up encounters, room by room of combatants. I couldn't stop them at higher levels with doubling HP and adding mythic ranks. 2nd edition has given them incidental pause and unease with more of the monstrous threat coming back under my control to unleash at the adventurers.

Yeah that's an adaptation for veteran players. Tell them to suck it up and take the challenge, since they now at least have one.

At first I was irritated by it too, now when I got back to being a player in pf1 I'm just like " wait the ennemy requires a nat 20 to save or else he dies.... That's so stupid....give me some challenge..."


I see now, thanks folks.
I only have a very brief experience with PF1, and that was as a novice GM. I made a five-player party play through the first Kingmaker book (Stolen Lands), and I did feel like I had a hard time challenging my players; although --since I lacked experience -- I wasn't at all able to tell if that was due to me being too kind, the AP being too easy, them being too numerous, or PF1 being usually an easy game at these levels.
On the contrary, in PF2, I feel like, so far, challenging players is the default. It only takes a Moderate-difficulty encounter to make them have to be careful. It makes sense that players used to simpler battles would feel like the ennemies are suddenly much more powerful in a game that yet still bears the same name.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

My players made it past the Tyrroicese, and are about to hit the Skinsaw hideout, but I noticed something weird about the Seamers.

So they’ve got a loop of wire on their free hand that lets them grapple as a reaction, which is rad. And once they grapple you, they can start stitching stuff to you, which is cool and gruesome. I’m on board. The players saves are penalized if the Seamer hits them with their Flay ability first—makes sense.

But the Flay ability requires them to hit with a non-war razor melee attack, and follow it up with a war razor attack, which means you need to dual-wield your shortsword and war razor to flay the PC. But that’s going to take up both your hands, and the description of Wire Catch sure makes it sound like they’re supposed to have a hand free for grapples and disarms.

So are they supposed to start with both weapons out, flay, and then drop one to start stitching? That seems like a lot of equipment juggling to pull off their (admittedly) cool schtick.

And another thing, what’s up with the shortsword attack being 2 less than the war razor?

I think I’m just going to give them +1 Striking War Razors, ditch the shortswords entirely, and have their Flay ability work without needing a non-war razor hit.


Am I missing some massive chunk of XP somewhere in Chapter 3? By my calculations, there are around 500 xp in the Copper Hand Hideout before hitting the boss...

C1 - 30
C3 - 40
C4 - 60
C5 - 30
C6 - 60
C7 - 80
C8 - 40
C9 - 80
C13 - 80
C14 - 10

...but there's commentary in the AP that the party might want to level up before the encounter in room C16 (which at level 6 is a very intense 155 XP).

I'm committed to sticking with XP leveling (for now, anyway) to help the random encounters in chapter 4 from feeling like a waste of time. What would you do in my situation, where the amount of XP in the hideout is seemingly insufficient to meet the scenario writer's expectations? Would you just gift 500 XP to the players? Would you downgrade the boss encounter, and then just hit a sidequest after the gang hideout? What do you think?


First, the writer has made it very clear that the encounter with Fayati can be talked through, and if your players have a commitment to relatively peaceful lawkeeping, it is likely they won't fight her.

If they are going to, however... Do not do as I did when I realised standard XP tarcking wasn't right for my roleplay-centered, non-completionist group and give them an enormous amount of XP immediately so that they can tread onward as they should. You could give them more XP for each prior fight, and not tell them you are buffing them up for the encounter. You can make up objectives for them to complete and gain bonus XP with. And your idea to merely debuff the enemies and give them a sidequest in beteween is great too. You could take inspiration from the plot hooks at the end of Book 1, or from the "Gangs of Absalom" section at the end of Book 3 (I sure did for one of my sidequests).

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