Witches dedication in the scope of comparisson

[Sonnet The field agent]

I look in aonprd and get confused.
In witch Multiclass dedication, it is noted that you get a witch's familiar.and that: "Your familiar has one less familiar ability than normal." (its not saying that you get a familiar with 1 ability though)
Witches' familiars get extra abilities: "Your patron has sent you a familiar, a mystical creature that teaches you and facilitates your spells. This familiar follows the rules here, though as it's a direct conduit between you and your patron, !!!!it's more powerful than other familiars!!!!. Your familiar gains an extra familiar ability, and gains another extra ability at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels." (as I understand this ones are fixed to familiar not master abilities)
Does wording mean, that witches dedication gives 1 cantrip, (2 in spell book)1 familiar which improves as you level. (2 at 1, 3 at 6lvl, 4 at 12th)?
So compared to other casters you get 1 less cantrip at the start, 1 less skill, spell book vs whole spell list (druid/cleric), no language (druidic) and trade that with a familiar who is leveling up with you?

So, you can read it as familiar with 1 ability, or familiar with 2+ abilities (1+ of which is are fixed as non master abilities).
1 ability is making it lackluster compared to wisdom casters: small prepared spell list which you should pay for, less cantrips and a familiar which is able to do very little, not a good scout, not even okay at anything until you feed it with feats.

[Xenocrat]

You get one ability, because normal familiars get two abilities. You're not a witch, you're another class with the witch dedication, so you don't get a witch familiar.

The reason they said "one fewer than normal" instead of "one ability" is to make it work with extra familiar abilities, which usually say something like "you get four abilities instead of two."

[Betwixt]

I thought this as well the first time I read it, that your familiar only received a single ability but I find it interesting that the text for the reduction species "one less FAMILIAR ability", which to me highlights the intent is to remove the bonus familiar ability a witch's familiar would normally receive.

I think it's also not entirely clear, does a familiar gained from this dedication return when you next prepare spells? Or do you need to spend a week of downtime as per a normal familiar to revive it. If it's the latter, that makes the witch dedication spellcasting exceptionally fragile.

[Captain Zoom]

Just my 2 cents ---

I don't think anyone is going to agree on this one as I think it can be read either way. Each GM will need to make their own call, or in PFS they might make a PFS rule which may or may not reflect what the Devs told them, or the Devs might step in and clarify (or errata the language).

I'm inclined to take the expansive interpretation that you get a Witch's familiar and it gets the normal number of Witch familiar abilities MINUS one. This is in part because they nerf the normal spellcasting - other spellcasting dedications get 2 cantrips, Witch dedication only gets 1. And because it's cool and I don't see the familiar causing the dedication to be overpowered.

BUT I can readily see that some might decide it means a basic Witch's familiar with NO future advancement, minus one ability, so 3-1=2 starting abilities and no more later.

AND I can readily see that some might decide it means a basic familiar, which normally gets 2 abilities, minus 1, so a familiar with only 1 ability, and no more.

Again, you can parse the language as much as you like and there's no way to truly know what the Devs meant.

[Mellored]

I would also say you get the witches familiar (including the scaling abilities-1)

If you just got a normal familiar, you would not be able to prepare spells from it. So the whole dedication would be useless.

[Garulo]

The question is how a particular sentence should be interpreted

"Your familiar has one less familiar ability than normal."

Is the sentence to be read as:
Your familiar has one less familiar ability than (a regular witches familiar)" A witches familiar gets 2 familiar/master abilities and 1 familiar only ability at first level. It goes to 2,3,4 familiar abilities as you rise in levels

or
Your familiar has one less familiar ability than (a standard familiar). This is capped at 2 always (unless you take enhanced/wiz etc)

There are problems with both interpretations:

In the former, the dedication is more powerful than every other cookie-cutter spell casting archetype

In the latter, the dedication is less powerful than every other other cookie-cutter spell casting archetype.

Personally, I would interpret as the former since there is no reason to explicitly gimp the familiar for play balance UNLESS the archetype's familiar is meant to represent the more powerfull witch familiar

[breithauptclan]

You are taking the Witch archetype. It gives you a familiar. Why would it be anything other than the Witch familiar? You aren't going to be getting a Sorcerer familiar by taking the Witch archetype.

So yeah, RAI I think it is fairly obvious that the 'Your familiar has one less familiar ability than normal' rule is that you have one less ability to pick than is normal for a Witch.

Also, when I am reading through it, I am assuming that it means total abilities for the familiar, not specifically the 'Familiar Abilities' list.

So with just the Witch Dedication, the familiar would have two ability slots at level 1-5, three at 6-11, four at 12-17, and five at 18+. And you could fill any of those slots with either Familiar Abilities or Master Abilities.

That is my gut-instinct reading of these rules. That is what makes sense to me.

[Themetricsystem]

Could use better clarification for certain but I don't think any reasonable person would REALLY argue that the Familiar granted by the MCA Feat isn't specifically a Witch Familiar, otherwise the entire rest of the Archetype and its spellcasting functions are just flat-out useless and you cannot prepare spells.

I am 100% confident that this intended to commuincate that you take the Witch Familiar as it's printed for the Witch, and reduce the Master/Familiar Benefits pool by 1.

[Xenocrat]

They did not intend to give you three class feats worth of familiar abilities over the course of your career for the cost of one feat. There’s zero chance that part ends happily for anyone depending on it.

[Squiggit]

Pretty good indication more clarification is needed when we have two groups of people both completely confident in the opposite conclusion though.

[Xenocrat]

Squiggit wrote:

Pretty good indication more clarification is needed when we have two groups of people both completely confident in the opposite conclusion though.

One side is relying on fairness and wishful thinking, the other on cold hearted balance assessment. Paizo doesn’t intentionally give anything nice away in a mainline book and this part wasn’t playtested.

[Themetricsystem]

To me it seems totally obvious that the Familiar it's granting should be using the rules that are outlined with the Witch Class, in fact, that's the only Familiar -CLASS ABILITY- in the whole system, all other sources of the Familiar are granted via a Class Feat and the Witch MCA Dedication Feat does NOT specify that the Familiar is given through a bonus Feat, instead, it just specifies that you gain the Familiar and specifies where precisely it differs from the Witch, namely the number of Spells it starts off with.

Unless the intent here was to make it so you gain a Familiar which cannot be replaced easily, ends up losing all of their Spells if it dies, and cannot have any additional Spells added to it from sources outside of leveling (It cannot eat Scrolls or use Learn a Spell Activity with other Witch Familiars)... a version of a Familiar that is not only worse than the Witch Familiar but also worse than the base one that Druids, Sorcerers, Wizards, Alchemists, and Gnomes gain.

It falls down to the whole "If it's too good/bad to be true, it isn't" schtick.

[Mellored]

Xenocrat wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Pretty good indication more clarification is needed when we have two groups of people both completely confident in the opposite conclusion though.

One side is relying on fairness and wishful thinking, the other on cold hearted balance assessment. Paizo doesn’t intentionally give anything nice away in a mainline book and this part wasn’t playtested.

I think we all agree on how it SHOULD be. Just not how it IS.

Choose a patron; you gain the witches familiar feature with two common cantrips of your choice from your chosen patron's tradition, but aside from the tradition, you don't gain any other effects the patron would usually grant. Your familiar has 2 abilities and does not automatically gain more as you level (it can still gain more though other means, such as Enhanced Familiar feat)

[Abyssiensis]

It doesn't need to be a witches familiar in the dedication, because the other feats and the dedication state how it works with the familiar, so it should just be a normal familiar with one less than normal which is still a benefit over other dedications?

[Mellored]

Abyssiensis wrote:

It doesn't need to be a witches familiar in the dedication, because the other feats and the dedication state how it works with the familiar, so it should just be a normal familiar with one less than normal which is still a benefit over other dedications?

Normal familiars cannot let you prepare spells. All of that is under Familiar in the Witch class.

That's like the wizard dedication giving a book.
Not the spell book feature. Just a book.

My guess is that it used to be under Patron, and it was moved.

[Effusion]

I don't see how it would make sense for the witch archetype to have a better familiar than the familiar master archetype on top of spellcasting.

[Timeshadow]

So with just the Witch Dedication, the familiar would have two ability slots at level 1-5, three at 6-11, four at 12-17, and five at 18+. And you could fill any of those slots with either Familiar Abilities or Master Abilities.

Familiar master gives familiar or (enhanced familiar if you already have one. So at low lvls they are on par 2 abilities.

both have access one way or another to enhanced familiar so we will discount that.

lvls 6-11 Witch dedication gets +1
Familiar master gets access to mascot and Improved Familiar that witch dedication doesn't. (Also remember a non spell caster can take this to get a familiar they normally can't access wile the dedication makes them a caster) Improved makes it easier to qualify for a special familiar effectively giving 2 extra abilities.

8th lvl master gets access to mutable familiar
10th lvl incredible familiar for effectively 8 familiar abilities (6 plus the 2 less needed to qualify for a special familiar)

At lvls 12-17 Witch dedication gets their 4th ability
At 18th they get their 5th ability for a total max of 7 with enhanced familiar.

So I'd say Familiar master is not too far off though if you spent class feats on witch dedication/witch feats in the same amount the dedication is a touch more powerful but multi-class feats are generally quite powerful and dedications are more for flavor than for power so take it as you will.

Honestly I think familiar master should get extra abilities like a witch or Familiar thesis wizard considering the "cost" but it won't prevent me from taking it for my rogue who wants an animal accomplice. :-)

[Effusion]

If we're trying to build them as closely as possible, the witch can take basic witchcraft (which eliminates the -1 penalty in addition to granting a feat): enhanced familiar, advanced witchcraft: incredible familiar, and advanced witchcraft: improved familiar to end up with 10+2 abilities, basic spellcasting, and no downtime if their familiar dies for 4 feats (or 5 abilities for 1 feat).

The familiar master taking equivalent feats would get 6+2 abilities on a familiar with 1 week of downtime on death for 4 feats (or 2 abilities for 1 feat).

That can't be the intent.

[The Ronyon]

I betting the devs clarifications will not give the Dedication version automatic increases of abilities via leveling, but will give a easily reincarnated Familiar with 2 abilities at first level.

That would be groovy, the Familiar wouldn't suck, but Familiar Master wouldn't be overshadowed either.

[Sonnet The field agent]

About being an OP I think that its NOT OP . Because all updates from witch's familiar coming with lever are only "familiar abilities" - which means they are not "Master abilities". I.e. you cannot choose more then 2 master abilities if you will not use enhanced familiar feat from witch.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspx

The only way you can make this familiar superb is to make an Alchemist/Witch character, it will not by OP in fights, but it will be super fun in utility. Also, Wizard/Alchemist/Witch build will be quite good at utility (though will be so-so as a wizard. going full Halcyon is much stronger IMHO).

Lets just be honest: Familiar master - is a weak archetype, as are most of the archetypes.
The lonely reason of using it is to have familiar cast spells from its position, usually negating enemy cover.

[The Raven Black]

I think the Witch dedication gives you a Witch familiar because you can take both the Witch MC AND the Familiar Master archetype.

I wonder what happens if you take Witch MC on a Wizard who already has a familiar. Is there a rule somewhere that you can only have a single familiar?

[Kelseus]

I agree that it could be read either way, but still leaning toward the Witch's Familiar (i.e. 3-1, and get more as level up).

The Raven Black wrote:

I think the Witch dedication gives you a Witch familiar because you can take both the Witch MC AND the Familiar Master archetype.

I wonder what happens if you take Witch MC on a Wizard who already has a familiar. Is there a rule somewhere that you can only have a single familiar?

There are no rules for Familiars from the different sources. What I would say is that you have to train out of the familiar Wizard feat (unless they have the Familiar Thesis, then they are incompatible).

[Sonnet The field agent]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think the Witch dedication gives you a Witch familiar because you can take both the Witch MC AND the Familiar Master archetype.

I wonder what happens if you take Witch MC on a Wizard who already has a familiar. Is there a rule somewhere that you can only have a single familiar?

There is a rule in familiar section that you can have only one familiar.

Familiars have the minion trait (page 634), so during an encounter, they gain 2 actions in a round if you spend an action to command them. If your familiar dies, you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost. You can have only one familiar at a time.
So getting a witches familiar is quite a good option for a wizard, that preferred to be true wizard and get spell substitution class feature.

[Effusion]

Sonnet The field agent wrote:

Because all updates from witch's familiar coming with lever are only "familiar abilities" - which means they are not "Master abilities". I.e. you cannot choose more then 2 master abilities if you will not use enhanced familiar feat from witch.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspx

Are you sure that's not just paizo being sloppy with their language? If you look at enhanced familiar it says " You can select four familiar or master abilities each day" but under the wizard section it says "your familiar's base number of familiar abilities." The wizard's thesis familiar refers to getting extra abilities rather than familiar abilities like the witch.

[Old_Man_Robot]

Effusion wrote:

Sonnet The field agent wrote:

Because all updates from witch's familiar coming with lever are only "familiar abilities" - which means they are not "Master abilities". I.e. you cannot choose more then 2 master abilities if you will not use enhanced familiar feat from witch.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspx

Are you sure that's not just paizo being sloppy with their language? If you look at enhanced familiar it says " You can select four familiar or master abilities each day" but under the wizard section it says "your familiar's base number of familiar abilities." The wizard's thesis familiar refers to getting extra abilities rather than familiar abilities like the witch.

This 100%.

Paizo need to get a rules language seminar from the MTG folks. Those people know how to word a game.

[Broddo Feggins]

Damn Paizo and their damn wording.
Why just cant we ask Jason Bulmahn on discord, like DND folk are doing with their Jeremy?
"Ask Jason". Btw on his channel it is "this is not a place to ask for Errata, please use official channels for that."
SO where is this Official channel?

[Rysky]

Because asking for off the cuff answers from one designer causes more issues than it fixes.

[Pigraven]

So have we been given any official ruling on this? It's been nearly three months since this thread went cold, but I can't find an official ruling statement on these boards or reddit. If one has been made, could somebody kindly point me to it?

[Zapp]

Somewhat related:

How does a Wizard m/c-ing into Witch end up with ONE familiar...?

I cannot find any language that is written with the assumption one familiar-having class m/cs into a second familiar-having class.

But having two separate familiars should definitely be a choice, and not the only choice.

[SuperBidi]

Per RAI, I clearly agree with the fact that you should have a Familiar with only 1 ability. But per RAW, you get a Witch Familiar.
Saying that "You gain a Familiar with two common cantrips" would be invalid if it was referring to a normal Familiar as normal Familiars don't have cantrips.

As a side note, Witch Dedication has a prerequisite of 14 in Intelligence, which is hard to meet on anything but Wizards and Alchemists. So I think Familiar Master still has it's use even if it's a bit worse than Witch Dedication.

[shroudb]

i cannot tell if the RAI is a 1-ability familiar or a -1 Ability Witch Familiar.

After all, if you don't get a Witch familiar, how do you even preapare your spells as a MC witch and how do you learn more spells? since those are all functions of the "witch familiar" class ability