APG is here, lets theorize builds together.

[manbearscientist]

A stronger WildShaper:

Kobold Fighter

Stats
Ancestry- +S/+D/-Co/+Ch
Background- +S/+W
Class- +S
1- +S/+Co/+W/Ch
5- +S/+Co/+W/Ch
10- +S/+Co/+W/Ch
15- +S/+Co/+W/Ch
20- +S/+Co/+W/Ch
Apex - S
Final - +7S/+1D/+4Co/+0I/+5W/+5Ch

Ancestry
Heritage-Dragonscaled(any)
1-Kobold's Breath
5-Dragon's Presence
9-Dragon's Breath
13-Between the Scales
17-Scamper

Skill Feats: Intimidation and Athletics

Class
1- Sudden Charge
2- Druid Dedication
4- Wild Shape
6- Poison Resistance
8- Dragon Disciple
9- Swipe
10- Scales of the Dragon
12- Spring Attack
14- Whirlwind Strike
15- Agile Grace
16- Soaring Shape
18- Ferocious Shape
20- Weapon Supremacy

Obviously you can do more with a free archetype. But this ends up giving you an attack of +40 (28 proficiency + 7 strength + 3 item + 2 status) and an AC of 43-44. This is +2 on attacks for -1 in AC compared to normal full plate. For decent chunks it will be ahead in AC (ex: at 10 plate has 29 AC vs Animal Form's 30).

[Midnightoker]

That's a 3-4 point drop in AC.

I also think comparing builds strictly at level 20 is less than productive for determining viability of builds.

The biggest problem with your old build IMO was applying Stances to Battle Forms (particularly Mountain, which if allowed is pretty abusable due to the AC bonus).

The above doesn't really strike me as an issue, especially since you don't have +10 Stealth/Acrobatics (which tbh, is already cheesable with the Scout Archetype).

[manbearscientist]

cavernshark wrote:

...every other battle form gives you an inclusive list of abilities, which include attacks, means the omission of attacks on pest form is probably entirely intended. It's also consistent with the fact that familiar's don't have attacks in this edition...and the description of pest forms clearly overlaps that subset of tiny creatures.

As for assuming a stance and then using it in a form, the other forms that actually list attacks prohibit it. That's more evidence to suggest it wouldn't work on pest form.

Shrink literally makes you a Tiny creature, with Polymorph trait, and doesn't list any attacks. It also conveniently lets you stay trained in Intelligence-based skills (Animal trait prevents this). Does Shrink prevent attacking?

Does Apex Companion? Or Fiery Body? Or Ki Form? None of these list an attack. How is it more reasonable that lighter-than-air plasma can make shadows leap and and cling to the target than a mouse?

And it isn't like the earlier monk stances are entirely based in your physical attributes. Rain of Embers deals fire damage. Dragon Stance lets you ignore terrain. Crane Stance makes you superhumanly good at jumping.

Midnightoker wrote:

You don't have fists to make attacks with, so therefore, you cannot make an unarmed attack. ...

It does say that, right under Polymorph

You reading more into the rules than what is actually written in rules. You don't need fists to make an unarmed attack (falling stone Strikes don't specify any body part).

And polymorph states:

"the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses" and "the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands".

Attacking with an unarmed attack is not a special statistic (these forms say "statistics and abilities". Attacking with an unarmed attack is not casting a spell. Attacking with an unarmed attack is not a manipulate action requiring hands.

That's all I'm saying. A GM ultimately has the final say, but they would regardless of the parenthesis text. That's literally written in the CRB, pg. 443.

But while there are certainly reasonable interpretations for why it wouldn't work, I don't think there are hard and fast rules against it.

[Mellored]

Just going to add, your not using "fist" to attack.
Your using "falling stone" which "allowing you to strike with the weight of an avalanche".

I imagine a beetle doing a fully body slam, a rabbit kicking, or a blue spinning hedgehog.

Add in stunning fist and call yourself a tiny Granite Glyptodont

[Mellored]

Hag Sorcerer + Golem Grafter

One punch and they take -2 against your curses spells, Jealous Hex, Feast of Ashes, Blood Vendetta, Seal Fate, Blinding Fury, Spellwrack, etc...

Extra HP and resist physical also when running into melee.

Though, this would be better as 2 different characters.

[Reticent]

Old Reliable: Barb/Dual-Wield Warrior

Rationale: The net effect of the synergies here create a character that is nearly immune to rolling poorly on attack rolls. Both Barbarian and DWW have access to feats that let them spend an action to automatically apply hit-like effects to a target they've already successfully struck that round, and DWW further has a feat that guarantees at least one successful strike in any Double Slice that isn't a double critical failure.

Races: You can make this build work with any race- but if you can't guarantee access to Returning runes for your weapons, you'll likely want to pick up a familiar as an ancestry feat to 'valet' your weapon drawing Interactions for you. Gnome and Ratfolk have that at level one, so either go with one of those or take Adopted Ancestry at level 3 to reach back and borrow one of their familiar feats.

Class Feats:

1) Raging Thrower, Fury Instinct: Raging Intimidation
2) Dual Weapon Warrior Dedication, (Skill Feat) Titan Wrestler
4) Dual Thrower
6) Brutal Bully
8) Flensing Slice
10) Knockback
12) Freebie
14) Dual Onslaught*
16) Awesome Blow*
18) Brutal Critical
20) Unstoppable Juggernaut

Options: You can adapt this to any Instinct, though it makes sense to prefer an Instinct that doesn't disfavor dual wielding. The bonus feat from Fury gives you a chance to pick up a Rage action for use with Mighty Rage at 11, which this build might otherwise lack. There are many really great feats that could be taken at 12, and none of them are essential to the build; strong contenders include Attack of Opportunity, Furious Bully, or Terrifying Howl. *Dual Onslaught and Awesome Blow are both level 14 feats, and there's a case to be made for swapping their positions.

Equipment: the gold standard for this build would be a trident and a light hammer, both with a Returning rune. Short of that, any two good single handed weapons and a stockpile of small throwing weapons will suffice.

Game plan: Double Slice at zero MAP:

*if both hit Flensing Strike for guaranteed damage;

*if only one hits Knockback/Awesome Blow for automatic Brutal Bully damage;

*if both miss Dual Onslaught your highest dice weapon into a hit and follow up with Knockback/Awesome Blow;

*if both CRITICALLY miss- well- how often are two full attack bonus strikes both going to critically miss?

[Kyrone]

Mastermind Rogue with Ranger MC, that way you get the knowledge check in the same action as Hunt Prey with Monster Hunter and that enables the Ranger Twin Takedown or Hunted Shot for you.

[Mellored]

Reactivator

Half-elf Champion

1: Ongoing Selfishness/Ranged Reprisal/(improved reaction)
2: Bastion Dedication(prerequisite)
4:
6: Shield Warden (prerequisite)
8: Quick Block (+1 reaction)
9: Multitalented (Swashbuckler, prerequisite)
10: Quick Shield Block (+1 reaction)
12: Shield of Reckoning (+1 reaction-ish)
14: Divine Reflexes (+1 reaction)
16: Swashbuckler's Riposte
18: Basic Flair ...
20: Advanced Fair- Reflexive Riposte (+1 reaction)

= 5 reactions, Block + Reduce Damage (normal reaction), Reduce Damage, Block, Block, Riposte

[manbearscientist]

Anti-personnel Fighter

Human/Half-orc
1-Orc Superstition
5-Natural Ambition
9-Pervasive Superstition
13-Spell Devourer

Fighter
1-Snagging Strike
2-Duelist Dedication (Quick Draw)
4-Duelist Challenge
5-Sudden Charge
6-Dueling Parry (Archetype)
8-Blind-Fight
9-Disarming Stance
10-Barbarian Dedication (Superstition)
12-Disarming Twist
14-Stance Savant
15-Agile Grace
16-Instinct Ability
18-Determination
20-Weapon Supremacy

Goals:

Create a character that is very good at dealing with 'player class' type enemies: humanoids that use weapons or spells.

Against spellcasters, he has a +1 circumstance and +2 status bonus to saves against all types of spells and can use Determination to get out of hostile effects. He can also use Snagging Strike and Combat Grab to be disruptive.

Against weapon-users, he goes all in on Disarm. He keeps a Rapier and a Main-Gauche, drawing the the Gauche if he first against martials. With Agile Grace, he has a fairly high chance to get a success or critical success on Disarming Twist. Once disarmed, he switches to a Rapier or the opponents weapon.

[Reticent]

manbearscientist wrote:

Anti-personnel Fighter

Might be fun to rebuild it as a base-class Barbarian with Embrace the Pain in there to also Disarm as a reaction to taking melee hits.

[manbearscientist]

Reticent wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

Anti-personnel Fighter

Might be fun to rebuild it as a base-class Barbarian with Embrace the Pain in there to also Disarm as a reaction to taking melee hits.

I struggled to decide whether it was better to go Fighter for the higher attack and more feats or Barbarian for Embrace the Pain more superstition feats. After all, Duelist already shares most of the Disarm feats needed with Fighter so it is a little extraneous.

If I went Barbarian, my class feats would be:

1-Sudden Charge
2-No Escape
4-Duelist Dedication
5-Acute Scent
6-Mage Hunter
8-Disarming Assault
10-Duelist Challenge
12-Embrace the Pain
14-Disarming Stance
16-Disarming Twist
18-Supernatural Senses
20-Unstoppable Juggernaut

Same basic idea. Considerations for common defensive tactics from mages and boosts to saves, and a lot of disarm stuff for martials. I didn't take Spell Sunder or Sunder Enchantment because I thought the disarm feats had higher priority. We are better off sticking to mages and face-tanking their spells than we are trying to trade actions. It would be nice to knock off Fly, but both builds are better off using items to cover up that weakness (namely Winged Boots).

[Reticent]

manbearscientist wrote:

If I went Barbarian, my class feats would be:

1-Sudden Charge
2-No Escape
4-Duelist Dedication
5-Acute Scent
6-Mage Hunter
8-Disarming Assault
10-Duelist Challenge
12-Embrace the Pain
14-Disarming Stance
16-Disarming Twist
18-Supernatural Senses
20-Unstoppable Juggernaut

I think a shortcoming of Mage Hunter here (and generally) is that it competes with No Escape for your reaction. It's bad enough that I'd consider dropping it and shuffling some things around to make room for Silencing Strike to try and shut down magic proactively.

[manbearscientist]

Reticent wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

If I went Barbarian, my class feats would be:

1-Sudden Charge
2-No Escape
4-Duelist Dedication
5-Acute Scent
6-Mage Hunter
8-Disarming Assault
10-Duelist Challenge
12-Embrace the Pain
14-Disarming Stance
16-Disarming Twist
18-Supernatural Senses
20-Unstoppable Juggernaut

I think a shortcoming of Mage Hunter here (and generally) is that it competes with No Escape for your reaction. It's bad enough that I'd consider dropping it and shuffling some things around to make room for Silencing Strike to try and shut down magic proactively.

Mage Hunter isn't great, but it does have the benefit of helping with Dimension Door. That comes up pretty often, especially with fiends of any type.

The way I see it, a typical caster turn is either Stride+Spell, or Spell+Stride. Mage Hunter gives you a bonus if they choose to do the latter, even if 90% of the time they will just do the former. And sometimes you will take advantage of something using True Strike to actually deal with you in melee.

[Xenocrat]

Reroll/foresight gish/skill monkey. An investigator with wizard MC who takes the diviner's sight school power as well as the spell mastery feats and gets a staff of divination.

Action 1: Devise a Stragem (+Recall Knowledge with Known Weakness feat)_
Action 2a: Strike if you rolled well.
Action 2b: True Sight (from staff) if you want to try to strike someone else.
Action 2c: Diviner's Sight if you want to try a combat maneuver or demoralize check on anyone.
Action 3a: Whatever.
Action 3b: Strike secondary target, roll twice.
Action 3c: Perform skill based attack, using the Diviner's Sight roll if it's good enough.

I'd take Alchemical Sciences methodology for extra utility and buffing, use my highest level wizard slot to add charges to my staff, and fill the lower level slots with utility. Electric Arc is there when your Diviner's Sight is expended (you're unlikely to get a second focus point anywhere) or your True Strikes run low.

[Xenocrat]

Xenocrat wrote:

Action 2b: True Sight (from staff) if you want to try to strike someone else.
Action 2c: Diviner's Sight if you want to try a combat maneuver or demoralize check on anyone.

I forgot that True Sight also works on combat maneuvers since they have the Attack trait, so Diviner's Sight isn't doing much unless you're really trying to crit on a single demoralize or scare to death attempt per encounter. Drop Wizard and take Witch dedication with either arcane or occult tradition, drop one feat into either enhanced familiar or a basic lesson.

[Dargath]

Vixleby Goblin Ranger Wolf Rider

I wanted a pretty simple character concept, sneaky Goblin that also likes to steal, has a wolf and rides the wolf with two short swords. Sneaky Stabbin. Ride around on wolf and cut things up. Be the sneakiest and the stabbiest. The end.

1) ( R ) Animal Companion [Wolf], (A) Very Sneaky
2) ( R ) Dual-Weapon Warrior, (S) Experienced Tracker
3) (G) Adopted Ancestry
4) ( R ) Disrupt Prey, (S) Assurance [Stealth]
5) (A) Versatile Training: Heal Companion
6) ( R ) Mature Animal Companion, (S) Pickpocket
7) Toughness
8) ( R ) Flensing Slice, (S) Foil senses
9) (A) Twitchy
10) ( R ) Incredible Companion [Savage], (S) Swift Sneak
11) (G) Fleet
12) ( R ) Dual-Weapon Blitz, (S) Shadow Mark
13) (A) Very, Very Sneaky
14) ( R ) Side by Side, (S) Subtle Theft
15) ( G) Diehard
16) ( R ) Specialized Companion [Bully], (S) Legendary Sneak
17) (A) Unbreakable-Er Goblin
18) ( R ) Masterful Companion, (S) Legendary Thief
19) (G) Incredible Initiative
20) ( R ) Impossible Flurry, (S) Legendary Survivalist

[manbearscientist]

Mauler Wizard

Ancestry - Not important, assuming Human
Stat array
St.|S|D|C|I|W|C
1- |3|3|0|2|1|0
5- |4|4|1|3|0|0 (S/D/C/I)
10-|4|4|2|4|0|0 (S/D/C/I)
15-|5|5|3|4|0|0 (S/D/C/I)
20-|5|5|4|5|1|1 (C/I/W/C)

Wizard
Divination
Staff Nexus

2-Mauler Dedication
4-Bespell Weapon
6-Clear the Way
8-Power Attack
10-Golem Grafter
12-Clever Counterspell
14-Brutal Finish
16-Avalanche Strike
18-Reprepare Spell
20-Hammer Quake

Spell Selection
1-True Strike, Magic Missile, Mage Armor, Magic Weapon
2-Blood Vendetta, Mirror Image, True Strike, Longstrider
3-Haste, True Strike, Magic Missile, Blood Venetta
4-Stoneskin, Enlarge, Dimension Door, Countless Eyes
5-Magic Missile, Blood Vendetta, Dimension Door, Cloak of Colors
6-True Seeing, Mislead, Wall of Force, Energy Absorption
7-True Target, Fly, Magic Missile, Time Beacon
8-Mage Armor, True Target, Contingency, Mind Blank
9-Foresight, Blood Vendetta, Magic Missile, Contingency
10-Indestructibility

Explanation:

Alright, so this is a weird one. This is a mage trying to do something specific: thunk enemies with a staff, and mostly use 'prepare ahead of time' buffs and 1-action or reaction spells.

At some point most of our 4th level and earlier spells are turned into True Strikes so that we can use a ton of True Strikes per fight. Ideally, we are WAY out action-economy-ing a regular Wizard by using the extra action from Haste and a reaction every single turn.

We have a lot of competition for our reaction slot, between Blood Vendetta (the go-to for damage), energy absorption/foresight for protection, or even Contingency. The latter might have a dimension door for fast travel, but more likely it has a time beacon to redo a totally bad turn and offset our relative fragility.

Argue with your GM that you should be able to use Bespell Weapon off a reaction and have it last till the end of the your turn (letting you use it twice per turn). You'll fail, but fight the good fight.

For equipment, maximize runes on your primary staff. Prioritize getting a shifting rune, as a glaive or falchion may be a good option with Avalanche Strike. Scrolls should prioritize more buffs or mobility spells.

[Reticent]

manbearscientist wrote:

Mauler Wizard

I was looking at doing something similar to this as a Mauler Druid. Verdant Weapon, isn't GREAT- but add the Mauler Dedication and you can Verdant Weapon a greatclub and it will also act as your spell focus.

I don't think the Primal list gives as much self melee buffing as the Arcane list does, but you still get Enlarge to give you reach for your Avalanche Strike. And if you really want to color outside of the lines, you can build around Wild Morph and Plant Shape to add another 10 feet to your reach with vines.

[Dargath]

I had another thought when reading through the Cavalier however I’m just not sure how all of this stuff works. I’ve read mounted combat rules, animal companion rules, and everything I can but it’s all rather complicated.

Potential idea: Ranger with Cavalier Dedication for a Goblin Wolf Rider.

The Rough Rider states you gain the Ride feat (might be meaningless but you get it for free) as well as the ability to ALWAYS pick a Wolf even when ordinarily you’d have to pick an animal companion with the mount special trait. I believe the Cavalier Dedication also specifies an animal companion with the mount special trait however the Goblin feat circumvents this (I think.)

However I’m not sure how certain feats interact with mounted combat. For instance Skirmish Strike: you step and then strike or strike and then step. Is this useful for a drive by talent to swipe an enemy then keep on riding past for a cycle charging type combat?

Also many feats specifically require the “Animal Companion” feat such as Side by Side which would make your opponent flat flooted regardless of your actual positions - or the Masterful Companion which would benefit from the Master Hunter class feature.

However you can gain Heal Companion feat which would allow you to heal your mount. I’m also not sure which Hunter’s Edge ability would be most useful with this concept... or how many attacks you’d be looking at doing. Would a spear and shield be better, or perhaps dual-wielding? I’m not sure.

Also: if I got Animal Companion at level 1 in order to qualify for later feats which would enhance the synergy of being always near your companion for Side by Side etc.... what would happen at level 2 when you gained the Cavalier Dedication feat? Nothing? If nothing happened would you at all qualify for the Cavalier Dedication requirement feats like Impressive Mount and Specialized Mount, etc?

I think there’s possible potential for a Goblin Wolf Rider with the Cavalier but I may be wrong.

[manbearscientist]

Reticent wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

Mauler Wizard

I was looking at doing something similar to this as a Mauler Druid. Verdant Weapon, isn't GREAT- but add the Mauler Dedication and you can Verdant Weapon a greatclub and it will also act as your spell focus.

I don't think the Primal list gives as much self melee buffing as the Arcane list does, but you still get Enlarge to give you reach for your Avalanche Strike. And if you really want to color outside of the lines, you can build around Wild Morph and Plant Shape to add another 10 feet to your reach with vines.

Druid has a big advantage over Wizard here: Command an Animal. This gives you a great 1-action thing to do, and the whole point of the build is to trade off bigger effects for more tempo (doing 5 things per turn, rather than 2).

The 1-action spells to consider (all traditions):

shield

harm

heal

magic missile

true strike

true target

endure

time beacon

jump

power word blind/stun/kill

heal companion (beastmaster)

heal animal (druid)

blinding beauty (sorcerer)

physical boost (wizard)

hunter's vision (ranger)

untwisting iron buffer (student of perfection)

unfolding wind rush (student of perfection)

personal blizzard (witch)

ancestral touch (oracle)

gravity weapon (ranger)

soul siphon (oracle)

tempest touch (oracle)

blood ward (witch)

compositions

litanies

Reactions:

foresight

contingency

shield

blood vendetta

flame barrier

energy absorption

feather fall

drop dead

spell turning

rebounding barrier

scintillating safeguard

ancestral defense (oracle)

zeal for battle (cleric)

know the enemy (cleric)

battlefield persistence (oracle)

arcane countermeasure (sorcerer)

bottle the storm (cleric)

enduring might (cleric)

perfect strike (student of perfection)

Cleric or Oracle would mostly be stuck with harm/heal but on the flipside have a lot of options for focus spells. Primal probably has it the toughest, and it probably would be a great idea to pick up Shield somehow if possible (e.g. ancestry feats).

[Reticent]

manbearscientist wrote:

Druid has a big advantage over Wizard here

On further inspection there is another very strong option for a Mauler with Verdant Weapon- bo staff.

Getting reach, trip, and parry on a weapon is probably worth giving up a little damage and shove. And the parry trait somewhat alleviates the need (or at least the urgency) to pick up the Shield cantrip.

[shroudb]

manbearscientist wrote:

Reticent wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

Mauler Wizard

I was looking at doing something similar to this as a Mauler Druid. Verdant Weapon, isn't GREAT- but add the Mauler Dedication and you can Verdant Weapon a greatclub and it will also act as your spell focus.

I don't think the Primal list gives as much self melee buffing as the Arcane list does, but you still get Enlarge to give you reach for your Avalanche Strike. And if you really want to color outside of the lines, you can build around Wild Morph and Plant Shape to add another 10 feet to your reach with vines.

Druid has a big advantage over Wizard here: Command an Animal. This gives you a great 1-action thing to do, and the whole point of the build is to trade off bigger effects for more tempo (doing 5 things per turn, rather than 2).

The 1-action spells to consider (all traditions):

shield

harm

heal

magic missile

true strike

true target

endure

time beacon

jump

power word blind/stun/kill

heal companion (beastmaster)

heal animal (druid)

blinding beauty (sorcerer)

physical boost (wizard)

hunter's vision (ranger)

untwisting iron buffer (student of perfection)

unfolding wind rush (student of perfection)

personal blizzard (witch)

ancestral touch (oracle)

gravity weapon (ranger)

soul siphon (oracle)

tempest touch (oracle)

blood ward (witch)

compositions

litanies

Reactions:

foresight

contingency

shield

blood vendetta

flame barrier

energy absorption

feather fall

drop dead

spell turning

rebounding barrier

scintillating safeguard

ancestral defense (oracle)

zeal for battle (cleric)

know the enemy (cleric)

battlefield persistence (oracle)

arcane countermeasure (sorcerer)

bottle the storm (cleric)

enduring might (cleric)

perfect strike (student of perfection)

Cleric or Oracle would mostly be stuck with harm/heal but on the flipside have a lot of...

for Witch all Hex cantrips and 1st level Hexes are 1 action (or a reaction)

[Mellored]

Stealth Bomber.

Winter Witch
Trained in Stealth.

Familair has independent, share senses, and survivability stuff.
1: Cackle (focus point)
2: Familiar Master
4: Familiar Conduit
6: Improved Familiar (Imp)
8: Greater Lesson (Personal Blizzard)
10: Incredible Familiar (possibly retrain later)
12: Familiar's Eyes (or keep using familiar senses)
14: Hex Focus
16: Effortless Concentration
18: Hex Wellspring
20: Patron's Truth

Imp cast Invisibility and sneak up to the next corner within line of effect. Use familiar senses/facility's eyes.
On your turn, you do Familiar Conduit + Personal Blizzard / Sustain + Clinging Ice + Imp independently Sneaks.

These are all non-verbal spells that "you" are casting. So the Imp should stay invisible/undetected after sneaking, and you should stay unnoticed.

This is not going to be doing a lot of damage before they find you, or kill the familiar. But it should let you get a few pokes in before things really started. And you still got all your slots and allies.

Plays really well with a snarecrafter ally.

[Reticent]

Stormbow- Druid/Archer/Eldritch Archer/Ranger

Rational: Storm Order Druids only have access to few feats that are especially good, and that opens them up to the possibility of really loading up on Archetype feats. This build leans in hard on building up their skills with a bow, and pretty much comes fully online using the Tempest Surge focus spell with Eldritch Shot at level 12.

Options: There are a ton of strong feat choices available for levels 14 to 20, and really it's all just gravy at that point.

Human Storm Order Druid

1: Storm Born, (Ancestry) Natural Ambition: Verdant Weapon (use a bow as both your main weapon and your casting focus after level 2)
2: Archer Dedication
4: Point Blank Shot
6: Parting Shot
8: Wind Caller
10: Mobile Shot Stance
12: Eldritch Archer Dedication
13: (Ancestry) Multi-talented: Ranger Dedication
14:
16:
18:
20:

[Ventnor]

Reticent wrote:

Stormbow- Druid/Archer/Eldritch Archer/Ranger

Rational: Storm Order Druids only have access to few feats that are especially good, and that opens them up to the possibility of really loading up on Archetype feats. This build leans in hard on building up their skills with a bow, and pretty much comes fully online using the Tempest Surge focus spell with Eldritch Shot at level 12.

Options: There are a ton of strong feat choices available for levels 14 to 20, and really it's all just gravy at that point.

Human Storm Order Druid

1: Storm Born, (Ancestry) Natural Ambition: Verdant Weapon (use a bow as both your main weapon and your casting focus after level 2)
2: Archer Dedication
4: Point Blank Shot
6: Parting Shot
8: Wind Caller
10: Mobile Shot Stance
12: Eldritch Archer Dedication
13: (Ancestry) Multi-talented: Ranger Dedication
14:
16:
18:
20:

I'm afraid that your main trick here isn't going to work. Eldritch Shot only works with spells that require a spell attack roll, and Tempest Surge forces the enemy to make a saving throw. That said, there are quite a few spells on the Primal List that do use a spell attack roll, so it can still work. Just not with druidic focus spells.

[Reticent]

Ventnor wrote:

I'm afraid that your main trick here isn't going to work. Eldritch Shot only works with spells that require a spell attack roll, and Tempest Surge forces the enemy to make a saving throw. That said, there are quite a few spells on the Primal List that do use a spell attack roll, so it can still work. Just not with druidic focus spells.

Good point! More focus points to spend flying away from danger with Wind Caller I guess.

[Xenocrat]

Alchemist bomber with Witch MC dedication plus Basic Lesson for Elemental Betrayal.

The familiar will have valet to hand you bombs without having to invest in quickdraw heavily. A full action would be ordering the familiar to hand you two bombs and throwing them. With valet plus independent you get one free bomb draw per round without having to spend an action. You probably take Far Lobber as your first round feat, 2nd level is your Witch dedication which effectively provides you with the benefits of both Alchemical Familiar and (most of) Quick Bomber.

Elemental Betrayal of course adds on damage for your fire or cold bombs, including any persistent, plus helps allies who have their own sources of those damage or who you've lent a bomb to. If you pick up a second focus point, or can have your familiar refresh one, doubling up both cold and fire by double hexing would seem a way to make your persistent damage work extra hard, although you'll have only one action left, so hope you don't need to move.

You also get the usual spellcaster benefits that Wizard MC used to provide - Int synergy and a cantrip for low level offense when you run out of bombs.

[Gaulin]

Thought of a neat build today.

Start off with fighter leshy. Stats are a little tricky, but you can get 18 STR, 12 CON, 12 DEX, 12 WIS, 14 INT, 8 CHA.

Get whichever 1st level feat/skill/etc you want at level 1.

Level 2, witch dedication.

Level 4, basic witchcraft -> basic lesson -> Lesson of life for some good healing potential.

Level 5, boost up STR, CON, DEX, and WIS.

Level 6, Advanced Witchcraft -> Wortwitch to get a leshy familiar.

Level 8, Druid dedication.

Level 10, verdant weapon.

You now have a leshy familiar, give it the plant form ability, and make it able to transform into a seed. You can probably see where this is going by now; use verdant weapon on the seed that the familiar turns into. As an action, your familiar can turn into a seed, and you can turn that seed into a weapon. You have a weapon that has access to a ton of familiar abilities, that 'returns' to you the next day if it's destroyed, you can shunt it into another dimension with pet cache (if you want to invest in casting feats), all sorts of cool stuff.

[manbearscientist]

Switch Hitting Fighter

Human - Versatile (Str/Dex)
Background - various (Str/Dex)
Fighter - Dex
1- Str/Dex/Con/Wis

At level 1, use your ancestry feat to pick up unconventional weaponry to get access to the Dwarven Clan Dagger. From then on, the build goes

1-Double Slice
2-Archer Dedication
4-Quick Shot
5-Point-Blank Shot, pick Knives for weapon mastery group
6-Double Shot (Archer Dedication)
8-Triple Shot
9-Twin Parry / Blindfight
10-Agile Grace
12-Eldritch Archer Dedication
14-Two-Weapon Flurry
15-Stance Savant
16-Graceful Poise (retrain PBS to Combat Assessment)
18-Multishot Stance (Retrain Graceful Poise to Precious Arrow).
20-Ultimate Flexibility (Twinned Defense, Impossible Volley, Graceful Poise)

What's this all about? Flexibility. Between a regular knife (S/P damage), a dwarven clan dagger (B/S damage) and a composite longbow you can hit any physical damage type using your highest attack bonus. Later on, you use Eldritch Archer to target material weaknesses with Precious Arrow as well as elemental weaknesses with Eldritch Shot.

This is all about flexibility. If combat opens up in long range, you can go turret-mode. If you need to tank up, you have the parry trait on Clan Dagger and eventually reach +7 Dexterity for better-than-plate armor unarmored defense. If you need to focus on putting out attacks, you can go flurry-mode.

At level 5, you are a master in all your weapons (+16) rather than just one thanks to Archer Dedication, and this is where the build starts to really do its thing. I recommend picking up Doubling Rings and maybe a Returning Rune, letting you use your knives in midrange combat as well (though given their low dice, it may be best to maximize damage runes).

[Dragonchess Player]

Early concept stage, but Catfolk/Changeling heritage (Slag May; Darkvision, cold iron claws with the Grapple trait) Feybound (maybe related to Ragadahn; possibly to keep the character mostly on the side of the fey) Oracle (Tempest mystery*) going into the Mauler archetype; use spells to buff as needed before smashing face. Starting 16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha.

Still working out skill advances and feats in Athletics to jump and grapple better (plus Diplomacy and Bon Mot; maybe also Intimidation and demoralize feats).

*- taking out their irritation at never being completely dry on their enemies

[puksone]

Little Holy Eldritch Archer

Halfling Fighter with Champion and Eldritch Archer dedication.

-Besides the Investigator, the Fighter works great in combination with the Eldritch Archer.

-To get a high damage focus spell (withering grasp) -> Champion.

-Halfling has a reroll feat for attack rolls. Perfect for the Eldritch Archer.

Stats: Dex 18/Cha 14

Ancestry feats:
1 - Halfling luck
9 - Guiding Luck

Class feats:
1 - Point Blank
2 - Champion Dedication
4 - Deity's Domain - > Withering grasp
6 - Desperate Prayer
8 - Eldritch Archer
10 - Basic Spellcasting

Withering grasp does 1d12 + 1d4 persistent damage.
Heightend: +1d12 + 1 persistent

After a fight you can refocus your focus spell. Spellcasting is super late with lvl 10, though.

[manbearscientist]

Weapons Platform

Ancestry: Human
Class: Fighter (Dexterity)
Stats: Dex > Int

1-Point Blank Shot
1-Combat Assessment (Natural Ambition)
2-Alchemist Dedication
4-Far Lobber
5-Rebounding Toss
6-Alchemical Familiar (Valet, Manual Dexterity)
8-Expert Alchemist
9-Ranger Dedication (Multitalented)
10-Master Alchemist
12-Gravity Weapon (Ranger)
14-Far Shot
15-Debilitating Shot
16-Rogue Dedication
18-Strong Arm
20-Weapon Supremacy

Skills: Recall knowledge focus.

This build is all about bombs. Far Lobber increases a bomb's range increment to 30 feet. Strong Arm increases it by 10 feet to 40 feet. Far Shot doubles it to 80 feet. Hunt Prey lets us ignore range increment penalties out to our second range increment (160 feet). Our alchemical familiar reloads for us, letting us make two Strikes per round with our pre-made bombs (we don't use Quick Alchemy).

Fighter gives us maximum proficiency in bombs. Gravity Weapon increases our bomb damage by a significant amount, up to +16 on our first bomb after greater weapon specialization.

Rebounding Toss means that we can Double Slice with our bombs (somehow, don't question it). Debilitating Shot lets us use bombs to give a target slowed 1 without a save. Combat Assessment is used to give our Intelligence something to do, mainly focusing on finding the right bomb for the job.

This can easily be done a Ranger base instead. That might even be better for damage, as you could get the Precision Edge and Deadly Aim. Legendary Shot and Penetrating Shot are also pretty thematic choices for your super arm, being able to hurl a bomb within 400 feet without taking range penalties and literally throwing a bomb through a person.

[Xenocrat]

Investigator Bomber

Alchemical method (for flexible full power elixirs in addition to bombs)

Ancestry: Ancient Elf (Alchemist MC Dedication and speed boosts with ancestry feats)

1: Known Weakness, Alchemist MC Dedication
2: Shared Stratagem
4: Basic Concoction (Quick Bomber)
6: Expert Alchemy
8: Advanced Concoction (Calculated Splash)
10: Suspect of Opportunity
12: Master Alchemy
14: Ongoing Strategy
16: Didactic Strike
18: Trickster's Ace
20: Everyone's a Suspect

You have a rapier in one hand, and a seemingly harmless free hand. But your Sleeves of Storing are full of an assortment of bombs you brewed up at the beginning of the day.

You Devise a Stratagem, get Known Weakness to hopefully reveal resistances/weaknesses, and then hit it with an appropriate bomb for precision damage and to inflict flat footed on it for an ally. As an elf with 40 speed (Fleet and the elf racial boost) plus any status bonus from your elixirs (consider Quicksilver to max speed and ranged attack bonus), you zoom around the battlefield, using your rapier (where you still spent your money, after all) if someone closes with you.

[Ravingdork]

Why does Alchemist Dedication seem so popular all of a sudden?

[Xenocrat]

Free bombs are better with the new APG options and the better offensive chassis have new tricks to use them effectively even without all the Alchemist feats.

[Dargath]

Is there anyway to make a melee strike with a ranged weapon, like a hand-crossbow? Otherwise.... I genuinely am not sure what to make of the Dual Reload talent for the Dual-Weapon Fighter because Double Slice requires two melee weapons, one in each hand. I’ve been trying to figure out if a character who is like a Pirate with a Cutlass and Pistol would work, or a witch hunter with a sword and pistol or whatever... but it doesn’t seem to function in the rules?

[manbearscientist]

Dargath wrote:

Is there anyway to make a melee strike with a ranged weapon, like a hand-crossbow? Otherwise.... I genuinely am not sure what to make of the Dual Reload talent for the Dual-Weapon Fighter because Double Slice requires two melee weapons, one in each hand. I’ve been trying to figure out if a character who is like a Pirate with a Cutlass and Pistol would work, or a witch hunter with a sword and pistol or whatever... but it doesn’t seem to function in the rules?

Dual Thrower, from the same archetype, lets you replace a melee strike with a ranged strike for any feat in the archetype, including Double Slice.

[Dargath]

manbearscientist wrote:

Dargath wrote:

Is there anyway to make a melee strike with a ranged weapon, like a hand-crossbow? Otherwise.... I genuinely am not sure what to make of the Dual Reload talent for the Dual-Weapon Fighter because Double Slice requires two melee weapons, one in each hand. I’ve been trying to figure out if a character who is like a Pirate with a Cutlass and Pistol would work, or a witch hunter with a sword and pistol or whatever... but it doesn’t seem to function in the rules?

Dual Thrower, from the same archetype, lets you replace a melee strike with a ranged strike for any feat in the archetype, including Double Slice.

:o mind blown... so if you get them together you can double slice a Hand Crossbow and a Sword.... too bad you can’t get it all until level 6. It’s not a functioning build at low levels :(

[Xenocrat]

Alchemist plus Oracle MC dedication (flames) plus First Revelation.

You're all about casting Incendiary Aura, rushing into groups, and setting them on fire with splash damage from your free alchemist's fire to trigger Incendiary Aura's persistent fire damage and effortlessly reapply it when enemies put it out.

Take diehard and maybe some of those new ancestral feats that manage the wounded condition, you're going down a lot when you pickup flat footed from the moderate curse the second and subsequent battles every day. At least the minor curse concealment beyond 30' doesn't matter that much to you.

Ironically you might be better off taking mutagenist research field so you can buff in a way to keep yourself alive and potentially spam revifying mutagen for self healing, just picking up infinite alchemist fire via Perpetual Breadth at 8.

[Ravingdork]

Xenocrat wrote:

Free bombs are better with the new APG options and the better offensive chassis have new tricks to use them effectively even without all the Alchemist feats.

The Dedication feat says that "Your advanced alchemy level is 1 and doesn’t increase on its own."

The alchemist class' Advanced Alchemy ability says the following:

Your advanced alchemy level is equal to your level. For each batch of infused reagents you spend, choose an alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that’s in your formula book, and make a batch of two of that item.

Doesn't that limit you to 1st-level bombs and alchemical items?

Seems about as attractive to me as the rogue archetype's never scaling 1d6 sneak attack.

[Xenocrat]

Ravingdork wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Free bombs are better with the new APG options and the better offensive chassis have new tricks to use them effectively even without all the Alchemist feats.

The Dedication feat says that "Your advanced alchemy level is 1 and doesn’t increase on its own."

The alchemist class' Advanced Alchemy ability says the following:

Your advanced alchemy level is equal to your level. For each batch of infused reagents you spend, choose an alchemical item of your advanced alchemy level or lower that’s in your formula book, and make a batch of two of that item.

Doesn't that limit you to 1st-level bombs and alchemical items?

By "without all the Alchemist feats" I mean without the Alchemist class feats that specifically boost bombs, not without the other Alchemist MC feats.

The later feats increase your advanced alchemy level. For three feats (including the dedication) at level 16 you can get the level 11 bombs (second best) one level after the alchemist gets access to the level 17 (best). Add in better proficiency (much better on the fighter) and precision damage/preroll on the Investigator and you can do some interesting things, and you can still take a few bomb specific feats for extra splash damage, range, or quick draw.

[Ravingdork]

Got it. Thanks. I didn't realize you could scale the level with additional feats.

Cool.

[Xenocrat]

Investigator "bow slinger"

2: Archer Dedication (get crit specialization)
4: Quick Shot (draw and shoot a bow with one action - can work with Sleeves of Storing for a shortbow so no one knows you're "carrying")
8: Archer's Aim (+2 circumstance bonus to attack, ignore concealment! Works great with Devise a Strategem to extend your hit/crit range to decide to take the shot)

Round 1: Devise a Stratagem and Quick Shot, followed by strike or movement as appropriate.
Round 2+: Devise a Stratagem and Archer's Aim whenever a crit is on offer with that sweet +2 to hit.

[Reticent]

Circus Animal-

Wildshape Druids have a hefty load of high priority class feats to take, but there's JUST enough room to pick up Acrobat Dedication and Dodge Away at levels 2 and 6 respectively. Acrobatic Dedication gives the Druid some much welcomed "free" skill advances while ensuring access to the clutch skill feat Aerobatics Mastery at level 7, while Dodge Away is an all-star reaction whenever you're attacked in melee, regardless of what form you're in.

1) Wild Shape
2) Acrobat Dedication
4) Form Control
6) Dodge Away
7) Aerobatics Mastery
8) Soaring Shape
10) Healing Transformation/Plant Shape/Elemental Shape (any of these)
12) Dragon Shape
14) Reactive Transformation
16) Monstrosity Shape
18) Perfect Form Control
20) True Shapeshifter

[Xenocrat]

I'm Batman

Investigator (Archetypes: Sentinel, Martial Artist, Vigilante)
Ancestry: Human
Methodology: Alchemical sciences

1: Known Weakness, Underworld Investigator, Armor Proficiency (medium)
2: Vigilante Dedication
4: Hidden Magic (skill feat), Safe House
6: Sentinel Dedication
8: Armor Specialist (skill), Armored Rebuff
10: Martial Artist Dedication, Quick Change (skill - I think it's missing this trait as errata)
12: Stumbling Stance
14: Followup Strike
16: Grievous Blow
18: Trickster's Ace
20: Everyone's a Suspect

Obviously better with free archetype so you can get some more vigilante and investigator feats.

But this gets you your choice of medium/heavy armor with the resistance type you want for a given mission, some good punching damage from Stumbling Stance and setting up better Devise a Stratagem results when you get hit (because flat footed), followup strike lets you burn a bad Stratagem roll because you don't take MAP for the second attempt (this one is replaceable, though), and Grievous Blow is your go to for great damage when you have a solid hit or crit from Devise a Stratagem.

[manbearscientist]

Class Rogue (Eldritch Trickster-Cleric)
Ancestry: Human (Half-Elf)

God: Elvish Pantheon

Initial Stats: 12/16/12/10/18/10

1-Nimble Dodge (NA)
1-Trap Finder
2-Magical Trickster
4-Domain Initiate (Moon)
6-Poison Weapon
8-Eldritch Archer Dedication (Ray of Frost)
10-Improved Poison Weapon
12-Deadly Poison Weapon
14-Expanded Domain Initiate (Magic)
16-Advanced Domain (Moon)
18-Arrow of Death
20-Hidden Paragon
Final Stats
18/22/18/10/22/16
(Note: Pick up a wand of Heroism)

Explanation: Big ole Moonbeam Eldritch Shots/Arrow of Death. Eventually you hit the following on Eldritch Shot (assuming Heroism):

+38/+36/+28 (deadly d10): 4d6+10 P + 4d6 (energy runes) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 10d6 (Moonbeam) + 4d4 (deadly poison)

That's 97 damage per hit. Moonbeam is also pretty beneficial to throw out at all levels; it inflicts dazzled, letting you Hide from the creature you hit thanks to the concealed from dazzled. Alternatively, any fire domain god does even more damage (2d6, rather than 1d6).

Also, if you like going first, getting incredible initiative on a Wisdom key-stat class with legendary proficiency in perception is a good way to do it.

[Reticent]

Stay Out of My Personal Space

This is a pure gimmick build designed to stack Shoving Sweeps/Shove Down/The Harder They Fall/Boundless Reprisals to fling to the ground anything trying to move within reach of your weapon. Use a reach/shove or reach/trip weapon for maximum effect. It also stacks Improved Knockdown/Sneak Attacker/The Harder They Fall as the main offensive action on its own turn. (Though there's almost certainly a better build for that second feat stack just going Rogue(Ruffian)/Mauler).

Human Fighter/Mauler/Rogue

1) Power Attack
2) Mauler Dedication
4) Knockdown (Mauler)
6) Advantageous Assault
8) Shoving Sweep
9) Multitalented (Rogue Dedication)
10) Improved Knockdown (Fighter)
12) Sneak Attacker
14) Basic Trickery (any)
16) Advanced Trickery (Shove Down)
18) The Harder They Fall
20) Boundless Reprisals

[manbearscientist]

Nailin' Monk
Class: Monk (Witch archetype, Winter patron)
Ancestry: Elf (Ancient)
Initial Stats: 18/16/10/14/10/10
Important Ancestry/General feats: Nimble Elf, Nimble

1-Ki Strike / Witch Dedication
2-Elemental Fist
4-Basic Lesson - Elements
6-Cauldron
8-Eldritch Nails
10-Ki Rush
12-Major Lesson - Snow
14-Enhanced Familiar
16-Incredible Familiar
18-Diamond Fists
20-Golden Body

What we are doing? Hitting people with nails.

What else? Using elemental betrayal to make the opponent weak to fire/cold and then using Flurry, Ki Strike, or Nailstrike to deliver elemental damage.

What else? Being force-fed potions. Our friendly familiar will eventually learn to grab potions from our bag and force feed them to us. Retribution is the most important here, letting us exploit the weakness we are putting on our enemy. Quickness also helps us with our struggling action economy.

[Dragonchess Player]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Early concept stage, but Catfolk/Changeling heritage (Slag May; Darkvision, cold iron claws with the Grapple trait) Feybound (maybe related to Ragadahn; possibly to keep the character mostly on the side of the fey) Oracle (Tempest mystery) going into the Mauler archetype; use spells to buff as needed before smashing face. Starting 16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 16 Cha.

After some thought, here is what I'm considering:

1st- Slag May, Tempest mystery
2nd- Mauler Dedication, Bon Mot
3rd- Ancestral Paragon (Cat's Luck), Expert in Intimidation
4th- Divine Access (probably Gozreh for lightning bolt), Intimidating Prowess
5th- 18 Str/16 Dex/10 Wis/18 Cha or 18 Str/16 Dex/14 Con/18 Cha, Springing Leaper, Expert in Athletics
6th- Knockdown, Titan Wrestler
7th- Fleet, Master in Intimidation
8th- Advanced Revelation, Battle Cry
9th- Expanded Luck, Expert in Diplomacy
10th- 19 Str/14 Con/14 Int/19 Cha or 19 Str/16 Con/10 Wis/19 Cha, Quickened Casting, Quick Jump
11th- Incredible Initiative, Master in Athletics
12th- Improved Knockdown, Powerful Leap
13th- Hag Magic (earthbind), Master in Diplomacy
14th- Forestall Curse, Glad Hand or Group Impression
15th- 20 Str/16 Con/12 Wis/20 Cha or 20 Str/18 Con/12 Wis/20 Cha, A Home in Every Port, Legendary in Athletics
16th- Avalanche Strike, Cloud Jump
17th- Apex Item (belt of giant strength), Reliable Luck, Legendary in Intimidation
18th- Blaze of Revelation*, Scare to Death
19th- (general feat), (skill increase)
20th- Mystery Conduit, (skill feat)

Not sure on whether to go with bo staff (d8, parry, reach, trip), glaive (d8, deadly d8, forceful, reach), or guisarme (d10, reach, trip). Maybe bo staff or guisarme early and glaive for Avalanche Strike.

*- With the re-roll on a failure or critical failure (re-roll a critical failure) on the DC 40 Fort save with Cat's Luck/Expanded Luck/Reliable Luck, there is only a 2.25% chance (16 Con and a +2 save item gives a Fort save bonus of +18 (level) +4 (Expert) +3 (Con) + 2 (item) = +27; 0.15 x 0.15 = 0.0225) or 1% chance (18 Con and a +2 save item gives a Fort save bonus of +18 (level) +4 (Expert) +4 (Con) + 2 (item) = +28; 0.1 x 0.1 = 0.01) of dying per use from a critical failure; dropping to 1% or 0.25% at 19th level and 0% (including a +3 save item) at 20th level. As long as the character isn't taking any penalties to Fort saves, at least.

[cavernshark]

manbearscientist wrote:

Class Rogue (Eldritch Trickster-Cleric)

Ancestry: Human (Half-Elf)

God: Elvish Pantheon

Initial Stats: 12/16/12/10/18/10

1-Nimble Dodge (NA)
1-Trap Finder
2-Magical Trickster
4-Domain Initiate (Moon)
6-Poison Weapon
8-Eldritch Archer Dedication (Ray of Frost)
10-Improved Poison Weapon
12-Deadly Poison Weapon
14-Expanded Domain Initiate (Magic)
16-Advanced Domain (Moon)
18-Arrow of Death
20-Hidden Paragon
Final Stats
18/22/18/10/22/16
(Note: Pick up a wand of Heroism)

Explanation: Big ole Moonbeam Eldritch Shots/Arrow of Death. Eventually you hit the following on Eldritch Shot (assuming Heroism):

+38/+36/+28 (deadly d10): 4d6+10 P + 4d6 (energy runes) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 10d6 (Moonbeam) + 4d4 (deadly poison)

That's 97 damage per hit. Moonbeam is also pretty beneficial to throw out at all levels; it inflicts dazzled, letting you Hide from the creature you hit thanks to the concealed from dazzled. Alternatively, any fire domain god does even more damage (2d6, rather than 1d6).

Also, if you like going first, getting incredible initiative on a Wisdom key-stat class with legendary proficiency in perception is a good way to do it.

You need to drop Poison Weapon and take something like Basic Cleric Spellcasting at 6 for this to work. As much as it seems like Eldritch Scoundrel should have an easier time getting into Eldritch Archer, you still need to take the two archetype feats before going into a new dedication. Unfortunately, that shifts all your poison weapon feats down and kind of messes with the whole thing.