So, in a blatant rip-off of Inqusitive Teifling's thread, my question to the forum is, what do we want out of a shifter?
I didn't put a lot of thought into it, but on the chance we get a playtest for it later this year, might as well start.
I think I want Ooze, Animal, Dragon, and Plant forms from level 1. Construct and Undead are problematic, and the various planar entities (including Fey) I'd rather push out to later books.
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First of all, I was actually a little giddy to see that I was "ripped off". Means the conversation has made an impact and inspired people, and that gives me a sense of accomplishment.
Regarding the meat of the subject; I actually really do like the theme and concept of the Shifter. Taking something as established as the Druid's wild shape changed in such a way to make it focus on martial prowess? That is actually really cool.
Personally while wild shape is painfully obvious, I'd also want to see Shifter get the wild morph focus spell along with the feats that let them do more with said spells. More than just the transformations, I want to see Shifter get feats based on using those transformations with martial attacks and maneuvers.
Probably the more difficult part of it is how polymorph spells work now. You could, I suppose, go a route similar to how Barbarians work with their animal instinct and resulting transformation. As well as just how many possible transformations there are and making feats to match up with all of them.
Most of all though I'd really just want the Shifter to fit into that "wild fighter" kind of thematic, attacking with fang and claw but in a way that's nonetheless reminiscent of a controlled martial art form. I mean in MMO's brawlers and such are always using daggers or knuckles or "claws" ala the Shredder/Wolverine.
You never see something focused around outright leaping at and shredding your foes, and Shifter provides that without being hampered by being a spell-focused class.
I like the idea of changing up wild shape as you grow in levels. Maybe you can become a swarm of small creatures, or only polymorph certain body parts.
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I'm not sure that the Shifter has enough mechanical depth to it to deserve a whole class on its own anymore, but instead would fit in as Doctrine of the Druid, like a Warpriest.
How would that be different than just a Wild Order Druid?
This isn’t a troll question by the way; what mechanics would the Shifter Order offer to the class? Would you remove or alter existing class features, or just like add Ooze form as a transmutation spell?
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I'm not sure that the Shifter has enough mechanical depth to it to deserve a whole class on its own anymore, but instead would fit in as Doctrine of the Druid, like a Warpriest.
I dunno about that. At base, you can sorta make a shifter by building a Wild Order Druid, and then totally forgetting about your spellcasting, except for Wild Morph and Wild Shape. Now, you could trade that spellcasting away for Martial proficiencies, and that’s how I would implement a shifter. (To keep the thread on topic, I’m not going to propose specific proficiency increases) So class path/Doctrine? Not really. Maybe a Class Archetype that makes that trade? That I could believe.
I'm not sure that the Shifter has enough mechanical depth to it to deserve a whole class on its own anymore, but instead would fit in as Doctrine of the Druid, like a Warpriest.(To keep the thread on topic, I’m not going to propose specific proficiency increases) So class path/Doctrine? Not really. Maybe a Class Archetype that makes that trade? That I could believe.
No no, you're fine. What proficiencies do you think they'd need? Assuming they got wild morph/wild shape, which messes with the expected curve a bit.
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I don't know if this is entirely reasonable, but given that the shape spells are good enough for combat without overshadowing martials, would it be reasonable to have Shifter be closer to at-will? Probably not balanced; getting your AC and accuracy progression set by an at-will ability frees up a lot of wealth.
As for what I'd like to see, I'd prefer the Shifter to have options to focus on disguise and the Deception skill. A bit more doppelganger feel, a bit less martial Druid feel. Perhaps a Shifter class path with Arcane ties instead of Primal?
No no, you're fine. What proficiencies do you think they'd need? Assuming they got wild morph/wild shape, which messes with the expected curve a bit.I'm not sure that the Shifter has enough mechanical depth to it to deserve a whole class on its own anymore, but instead would fit in as Doctrine of the Druid, like a Warpriest.(To keep the thread on topic, I’m not going to propose specific proficiency increases) So class path/Doctrine? Not really. Maybe a Class Archetype that makes that trade? That I could believe.
They are a Martial, so they should get Master attacks / Master AC. Now the AC would be subsumed while in Wild Shape I guess, but they should still be functional when only using Wild Morph. I’d also give them Master or Legendary Fortitude, given that their whole schtick is control of their bodies. (Maybe Will comes down from Master). I guess that Master Attack + the Wild Shape status bonus for using their own stats puts them at Fighter accuracy, but the Fighter can still get e.g. Heroism for a status bonus on top. Just spitballing here, haven’t thought it through too hard yet.
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Does a shifter have to be tied to wild shape and/or the form spells? I could see them getting a unique unlimited use action akin to rage that allows them to totally or partially shift into an animal and get appropriate abilities.
Another thing I'd like from it is to fix my biggest problem with wild druid: I want to turn into animals all the way to 20th level. I dislike how early forms go out of style for the wild druid, and for the shifter I want to keep being viable all the way through.
I think one of the hurdles for shifter is how do you separate them enough from animal barbarians or wild druids. On the martial side animal barbarians basically do that version of shifter well if you are looking for a transforming strong melee combatant. For those more into shape shifting into various things the druid fills that role pretty well.
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Shifters should not be topping damage per round charts. We don't need a massive amount of damage making it hard to justify what should be extremely high levels of versatility.
What I would love to see from a shifter includes:
1. Encouraged shifting. Not selecting a single form and staying in it for as long as possible.
2. Utility forms. A shifter shouldn't be forced to choose between either doing acceptably in combat OR being able to turn into a mouse or a bird for utility.
3. Fast shifting. Being able to shift during a charge is pretty key.
4. No anathema. These aren't really druids, although some could roleplay that way.
5. Good survivability. They should be able to take a hit, and recover from a hit.
I guess the base question is: how closely do we want to adhere to the PF1 shifter? Many would describe it as a failed class, but it’s easy enough to use the tools of PF2 to make it functional. But should we try to emulate its capabilities, or start over?
Edit: PF1 Shifters sorta were Druids, in that they spoke Druidic, and that was considered correct by Druids. So if we preserve that, I imagine some ananthema would come with.
Most of that should exist from the start, though it can always expand. Actual changing into different forms from level 1, not just claws or something. Enough uses and long enough uses that they can do their thing during both fights and for out of combat utility. Thus multiple times per day with good duration and multiple forms to choose from. At higher levels you get better forms and abilities, not the ability to actually be a shifter for most of a session.
I feel that a Wild Order Druid gets all of this. Sure, Pest Form is not a combat form and the Druid needs to use Wild Morph for combat until 3rd level. As for staying power; in my experience getting to Refocus between combats is the norm, not the exception.
Definitely NOT locked to one 'type' of shifter (save that for archetypes or something).
Flexibility and form-change from L1 (even if the shapes aren't all that great) not just some claws or something.
Claws or bite or both all the time no matter the form if it's large enough to matter.
Can assume multiple forms during usages of said power, perhaps as a two or three action sort of thing in a given turn?
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Before a shifter is even attempted Paizo has to clarify how the existing animal form etc spells interact with magic items, class features etc. See various threads for detailed questions.
But my shifter would be a class that has a martial framework and gets access to the various wild form feats at a pace at least equal to the druid. Together with perhaps some mechanism of quicker shifting.
That really is sufficient to cover 75% of my goals. It needs some damage boosting ability to bring it up to near that of a pure martial (its damage capability SHOULD be lower than other martials due to increased flexibility but not much lower).
Anything past that is pure gravy.
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One thing I'd desperately want to see from a PF2 Shifter is to see it decoupled from the nature/primal themeing.
We have animal barbarians and Wild Druids that already do a pretty good job blending animal shifting and hybridization into the game.
It's other kinds of shapechanging that seem less well supported that I'd like to see the Shifter be able to provide options for.
I feel like that was one of the reasons the Shifter fell so flat in PF1 anyways, it basically just did the same thing the Druid did but without all the extra stuff Druids got.
IMO, the best way to make a Shifter would be to genericize it and instead use Class Paths and Feats as ways to upgrade and enhance your form. Instead of just gaining Wild Shape, having a generic Battle Form as a sort of rage-equivalent ability and then being able to take feats that expand upon what you can do in Battle Form would be really awesome.
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Give me a martial shifter that uses different forms to be as versatile as a caster, not a "build yourself a tough form" thug.
That's fair. I think versatility is important too (although I think you could accomplish both on the same package through different forms and options without too much trouble).
For me the big thing is getting away from the Shifter just being a spell-less Druid and playing more into the idea of a mystical warrior who uses shapeshifting the same way a monk uses their body or a fighter uses their chosen weapon and I think allowing a Shifter to add things to a form beyond the norm through character options would be a good way to empower that fantasy a bit.
I also wouldn't mind them stepping away from the Druid-lite class description, but I think they should have the option of having their focus spells stay Primal. Having them be either Arcane or Primal for their focus spells would work for me.
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The problem with classes like the shifter and the kineticist is that they need a large complicated subsystem to be done well. If they're built like a current martial or spellcaster they won't be right.
Given that pf2 seems to be trying to move away from complexity, I have fears we won't see something like the pf1 kineticist again.
The problem with classes like the shifter and the kineticist is that they need a large complicated subsystem to be done well. If they're built like a current martial or spellcaster they won't be right.
Given that pf2 seems to be trying to move away from complexity, I have fears we won't see something like the pf1 kineticist again.
Current past level 1 the only choice with odd level class features is selecting spells (/skill feats for the rogue)
Shifters need choices with their odd level class features to be done well.
The problem with classes like the shifter and the kineticist is that they need a large complicated subsystem to be done well. If they're built like a current martial or spellcaster they won't be right.
Given that pf2 seems to be trying to move away from complexity, I have fears we won't see something like the pf1 kineticist again.
Current past level 1 the only choice with odd level class features is selecting spells (/skill feats for the rogue)
Shifters need choices with their odd level class features to be done well.
What kind of choices would they need to make at odd levels? We're just throwing stuff at the wall anyways, so feel free to imagine stuff that PF2 seems to have moved away from.
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It could also work similar to a Familiar or the fighter's adjustable feat (or prepared spells really), where you have a wide number of choices that you pick for the day each morning. Maybe even build-a-bear yourself a default form that you enter for free, but use focus points to adjust it as needed throughout the day. Like give yourself a pounce attack and very sharp claws, and you can enter that form as much as you'd like (or even just stay in the form all day), but after 9th and 15th levels you can add 1-2 new features at the cost of a focus point, so you can bolt on a fly speed or Precise sense (scent).
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Off topic, but as I typed that I got a mental image of a Leshy wiggling a furred claw around and yelling out "Look at me! I'm a mammal!" and felt I needed to share that with the forum.
Maybe it would be a good idea to look specifically at Reactive Shifter, rather than the base form?
It's my understanding that the Reactive Shifter archetype was released as an intentional upgrade/buff to the original.
I feel strongly that it has a lot of potential, but that vision probably drifts away from narrowly focused 'polymorph class' many seem to see it as. Essentially, I would double down on it as Primal-infused character. This would be adjacent to Druidism, but without the Anathema related to ideology, you could be "friends" with Nature or not give a shit and harness it's power for destructive ends. Alot of it's powers COULD probably cross over with Neutral Champion of Druidism, who of course WOULD be Anathema-bound (perhaps even more than Druids themselves), but I don't think there would be difficulty keeping that distinct.
Anyway, the classic Shifter morphing and polymorphing would essentially become an aspect of this Primal connection. But that's not all Primal does, right? I see it encompassing not just Shifting, and Animal Empathy/etc, but Plant magic, and even Elemental magic... which could be manifested like a Kineticist. So my proposal is approaching Shifter and Kineticist via one single class. Not all of this would be trivially accessible to all Shifters at the same time, since that is too close to what Druid already does...
But like Kineticist makes choice of Elements, this "Primarch" would make choices between different Elements, Animal morphing, and Plant based magic. You could specialize fully into Animal shifting, or Plant magic, or Elemental or even just Fire magic... But you could also blend those. With Primal magic tying it all together, it seems very plausible to have a Jaguar shifter who also controls Plants and has Fire Element connection. Elemental Form morphing could be part on that side of things, or even be combinable with other forms. That also ties in with heritage of Elemental-templated Animals and creatures. Animal and Plant magic can be manifested in external ways as well (not morphing). Focus would probably play a big role, but not necessarily the SOLE role as plenty of stuff could be done at-will or permanent too.
I feel that builds on what is a more coherent base, that places it within broader metaphysics of world, doubling down on and expanding on Primal connection. I think it opens interesting playstyles / combos of Primal focuses that would be appealing, and this goes both from Shifter and Kineticist end of things. Even if you want purely Elemental focus, I think this is good framework for that, supporting strong polymorph aspect along with non-slot limited magical powers whatever their specific form. I feel like cross-polination with Druidic Champion also would work well, which probably would have less variety/flexibility but also more focused power... both Feats and generic math chassis. I feel it is also more efficient as Multiclass, and avoids un-necessary Class spam by having just one Primal Focus class.
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I would prefer if they couldn't actually wildshape. Instead, they "kind" of wildshape. Sure, they can grow claws, but they can't turn into a bird.
Then... I want them to turn "being bad at wildshaping" into an artform. Why go for a stable, consistent shape? Grab a bit of everything. Grab the best things. Grab what works for you.
I would want a shifter to be a chimeric mess.
Now, for actual features... maybe give them a cantrip to get some basic shape changes ("unsheathing" their claws, basically), and give more complex forms a focus requirement.
An example of a complicated subsystem with choice for the shifter:
At level 1 you can a one action morph ability to gain one feature from one of your chosen aspects. Every 4 levels the numbers of features you can choose increases by one.
At level 1 you gain 2 aspects from a list of choices. Every 2 levels you can choose another aspect to add to your list of known aspects.
That would be their main class feature(compare to rage/instinct or spells), they would also get standard proficiency increases and class feats.
I liked the were shifter options
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Shifters should not be topping damage per round charts. We don't need a massive amount of damage making it hard to justify what should be extremely high levels of versatility.
What I would love to see from a shifter includes:
1. Encouraged shifting. Not selecting a single form and staying in it for as long as possible.
2. Utility forms. A shifter shouldn't be forced to choose between either doing acceptably in combat OR being able to turn into a mouse or a bird for utility.
3. Fast shifting. Being able to shift during a charge is pretty key.
4. No anathema. These aren't really druids, although some could roleplay that way.
5. Good survivability. They should be able to take a hit, and recover from a hit.
Yeah, pretty much unlimited uses of Wild Shape out of the gate, but no spells or other druid-bits. Transform partially. Lots of individual uses, not necessarily (change 1 / day for X hours).
Variety. I want there to be mechanically sound reasons to go with a single bite attack *or* a pair of claw attacks, or something else entirely (scorpion stinger, battering wings, constricting coil?).
Utility options. I'd like there to be the ability to assume a form that can swim and breathe underwater, or a form that can fly, or a form that is tiny and good at stealth, or a form that can climb / walk on walls, or a form that can generate webbing, or a form with scent or low-light vision. Not just 'claws.' And having many (or even unlimited) uses per day would mean not giving up your combat utility in the next fight for this transient utility.
Having the ability, like in 1st edition AD&D, to use 'polymorph' to heal, by shifting away wounds after a transformation, could be cool. A limited use self-healing ability.
A version / Archetype of the class that can their transformative abilities on others, either afflicting enemies with shapeshifty debuffs, or augmenting allies with temporary transformations (everyone has wings for the next 10 minutes/hour/whatever! Fly my pretties!).
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I would want a shifter to be a chimeric mess.
I'm not sure about not being able to wildshape, but I do think chimeric things should be a big part of the class.
This was something I saw caught a lot of attention when the 1e shifter was announced, an advertising blurb talking about merging aspects to create a part-owl bear (not to be confused with an owl bear).
In practice it was kind of disappointing, because it actually just meant you were a bear with +4 to stealth checks, but the idea has a lot of appeal conceptually and 2e might be a chance to do it right.
I would want a shifter to be a chimeric mess.I'm not sure about not being able to wildshape, but I do think chimeric things should be a big part of the class.
This was something I saw caught a lot of attention when the 1e shifter was announced, an advertising blurb talking about merging aspects to create a part-owl bear (not to be confused with an owl bear).
In practice it was kind of disappointing, because it actually just meant you were a bear with +4 to stealth checks, but the idea has a lot of appeal conceptually and 2e might be a chance to do it right.
Of course, now that I think about it, the thing I suggested is another "so druid, but with less features". Because druids ALREADY have wild morph that does this. It does provide a beautiful mix of beast claws, insect jaws, vine whip arms, and flight...
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I'd like Shifter to be an archetype you could apply to any class.
Want a martial shifter? Go Barbarian or Fighter and take the archetype.
Want a stealthy shifter? Go rogue
Want a transmuter's transmuter like Disney's Merlin or Mad Mim? Go Wizard!
Sounds like Shifter multiclass dedication to me
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Sounds like Shifter multiclass dedication to me
The question is whether or not there's enough substance to the concept to justify it being its own class. Cavalier and vigilante have already gone down that route.
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Sounds like Shifter multiclass dedication to meThe question is whether or not there's enough substance to the concept to justify it being its own class. Cavalier and vigilante have already gone down that route.
There's as much substance as Paizo's willing to put in. I think anything could be its own class if they felt like it.
As for niche fulfilment. So far, Archetypes have been pretty good at coming up with ways to alter or supplement your core class, but for someone who wants to play a dedicated shapeshifter, a fighter with a couple feats worth of shapeshifting benefits is not enough to fulfill the concept and runs into the same problem fighter/wizard does at trying to replace the magus in not coming online for a long time.
There's as much substance as Paizo's willing to put in. I think anything could be its own class if they felt like it.
As for niche fulfilment. So far, Archetypes have been pretty good at coming up with ways to alter or supplement your core class, but for someone who wants to play a dedicated shapeshifter, a fighter with a couple feats worth of shapeshifting benefits is not enough to fulfill the concept and runs into the same problem fighter/wizard does at trying to replace the magus in not coming online for a long time.
I think any can be turned into its own class, but that doesn't mean it should be turned into its own class. There's a threshold of mechanics that need to be crossed to justify an entire class, which has, in the past, lead to some classes having a lot of mechanical bloat.
This is especially a concern in 2e where a class is required to not only have defining mechanics, but also a few dozen feats going from first level all the way to 20th. I think that most of what I've seen people waning out of the shifter could be achieved by an archetype that grants benefits similar to those granted by the wild druidic order.
Sounds like Shifter multiclass dedication to meThe question is whether or not there's enough substance to the concept to justify it being its own class. Cavalier and vigilante have already gone down that route.
My question is if the concept is narrow enough to be expressed in 3-6 feats spread out over 10-14 levels. A vigilante can; it is essentially the alternate identity and stuff you tack onto that. The Cavalier I'd argue was not faithfully transported if the final version greatly resembles the Playtest archetype. You get an Order that does nothing, a horse you could have gotten from 4 other archetypes, and a banner (and not even any of the cool banner abilities). Hopefully a lot of the mechanics they left on the floor will be picked up by Champions or another class (or they figured out how to cram in at least some of the old orders).
I think any can be turned into its own class, but that doesn't mean it should be turned into its own class. There's a threshold of mechanics that need to be crossed to justify an entire class, which has, in the past, lead to some classes having a lot of mechanical bloat.
This is especially a concern in 2e where a class is required to not only have defining mechanics, but also a few dozen feats going from first level all the way to 20th. I think that most of what I've seen people waning out of the shifter could be achieved by an archetype that grants benefits similar to those granted by the wild druidic order.
What would you say is the threshold?
My question is if the concept is narrow enough to be expressed in 3-6 feats spread out over 10-14 levels. A vigilante can; it is essentially the alternate identity and stuff you tack onto that. The Cavalier I'd argue was not faithfully transported if the final version greatly resembles the Playtest archetype. You get an Order that does nothing, a horse you could have gotten from 4 other archetypes, and a banner (and not even any of the cool banner abilities). Hopefully a lot of the mechanics they left on the floor will be picked up by Champions or another class (or they figured out how to cram in at least some of the old orders).
What would you say is the threshold?
The threshold is pretty much the opposite of your concern: is the concept broad enough to have anywhere between forty and sixty feats exploring it? I'm currently on the fence about whether or not the shifter concept has that much depth. It's possible that it does. But when I look at the wild druidic order and see about half of the functions of the shifter class already available, it does make me wonder.