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Just something I was musing if you have an adventurer fully geared appropriate to their level but out of their adventure would all those powerful items make them a target or would it make thieve's, etc avoid them out of fear or repurcussions? That is just generic city and someone geared and equipped for . . .
1) CR 2
2) CR 4
3) CR 8
4) CR 16
5) CR 20/Mythic Tier 10
arrived and was just going about their business (researching ancient history, watching a local festival or the like). Would all those items and equipment draw in thieves and evil adventurers hoping to steal them for themselves or would it cause them to steer clear hoping not to draw the attention of someone this powerful with presumably equally powerful allies?
The CR 20/Mythic Tier 10 adventurer is basically a god and will have extreme difficulty moving incognito. Just going about their business can't happen unless they're so disguised that the question is meaningless. Leave them out of the discussion.
I suspect the first thing any of the rest'd draw is hangers-on. Maybe not the level 2, that depends on how exactly they look. They're all seriously rich by normal-people standards.
Thieves are generally people with poor impulse control and/or a desperate need so yes any of those would draw thieves in a generic fantasy city with at least some crushing poverty. You might be able to deter most with a half-decent perception check and some sign of being aware of them.
The specialised, evil adventurer types would probably be able to figure out the CR16+ danger level and avoid them, but could target the others when/if they became aware of them.
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Fair enough.
I included the mythic one because this isn't really modern with fast communication in their home area sure people are going to go "oh wow that's X the Y." but say you were the mythic one in wrath of the righteous then went travelling to learn about the world and wound up in Osiria at the begining of mummy's mask do you really think you'd recognized or just viewed as "generic rich human/aasamir/elf/etc"? What if you were immortal long lived and wandered back into a city hundreds of years after the events you were involved in would people make that connection? I'm thinking Xena here in her area she was fairly well known but even there generic minions didn't necessarily recognize her on sight and when travelling to other lands they hadn't necessarily even have heard of her. Kevin Sorbo in one episode played Hercules playing Kevin Sorbo playing Hercules in the TV series because no one recognized him as the real demigod/god the myths were based on so long after the events had occured they weren't even considered real just legends and stories.
Probably a little bit of both. You don't see a lot of pickpockets trying to break into Fort Knox. At the same time braver/crazier/more talented criminals rob banks because that is where the money is.
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This is what I'm wondering lets set a few extra criteria for an example (not part of the question originally posted I'm not moving goal posts) and say we have a 6'4 warrior who's mythic tier 10, cr 20 and took the mythic ability that lets you change form. He decides to turn into a petite 5'3 woman and see if the party wizards complaints about how people treated her are genuine or just because she was a pretty unpleasant person. That is whether she got treated that way because she was an ahem heinous b!@@& or if she became one because of how she was treated. Would this new extremely powerful girl be better off walking around wearing her full equipment (armour, magic rings, magic belts, magic sword) or just generic warrior gear (armour and weapons but not magic items).
She's got no reputation as no one is going to recognize her but will she be more of a target if she's only wearing CR 1 appropriate gear or if she's wearing CR 20/MT10 gear.
My personal inclination is that she'll be at less of a risk. Because as AVR said most criminals are opportunists so they're not going to be turned away by expensive looking gear though they might be by someone who know's how to use what they have and even if they aren't we're talking a CR20 well built warrior with mythic powers taking on low CR threats. Whereas the more powerful and organized ones probably aren't going to bother with her as she has nothing worth stealing unless they feel a need to make an example out of the person who demolished a downtown tavern of their operation.
However this is a world of organized crime and people knowing powerful adventurers exist and are on par with superheroes (more x-men level than dc but still superheroes) so they might have learnt to recognize trouble too big to risk as a pure survival mechanism.
Hence my curiosity what others think.
Interesting thoughts and it puts me in mind of Slayers friendly but dopey acomponied by Lina who even dragons avoid because of her tendency to blow up cities.
At that level of wealth it might be easier to just ask for some gold. The risk is low, the reward is likely to be a normal week's work.
I think there are too many variables to consider. How do you as a potential thief/mugger eatimate the relative danger levels of:
a) A warrior wearing clearly magical armour and a glowing sword
b) An unarmoured scholarly type witha couple of nice rings (the rest of his wealth is in pearls, rods and other small items tucked into pockets)
c) A mundane looking fellow in shabby clothing with one well-made dagger (who has spent the rest of his WBL on hats of disguise, glamered armor and wrist sheaths to hide the realyl good weapons).
Without Detect Magic I suspect it may be difficult to spot quite how tooled-up a character rerally is.
Another thing to consider is that high level adventurers also tend to have high perception, sense motive and often intimidate. Often the high level adventurer is going to spot the person casing them and be able scare off the low level thieves with a glance. Most thieves are looking for easy marks not dangerous situations. Someone who spots you when you are approaching them and looks you straight in the eye will often cause the thief to look for easier prey.
It’s the low to mid-level characters that actually need to worry more about thieves. At that point they often have enough treasure to be tempting, but are not scary enough to be avoided. Once the characters are high enough to start attracting more than local notices for their adventures they don’t have much to worry about the local pickpocket. But at that point the higher level thieves will begin to target them. So the 12th level party does not need to worry so much about the local pickpocket, but the legendary cat burglar may decide they are actually worth the effort.
Without Detect Magic I suspect it may be difficult to spot quite how tooled-up a character rerally is.
That actually is going to be a bit more straightforward. People mostly wear clothing that matches at least a bit. Whatever the fantasy setting version of suit with tie or jeans with t-shirt is. And that goes out the window with magic items. You'll wear the purple with green polka dot cloak of resistance +4 because dying sucks, and not hesitate to put on the neon green ring of protection, etc. So if someone is wearing very expensive but garishly mismatched gear odds are they are powerful.
The thieves will presumably know which classes are Wisdom-based and/or have Perception and Sense Motive as class skills. Avoid anyone who looks like that. Fighters, sorcerers, summoners, witches and wizards are fair game. Paladins probably wouldn't have the skill points to spare so should be OK (and they'll be nice even if they do catch you. Which they won't, because heavy armour).
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Without Detect Magic I suspect it may be difficult to spot quite how tooled-up a character rerally is.That actually is going to be a bit more straightforward. People mostly wear clothing that matches at least a bit. Whatever the fantasy setting version of suit with tie or jeans with t-shirt is. And that goes out the window with magic items. You'll wear the purple with green polka dot cloak of resistance +4 because dying sucks, and not hesitate to put on the neon green ring of protection, etc. So if someone is wearing very expensive but garishly mismatched gear odds are they are powerful.
Dumbledore makes a lot more sense now.
So it seems like high level characters will scare of thieves in general because of the same theory in Kenichi where the visibly dangerous guy gets in fewer fights than the more powerful weak looking fellow. However if they do get into a fight then its more likely to be a group/organization either (a) powerful enough or desperate enough to take the risk or (b) a plot hook for their next adventure.
Makes sense to me.
The thieves will presumably know which classes are Wisdom-based and/or have Perception and Sense Motive as class skills. Avoid anyone who looks like that. Fighters, sorcerers, summoners, witches and wizards are fair game. Paladins probably wouldn't have the skill points to spare so should be OK (and they'll be nice even if they do catch you. Which they won't, because heavy armour).
I don't buy pretty much any part of that.
You might know that certain people are going to be harder to sneak up on than others okay. But anyone with a detect at-will spell you might not know why sometimes they know instantly something is up they do. Clerics are going to be such a grab bag of domain powers that it's probably just not worth it. Plus the hundreds of archtypes.
Dumbledore makes a lot more sense now.
I mean it at least explains his deterioration in fashionable clothing.
So it seems like high level characters will scare of thieves in general because of the same theory in Kenichi where the visibly dangerous guy gets in fewer fights than the more powerful weak looking fellow. However if they do get into a fight then its more likely to be a group/organization either (a) powerful enough or desperate enough to take the risk or (b) a plot hook for their next adventure.
Actually in the setting I think the thing that would make the most sense is to remember the scale.
If you're going to rob Warren Buffett you don't want to try to take ownership of Berkshire Hathaway. He's going to notice and he's going to do something about it. It might take him a minute to figure out that one of his personal accounts that was 8.9 million is now 7.9 million, and he's probably not going to dedicate all of his time to getting it back. Same way I didn't swear Vengeance when someone stole a comic that was worth $2.
So if I was going to rob an adventure I would go for like their Backup Plus one weapon, hopefully put in a similar Masterwork weapons so it takes him a couple days to notice.
Do people in game never have a change clothes, do they never clean them self, are they go to the Lord party dressed like to goin to war.
Thief Analyze first the target to check for opportunity
Thug appeal to strength to steal you so they don't use their brains.
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Well I try to have a range of suitable clothes but I have had to explain to players "No you're not going to be allowed to see the king wearing enough weapons to demolish a small town. They can't take away the wizards spells but they will take his staff and have court mages trained specifically in counterspelling nearby the whole time."
Do people in game never have a change clothes, do they never clean them self, are they go to the Lord party dressed like to goin to war.
Thief Analyze first the target to check for opportunity
Thug appeal to strength to steal you so they don't use their brains.
Since every time a PC takes off their War gear they get robbed or jumped why would they ever do that?
Also... what kind of games are folks running when every time a PC strips out of their gear they're attacked and nearly killed? I haven't played/run a lot of APs; is that a staple of Pathfinder? I run mostly homebrews and out of the 7 campaigns I've really gotten going in PF1 I can only name one with enough intrigue and darkness that PCs couldn't relax their guard ever.
If a player feels they NEED their character to walk around town, or into the noble's hall, or to a meeting with a friend up the road, or whatever, wearing every piece of armament and ordnance they own, maybe the game is a tad too scary?
Now on the other hand, I DO try to run games with at least a little bit of reality to them. By that I mean that my games aren't video games where the "skin" of the main character never changes; they level into their Godly Plate of the Whale armor and then come back from the dungeon wearing it... and for the next 2 days, wandering around town dealing with merchants they are just wearing Godly Plate of the Whale the entire time.
If PCs in my game don't take a Trait, Feat or Spell that lets them sleep in their armor... they're NOT sleeping in their armor. When they walk around a town with a lot of laws and a standing guard/military presence, they're not openly carrying glowing swords and brandishing acid-dripping crossbows. If they want a fair deal with local merchants, best not to float in on golden wings.
If nothing else, at least when it comes to PCs buying/selling things, just put it to the players in capitalist terms. If a merchant sees some uber-powered megalomaniac, dripping with money, levitating around the market, they MAY be tempted to raise their prices. On the other hand if a highly powerful PC shows up wearing sensible but stylish clothes they may be treated a bit more fairly.
It's a staple of bad running. It's what I call the you have to and then it's ridiculously hard Style. You have to take off your armor and weapons to talk to the king and then you get robbed. You have to go talk to this one random NPC and they happen to be the one and only person your PC ever got into an argument with. The basic game philosophy is if it can go wrong it already did and if it can't go wrong we're working on it. Nothing makes sense, nothing's ever easy. You often find it with the same people who fudge rules rules so every single fight is really difficult and slow and no fun and almost but not quite fatal.
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Not one I use they take off the armour to talk to the king and if they get attacked its more likely to be aimed at the king than them because you are in the ruler of the kingdoms HOME. He has a pile of guards both mundane and magical, he is (with a few exceptions) generally intelligent enough not to make a habit of trying to lure powerful adventurers into his house with the goal of killing them. This is probably the safest spot for the adventurers for the same reason they're being told to take off their armour and weapons. Its the same reason if you just casually kill a merchant hired to deliver a message (one group of mine dead) your going to get the guards after you and if you make a habit of it and are powerful enough the kingdoms are going to hire other powerful groups to hunt you down and kill you as rabid dogs.
In my games I try to create a realistic world there are thieves, monsters and concepts our world would find abhorrent but its a working world not an RPG with enemies spawning in to attack you randomly or every time you take your armour off.
Though I have been in games where I disagreed with how the GM handled it so I know they do exist. I remember one game where we were told via informants that a skilled assasin who liked to use poison was going to try and kill our party. My character was an elf so they only "rested" 2 hours a night, somehow the assasin picked that 2 hours to attack. My character was also told by the GM "No you wouldn't wear that necklace you picked up a while back that makes you immune to poison to bed because it might tangle on something while you sleep." Then "surprise" the assasin attacked . . .
First party member = charge in stab with poisoned weapon but made enough noise to alert the other 2 sleeping (in our home with guards who they slipped by).
Second party member = charge in stab with poisoned weapon, while I'm casting invsibility and positioning myself beside the door (I don't have time to put on the necklace apparently).
My turn = stop at doorway and start using gem of true seeing to examine the room.
Even other players after this session where muttering that the GM was railroading us because the assasin had acted completely differently in my room than the other two not counting the "you can't wear your necklace" and "your elf is asleep in just those 2 hours they happen to attack.
However yes some GM's do constantly attack the players with no downtime or in ways' that make no sense in a real world situation.
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I agree with you, but do low-level thieves know at what level a wizard can talk to her familiar? (What is the skill and DC required for this?)
sounds like my low level character needs to buy a pet mouse and talk to it incessantly in order to keep the thieves away......
Even when just talking in the King's court, weapons are bound with ribbons of Greater Peacebond... not taken away. The King, or illusion of the King, will have plenty of Eldritch Knights, Arcane Archers, and counterspell specialists on immediate standby to handle any funny business. The court knows what a disgrace it is to disarm a knight... GM's don't ever HAVE to take your gear simply because you enter a court or palace.
Magic is a deterrent. Even an experienced thief is going to follow the path of least resistance. The presence of magic items means that there are probably magical traps involved, and it's literally just easier (and safer) to steal something less attractive. Unless you're looking for an especially large payout, or one last score for retirement, you are better off avoiding it altogether.
Level is irrelevant, a PC will only get robbed if it serves the plot in some way, in which case the robber will be a level appropriate challenge.
except when they aren't. I've played games where the CR of monsters was determined by the area not the PCs. This was to represent how "controlled" the area was by the local kingdom. The closer you got to the capital the lower the CR of most threats were with the reasoning being that the local militia dealt with any major threats that popped up. The further away from the borders you got the more dangerous encounters became. Completely untamed territory was truly terrifying because you could run into really dangerous creatures.
Anyway, this meant that if you could have a band of CR 2 robbers attack you at low level. There was no reason that you wouldn't get attacked by a similar band of CR 2 robbers at high level (all other things being equal). One way to avoid such encounters was a simple show of force (IOW travelling with a bunch of heavily armed/armored troops). The robbers would still be there but if it was obvious they couldn't take you then they wouldn't bother. The other method was to just not travel by foot. Teleportation and flight were nice because it let you avoid random encounters completely. It also explained why bandits would be so comfortable attacking anyone that's travelling on foot.
I also adjust the CR of encounters based on their relative distance from the established kingdom(s), under the same logic that the local authorities will deal with a lot of things in their jurisdiction.
The party in my Kingmaker campaign even specifically tasked a unit of the military to keep the bulletin boards clear of posted threats and help wanted posters dealing with monsters. The kingdom's first knights, Sir Kesten Garess and Dame Xamanthe Silverfire, pal around touring the kingdom, making sure that the bulletin boards remain clear... it's always good to make your constituents feel like you are paying attention to their needs and security. But this is just an example/explanation of why there is nothing to kill within miles of a city wall.
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Level is irrelevant, a PC will only get robbed if it serves the plot in some way, in which case the robber will be a level appropriate challenge.except when they aren't...
I was being facetious. The OP's question is irrelevant to most players because they don't play the game in a way that the answer would matter. For most players, if their pcs were going to be robbed, it would be part of the story and happen regardless of how scary or vulnerable their characters look. Of course there are plenty of people who play in different styles. Maybe for their group it's all about the simulated experience of verisimilitude, where story and balance aren't important. There's no wrong way to play.
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Even when just talking in the King's court, weapons are bound with ribbons of Greater Peacebond... not taken away. The King, or illusion of the King, will have plenty of Eldritch Knights, Arcane Archers, and counterspell specialists on immediate standby to handle any funny business. The court knows what a disgrace it is to disarm a knight... GM's don't ever HAVE to take your gear simply because you enter a court or palace.
Magic is a deterrent. Even an experienced thief is going to follow the path of least resistance. The presence of magic items means that there are probably magical traps involved, and it's literally just easier (and safer) to steal something less attractive. Unless you're looking for an especially large payout, or one last score for retirement, you are better off avoiding it altogether.
Depends on the culture, kindgom e.g. in our world Japan you did surrender your katana when meeting with a lord, in fact they had may have a specific servant who's sole duty was to collect and care for these weapons while you were meeting with his master. I think they had a lot of rules regarding them actually both formal and informal down to how you wore them being an indication of rank.
Moving into fantasy ones it gets even murkier I've read books where they had a giant magnet mounted in the meeting room of various lords to ensure no one comes armed as they don't trust each other. Bring in a metal weapon and it gets pulled to the magnet, then demons attack and a bunch of them get killed. Others you aren't allowed to bear arms near the king unless your a man of proven loyalty and have permission. Still others you have a formal sword that is an ornate show of wealth but rarely much use as a weapon.
Still that's not really relevant to my question about whether an adventurer is going to be more of a target of regular thieves if they walk around with level appropriate gear or not.
I think the presence of magic items is a deterrent.
I think regular thieves will follow the path of least resistance.
I especially think that if an adventurer is walking around with proper leveled equipment, that your average thief will right stay away. And your experienced thieves are guaranteed to stay away (unless it is a GM designed thief involved in some dastardly plot to mess with the PC's gear).
Rogues don't get to see the sun rise on their next level if they make a habit of messing with PC's that sleep in their armor and can call their +1 greataxe named Mistress from anywhere on the same plane to chop you into bits with.
I agree with you, but do low-level thieves know at what level a wizard can talk to her familiar? (What is the skill and DC required for this?)sounds like my low level character needs to buy a pet mouse and talk to it incessantly in order to keep the thieves away......Many years ago, back in 2e D&D, I did this as a PC to the other players :)
I was a rogue 1/wizard 1 but never cast spells publicly. I wielded two daggers (did not dual-wield, one dagger was held just for show) and put green stuff on the daggers so they would appear to be poisoned (obviously, they weren't). I found out after the game ended that the other PCs were all terrified of my PC. :D
In a game I was in, another PC had a pet skunk. We were all powerful but all terrified of the skunk. A skunk familiar should give an extreme bonus to Intimidation to anything with a sense of smell, with said checks occurring without requiring an action on the part of the skunk holder, or even knowledge of someone observing them.
I don't know if a bonus to intimidate is the right term. Maybe a bonus to anything that's going to get you to go away.
I think the presence of magic items is a deterrent.
I think regular thieves will follow the path of least resistance.
I especially think that if an adventurer is walking around with proper leveled equipment, that your average thief will right stay away. And your experienced thieves are guaranteed to stay away (unless it is a GM designed thief involved in some dastardly plot to mess with the PC's gear).
Rogues don't get to see the sun rise on their next level if they make a habit of messing with PC's that sleep in their armor and can call their +1 greataxe named Mistress from anywhere on the same plane to chop you into bits with.
And I'm very strongly of the mindset that even if they do it's not going to be oh I took the item that's 40% of your wealth, it's going to be I could have swore that I had 83 platinum and now I have 79.
I've seen this play out both ways in various different stories...
Honestly, there is not hardset rule for which would garner more or less attention from thieves...
In one story I saw a situation where a high ranking captain of the guard would refuse to wear any equipment that would set them apart from the average beginner adventurer because wearing such low quality gear made him seem like a less threatening target to thieves, resulting in being able to catch more thieves.
In another story, a similarly dressed guard captain claimed the exact opposite, that wearing the more decorated armor that displays his status makes him a bigger target to thieves and brigands. And further backed up his stance by pointing out that the crowds such attire draws makes it easier for thieves to go unnoticed as well.
In a few other stories, adventurers with visibly valuable gear would attract the attention of thieves, but would never be directly attacked or pickpocketed, rather instead they would be stalked and robbed when they arn't in direct possession of their valuables. (usually in their sleep or while in the bath)
No one can ever really agree as to which makes you attract more or less attention from thieves...
In the movie Snatch, Vinny has a little chat with Bullet Tooth Tony that kind of sums this up in my mind.
Bullet Tooth Tony :
"...you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with you. And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your guns... And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle .5O"...
Written on the side of mine... Should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence."
Regardless of how ridiculous all that powerful gear may look when worn together, the overall effect is formidable. Clowns can be scary if they have the right posture/body language, aggression/violence of action. You put on your armor, your helmet, you close your visor to obscure your eyes from public view, and you carry a big, shiny AF weapon that is better cared for than the mayor's estate... beggars don't even ask for a copper before they clear the way. The old men chase away the children and beat them with their canes if they approach you.
You are noticed. And you are feared by most everyone not equally equipped.
Or at least that was my experience when I put on my armor, my helmet, my sunglasses, and carried a SAW. A patrol my friend was on was greeted by a goat farmer in the middle of the desert who thought that they were freaking SPACE PEOPLE! The equipment was so foreign to the goat farmer, he thought they were literally from space.
That's how adventurers look to everyone else.
Any party rogues care to weigh in on what they'd find a more tempting target?
Well.... my last rogue pick-pocketed an arch-mage at level 4 because she thought he was just a random old man with a gambling addiction... so...
Imagine an undeveloped rural community of a couple hundred people. There is certainly a thief among them. That thief steals apples and the occasional tool. The thief is acting alone, out of selfishness. There is no method for the thief to make a profit from what he steals. Hey, that's Jim's missing kunai, he's been looking for that.
Now a settlement of a thousand people. Probably a few small rackets of thieves. Probably the beginnings of a fencing network (equivalent to a shady pawn shop), and a relatively reliable way to turn a profit from your stolen goods. These hooligans are stealing food for fun, tools and weapons that won't be too noticeable or obvious. But, there's still no point in stealing something that you can't sell here.
The metropolis with a few thousand people, or more, is the only place that thieves will be able to fence expensive stolen goods. And such a crowded metropolis probably gives most adventurers the creeps. We are all perfectly fine still writing in the diary before sleeping with a teddy bear in the bog, or the cave, the crypt.
But you put an adventurer in the city, it's straight to business, what's the shortest route to the magic store? Buddy system, splitting the team is for rookies, tie down your gear, put it all in a portable hole, and then stick it in nature’s pocket. Perception checks every time my left foot hits the ground.
A thief is always making a risk vs. reward decision. Unless they have clues that somebody is over- or under- equipped for their level, both the risk and the reward of stealing from somebody go up as the gear gets fancier and more expensive.
And it has been my experience that thieves who attack player characters generally get this decision wrong, for obvious reasons.
It also depends on the type of thief you're talking about. The last rogue types I've played that actively stole things never did so out of necessity they did so because they could. When in town my character would mingle with crowds and pickpocket people randomly. I had no idea who I was stealing from, much less how they were dressed. The only deterrent was if someone seemed alert enough to catch me in the act. A watchful eye was far scarier than a glowing sword. My backup plan (if someone shouted for guards or whatnot) was to cast sanctuary on myself and hope that whoever tried to stop me couldn't make the save.
When it comes to pickpockets how threatening looking you are doesn't matter as much as how observant you seem to be. When it comes to banditry though it doesn't matter how observant someone is as much as how much of a fight they are likely to put up.
So, a knight in full plate might not get harassed by bandits but could be a tempting target for a pickpocket. While the creepy old man with a stern gaze would have the opposite problem.