Why is Cheliax racist against tieflings?

[Yqatuba]

Considering Asmodeus is the official state religion, I would think at least devil-born tieflings would be revered, rather than hated. What's the deal?

[Rysky]

Asmodeus being the state religion doesn’t mean they love fiends/devils/teiflings.

The last I read it’s because the saw Tieflings as a sign of weakness, a mortal falling under the sway of a fiend.

[Ridge]

Been a while since I read Cheliax related source material, but I think it may have something to do with how it shows a failure of will on behalf of which ever Chelaxian human helped bring it about. Cheliax, at least it's aristocracy, seems to like to fool itself into thinking IT has the upperhand, that the devils serve Cheliax, and not Cheliax the Devils. Tieflings might be seen as living symbols that devils and their influence remains even when the conjuring is done. And Cheliaxans, don't, I think, like a reminder that maybe, just maybe, they're not in control.

Edit: What Rysky said

[PossibleCabbage]

It's because Cheliax believes that their infernal pact should be interpreted as "Hell serves Cheliax" so when you stoop to have a child with a fiend, that's lessening yourself. Asmodeus permits Cheliax to believe all sorts of things that are untrue but serve Asmodeus.

[Perpdepog]

Also worth noting is that those Chelaxians are, well, wrong. We've got multiple articles that stress planar scions don't always, or even often, come from the metaphorical or physical union of an outsider and a mortal. A lot of the time they are a result of things like being born next to a place aligned with that outsider's plane, for example, or being born where a powerful outsider died.

I'd guess that this information is genuinely lost on a lot of Chelaxians, but a fair number of the better-studied clergy and arcanists are almost certainly aware of it, but either assume it doesn't apply to them and theirs because of good old fashioned doublethink or keep mum about the information so it can be used as a tool of propaganda and oppression.

[The Raven Black]

Mixing of blood is usually not a thing Lawful Evil societies appreciate.

[Lathiira]

Hell is the perfect society. Perfect order. To the Chelish at least. That makes devils analogues to angels. You don't sleep with angels, that's some form of sacrilege/heresy/blasphemy/taboo/big no-no. Let alone have kids by them. Even though tieflings are a far cry from nephilim, you just don't do it.

So to mitigate this, and not to mention not make their outsider idols upset, tieflings are subjugated as second-class citizens.

[YourNewShoe]

Perpdepog wrote:

I'd guess that this information is genuinely lost on a lot of Chelaxians, but a fair number of the better-studied clergy and arcanists are almost certainly aware of it, but either assume it doesn't apply to them and theirs because of good old fashioned doublethink or keep mum about the information so it can be used as a tool of propaganda and oppression.

I don't think there really needs to be an explanation for why the information doesn't just disseminate and remove racism.

Look at our world. With the greatest level of access to information and education that has ever been achieved by humanity, there are still massive amounts of completely wrong "common knowledge" floating about. There are still many, many things that only relative experts know, and many fields where the 'lies to children' of simplified explanations create broad groups of people who think they know more than they do.

If we, with all our advantages, can't manage to dispel many of the myths that still hold in our society - things we just flat-out know are nonsense - then I don't see it as in any way odd that a tiny elite who are largely isolated from the majority of the population (how many well-educated nobles, clergymen, arcanists, etc. do you think the average farmer meets?) would be unable to dispel similar myths in their own society. Even if they did know, and want to spread the truth...would any of them care to start that upmountain battle?

[UnArcaneElection]

^ . . . Especially when their paychecks depend upon them not starting that upmountain battle.

[Tender Tendrils]

Yeah, you don't need the experts to remain silent on what they know or any kind of conspiracy for society to remain ignorant of the facts. The experts can scream it from the rooftops and wave graphs and 5,000 page reports summarizing decades of research in your face and many people still won't believe them.

[The Raven Black]

Indeed there was a belief that increased education and information would lead to better people and a better working society.

Sadly, internet disproved it.

[Tender Tendrils]

Eh, I think that it generally has made things better, we are just more aware of the bad stuff because we have access to, well everyone and everything now, and we have higher standards than people used to have.
My point wasn't information=bad, just that people who want to stay ignorant won't be cured by access to information.

For those of us who actually want to learn, having access to experts and the internet is fantastic. Heck, I wouldn't even have had the language to describe my identities as a trans and asexual person without the internet, because school and libraries and the media generally didn't talk about trans people except as a punchline to gross jokes, and still don't seem to be aware that asexuals are even a thing.

(I've still literally only seen one piece of non-internet media where a person was explicitly described as asexual, which is Bojack Horseman - I had to find out that there was a word for my sexuality other than "frigid" or "repressed" or "broken" from Tumblr).

Cheliax would absolutely get a net-benefit from having the internet, it just wouldn't necessarily eliminate racism against tieflings entirely. Tieflings would gain online communities where they can talk about what they are going through with each other, and non-tieflings would be able to actually read stuff written by an actual tiefling instead of all of their information coming from other humans (just many of them would choose to disregard it, but at least it would be there for those of them with open minds).

[The Raven Black]

I do not see a Lawful Evil society like Cheliax giving its citizens access to internet without having total control on the available content.

[Ridge]

The Raven Black wrote:

I do not see a Lawful Evil society like Cheliax giving its citizens access to internet without having total control on the available content.

"It must be true, I saw it on Faustbook" :)

[The Raven Black]

Mind you, helping the masses value vague posts on social networks over the word of recognized authorities / experts is something any Lawful society will dislike, including Lawful Evil ones.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

The Raven Black wrote:

Mind you, helping the masses value vague posts on social networks over the word of recognized authorities / experts is something any Lawful society will dislike, including Lawful Evil ones.

Yeah, Lawful Good has a really intense, nuanced, moderation style. It works, but it takes a lot of energy.

I find it all too plausible that Cheliax is racist against tieflings, because considering "mostly like the approved outcome but Not Quite, in ways that can be considered a moral failing or a betrayal" worse than "entirely the Other" is something I have seen in cases of RL bigotry.

[Temperans]

The Raven Black wrote:

I do not see a Lawful Evil society like Cheliax giving its citizens access to internet without having total control on the available content.

Considering how Cheliax actively rewrites history books and tries to burn all the old copies.

They would 100% make it their mission to manipulate everyone into only believing the Cheliax internet pages. Everything else from that perspective would be seen as enemy propaganda by the people.

[UnArcaneElection]

Ridge wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I do not see a Lawful Evil society like Cheliax giving its citizens access to internet without having total control on the available content.

"It must be true, I saw it on Faustbook" :)

Okay, this MUST be a thing Cheliax does when it gets to the electronic age.

[Mavrickindigo]

Yqatuba wrote:

Considering Asmodeus is the official state religion, I would think at least devil-born tieflings would be revered, rather than hated. What's the deal?

Cheliax thinks they are ABOVE devils. They worship Asmodeus thinking they are getting the better deal out of the contract. Devils are beneath Chelaxians, and so devil-born are beneath humans.

[UnArcaneElection]

RandyJewett wrote:

{. . .} Despite Asmodeus being the official state religion, it is essential to note that even within a theocracy, discrimination and prejudice can still exist and that the fight for justice and equality must be continuous. {. . .}

ESPECIALLY within a theocracy, discrimination and prejudice can still exist. And you can be sure Asmodeus is not fighting for justice and equality . . . I say, you must not be from Golarion . . . .