It's basically that way because the actual ability score would never really matter for monsters, so they just left the modifier.
Overall I like the change, keeps stat blocks less cluttered. Honestly part of me wishes the same was true of player characters, we never use our actual score either.
we never use our actual score either.
More and more during character creation I find myself constructing the bonus array I want, and then figure out what backgrounds would make that work most easily.
Making the background fit into the character backstory is a lot of fun and gives me fuller backstories than I've had in the past.
Thanks for the response
I realize that that actually scores are rarely used
BUT....
I can (if I chose) make a difference between ability score of 14 or 15
(or 16, 17 etc)
However
When listing ONLY the bonus
+2 +3
then there is NO difference between 14-15
If you're making a monster, yes.
In PF2, the system for creating ability scores is limited to even numbers between 8 and 18. At first level, you can't have an ability below 8 or above 18.When raising ability scores at later levels, you can move to 19 , and then 20. There is no other way to create an odd ability score.
However, (again for characters, not monsters) the Game Mastery Guide has alternative ways that include making some scores odd numbers, but it still doesn't change the modifiers.
Thanks for the response
I realize that that actually scores are rarely used
BUT....
I can (if I chose) make a difference between ability score of 14 or 15
(or 16, 17 etc)
However
When listing ONLY the bonus
+2 +3
then there is NO difference between 14-15
But why would you? In what situation would it matter? They are the same, except for when leveling a PC.
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if we have a str check that results in a tie
That doesn't happen any more.
Your ST checks are always against a DC, not against another characters ability score.
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There are three reasons to still have ability scores:
#1. They are relevant to how PCs advance scores. PCs can and do wind up with odd scores. It's basically just a marker of how close they are to the next even score, but that matters.
#2. The legacy reason. People like saying they have a Str of 18 and are, as you say, used to the 3-18 scale.
#3. There are rules for rolling stats, those work a lot better and more easily with the current range of stats.
Of those, #1 and #3 are only relevant to PCs, and even #2 only matters if the GM personally cares, so it's a much less compelling argument for NPCs than it is for PCs.
The way this plays out is ability scores are REALLY nothing more than
-4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4
For first level character, you cannot start with an ability score lower than 8 or higher than 18. Modifiers can only be -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, and +4.
If you look at the official PF2 Character Sheet, you'll notice that the column on the left of the Ability Score section is the modifier, not the score. The score is over on the right. Really emphasizes that what matters in play is the modifier
I do miss the old scores, but the ship has sailed, oh well.
If I got to mix and match the rules, I'd have made both sides use modified raw scores; +0 for no ability (the most important; -5 as minimal ability is just too arbitrary and ""WHY?" for my worldview), +5 for human average scores, DC 15 as the baseline, and so on.
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So yes, if I ever actually play 2nd edition I would use some type of modified system of creating ability scores
For PCs, rolling for stats does this all on its own. Or you could hand out three meaningless +1s to every character. Either works, and while I personally hate rolled stats it does help with that 'old school' feel if that's what you're aiming for.
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Nothing made me more annoyed in 1E than odd numbered stats in monster stat blocks. It was just a waste of a stat point
Given how strong my PCs were I pretty much always bumped any odd number up by one to the next modifier
So I am glad it is gone.
Also monster modifiers don’t directly translate to their abilities anymore . Very rarely is there damage simply a damage dice + strength or their attacks rolls their proficiency + strength or dex
Other than to give an idea of the general feel of the monster they aren’t even really needed
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Also monster modifiers don’t directly translate to their abilities anymore . Very rarely is there damage simply a damage dice + strength or their attacks rolls their proficiency + strength or dex
This is only mostly true. Monsters often have bonuses on top of Str to damage, it's true, but so do PCs and the bonuses are often about equivalent, and monsters always tend to have at least their str Mod in damage, so it's indicative if not defining. Attack bonus is, admittedly, completely unrelated.
Other than to give an idea of the general feel of the monster they aren’t even really needed
This, however, is just not true. They're used for any Untrained Skills, which is inevitably most of the Skill list for most monsters. This admittedly makes Con specifically mostly a thematic note, but the others are quite relevant, though admittedly only used occasionally.
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Yep, you sometimes need to know the Atheltics or Stealth of a monster despite it not being listed on the statblock - rarely, but still.
Also, the variance for sake of variance itself has no value - there's nothing you're gaining from introducing odd scores, if you want to complicate things just to have that warm fuzzy feeling of seeing somebody have Cha 13, trust me, it's not worth it.
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Player-character still follow the same methodology as always. They have ability scores which generate modifiers. You can follow the same system for NPCs if you want, though unless they are important, reoccurring characters, there is really no reason to go to that level of detail. 2E stat blocks are supposed to be streamlined and only list the absolute necessary stats to use them in a game. If some random ogre appears that is intended to be slain by the PCs, whether it has a strength of 20 or 21 is meaningless. That they have a +5 Str modifier is important.
If you are OCD, you can certainly deconstruct stat blocks to generate the base ability scores, but one thing you are going to discover right away is that not all stats in the block can be easily disassembled. There are often unforseen +/- affecting the number. They designed the 2E monster generation system such that you don't have to be able to justify every single aspect of the block. If you feel your monster needs to have sneak attack or sudden charge or whatever else, you can just give it to it without having to figure out how it got that ability like we did using the very restrictive 1E rules.
I love the creative freedom I have in 2E for monster generation and modification. I don't always gauge CR correctly, but at least they can do what I want/need them to do.
Also monster modifiers don’t directly translate to their abilities anymore . Very rarely is there damage simply a damage dice + strength or their attacks rolls their proficiency + strength or dexThis is only mostly true. Monsters often have bonuses on top of Str to damage, it's true, but so do PCs and the bonuses are often about equivalent, and monsters always tend to have at least their str Mod in damage, so it's indicative if not defining. Attack bonus is, admittedly, completely unrelated.
Other than to give an idea of the general feel of the monster they aren’t even really neededThis, however, is just not true. They're used for any Untrained Skills, which is inevitably most of the Skill list for most monsters. This admittedly makes Con specifically mostly a thematic note, but the others are quite relevant, though admittedly only used occasionally.
I hadn’t spotted that untrained part because it has yet to come up. Will keep an eye out now! Thanks
It does absolutely nothing mechanically. Youd be messing with a system just for the aesthetics of having an odd number, even though that odd number would do nothing.
The Game Mastery Guide has a couple ways manage ability scores that make the odd scores more than "aesthetics".
Another possibility
Or Give Character 2 a +1 ring of INT (of any ability score) and it will effect his Modifier. Give the same +1 ring to Character 1 and it does not change his modifier.
So based on above 14 VS 15 DOES matter
In PF2, there are no items that add +1 to an ability score.
All +X items add that amount to the die roll when calculating success and failure. Not to the modifier, not to the ability. To the calculation for success/failure.
So even if you an ability score that was an odd number, there aren't any items in PF2 where having a +14 or a +15 Ability Score makes a difference (other than the fact that a +14 gives you a +2 modifier, and a +15 ALREADY gives you a +3 modifier)
Another possibility
Or Give Character 2 a +1 ring of INT (of any ability score) and it will effect his Modifier. Give the same +1 ring to Character 1 and it does not change his modifier.
So based on above 14 VS 15 DOES matter
Thanks all for the feedback
It is actually helping me develop my "philosophy" of gaming and character creation.
Those types of items no longer exist. Only Apex Items directly impact Ability Scores, and they all increase an Ability Score either by 2, or directly to 18, so even then, odd scores are exactly the same as even scores.
Direct comparisons of ability scores and opposed roles also no longer exist, so there is no instance where you would ever compare ability scores.
Mechanically, odd scores are exactly the same as even scores in all scenarios except level 5,10,15, and 20 ASIs.
Obviously if you want to homebrew it for the pleasure of seeing different numbers, more power to you, everyone enjoys different things.
It just seems like a lot of work for something that has no impact on the game.
Another possibility
Or Give Character 2 a +1 ring of INT (of any ability score) and it will effect his Modifier. Give the same +1 ring to Character 1 and it does not change his modifier.
So based on above 14 VS 15 DOES matterIn PF2, there are no items that add +1 to an ability score.
All +X items add that amount to the die roll when calculating success and failure. Not to the modifier, not to the ability. To the calculation for success/failure.
So even if you an ability score that was an odd number, there aren't any items in PF2 where having a +14 or a +15 Ability Score makes a difference (other than the fact that a +14 gives you a +2 modifier, and a +15 ALREADY gives you a +3 modifier)
This response is actually a great example of the reason not to include odd Ability Scores. They are confusing.
14 and 15 both give a +2 Modifier, but it's hard for people to remember what number the Modifiers roll over on.
Thanks for the responses again
PF2
has not items that add +1 to ability scoresBut I could easily create my own item
Very simpleYou find a magic ring of +1 STR
Surely PF2 allows GM to do that
That's true, but it would not be recommended. Those Items would be dramatically more powerful than existing Items, and would throw off the underlying math of the game, creating lots of imbalance.
I mean this in a positive way, I have found actually reading through sections of the book to be really helpful. A lot of times the way it is laid out in the book helps understanding. Where as just jump around may not get you there, or could be more confusing.
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Legacy: Yes I am old-school and like seeing 18 in ability score
But ............ I also like more flexibilityA couple more points to further this discussion
Ability scores (at 1st level) are
8,10,12,14,16, 18That means there are 6 levels of STR (or INT, or Wis, etc) for all characters. ALL (1st level) characters "Fit" into 6 different levels of STR.
That is not very realistic, and I realize that I am arguing about the realism of a fantasy game.
Point 2
Character 1
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 14Character 2
STR 15
DEX 15
CON 15
INT 15
WIS 15
CHA 15Are these Characters the same?
According to 2nd edition these two characters are exactly the same.
I’m confused by this point. PF2 isn’t establishing a changed Ability Modifier. 3.0/3.5/PF1 ability scores generate the exact same modifiers. So there hasn’t been a numeric distinction to the Ability modifier for 14 Strength and a 15 Strength since the launch of 3rd Edition D&D 20 years ago.
The instances of needing a raw ability score for something were few and far between before. PF2 makes the it even less necessary, but the original conversation was about Monster Star Blocks which in no way needs raw ability scores.
Yeah, in PF2, with Ability reducing stuff replaced with Conditions and monsters/NPCs no longer increasing Ability scores the same way as PCs, their actual score just doesn't matter mechanically in any way, only the bonus does.
I remember that there was one exception where it still mattered, but I don't recall what it was.
It seems this thread is pointing out my lack of PF2 knowledge
As stated I am just looking into PF2 (slow to get to it)
BUT
this discussion is driving me AWAY from PF2
I would repeat what others have said: Play the game by the Rules As Written first. Once you have a feel for the gameplay, you'll know exactly how you want to tweak it and how you don't. Maybe you'll still want odd numbers (which you can get for PCs by using the Alternate Method sidebar), and maybe you'll find you don't miss it. But tweaking the rules before you've played them is like adding salt before you've tasted your food.
If you're happy with the game you're playing, that's great too. Keep playing it, and have fun. You're under no obligation to try something else if you love what you have.
At first I disliked the Second Edition style stat block because it lacks the ability scores. But now I really like it. I even wish Paizo to remove the ability scores entirely in Third Edition. But there is one thing that really annoys me: if the ability score to which you’re applying an ability boost is already 18 or higher, its value increases by only 1. Why should there be this rule in the first place? I honestly cannot understand. I really wish this particular rule to be deleted in Third Edition.
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At first I disliked the Second Edition style stat block because it lacks the ability scores. But now I really like it. I even wish Paizo to remove the ability scores entirely in Third Edition. But there is one thing that really annoys me: if the ability score to which you’re applying an ability boost is already 18 or higher, its value increases by only 1. Why should there be this rule in the first place? I honestly cannot understand. I really wish this particular rule to be deleted in Third Edition.
There's a very real and, upon reflection IMO, very good reason for this: It encourages stat diversification and keeps the range from low stat to high stat manageable.
If you could just pile bonuses linearly, almost all characters would wind up with a greater gap between their highest and lowest stats, and nobody would ever spread their stats around between secondary stats (or would be mechanically penalized if they did).
Really, as much as this kind of annoyed me too at first, I think it results in characters working a lot better in important ways.
Sigh. It seems that we cannot remove the ability scores from the game entirely because there should be a way to represent the ability score 19. We cannot say like the PC has the ability modifier +4.5 because it would confuse the players, right?
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Sigh. It seems that we cannot remove the ability scores from the game entirely because there should be a way to represent the ability score 19. We cannot say like the PC has the ability modifier +4.5 because it would confuse the players, right?
That's a detail for sake of detail, and it doesn't add anything to the game.
I'm glad ability scores are still around for several reasons, at least for PCs. Monsters really don't need them.
1. Legacy. Fully psychological, but important for me anyway.
2. Roleplay cues. Who pulls the cart? The 19 str guy has a number that says he's stronger than the 18 str guy, so the players assign the task to the 19 str guy. No real mechanical difference, but it's a neat cue for adjusting in-play attitudes.
3. Future rules elements. You can conceive of rules that care about actual scores, like Starfinder's odd ability score feat requirements. Maybe they could add elements that make those odd numbers above 18 feel more useful.
4. Familiar scale. Rolling a 20 is fantastic. Rolling a 1 is terrible. Seeing your ability scores in that scale, and exceptionally beyond it, gives me the warm and fuzzies.
5. Rolling. Sometimes I like to play a game where rolling makes sense. Often, that's for that old-school feeling. Since ability scores still exist, I get to relive the good old 4d6 drop lowest days.
If they got rid of ability scores altogether I wouldn't cry into my pillow,though.
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PF2 has not items that add +1 to ability scoresTo be clear PF1 did not either. In PF1 (and 3.5 and 3.0 before it), all stat boosters were even numbers. And before that in AD&D stat boosters set you ability score to a fixed value.
Obviously, as a GM you could make such an item in any of those systems. But personally I would not.
_
glass.
While generally correct, that's not entirely true, at least not in D&D. Various Manuals could grant odd number bonuses.
(Gainful Exercise, Bodily Health, etc...)
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(and Wishes...)
The reasons because ability scores are:
- Paizo thought, with reason, that the classic six ability scores with values that (at level 1) go up to 18 are one of the things that make the game identifiable as an iteration of D&D. Like hit points and character classes. Some of them still make sense, but others are just sacred cows - what does the name 'armor class' really mean nowadays?
- Many players still like to roll their characters' stats, so keeping them more or less in the classic range gives them an option to do that easily.
- Having cluttered advancement past a +4 bonus is mechanically important, and calling the stat 19 instead of having a +4.5 bonus is more elegant.
In your example, DeathBecomesus, the character with all 15s is in a better place than the one with all 14s. When they boost their ability scores they will have a different progression:
14 -> 16 -> 18 -> 19 -> 20
15 -> 17 -> 19 -> 20.
Starting with a 15 saves the character one boost, which can go to a different stat.