The rules for acrobatics say that "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round."
Maybe I'm forgetting something obvious, but I don't know what it is talking about. Maybe it is paraphrasing how far your character can run with a full-round action, but I can't find the specific phrase "maximum movement for the round" referenced anywhere else.
Normally jumping is made as part of another move action.
I take this restriction to mean that you can't jump farther than whatever action(s) you might use to jump.
You can double move, you can run. There are options that might enhance your movement. But whatever type of movement you might make, that's the limit to your jump.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, you can definitely jump further than a single move action would require (in my interpretation) based on the limit of your movement in the round.
So if you intend to use two moves action in the round, you could jump a distance up to twice your movement speed. If you will run only, and make a jump in the middle you could jump up to x4 (or x3 if wearing heavy armor) your movement speed.
The difference here is that running requires you to move in a straight line only.
Generally you're acrobatics modifier is going to be the limitation to how far you can jump rather than your movement speed.
For most characters, dong something like even a 60ft jump would be a DC 60, and unless you're really trying to build for jumping you're unlikely to be able to make such a DC.
And if you are, you've also probably found ways to increase your movement speed anyways.
From a practical standpoint I think it's unlikely that a character will have a high enough acrobatics bonus that their movement speed (when moving twice) would be the problem.
As I understand it and rule it in my own games, I follow the interpretation Claxy is making here. You add a Jump action to whatever Move you're taking. If you spend 10' to get a running start but your normal movement is 30' in that Move action, you can't jump more than 30'. As I understand the intent, you shouldn't be able to jump FARTHER than your normal Move action would take you.
So, if I have a 30' move speed, and I spend a standard action to attack/cast a spell/something other than move. Then take a move action to move 10', then jump and get a 30 on my roll you'd allow me to move an additional 30' (all airborne as part of my jump)? For a total of 40' of movement? I don't think that is what you meant, I just want to clarify it - because that is what the words look like you are saying in one sentance, but then your last sentance seems to contradict that.
The rule isn't that you can't jump more than a certain distance. The rules is that "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round." So in the above example the limit of your distance traveled this round during the jump is 20' (30' - the 10' of movement you used prior to jumping). There are varying opinions on what happens if you roll a 30 but don't have enough movement left in the round to move that far. Me personally, I end the players turn there, mid jump, and the start of their next turn is a forced move action to complete whatever additional distance their jump roll gives them.
Others, like Claxon, believe you just can't make a 30' jump if you don't have 30' of movement available left to you in the round, and that you must make the jump on your following turn. I don't care for this interpretation, because for me, it places arbitrary mechanics tied to the position on the grid an the thing you want to jump over over importance of character actions. As another example, if I double move on turn 1. Then jump as the first thing I do on turn 2, did I have a running start? If my turns are discreet actions, then no, I do not have a running start. If they are not discreet actions, then why am I artificially limited on how far I can jump based on whether I jumped near the end of my movement as opposed to near the beginning?
As to the OP's question, your maximum movement for the round is based entirely on the actions you took that granted you movement.
1 move action = your base speed (usually 30')
2 move actions = 2x your base speed
Run action = 3/4/5 (with runner feat) base speed.
It is kind of a sticky wicket, but I've always treated each turn as discrete.
If you didn't move this turn, you don't have the running start for the jump.
But it seems we generally agree that your maximum movement is dependent on the actions you take in a round.
I guess the real question is whether or not jumping across multiple turns make sense.
To that end, I'm half recalling some sort of rule in this area that was basically to the effect of "if you're not on the ground at the end of your turn you fall", but I can't recall what it is.
I think maybe it's Windwalk spell, which maybe does or doesn't provide a framework since it's a spell. But if a spell that let's you walk on air has you fall at the end of your turn if your not on the ground, I feel like you also should fall out of the air from a jump.
Edit: It's not Windwalk, but now I'm not sure what it was. It was something that let you walk on air, but at the end of your turn you fell if you weren't on the ground.
Your land speed, adjusted for encumbrance.
Horizontal jump DC is equal to the distance to be traveled.
Vertical jump DC is equal to 4x the distance to be traveled.
DC's are doubled if you don't have at least 10' for a running start.
Let's say you have:
a 30' land speed,
a 20 Dex,
Acrobatics as a class skill,
10 ranks in Acrobatics...
The gap is 20'... 20' of open air ledge to ledge. DC 20
You roll a 20, for a total of 38.
Without a running start, the DC is 40, and you jump 19'. You would receive a Reflex save to grab the other side, since you failed by less than 5.
With a 10' running start, you jump 20'... because it's the only movement you have left?
Is that correct? They say that the result of your Acrobatics check is the distance you travel with a running long jump, however they also say you need at least 10' for the running start... obviously this 10' is NOT part of the distance "jumped".
When they say running jump, do they mean running like 4x your land speed running? 5x, if you have the Run feat? If so, jumping just became a whole lot easier...
30' land speed, running at 4x, is 120'... minus the 10' for the running start... leaves you 110' to jump if you can make the Acrobatics check. Seems ridiculous, but it's a freaking fantasy game with magic and dragons, so it very well could be set up this way.
It is kind of a sticky wicket, but I've always treated each turn as discrete.
If you didn't move this turn, you don't have the running start for the jump.
But it seems we generally agree that your maximum movement is dependent on the actions you take in a round.
I guess the real question is whether or not jumping across multiple turns make sense.
To that end, I'm half recalling some sort of rule in this area that was basically to the effect of "if you're not on the ground at the end of your turn you fall", but I can't recall what it is.
I think maybe it's Windwalk spell, which maybe does or doesn't provide a framework since it's a spell. But if a spell that let's you walk on air has you fall at the end of your turn if your not on the ground, I feel like you also should fall out of the air from a jump.
Edit: It's not Windwalk, but now I'm not sure what it was. It was something that let you walk on air, but at the end of your turn you fell if you weren't on the ground.
I thought maybe the ninja Light Steps ability was what you were thinking of, but that doesn't allow walking on air, and forbids the movement if you don't end the turn on solid ground. I thought maybe there was an upgraded version of light steps as a ninja trick, but I'm not seeing one.
If you do recall a reference for it I'd love to see it.
There was a recent discussion about Bladed Dash that talked about going upwards and ending the movement in the air.
Wind Jump (Su): A monk with this ki power can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a move action to grant himself a fly speed (with perfect maneuverability) equal to his base land speed. He must end his movement each round on solid ground (or some other surface that can support his weight) or fall as normal...
The limitation on jumping is there to keep monks and similar characters from using Acrobatics to move further than their base speed would allow.
A monk can easily be rocking around +50 at lvl5, giving them an average jump distance that's higher than their normal speed.
Quixote I think that ability is what I was thinking of.
Wait, a Monk's Fast Movement does, or does not, affect how far they can jump?
The limitation on jumping is there to keep monks and similar characters from using Acrobatics to move further than their base speed would allow.
And ending a characters turn mid-jump does that without any problems :).
Thanks for the info though, I'll pull up full ability to read over later and consider more closely, but my initial thought is that flying around is a different thing than jumping.
Wait, a Monk's Fast Movement does, or does not, affect how far they can jump?
If the GM is running by the 'you can't split a jump over multiple combat rounds' interpretation, then your movement speed provides a hard limit to the length of your jump. Since a high level monk can jump about 90 feet (based on Acrobatics bonuses), if you took away his Fast Movement he wouldn't be able to jump that far except during a Run action. So, kinda?
Next question...
Does the "running" in running jump, mean the same thing as running at 4x your land speed? Is it assumed (dangerous, I know), that when you run for 10', that you reach your 4x running speed?
Would that automatically make your maximum horizontal running jump distance for a round be 4x your land speed? 5x with the Run feat?
I guess it depends if you have done anything else that round. If all you are doing is jumping across something, then you should be able to dedicate your entire round's worth of action towards your jump.
Clear as mud? :)
Sufficiently clear for me.
Does the "running" in running jump, mean the same thing as running at 4x your land speed?
In my opinion, no. It means you move forwards ten feet as part of your move action, and then you jump twenty feet (or whatever) as the rest of your move action.
These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start.
It doesn't say anything about using a Run action, just that you need some space. But some GMs will disagree.
Forum debate ten years agoOh, and I forgot this rule earlier:
Faster Base Movement: Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
So, if a monk's "enhancement bonus to his land speed" counts as "base land speed" (which it probably does) then that increases jumping distance too.
I'm guessing yes to the monk's Fast Movement. Please note on the spell Cheetah's Sprint it statesAs with other effects that increase your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance.This seems to suggest that anything that affects your speed, which in this case I think means Base Land Speed, affects your jumping distance. The spell Expeditious Retreat has the same language on it.
The spell Jump adds +10, +20, or +30 to your Acrobatics check for jumping, but doesn't increase maximum distance that can be covered. Expeditious Retreat on the other hand would add a static +12 to your jump check but also increase the total distance you could jump by 30' on one jump.
Haste also has the same language.
I think this is the distinction by the way: you can only travel up to your base movement on a SINGLE jump check, which in turn is associated with a single move action. One jump = up to base movement. So while high level monks may outpace even their own enhanced movement speeds with their Acrobatics bonuses, many PCs would require hitting a +11 to +21 or greater skill bonus in order to lose potential distance on a single jump.Because of this single jump/Move action distinction, my question is: do you have to take multiple 10' running starts for multiple jumps?
I don't believe this is accurate.
"No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round."
Is not a limit per action. It's a limit for the entire round (and as I've noted isn't even specifically a limit on jumping distance, but a limit on distance moved - the only question in regards to whether there is a jumping distance limit is if ending your turn mid jump is a legal action or not).
Note the distance that can be jumped is actually spelled out in the acrobatics rules:
"For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land."
Wind Jump (Su): A monk with this ki power can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a move action to grant himself a fly speed (with perfect maneuverability) equal to his base land speed. He must end his movement each round on solid ground (or some other surface that can support his weight) or fall as normal...
Ha, didn't realize the entire spell had been quoted because of the ... you had at the end. For this I believe this is a specific rule with this spell. e.g, spell does
1) Grant user ability to fly (awesome, we can reference rules on flying, hovering, etc)2) Except, we have a specific rule overriding the general flying rules, you must end each turn on a solid surface. I think it lends some credence to the idea you must end your turn on solid ground (or fall) with a normal jump, but I don't feel it is a particularly strong argument.
How are people dividing up the jump? I literally don't understand what people are talking about or alluding to.
A double move is one action equivalent to two movements, right?
Running is one action equivalent to four movements, right?
Jumping is one action equivalent to one half of a movement, right?
Running jump is one action equivalent to one movement -10', right? Or is it equivalent to four movements -10'?
When the GM asks you what you do, and you say "run"... do you just move your character 4x your movement, or do you treat it as four separate movements?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well double move isn't an action type, it's just moving twice.
Running allows you to move up to 4 times your base movement speed, as a full round action (which has restrictions).
Jumping isn't its own an action typically, it's done as part of another action to move.
So at least myself, I say your movement speed to determine the limit of your jump depends on what action to move you are using.
Well that settles it, doesn't it?
If jumping is part of an action, then it's not part of two actions... goodbye all questions related to a double move action.
Now, since running is 4x your land speed, or 5x with the Run feat, and it is a single action, it is obviously the maximum a character can move in a round... without magic or Mythic leapfrog nonsense.
Therefore, in relation to the maximum horizontal distance you can jump, it is twice your land speed for a standing jump. 4x your land speed -10' for a running jump. 5x your land speed -10' with the Run feat.
To answer the original question, the maximum movement for a round would be equal to your running movement. The is no way to move further in a single round without magic or shenanigans.
Now, in regards to jumping... Mark Hoover brings up an interesting point about running and hampered movement. Obviously the pit/chasm/creek you are jumping across qualifies, unless there is a unique rule stating that jumping avoids the hampered movement. A rule which none of us have found or quoted thusfar.
That little bit of information makes the running distance irrelevant in relation to jumping. And we are back to your land speed adjusted for encumbrance.
Jumping is part of one action, so no double moves.
Running automatically fails in hampered movement, therefore using the actual run action is not going to work with a jump, either. Unless you are just jumping for sake of jumping and there is nothing that can be considered as hampered movement.
How are people dividing up the jump? I literally don't understand what people are talking about or alluding to.
People are doing it differently from one another because the rules aren't very clear, and because jumps of more than ten feet aren't used very often so it's rarely discussed.
I certainly wouldn't restrict a jump to a single move action. (After all, you can jump during a Run or Charge action...)
I'm pretty sure the sole purpose of the "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round" rule is that you shouldn't be able to move faster than normal just because you're jumping. If you could do that, PCs might start jumping everywhere to save time.
Considering can definitely run and jump, I don't think we should be applying the rules for running so strictly to say you can't jump while running, or rather attempting to jump over a hole would block you from running.
Doesn't that strike anyone as a sort of nonsensical hardline RAW approach?
I mean, didn't we get some sort of clarification that people could actually jump while charging, and charging is about as restrictive as running.
And charging will let you move double your move distance as an an action.
I'm pretty sure the sole purpose of the "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round" rule is that you shouldn't be able to move faster than normal just because you're jumping. If you could do that, PCs might start jumping everywhere to save time.
Exactly, I'm pretty sure it's there to stop people from saying "Well I managed to get a +100 bonus to jumping, so even without a running start I can jump 50ft, which is further than my movement speed so I just jump everywhere."
If they were trying to establish a rule, maybe they should have just made a rule... you know, wrote it down somewhere, anywhere, in the mountains of content that they have published. Lol.
And, it sure seems like a stupid thing to go out of your way to stop... literally, who cares if the characters hop everywhere? Good job boosting your Acrobatics skill, hope you don't roll your ankle when you land. You can't see the square you are landing in very well without the spell to make Perception checks at range, so you might land in quicksand or a bear trap...
They have to dedicate quite a bit to consistently exceed their land speed with a jump... with that much dedication, they deserve to be able to do so, in my opinion.
So what your saying is the lack of any rule about being able to jump specifically while running means you absolutely can't jump.
And that somehow, since you can't jump while running, it means that your "maximum movement for the round" means your movement speed (i.e. the amount you could move in a single move action)?
That seems obviously wrong, because it seems like they would have just said your jump distance can't exceed your movement speed, which is much clearer than what your "maximum movement for the round" is.
It seems that they would have just said a lot of freaking things that they just, well, didn't.
They could have just as easily added clarification to the whole hampered movement and running section stating that jumping over difficult terrain is permitted so long as there's sufficient space overhead for your body to travel the distance... and you make the Acrobatics check.
They defined hustle, TWO types of running, and a bunch of tables and charts on overland movements, forced marches, and ships... because we encounter forced marches SO often. Lol.
But jumping? Nobody ever does that. Apparently nobody ever jumps in this game, UNLESS they are obviously trying to exceed their land speed, and we better put an end to that with a really poorly written, ambiguous one-line statement at the end of the Acrobatics check definition...
They have to dedicate quite a bit to consistently exceed their land speed with a jump...
Ah, but you could take your Standard action, then get a 25-foot run up during your Move action, and then jump at the end of your Move action to exceed your normal movement even with mediocre Acrobatics skill...
I still don't understand how people are getting away with that.
With a 30' land speed... if you take a standard action, then move 25' into a jump, you still finish your jump on your turn. So you got a 25' running start to jump 5'... good job.
You do NOT start your jump on this turn, pause mid-air, wait for your next turn, and get to... I don't know what people think happens here... make another jump?
I still don't understand how people are getting away with that.
With a 30' land speed... if you take a standard action, then move 25' into a jump, you still finish your jump on your turn. So you got a 25' running start to jump 5'... good job.
Only if you're applying a rule that you cannot move further than your normal maximum movement when you jump. Isn't that basically the rule you were saying wasn't needed?
You do NOT start your jump on this turn, pause mid-air, wait for your next turn, and get to...
Eh, no rule against that as far as I know. If a GM decides to allow splitting a jump over multiple turns then it would work like this:
At the end of one turn (with 30 base speed) you move 25 feet and start a jump of 10 feet. Your turn ends with you in the middle of your jump. You'd have to start your next turn by taking a Move action. This would involve completing the second half of your jump using up 5 feet of your movement limit (you already made your Acrobatics check on the previous round so wouldn't have to roll), and then you'd have another 25 feet to play around with to complete your Move action.
The only real problem with this interpretation is that it draws attention to the weirdness of turn-based gameplay where everyone freezes in place waiting for their go.
The only real problem with this interpretation is that it draws attention to the weirdness of turn-based gameplay where everyone freezes in place waiting for their go.
Which I find preferable compared to the opposing wierdness of "I can jump 30' if I jump at the start of my turn, but only 5' if I do it at the end of my turn". Which is really just the other side of the coin of wierdness for turn-based gameplay.
Out of all my time playing DnD, I have never encountered this. I have been in elaborate battles, where multiple players were stringing together multiple turns in one mosaic of death and destruction. I have had people say what they intend to do next in order to set it up.
I have never seen someone start to jump and say, "tune in next turn for the conclusion of this turn's jump"...
Never seen it or heard about it being done until today, in this thread. Didn't know it was possible. Don't know why anyone would ever want to even try it. It seems like monkey-business shenanigans... OR the complete and utter lack of understanding what turns are in the sense of a turn-based game.
Like everyone else at the table is capable of doing what they need done completely in their turn... but SOMEONE is only halfway through their jump at the end of their turn? Screw that guy. GTFOH.
Whether it's supposed to work that way or not, from now on at my tables, Fast Movement will henceforth count towards your maximum jumping distance... because fun.
Still have to complete the jump in one turn, but have at it otherwise.
Like everyone else at the table is capable of doing what they need done completely in their turn... but SOMEONE is only halfway through their jump at the end of their turn? Screw that guy. GTFOH.
You've probably also never had anyone get bull rushed over a ledge that exceeds 500' distance, so that the falling character ends their turn mid-fall, and continues falling on their next turn.
You may have been missing out on some spells that take more than 1 turn to cast too. Or disarming a trap/picking a lock during the heat of battle. Should they be told to GTFOH too?
I think you've been missing out on some things :)
Thus 'Base Speed' is simply racial +untyped bonuses (not enhancement).
Acrobatics states
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet.
So by that reasoning, enhancement bonuses to speed should not increase jump checks.
Haste states
This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.
Emphasis mine. So since haste is an enhancement bonus to speed, then it doesn't actually increase a creatures jumping distance since normally enhancement bonus's don't increase base speed right?
Or, the rules are just badly written, and any increase (or decrease) to your ground speed increases (or decreases) your jumping ability, regardles of why you are faster (or slower).
and I don't know where GMs get the idea that jumps end at the start of the characters next turn. Skill usage is an action defined within the round (the rules note there are exceptions, but not in this case for Acrobatics).
Should we start with the idea that there is no general rule that skill usage happens within a single round? You need to look at indivudual skills to see what type of action (if any) and how many rounds they take to do.
The general rule on skills says
Action: The type of action using the skill requires, or the amount of time required for a check.
Note there isn't anything that says '1 round, or 1 standard action' is the default. But even if there was, acrobatics states
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
To which you might claim, you are using it during a move action, so the jump ends when your action does. To which I'd refer you back to the idea of using a double move to jump 60' in one jump - unless you believe you'd have to make two separate jumps to jump 60' with a base speed of 30' - in which case see acrobatics restriction on jumping not allowing you to exceed your maximum movement for the round (not within the action).
So if I can jump 60' with two movement actions, why can't I jump 90' with 3? The jump itself takes as many actions as it requires me to complete the jump.
Expeditious Retreat says:
This spell increases your base land speed by 30 feet. This adjustment is treated as an enhancement bonus.
So I think we're supposed to treat an enhancement bonus to land speed as increasing your 'base land speed' for the purposes of jumping.
Common Term Speed from CRB:
Base Speed
Base speed is your unencumbered speed for a specified type of movement. Your base speed for any movement type is calculated in a similar manner as described in Base Land speed. When a speed type is not referenced, base speed usually implies base land speed.Base Land Speed
Base land speed is your unencumbered speed. Base land speed is calculated by applying all modifiers to your character’s speed with the exception of armor or encumbrance adjustments or any effect that modifies your “normal speed”.
These are a miss-sourced quotes. I presume you got them from d20pfsrd.com, because they are not in the CRB. Indeed, the site copy-pasted them from this user-made forum post.
Of course, there is no mention in these quetes that enhancement bonuses don't count for base speed/base land speed, so I have no idea where you're pulling that from. Indeed, any change to speed apart from encumberance* seems to affect jumping, because the Slow spell states "A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed." CRB pg. 344
*) Which is way weird!
My ninja has an Acrobatics of 25 [11 ranks so far] along with Boots of Springing and Striding. The boots give +10' enhanced movement and +5 comp when jumping. Since my base speed is 30', the boots bring it up to 40' and I get a static +4 [already added in above].
Having ki, I don't need a running start if I have at least 1 point i my pool. By spending 1 point of ki, I can add 20' to my speed for a static +8. Being 10th level or better, the DC is halved.
So, spending a point of ki, my skill becomes 33. Take-10 gives 43. That equals a jump of 86' with an effective speed of 50'. Since my double move is 120', I can do this. [Maximum w/the Run action would be 240'.]
If I had the Acrobatic Master trick, I would instead use it for a +20 on the check rather than the +20' (+8). But my Run would cap at 160'.
The Cheetah's Sprint is not as good as you think. If your base speed is 30', then sprint gets you 300' in the round, or 10X vs. a Run for 4X (or 5X). It does not increase your speed to 10X. It also does not stack with Haste, my boots, or the Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider spells.
If I were to jump while wielding an Akitonian Blade (8,311 gp), I would jump 3X as much. So my Take-10 goes from 86' to 258', but capped to 240'.
If I also had the High Jumper trick, my Jump DCs would get halved. With the blade, I could jump up 129'.
/cevah