Doshko Specialist Problem

[Arachnidious]

In new book we have an archetype Doshko Specialist. And we have some problem with it on my opinion.

Tooth That Seeks Honor (Ex) 2nd Level
The second doshko tooth resists dishonor. Your training
empowers you to recover from missed blows by extending your
reach or changing tactics. When you miss an opponent with a
melee attack with your doshko, you can grant that doshko
the disarm, reach, sunder (Armory 30), or trip weapon special
property until the start of your next turn. If you miss again
before the start of your next turn, you can grant the doshko an
additional special property from the list. You can grant a doshko
only two special properties at a time with this ability.

Do I need to make a full attack to get this bonus? And what about many unwieldy doshkos? OK, after the second miss, will my doshko have both properties until the end of encounter or only the last one?

[Nyerkh]

I do see issues, but I'm not sure what your question is. So let's look.

- I see no reason to believe a full attack is required.
- What about unwieldy doshkos ?
- Missing twice doesn't change the duration of the properties : they last until the start of your next turn.

And that is the part that really stings, isn't it.

It takes some very specific builds and the perfect conditions to get any use out of the maneuver properties on the same round you get them. Reach might at least help with AoOs once in while, so for most characters it's probably your safest bet.
A clotheslining Vanguard might get some mileage out of trip, but it's one of the very few ways to do anything with the maneuver properties - I actually can't think of much else.

It's overall not the greatest ability. Which is mostly fine.
Lasting until the end of your next turn would bring about a lot more flexibility, but maybe too much so considering what else the archetype does.

[Arachnidious]

Yes. For many cases the 2nd level ability is useless. I have said about full attack as I see this is only way to get two properties. And if I have gotten two properties, I would be with at least last ot them AFTER the beginning of the next round. It is so because, beside the reach, having others at not your turn is useless.

[kaid]

Its not great but basically on a miss giving your weapon reach means you have a bigger AOO foot print so you may wind up getting at least a hit in that round that you otherwise may not have had. Not great but something that you probably get reasonable use of.

[HammerJack]

Reach, Sunder and Trip are still only usable in the edge case of an envoy of sufficient level giving you an extra standard action.

[kaid]

HammerJack wrote:

Reach, Sunder and Trip are still only usable in the edge case of an envoy of sufficient level giving you an extra standard action.

Reach could fire off on an attack of opportunity and allows you to easily threaten a bigger area. That alone probably makes it a reasonable option that gets some use in most play sessions. Still niche but I have seen much more niche things than that.

[HammerJack]

I meant to type "disarm, sunder and trip". The three properties that never have an out of turn use.

[Garretmander]

kaid wrote:

HammerJack wrote:

Reach, Sunder and Trip are still only usable in the edge case of an envoy of sufficient level giving you an extra standard action.

Reach could fire off on an attack of opportunity and allows you to easily threaten a bigger area. That alone probably makes it a reasonable option that gets some use in most play sessions. Still niche but I have seen much more niche things than that.

IIRC, unwieldy weapons can't be used for AoO, so for unwieldy doshkos, this ability is almost entirely useless.

[HammerJack]

Yes, but at least that's only for a subset of doshkos.

[Nyerkh]

That's still two of the five doshko lines, not a negligible subset.
I'll also admit that unwieldy not allowing AoOs slipped my mind. That certainly doesn't help the Specialist, though I feel it's more geared towards classes that would rather full attack anyway, so... Heh.

Still this is an issue that could solve itself in the future but for now, as it "only" needs ways to do those maneuvers as part of a full attack or more ways to do them as AoOs, etc.
Until then, the Tooth That Seeks Honor doesn't do much, if anything.

Whether that's intended or not (probably not), who knows.

[HammerJack]

2 of 6, if we count doshko-shaped solar weapons, but that's nitpicking.

[Squiggit]

Yeah, there are variant doshkos that aren't unwieldy, but the standard version of the weapon definitely is.

It seems borderline broken to create a "doshko specialist" that has abilities that don't function with a normal doshko.

[HammerJack]

I would consider not working with the worst doshkos to be a much smaller problem than most of the weapon properties gained through that ability never being usable without a high level ally with a specific ally spending their standard action and a resolve point, ahead of your turn.

[Garretmander]

HammerJack wrote:

I would consider not working with the worst doshkos to be a much smaller problem than most of the weapon properties gained through that ability never being usable without a high level ally with a specific ally spending their standard action and a resolve point, ahead of your turn.

If the doshko isn't unwieldy, I want to say reach is a very decent use for AoOs, and trip isn't too bad either.

[HammerJack]

How would you use the trip property, when it ends at the start of your next turn? It's not like you can trip on an AoO.

[Garretmander]

HammerJack wrote:

How would you use the trip property, when it ends at the start of your next turn? It's not like you can trip on an AoO.

...nevermind, I thought it could be used as part of a full attack, which it can't without other abilities supporting. So, literally only reach is useful.

[Christian Capra]

I'm also having a similar issue with the same question that has been brought up by the OP.

For context, I am currently using a character with this archetype in a new campaign, with a flame doshko. The character is almost level 3.

From what I understand, the 'Tooth that Seeks Honor' ability kinda stunts itself. Looking at the ability, the main problem that comes with it is the "until the ***START*** of your next turn."

Not the end, the start. What this implies to me, is, the only way that you are ever able to make use of the special weapon properties (disarm/sunder/trip- the ones that require a standard action to use) that you may/may not obtain from missing is if you delay/hold your action when your turn comes around. If you do delay/hold action before using your standard action, you CAN get your AoO back before your turn comes back to you, but you won't get another one until next turn... oh, and your initiative placement is now far worse.

So, with that all said and done, it CAN be helpful for your teammates to put your opponent in an unfortunate situation. Your character has done their part, been EXTREMELY tactical and predicted enemy movements/actions/whatever, and has received a reward on their turn, as a result. All this said, however, it feels as though all of these abilities, when laid out, seem as though they'd function more fluidly if they lasted until the END of the character's next turn.

If they lasted until the end, your character could full attack, perhaps miss twice, then now have the reach and the neat fun of a combat maneuver bonus- it wouldn't do MUCH, but it would change up the battlefield without causing am initiative headache AND your character could still hold on to their precious AoO.

Now, perhaps this may imply that an errata may be due in place because of faulty word choice, but all of this if and only if you choose to use a doshko that ISN'T unwieldy- which a lot of them are.

TL,DR; Unless your doshko is unwieldy (in which, this won't apply to you), the 'Tooth that Seeks Honor' ability requires a lot of prediction and sacrifice from the character with this archetype. It seems like it may need an errata/clarification to give the ability a duration til the end of your next turn.

[Nyerkh]

Lasting until the end of next turn would make it significantly stronger, as mentioned earlier.
Between the properties, the level 6 tooth and all else you can stack on top, it could end up making the Doshko Specialist the master of those maneuvers. Not necessarily a bad thing, but a noticeable upgrade.
I wouldn't mind, I think. Seems to fit the idea of a weapon master.

That aside : I'm curious now.
How many ways are there to get anything out of the maneuver properties as things stand today, early May 2020 ?

Any ways to use maneuvers as AoOs or even as part of a full attack ? Or any other way to trigger one before the start of one's next turn ?
- I mentioned the Vanguard's Clothesline earlier, for AoO trips.
- Friendly envoy buddy giving you a bonus action is another.
...
Anything else ?

[Christian Capra]

Nyerkh wrote:

Any ways to use maneuvers as AoOs or even as part of a full attack ? Or any other way to trigger one before the start of one's next turn ?
- I mentioned the Vanguard's Clothesline earlier, for AoO trips.
- Friendly envoy buddy giving you a bonus action is another.
...
Anything else ?

The 'Living Ladder' feat from COM can knock a target prone if you hit them with a standard action attack FROM prone... but only with an unarmed strike, and only if you're the same size/bigger.

At the very least, it'd be something to consider alongside the 'Ground Fighting' feat, which allows for a great amount of cheese.

It isn't technically a combat maneuver, but it does what it does.

[Nyerkh]

Yeah... between feats, gear, fusions, spells and whatnot, there's plenty of those, especially when it comes to making people prone (and a few disarming ones) but they're not really relevant here. Good as they may be.

As long as there's no "real" maneuver attempted then the related wepaon properties don't matter and Tooth That Seeks Honor does nothing, once more.

[HammerJack]

I guess bring an uplifted bear and having an ally with Coordinated Charge is another edge case that would allow Trip to function.

[Nimor Starseeker]

Maybe this was a typo, and should have said something along the lines of: Until the end of you next turn...
It would make a lot more sense..

[Christian Capra]

Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Maybe this was a typo, and should have said something along the lines of: Until the end of you next turn...

It would make a lot more sense..

I think we're all sorta coming to the same conclusion...

I don't know what else to add, but I do wish that there was some better understanding of how it's meant to function, if a dev could weigh in.

[Christian Capra]

As a passing final note, if someone *does* find a way that "The Tooth that Seeks Honor" works besides delaying/holding turns/actions, please reply directly to me- I'm thoroughly curious.

That's all.

[Claxon]

Looking at the Doshko Specialist Archetype...it's overall pretty meh.

Especially because most of the later abilities are meant to synergize with Tooth that Seeks Honor. But that ability basically doesn't work.

Like you can get reach, on weapons that are not unwieldy and maybe get an AoO, and that's it.

I mean I guess the bonus to maneuvers from the 6th level ability works, but that's pretty mediocre.

The 12th level ability is okay, but you have crit for it to matter...and that's just not that common in Starfinder.

Honestly I'd probably just play a blitz soldier who keeps his class features (bonus feats) gained at those respective levels.

[Nyerkh]

How about some reasonable theorycrafting : assuming it's supposed to last until the end of next turn, how good would it be ?

On one hand, if you full attack you'll likely miss often enough to trigger Tooth That Seeks Honor semi-reliably.
And between those properties, the 6th level tooth, maybe an Improved Maneuver feat, you can rack up a more than decent bonus. Nullifying the +8KAC if not better, depending.

On the other hand, the usual maneuver issue : they're standard actions, so that's a round you're not full attacking. Might be worth it once in a while but not hugely so, especially since you're supposed to already be engaged in melee.
The maneuvers this allows aren't the worse though.

It wouldn't need much to be okay (a way to weave a maneuver in a full-attack, or something comparable ?) , but I don't feel like it'd be all that interesting until then.

Either way : it needs something. Right now... It's not great.

[LotsOfLore]

Could we please have a reply from a dev on this? I mean whether it's a typo or not.
Thank you

(also, I houserule that u can make maneuvers as AoOs in general, which makes this thing a little better)

[Nyerkh]

Here, as is ? Unlikely.
I think a clear post containing what we know and the issue we see, along with a bunch of FAQ clicks is the best chance to get an answer.

Let's try :

Doshko Specialist wrote:

Tooth That Seeks Honor (Ex) 2nd Level

The second doshko tooth resists dishonor. Your training empowers you to recover from missed blows by extending your reach or changing tactics. When you miss an opponent with a melee attack with your doshko, you can grant that doshko the disarm, reach, sunder (Armory 30), or trip weapon special property until the start of your next turn. If you miss again before the start of your next turn, you can grant the doshko an additional special property from the list. You can grant a doshko only two special properties at a time with this ability.

The issue being :

- the weapon properties only last until the start of your next turn.
- maneuvers are standard actions by default, meaning the temporary properties dissipate before they can be used.
- there are precious few ways to either get more actions or use maneuvers other than with said default standard action (namely, there's one class specific option) (or a potential high level envoy buddy, which a level 2 ability shouldn't be entirely dependent on).

All this meaning that gaining maneuver weapon properties, after an attack, that end at the start of one's next turn does basically nothing.
Reach has it a bit less bad, thanks to the potential for AoOs, but barely.

What's the intent here ?
Should it last until the end of next turn ?

...
Should this be its own thread ? I'm not sure about FAQ etiquette.

[Christian Capra]

I can see now that the previous post was marked as a potential FAQ candidate- I'm happy to see progress and I look forward to the hardworking staff answering our questions.

[Tellendor]

With respect, I think part of the answer is something very left field that I almost missed myself.

Now it could ALSO be a typo, but Doshko Specialist is the only archetype I've found so far that reads "grants additional class features" not alternate (the other archetypes in the same rulebook definitely say alternate).

To me, this makes it more about the flavour. The abilities aren't MEANT to be that powerful because otherwise they're a free leg-up on everyone else. It's an option that's there if you want to build the doshko into your core character motivation.

I love rules/options that work properly more than most, so I understand the frustration of seeing something that feels like you can't use it properly, but I think this particular archetype is there for players who get more from roleplay and flavour, and I for one think there's always room to be accommodating of everyone's build style. Every option doesn't have to be tuned perfectly.

That's all just my humble opinion anyway :-) Like I said it could be a typo

[Reain]

Nyerkh wrote:

Here, as is ? Unlikely.

I think a clear post containing what we know and the issue we see, along with a bunch of FAQ clicks is the best chance to get an answer.

Let's try :

Doshko Specialist wrote:

Tooth That Seeks Honor (Ex) 2nd Level

The second doshko tooth resists dishonor. Your training empowers you to recover from missed blows by extending your reach or changing tactics. When you miss an opponent with a melee attack with your doshko, you can grant that doshko the disarm, reach, sunder (Armory 30), or trip weapon special property until the start of your next turn. If you miss again before the start of your next turn, you can grant the doshko an additional special property from the list. You can grant a doshko only two special properties at a time with this ability.

The issue being :

- the weapon properties only last until the start of your next turn.
- maneuvers are standard actions by default, meaning the temporary properties dissipate before they can be used.
- there are precious few ways to either get more actions or use maneuvers other than with said default standard action (namely, there's one class specific option) (or a potential high level envoy buddy, which a level 2 ability shouldn't be entirely dependent on).

All this meaning that gaining maneuver weapon properties, after an attack, that end at the start of one's next turn does basically nothing.
Reach has it a bit less bad, thanks to the potential for AoOs, but barely.

What's the intent here ?
Should it last until the end of next turn ?

...
Should this be its own thread ? I'm not sure about FAQ etiquette.

Having some issues with this with my group as well, so here are my thoughts.

It says, "you can grant (the special properties) until the start of your next turn."

So the way I see it the properties are granted at the start of the Soldier's next turn. They don't end there. This prevents the soldier from applying the special properties to their second additional attack if they were to do a Full Attack.

In the next sentence, "If you miss again before the start of your next turn, you can grant the doshko an additional property from the list." So this only really applies if you miss both attacks in a full attack.

I think the intent with this ability is to pump out full attacks. Two misses, two special properties for your next turn's attacks. One hit and one miss, one special property for your next turn's attack.

[Raizle54]

I would like to bump this thread it is a problem in my opinion mostly the problem of several unwieldy doshkos being outright unusable with one of the basic abilities and one of those being all physical damage versions of the Doshko

[Joe Pasini]

Errata updated—thanks for the question and FAQ clicks!

[Lethallin]

Well, that makes it slightly better, ending at the end of your next turn.

[Xenocrat]

I'm going to reward this FAQ effort by buying some SFS scenarios.