Now that I've finally got my physical copy of Gods and Magic, I'm getting around to performing the rewrite of the Gentleman's Guide to Deities and Domains. I'm of course covering all the domains, but rating every single god would be frankly a waste of time and space. Instead, I'm putting together a system for rating deity choices for players (at least from an optimization standpoint). Better to teach a man to fish and all that.
I wanted to know if people had any feedback or input into this system before I put everything together.
Oh, and this one's actually going into a Google Doc and not Reddit. You're welcome.
For Cloistered Clerics:
Cloistered Clerics care primarily about their spellcasting benefits. Domain spells, granted spells, and the effectiveness of alignment-linked spells are their main benefits from a strong choice of deity.
- Add 1 star if the deity offers a strong choice of domain.
If there’s only a singular decent domain spell, grant 0.5 stars.
If there are multiple strong domain options, add an additional 0.5 stars.
- Add 1 star if the deity offers a strong granted spell.
If there’s two strong spells, or a strong granted spell and two useable options, add an additional 0.5 stars.
- Add 0.5 stars if the deity is Good Aligned.
If the deity is Lawful or Chaotic aligned as well as good, add an additional 0.5 stars.
- Add 1 star if the deity offers the Healing Font (or both).
- Add 0.5 stars if the deity lacks a good alignment, but offers the longbow, a shortbow, or a similarly action-efficient ranged weapon as the favoured weapon.
- If the deity comes with restrictive or disruptive edicts and/or anathema, subtract anything from 0.5 to 2 stars, depending on degree of severity. (As appropriate for your campaign; talk to your GM and fellow players.)
For Warpriests:
Warpriests are still invested in their spellcasting options, but also care deeply about their weapon choices. Given their significant Multiple Attribute Dependency and lower spellcasting proficiencies, Warpriests value spells which Do Not Require Spell Attacks or Saving throws (DNRSAS).
- Add 1.5 stars if the deity offers a one handed d8 martial weapon, or a one handed d6 simple weapon. (Longswords, battleaxes, bastard swords, maces, spears, etc fit in this category.)
- Add 1 star if the deity offers a one handed d6 martial weapon with decent traits, a two handed d12 martial weapon, a two handed d8 or d10 weapon with reach, or a d4 simple weapon with decent traits. (Katanas, scimitars, rapiers, hatchets, greatswords, halberds, glaives, daggers, etc fit in this category.)
- Add 0.5 stars if the deity offers a d4 martial weapon with reach and trip, or a two handed d10 martial weapon. (Whips, falchions, scythes, etc fit in this category.)
- Add 1 star if the deity offers a strong choice of DNRSAS domain.
If there is an additional strong DNRSAS domain option, or an exceptional save-based domain option alongside a strong DNRSAS domain, add an additional 0.5 stars.
If there is one or more strong save-based domains but no strong DNRSAS domain, grant 0.5 stars.
- Add 1 star if the deity offers two or more decent DNRSAS spells.
Add 0.5 stars if the deity instead offers one decent DNRSAS spell, or any strong save-based spells.
- Add 1 star if the deity offers the Healing Font.
If the deity offers both Healing and Harming fonts, and you have a way to learn the true strike spell, either through your granted spells or through Adaptive Adept, add an additional 0.5 stars.
If the deity only offers Harming Font but you can access true strike, grant 0.5 stars.
- If the deity comes with restrictive or disruptive edicts and/or anathema, subtract anything from 0.5 to 2 stars, depending on degree of severity. (As appropriate for your campaign; talk to your GM and fellow players.)
Will you cover divine sorcerers too? With the Blessed Blood feat from G&M, their choice of deity is also quite impactful.
Will you cover divine sorcerers too? With the Blessed Blood feat from G&M, their choice of deity is also quite impactful.
Divine Sorcerers and Champions get mentioned, but not their own full star systems. Divine Sorcerers basically use alignment and granted spells from Cloistered Clerics, while Champions use alignment and domains from Warpriests.
Will you cover divine sorcerers too? With the Blessed Blood feat from G&M, their choice of deity is also quite impactful.Divine Sorcerers and Champions get mentioned, but not their own full star systems. Divine Sorcerers basically use alignment and granted spells from Cloistered Clerics, while Champions use alignment and domains from Warpriests.
That makes sense! I look forward to reading the completed guide.
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I think you need to add a little for particularly good access to non class options.
For example, one major reason I chose Gozreh for my cleric was because I wanted to multiclass into druid (which has a very strong synergy with cleric). While that is arguably roleplaying there are quite a few GMs who would look askance at a cleric of, say, Nethys being a druid.
Also, make sure that ranged weapons includes things like the trident. Returning is pretty cheap.
Praise Gozreh :-)
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I'm going through this, and have found an interesting combo.
The Plague Domain offers some decent, if unreliable debuffs, and the ability to spread them around. The basic plan is to slap an enemy with the Divine Plague, then use Foul Miasma to spread it around.
Then I noticed the little clause on Foul Miasma permitting a deliberate crit fail.
Thus, the best use for this is to inflict Divine Plague on yourself in the morning, and let it progress to Stage 3. Stage 3 lasts all day, and if you choose enfeebled, won't really leave you with too many problems (since the Slowed condition is limited to Stage 2). You can then use Foul Miasma on yourself to unleash Divine Plague on any poor sap who gets too close to you.
Awkwardly, it’s kept fair by the 15 foot radius, the fact it’s not ally-friendly, and that you only get the debuff of whatever you infect yourself with (which will generally be enfeebled).
Of course, at that point you just have to convince your Big Stupid Fighter to accept a debuff (Stupified isn't problem for him, right?) and you turn him into a walking biological weapon.
I think you should ditch the star system, simply highlight which attributes are better for a deity and why. Then the players can determine which factors apply to their PC, and which don't.
It'd lead to more applicability, since why would a player bother to calculate the stars of two competing deity choices? They'd have to reverse engineer back to see which stars are actually applicable anyway.
And valuing a 1d6 one-handed simple weapon (yes, 1d8 later) over a 1d12 two-handed weapon seems wonky. Those d12 martial weapons also have better Critical Specialization effects that simple weapons, not just traits.
Don't really need a free hand for a shield when you can cast Shield, and Warpriests need all the damage sources they can get given they'll be behind on bonus damage compared to martials.
The thing about Warpriests is that they're fragile. The shield spell alone is not enough to keep a character with 8HP/level and mediocre AC proficiency safe. A sturdy shield is necessary for a Warpriest if they want to effectively frontline. You get better AC, and can block damage more than once. In my experience, that's necessary for otherwise fragile frontliners.
Better critical specialisation effects don't really apply to Warpriests. You're not a Fighter, or even a Champion in terms of accuracy. You're not going to crit enough for it to matter.
I'm playing a cloistered cleric of Nocticula in a game currently - any advice?
I picked the deity for fluff reasons (patron of outcasts and eccentric artists in a circus), but I'm struggling to really utilize much of her kit. Is there anything I'm missing?
Penumbral Shroud is a decent debuff if you can land it on a foe without darkvision. Which can be awkward. Nondetection and creation aren't worth preparing most of the time, though.
Travel Domain is good for the fly speed at 9th level, and creation domain's Splash of Art is okay. Darkness domain can be good, but like Penumbral Shroud, depends on how many enemies have darkvision. Which can be a lot of them. Change Domain has okay utility.
On the whole, Nocticula is admittedly fairly weak deity. Her weapon sucks, her divine lance sucks, her granted spells are okay, and of her domains, only Travel is notable. By my scale, she comes in at around 2.5 stars.
I'd take Creation Domain first, and go on to pick up Travel Domain for its advanced domain spell at 8th or 10th level. You have decent debuff options; pump WIS and CHA, prepare Fear, boost Intimidation... you make a decent caster.
Penumbral Shroud is a decent debuff if you can land it on a foe without darkvision. Which can be awkward. Nondetection and creation aren't worth preparing most of the time, though.
Travel Domain is good for the fly speed at 9th level, and creation domain's Splash of Art is okay. Darkness domain can be good, but like Penumbral Shroud, depends on how many enemies have darkvision. Which can be a lot of them. Change Domain has okay utility.
On the whole, Nocticula is admittedly fairly weak deity. Her weapon sucks, her divine lance sucks, her granted spells are okay, and of her domains, only Travel is notable. By my scale, she comes in at around 2.5 stars.
I'd take Creation Domain first, and go on to pick up Travel Domain for its advanced domain spell at 8th or 10th level. You have decent debuff options; pump WIS and CHA, prepare Fear, boost Intimidation... you make a decent caster.
Any Cleric feats (other than the domain ones noted) that are superior to Bard multiclass for Inspire Courage (and eventually Heroics)?
A lot of them feel very... optional.
Any Cleric feats (other than the domain ones noted) that are superior to Bard multiclass for Inspire Courage (and eventually Heroics)?
A lot of them feel very... optional.
For a basic support caster without multiclassing... I'd go thusly.
1. Domain Initiate: Creation. (From Doctrine)
2. Healing Hands
4. Domain Initiate: Travel
6. Selective Energy
8. Channeled Succor.
10. Advanced Domain: Travel
12: Domain Focus
Which is a little dull.
If you want something more potent and interesting, the Splinter Faith and Syncretism feats both enable you to access possibilities beyond what Nocticula normally offers.
Any Cleric feats (other than the domain ones noted) that are superior to Bard multiclass for Inspire Courage (and eventually Heroics)?
A lot of them feel very... optional.
For a basic support caster without multiclassing... I'd go thusly.
1. Domain Initiate: Creation. (From Doctrine)
2. Healing Hands
4. Domain Initiate: Travel
6. Selective Energy
8. Channeled Succor.
10. Advanced Domain: Travel
12: Domain FocusWhich is a little dull.
If you want something more potent and interesting, the Splinter Faith and Syncretism feats both enable you to access possibilities beyond what Nocticula normally offers.
My current plan had Change as the level 1 Domain option for access to Darkvision if needed, and Adapted Cantrip (from Human) for TK projectile (use conveniently loose Daggers with Wisdom) as an offensive spell option.
I had looked at Syncretism for some overlapping field of concern deities - Sarenrae for redemption ( fire domain for offensive focus spell mostly - sun is really good but totally opposite of Nocticulas focus on nighttime), Shelyn for art (uh... pretty redundant here, passion feels awfully limited in application), Desna for travelers, moon associations etc (uh... luck? Moon seems inferior to Fire), and then I kind of hit a creative wall.
Fire Ray seemed neat, but I didn't get the impression that Expanded Domain Initiate got me extra Focus, which is unfortunate.
Is access to Fire Ray worth the feat if I already have TK projectile? It seems as though it is inferior to TK until 5th or so because of the fact that TK gets stat to damage.
The thing about Warpriests is that they're fragile. The shield spell alone is not enough to keep a character with 8HP/level and mediocre AC proficiency safe. A sturdy shield is necessary for a Warpriest if they want to effectively frontline. You get better AC, and can block damage more than once. In my experience, that's necessary for otherwise fragile frontliners.
Better critical specialisation effects don't really apply to Warpriests. You're not a Fighter, or even a Champion in terms of accuracy. You're not going to crit enough for it to matter.
It's reassuring to see another poster acknowledge 8-hp classes struggle in melee. I think the difference here is Warpriests supply their own healing. Two-action Heal + Strike seems like it'd be semi-common.
IMO, a solid weapon would be a bastard sword/dwarven war axe so one could Shield, then swap to Sturdy Shield when that's burned. Hopefully they've used their best attack(s) (True Strike (many deities), Zeal, Channel Smite, Weapon Storm (if accessed), or whatnot) before this.Looks like only Ragathiel (bastard sword) qualifies, though he does have True Strike & Zeal too. Plus Destruction & Haste which are also solid.
Wow, he's pretty intense! Hmm...
They can heal themselves, aye, but if you're spending half your time healing, you're not doing other things Clerics should be doing with their spells.
I have added a note that Katanas and bastard swords are a bit better since you can two-hand them, then switch in a shield for aggressive openers.
Also, I gave Zeal domain a D rating. Borderline F.
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They can heal themselves, aye, but if you're spending half your time healing, you're not doing other things Clerics should be doing with their spells.
I have added a note that Katanas and bastard swords are a bit better since you can two-hand them, then switch in a shield for aggressive openers.
Also, I gave Zeal domain a D rating. Borderline F.
What a Cleric should be doing with their spells depends on the party and the PC's role. A Warpriest focused on maintaining a melee presence w/ their spells shouldn't promise to be "The Cleric" as that'd be misleading.
Katanas & bastard swords also help you feel a sliver better when you're shield's broken. :)
Zeal: Weapon Surge, for a d8 weapon (or non-combat Cleric), would be poor to useless. And Zeal For Battle is atrocious. So for most Clerics, Zeal Domain would earn an F.
But for a max Str Cleric w/ True Strike & a 1d12 weapon, or for various martial classes w/ MCD Cleric, it makes for a nice burst of damage every lull. Only nice, but w/ Warpriests behind the curve on damage, they kinda need what they can get. (This works on the presumption that Warpriests are a viable combatant, which I'm uncertain of.)
(This is why I think grading class abilities is wonky; one score can't account well for a variety of iterations. Ex. Power Attack is fine w/ a maul, and horrid w/ a rapier.)
I'm surprised the ability to have both font is not rated an additional half star.
Arguably it is only useful at level 14 as fast channel only work if you have the right font or versatile font.
(Cast down + aoe damage is good)
I'm running the numbers on two-handing with shield against sword-and-boarding with a sturdy shield for Warpriests. There's quite a bit of Fermi-style ballparking involved, but in general, sword-and-boarding makes you 28% more durable, while two-handing gets you 22% more damage (though the difference when smiting is only 11%). On a level by level basis, two-handing seems best at levels 4 through 7, and then falls off after that, but is always worse when considering smiting.
That said, boss fights complicate things, where the extra durability means a lot less against an opponent you can't efficiently shield block. I also haven't factored in self-healing yet.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure two-handed weapons are the better choice for boss fights, but only for boss fights.
There's a lot of math here.
One thing that did surprise me is that Warpriest to-hit can actually keep up with regular martials thanks to heroism, and their damage isn't far behind. This means that my initial evaluation of multiattack weapon properties like agile and deadly was a bit off (though forceful still sucks).
I'm going to have to rework the weapon calculations from scratch.
What kind of cleric character concepts are you looking at, respectively what kind of cleric character concepts are deemed valid for PF2?
I think that the cloistered cleric as a main divine caster and wizard equivalent is pretty much clear but how about the warpriest? Are you considering offensive and defensive builds? And I am not only talking weapon and shield choices (so two-handed weapons versus sword and board), but playstyle choices. There is no discussion that a warpriest of Gorum using Greatsword, Harm, Cast Down, True Strike and Heroism will not be effective in melee, as probably will a warpriest of Iomedae using sword and shield, but what about cases where the warpriest has been chosen over the cloistered cleric because of his defensive capabilities but the character (as a concept) is not supposed to engage in melee often.
I am currently trying to pull such a concept in our current AP as my personal maxim is "the best healer is the alive healer", however 6 levels in I am already quite unsure if this is a valid warpriest concept at all in PF2, as the attribute toll for a warpriest is considerable and proficiency progression will see my DCs and counteract checks behind starting at level 7. Cloistered cleric going multiclass champion seems a lot better suited for the job if you only manage to survive the first few levels.
I'm almost 2000 words into my Warpriest evaluation (it's turning into a long discussion), and I'm still figuring it out.
So far, I've come to the following tentative conclusions.
Both one and two-handed Warpriests with full strength investment make effective frontliners, albeit with the need to spend the first turn powering up. I wouldn't want them as the main front liner (they just don't have enough HP, and having to use Heal to top up takes even more time and resources), but they'll do well enough alongside a bulkier buddy. No-one worries about the Warpriest when the Giant Barbarian next to him is doing his best blender impression. Alternatively, no-one worries about the Warpriest when the Champion next to him is making him nigh-untouchable.
In terms of front line spellcasting, Heal and heroism are bread and butter for a Warpriest, and neither cares about your Wisdom (unless you’re trying to hurt the undead, but in that case you should be smiting instead). Shield, magic weapon, bless, detection spells, anything you Channel Smite, most divination spells, restoration, silence, resistance effects, air walk, summon spells, plus granted spells like true strike, haste, wall spells, illusion spells (sort of), and a lot of niche utility spells also work perfectly fine without Wisdom. So an off-tank with heaps of support magic works fine.
Looking at the numbers for debuffs or damaging AOE... I don't think a Warpriest is going to reliably cut it. Enemy saves are high, and even the 'weak' save for an on-level enemy tends to be 'succeed on an 11 or 12'. Warpriests are behind for half their career (7-10, and 15+) on save DC, so even targeting weak saves isn't going to produce reliable results. Likewise, counteracting isn't going to be great, but Channeled Succor at least means you have access to counteract options in high leveled slots. Of course, a Warpriest has other things they want to be doing with their 8th level feat.
Personally, I really like the STR/WIS build which does the full martial shtick and carries some of the best save spells like Fear, Slow, and Fireball, plus half-save spells like Divine Aura where you still get benefits which don't care about the save. Plan A is always to frontline, but you can still use your spells as a backup when the situation arises.
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At this rate, I'm going to have three quarters of a Cleric guide done by the time I'm done.
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Please also consider action economy as well as I find my sword and board warpriest action starved like hell. Stride plus raise shield plus attack already is 3 actions and you have not yet cast a single-action or even 2-action spell. Especially if you want to do the later you need to carefully choose if you want to raise shield, attack with your weapon or move as your remaining action. Not having a shield has more benefits than just a bigger weapon die.
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For that reason, I think I'm going to be rating haste REALLY highly for Warpriests.
For that reason, I think I'm going to be rating haste REALLY highly for Warpriests.
With Haste, Heroism and Enlarge, a Warpriest is as good as any unbuffed martial.
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For that reason, I think I'm going to be rating haste REALLY highly for Warpriests.With Haste, Heroism and Enlarge, a Warpriest is as good as any unbuffed martial.
Not quite sure if this is agreement or sarcasm. :P
With Haste, Heroism and Enlarge, a Warpriest is as good as any unbuffed martial.
The awkward thing there is setup time and resource costs. Enlarge is a bit much at that point (and the loss of defense is worrying).
There's also the idea that if you can buff yourself, you could also/instead buff your martials. Who tend to get more out of it because of the increasing returns from numerical buffs in a +10 crit system.
Through this process, I'm coming more around to accepting that Warpriests didn't need Master weapon proficiency to keep up (they'd be damned strong if they did get it), but they're still not going to be as good a frontliner as a Fighter or a Ranger, even when buffed to the gills.
Which is fine. Fighters can't cast Miracle.
The alive healer will usually be the one that used a defensive spell in the first turn because AC is not a realiable way to do that.
4th Invisibility and Drop Dead to force enemies make DC11 flat checks to miss or just Disperse into air to nope out of the field until the end of the boss turn after being hit work wonders.
The alive healer will usually be the one that used a defensive spell in the first turn because AC is not a realiable way to do that.
4th Invisibility and Drop Dead to force enemies make DC11 flat checks to miss or just Disperse into air to nope out of the field until the end of the boss turn after being hit work wonders.
Yes, if you want notable defenses dont look for AC but for concealment or else. AC is only for mitigating your HP loss.
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Not quite sure if this is agreement or sarcasm. :PFor that reason, I think I'm going to be rating haste REALLY highly for Warpriests.With Haste, Heroism and Enlarge, a Warpriest is as good as any unbuffed martial.
It was definitely sarcasm. As GentlemanDM points out, you can't count non-personal buffs into the Warpriest's efficiency as they are in general better cast on other characters (a Barbarian will get way much out of Heroism than a Warpriest). The only exception may be Haste, but the Warpriest can't cast it anyway.
Honestly, the Warpriest has nothing to be good as a frontliner. Expert Proficiency with weapons and armors, medium armor proficiency, Shield Block and 8hp per level... So, no proficiency (all casters have Expert proficiency with weapons and armors), a bit of armor proficiency (nice, but not incredible), a general feat and average hps.
And Cleric's feat are not great to make something out of a Warpriest. Same for Divine spells.
In my opinion, playing a Warpriest is an exercice of optimization or frustration. I don't consider melee Warpriest viable with my current knowledge of the game. For me, the Warpriest is as much of a healbot than the Cleric, with a bigger focus on defense at the cost of Legendary spellcasting.
I don't think we'd ever call a melee Warpriest optimal, but I do think it can be viable as a secondary frontliner. After all, they're about as sturdy as Rogues and have significant burst potential through Channel Smite. They can't replace a Fighter or a Champion, but they can decently stand alongside them.
I don't think we'd ever call a melee Warpriest optimal, but I do think it can be viable as a secondary frontliner. After all, they're about as sturdy as Rogues and have significant burst potential through Channel Smite. They can't replace a Fighter or a Champion, but they can decently stand alongside them.
Channel Smite is bad. For 2 actions you can make an attack and a Harm/Heal, and the Harm/Heal deals half damage on a successful save, so you don't gain any damage by using Channel Smite, you actually lose damage.
And Rogues may not be much more sturdy, but they deal way more damage.I'm pretty sure I can build a Wizard who competes with a Warpriest in terms of melee damage and sturdiness.
Honestly Warpriests seem to work best with harming font unless your campaign is undead-focused. Strike, Harm, Shield seems to be a decently good routine in combat.
Uh... where do you get the idea that Channel Smite allows for a save? You don't actually cast the expended spell, you just add its damage to the hit.
I think the idea is that a clerics high miss chance is the reason why channel smite damage is lower than strike and single-action harm, even with the save.
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Maybe it's helpful to think of a Warpriest as being on the same level of power as a Rogue, except instead of skills for utility, they get spells.
Because yes, in a game w/ short buffs, and useful lulls which make Heroism expire, a PC having to buff most battles just to contend w/ a buff-less martial displays an obvious deficit. You kind of have to make your Warpriest about more than the pure numbers.
What can you contribute that a martial can't?
Maybe the whole Haste/True Strike-Zeal/Heroism path is the issue! Maybe Warpriests should find their own (obscure) lane? Hmm...
Somebody coming in unaware (or thinking of PF1 Warpriests) may easily be misled, unfortunately. But feats like Cast Down can "trip" (unless they crit succeed) and some of the damage types (esp. Good) can trigger Weaknesses. While a Rogue might move/strike/move to keep safe, the Warpriest might Heal/strike or move in and out every other round w/ shield or Shield.
(And I'm of the opinion that the party likely needs a dedicated healer who is NOT this PC.)
Uh... where do you get the idea that Channel Smite allows for a save? You don't actually cast the expended spell, you just add its damage to the hit.I think the idea is that a clerics high miss chance is the reason why channel smite damage is lower than single-action harm, even with the save.
Yep yep - my brain kept ignoring the implied "As an alternative" involved in the scenario presented.
It's a good point, and the only real counter I can think of is in theory, a crit powered by True Strike could make it possibly competitive.
A fun fact is that Warpriest is pretty much better than Cloistered from lvl 1-6 and 11-14 considering what each get.
But anyway, the idea of Channel Smite over just making an strike + harm is making harm target AC.
AC is easier to manipulate over something like Fortitude, flatfooted that is super common give -2 circumstance penalty to AC and attack rolls (and spell attack rolls) can be buffed unlike Spell DC.
A fun fact is that Warpriest is pretty much better than Cloistered from lvl 1-6 and 11-14 considering what each get.
Yes, building a Warpriest like a Cloistered Cleric gives you better defenses at low level for worst spellcasting at high level. It's, in my opinion, the best Warpriest build.
But anyway, the idea of Channel Smite over just making an strike + harm is making harm target AC.
AC is easier to manipulate over something like Fortitude, flatfooted that is super common give -2 circumstance penalty to AC and attack rolls (and spell attack rolls) can be buffed unlike Spell DC.
But you lose the half damage on successful save and the ability to change your mind (if you kill the monster with your Strike). It will rarely be really better than Strike Harm.
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Based upon feedback, I'm doing away with the star rating system for accessibility. This meant I had to redo the weapon ratings, and came up with this series. Does anyone see anything they'd challenge about this?
- Bastard swords, guisarmes, temple swords, and khopeshes are the best weapons a warpriest can get, combining strong damage and powerful traits.
-Longswords, greatswords, battleaxes, greataxes, spears, ranseurs, tridents, maces, warhammers, battleaxes, greataxes, morningstars, and nine-ringed swords are powerful options, and the standard you should be aiming for in a weapon.
-Flails, war flails, scythes, bladed scarves, sickles, kukri are good choices, trading off a little damage for powerful tactical options.
-Katars, rapiers, katana, machetes, club, hatchets, light hammers, fists, shortswords, daggers, war flails, light maces, sawtooth sabers, mambeles, naginata, spiked chains, and glaives are middle of the road choices. Nothing spectacular, but they’ll do the job.
-Falchions, greatclubs, staves, polytools, and scimitars are underwhelming but adequate weapons.
-Whips, shield bosses, longbows and shortbows are not recommended for Warpriests but can be functional.
-War razors, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, light picks, main-gauches, star knives, darts, shuriken, javelins, bolas, and fighting fans are weak enough that they can’t be redeemed as weapons by any other qualities of the deity, and should be avoided.
-Crossbows, heavy crossbows, and slings suck.
Missing the mighty warhammer of Torag somewhere, but sounds accurate otherwise.
Nothing beats rolling a crit and just being able to say "Stop! Hammer time!" ;)
Ah. Warhammers (and maces) are very worthily in the second tier.
Best possible damage and a very respectable trait. Interestingly, there's no deity with a maul as a favoured weapon.
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A fun fact is that Warpriest is pretty much better than Cloistered from lvl 1-6 and 11-14 considering what each get.Yes, building a Warpriest like a Cloistered Cleric gives you better defenses at low level for worst spellcasting at high level. It's, in my opinion, the best Warpriest build.
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If retraining is a thing in the campaign (ie, enough downtime) then why chose ? :-) My PFS character was a "war priest" (although not really at all martially oriented) at low levels and retrained into Cloistered (and, ironically, MORE martial oriented) at level 6 (it essentially takes a level to retrain in PFS)
Longbows and Shorbows are in the first group. This is one of the most solid option for a Warpriest.
Crossbows are not very powerful but for a War Cloistered, it's nice. They should be with whips and such in the not very good category but can have a use.
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You seem to rate trip really high as a weapon trait - I didn't think a war cleric would really be looking to trip enemies.
You can actually get Legendary Athletics, and trip is a solid debuff. In any party that likes Flat Footed (most), its probably better than making an Expert Strike if you want to go that route.
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Longbows and Shorbows are in the first group. This is one of the most solid option for a Warpriest.
Crossbows are not very powerful but for a War Cloistered, it's nice. They should be with whips and such in the not very good category but can have a use.
Here's the thing about bows for Warpriests: while you can use a bow prefectly fine as a Warpriest, you're better off just being a Cloistered Cleric at that point instead.
Warpriests don't try to keep up with Cloistered Clerics as control casters because you're behind for half the game, and all your abilities push you in another direction anyway.
But when it comes to archery, what does a Cloistered Cleric lose out on compared to a Warpriest? Your weapon accuracy is behind for four levels. Otherwise, your ability to invest in Dexterity and your ability to buff yourself are just as good as a Warpriest's. And, you're a better caster for half the game as well. Also, the Warpriest's armour advantage is mostly negated by the investment into Dexterity, and the fact that you're staying away from the frontlines. Hell, longbows get worse when you're close.
Here's the thing about bows for Warpriests: while you can use a bow prefectly fine as a Warpriest, you're better off just being a Cloistered Cleric at that point instead.Longbows and Shorbows are in the first group. This is one of the most solid option for a Warpriest.
Crossbows are not very powerful but for a War Cloistered, it's nice. They should be with whips and such in the not very good category but can have a use.
This sentence is also valid for melee Warpriests. Warpriests are just front loaded Cloistered that get worse at high level. If you want to play up to level 20, just play a Cloistered Cleric. But if you want to play only at low levels, then you can play a Warpriest (and it's actually quite good if you don't expect to get over level 10). And that's also valid for archers: Better armor and better proficiencies as Warpriest than Cloistered. And archer Warpriests are in my opinion way better than melee Warpriests as range gishes are more efficient than melee ones (actually, I don't think melee gishes from a caster class are anywhere close to functional besides Wild Druids).
I ran into another interesting suggestion.
How we received a definite ruling on whether staves work while shifted?
Because a Staff of Divination to spam true strike is spectacular for Warpriests.
Staves work while shifted, but you need to wield them. So, it may be complicated to use them while having both your hands full.
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Staves work while shifted, but you need to wield them. So, it may be complicated to use them while having both your hands full.
I think he means, since staves are weapons, a Shifting rune might make a Staff usable magically while acting like a Battleaxe.