Forbid action (move) - they can't run away.
Murderous command
Deja vu
Those have very limited durations of course.
Shadow trap, entangle or any of a number of spells stop enemies running away for longer.
Confusion (via any of several spells or effects), then have the person they're doomed to fight attack them.
I think there's a spell or two for setting up duels specifically, I'll try to find them when I've got a mo.
That's usually the way TTRPG fights go, anyway.
If your opponent is mindless, stupid, or defeated too quickly to retreat, yes. Beyond that, I feel like most situations are just the opposite. Bandits on the road don't fight to the death. Goblins and wargs certainly don't want to die. Simple beasts like bears or whatever definitely don't.
I think the easiest way to pull this off would be to convince both sides that the other side won't stop until someone's dead. Magic would help, but it's not really needed. Just a good Bluff or Intimidate.
My experience of TTRPGs is the opposite. Animals that would normally run away when you raise your arms and make funny noises at or brandish a torch in front of fight to death in in just about every RPG I ever played...
I guess that's just yet another aspect of gamemastering that's lacking in most system's books.
How NPC's behave is pretty basic stuff, but it's not usually spelled out very clearly. The idea that a pack of wolves or a roc or a dinosaur would fight to the death (or even fight in the most efficient, aggressive way) is absurd.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Magic missile makes the target fight to the death, provided you cast it on someone fighting you and it kills them.
My experience of TTRPGs is the opposite. Animals that would normally run away when you raise your arms and make funny noises at or brandish a torch in front of fight to death in in just about every RPG I ever played...I guess that's just yet another aspect of gamemastering that's lacking in most system's books.
How NPC's behave is pretty basic stuff, but it's not usually spelled out very clearly. The idea that a pack of wolves or a roc or a dinosaur would fight to the death (or even fight in the most efficient, aggressive way) is absurd.
Outside of special abilities/effects and general stuff like Diplomacy, NPC behavior isn't really a problem the system is intended to solve, so it's lacking in the way the system is lacking recipes for parsnip pie.
Outside of special abilities/effects and general stuff like Diplomacy, NPC behavior isn't really a problem the system is intended to solve...
Alright, not the system then. The game. Or whatever you want to call it.
It's kind of mind-blowing how little most games actually offer in terms of how to actually run a session. Not stats on traps, not building NPC stat blocks or treasure hordes or garbage Random Encounter/Weather/whatever tables, but actually running the game. Building encounters, adventures, campaigns and settings. Running combats, potraying NPC's. That stuff. The hard stuff. The stuff that everyone needs to know and so many people eff up until their games are a big, confusing frustrating mess.I've got a theory about gate-keeping and gamemastering, but...okay. I've ranted enough here, I think.
At first glance, I'd say your best bet to making someone refuse to retreat would be Intimidate or the Suggestion spell.
The idea that a pack of wolves or a roc or a dinosaur would fight to the death (or even fight in the most efficient, aggressive way) is absurd.
A pack of wolves that would attack armed humans in the first place isn't realistic.
In my experience, sensible enemies with a strong sense of self-preservation make for unsatisfying fights. After a round or two they realise they're a routine CR-appropriate challenge and surrender or flee. Then the PCs have to kill enemies who aren't fighting back, or let them go.
A pack of wolves that would attack armed humans in the first place isn't realistic.
Okay, fair point. But, I mean, I assume we have to take *some* creative license, somewhere.
I've read about wolves feeding off soldier's corpses until they didn't fear people and recognized them as a food source. And about a town that was literally besieged by hundreds of wolves during an especially harsh winter.A wolf that's bold enough to attack humans is a pretty standard fantasy staple, thanks to Tolkien.
A wolf that disregards it's own well-being is more of a stretch. Just like a flying, invisible fire-breathing wolf is a bigger stretch than that.
After a round or two they realise they're a routine CR-appropriate challenge and surrender or flee. Then the PCs have to kill enemies who aren't fighting back, or let them go.
Surrender is always messy, yeah. But an encounter isn't over when every potential enemy combatant is dead. It's over when the question the encounter asks has been answered. If the question is "can the party rescue the prisoners from the goblins?" and the PC's wipe out whatever percentage of the goblins you've decided is their breaking point, then the answer is "yes" and you end the encounter. You say "the goblins cast down their weapons and run screaming into the forest. Some of you spend the next few hours hunting your foe, while others tend to the prisoners..." --or whatever. Whether the goblins surrender, flee or fight to the death, the comes a point where the encounter is obviously done,the threat is overcome, and initiative order becomes just so much busy work and tedium.
Zombies fight to the death. Brainwashed cultists with terrible, sadistic masters fight to the death. Maybe a devil fights to the death when facing a paladin who's thwarted it's decades-long scheme.
And hey, a lot of enemies may go from "still in the fight" to "totally dead" before they have a chance to run away.
But if everything acts exactly the same as everything else, that just feels flat. And it doesn't really give you much room to show your player's decisions impact the world.
...sure. I don't really see what that's got to do with it, though.
Not everyone who'd ever consider engaging in physical combat would want to fight to their very last breath. Most people/creatures/etc would not. That's my point.
Besides, risk or not, it happens. Obviously. And it's not always about what's intelligent or risk-free. Once moral is low enough, a tactical retreat turns into a full-on blind flight and rout.
And then there's the huge assortment of potential opponents in fantasy that don't think in terms of military strategy at all.
A grizzly bear, for example, run like an actual bear, is not going to close in so it can't be flanked and has the high ground and go after the PC who has abilities that target it's Will save. It's going to...delay it's turn and see what they do. Maybe try to Intimidate them. If they're really determined to avoid all attempts at seeming non-threatening, at using Intimidate themselves, or even just tossing some food at it, it'll charge. But if it's met with stiff resistance, especially ranged and reach weapons or effects it doesn't understand, it'll probably pause shortly after the assault has begun to re-assess the situation. And it'll definitely hightail it out of there if dropped to 50% hp or less. Or maybe just 70%, if it can't get to them. Or it'll fight to the death, if it's cubs are in danger.
Just...you know. Like a real animal.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
morale used to be a mechanic in the game. Any time something scary happened (25% of the creatures were dead, the leader was killed, etc.) the remaining creatures had to make a morale check that was modified by the situation.
I think a lot of DM's didn't bother using the morale system because it wasn't "as much fun" as just having the monsters fight to the death. Plus, it was additional book keeping for the DM. Besides, it's annoying when the group gets jumped by 8 goblins who then start fleeing as soon as a few of them get killed.
These are the Morale rules from AD&D for those who are interested.
Morale checks are used to determine the amount of will to fight in
non-leader NPCs, and can be applied both to henchmen and hirelings of
character types and groups of intelligent opponent monsters (see also
Loyalty of Henchmen & Hirelings, Obedience and Morale). Base unmodified morale score is 50%.
Morale Checks Made When
Faced by obviously superior force___________check each round
25% of party eliminated or slain____________check at +5%
Leader unconscious__________________________check at +10%
50%+ of party** eliminated or slain_________check at +15%
Leader slain or deserts_____________________check at +30%
Other Morale Check Modifiers
Each enemy deserting__________________________________-5%
Each enemy slain_____________________________________-10%
Inflicting casualties without receiving any__________-20%
Each friend killed___________________________________+10%
Taking casualties without inflicting any_____________+10%
Each friend deserting________________________________+15%
Outnumbered & outclassed by 3 or more to 1___________+20%
MORALE SCORES
Henchmen or Associated Creatures:
For each creature take the base morale (loyalty) score and cast percentile dice. Adjust the score for penalties and bonuses, and if the adjusted score is equal to or less than the loyalty score, morale is good. If the number exceeds the loyalty score, the creature will react according to the morale failure table below.
Monsters, Intelligent:
Each monster has a base morale of 50%, +5%/hit die above 1, + 1 %/hit
point above any hit dice. If a morale check is required, scoring and
reaction are as stated above for henchmen et al.
MORALE FAILURE
1% to 15% fall back, fighting
16% to 30% disengage-retreat
31% to 50% flee in panic
51 % or greater surrender
The difference between the maximum score needed to retain morale and
the number actually rolled, as adjusted, is the % of morale failure.
Outside of special abilities/effects and general stuff like Diplomacy, NPC behavior isn't really a problem the system is intended to solve...Alright, not the system then. The game. Or whatever you want to call it.
It's kind of mind-blowing how little most games actually offer in terms of how to actually run a session. Not stats on traps, not building NPC stat blocks or treasure hordes or garbage Random Encounter/Weather/whatever tables, but actually running the game. Building encounters, adventures, campaigns and settings. Running combats, potraying NPC's. That stuff. The hard stuff. The stuff that everyone needs to know and so many people eff up until their games are a big, confusing frustrating mess.I've got a theory about gate-keeping and gamemastering, but...okay. I've ranted enough here, I think.
That sounds like a fun discussion--how to get more people to be able to gamemaster (open the gate) without diluting the experience.
The moral rules were cumbersome and inflexible. Cowardly goblins, hungry griffons and bloodthirsty demons are not going to behave the same way.
I just slap a number on a condition. "When the giant spider loses half of it's hp, it retreats back into its web" or "when the goblins are down to 25% of their starting numbers, they flee".
And again: NOT saying that retreat is always viable. I'm saying that it's something enemies will sometimes do, viable or not.
The fact that retreat is mechanically a terrible option (especially for players) is an issue with the system. Rules for an actual chase scene are much better than "you take the withdraw action. Your enemy charges..."
And as for actual gamemastering, the Angry GM has a treasure trove of articles, and even boiled GM'ing down to three steps for beginnings. That's whe we need to start; narrative structure and pacing, not "here's the Monster Manual XXXIV".
I have been searching without any luck for a mechanic that would compel a character to fight someone to the death. Is there a mechanic for this?
The simplest mechanic is trapping them with no way out. Be it a cull-de-sac, being surrounded, or spells to keep them im place. The Pit spell line is great until dim door or teleport comes online.
/cevah
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There is mechanics for running away, whether you like them or not is another issue. The mechanic is called the chase scene.
If you are trying to prevent an opponent from escaping from a combat, then you want to know how they are able to escape, and plan ways to prevent that. Strategize, use your wits and imagination, this doesn't need to be the purview of a rules mechanic.
Players really hate it when enemies get away. This seems to be pretty universal. Most players will chase their enemies relentlessly and feel like they lost, even when they massacred the enemy with little injury to themselves, if one goblin escaped. This is aggravated by bad GMs who only reward xp for the goblins that were killed and not for the escaped ones.
...even if only one Hag escapes doesn't that mean the job isn't finished?
...While it isn't a threat to the party, it is still a threat to the commoners
I think this is a significant contributor.
There are a lot of adventures, missions, modules, or whatever where this is the goal.
The job isn't done if the problem isn't dead in these cases.
And in those cases, the encounter isn't over until the foe is slain. Because, in those encounters, the question isn't "can the party continue traveling safely?" or whatever, but more something like "can they stop the monster from terrorizing the countryside?"
There is mechanics for running away, whether you like them or not is another issue. The mechanic is called the chase scene...
Players really hate it when enemies get away. This seems to be pretty universal...
This is aggravated by bad GMs who only reward xp for the goblins that were killed and not for the escaped ones.
I haven't taken a look at Paizo's take on the chase scene, but I had to do just this when the PC's decided to high-tail it out of there. Put some distance between you and the foe, then hide/evade/cover your tracks/etc.
I have never once in 17 years had a party who felt like they lost when the enemy broke. Usually because I say something like "...the rest of your enemy throws down their weapons and runs screaming into the forest. Victory is yours."
I think some issues are just assumptions and trends that become so ingrained as to be considered fact. Not at my tablem I want to be able to tell any and every sort of story. Gritty, whimsical, grim, fantastical, light, dark--every shade of every spectrum.
If people get used to a certain trope or concept and struggle to step outside that perspective, that's either a failing on their part, their GM's, or just a somewhat unfortunate outcome that may or may not have consequences. If all you play is Pathfinder, you'll probably be more or less okay. Try to roll and my table and you might get a little culture shock.