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It has been brought to my attention that the use of “plus” in damage is not inclusive to the meaning:
“Definition of plus. (Entry 1 of 4) 1 : algebraically positive. 2 : having, receiving, or being in addition to what is anticipated.”
In this case it’s in reference to crocodile damage and the addition of “plus Grab”.
I was listening to Roll for Combat and Stephen (GM) had the crocodile move up to the target, bite, and then do a death roll that requires grab (which was described as part of the bite). Vanessa informed him that the death roll could not be performed because the grab is an action. Normally I would agree, but the grab is listed as part of the damage as such:
“Melee jaws +10, Damage 1d10+4 piercing plus Grab”
The plus indicates that the grab is an additional part of the damage, which with a crocodile makes since as once they latch on they don’t let go if they can help it.
In addition the Grab action states:
“Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action. Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.
Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.”
The requirement to perform the grab action is either it is part of the monster’s damage descriptor or the monster takes the grab action specifically. The effect of either one is that the target is immediately grabbed.
Stephen says he has spoken to someone here at Paizo about it and it is supposed to be an action that is taken, but per the requirements, and the meaning of “plus”, Grab is a free action as part of the damage.
If it is meant to be a separate action then it needs to be removed from the damage descriptor, as do several other cases throughout the Bestiary as “plus Grab” clearly indicates under the requirements for Grab that the condition has been met and no separate action needs to be taken.
What is the official Paizo stance on this?
I agree. If it is any different than being an automatic grab as part of a successful damage attack that includes 'plus grab' in the descriptor then Paizo should clarify or change it. I've been assuming it happens as part of the attack for awhile now.
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The Grab entry in the Bestiary (page 343) clearly indicates that it is an action to use. Compare this to Improved Grab, which is a free action.
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The grab is an action that the crocodile have to take after a creature do damage with that specific attack that have the "plus grab".
The improved grab that is the free action one.
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I agree. If it is any different than being an automatic grab as part of a successful damage attack that includes 'plus grab' in the descriptor then Paizo should clarify or change it. I've been assuming it happens as part of the attack for awhile now.
It does not. That is what Improved Grab does. And to be honest I'm not sure how this is confusing if you read the respective ability entries. A strike with Plus grab next to damage is pretty clearly "a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry." If you look up what Grab does, it tells you that it takes an action.
I mean, I guess I can see how if you try to read the rules as a legal document rather than a rulebook for a game it can be confusing, but that's an unusual approach.
I have to agree that reading both effects makes it very clear that Grab takes an action.
Grab [one-action]
Requirements The monster’s last action was a success with a Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or it has a creature grabbed using this action.
Effect The monster automatically Grabs the target until the end of the monster’s next turn. The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.
Using Grab extends the duration of the monster’s Grab until the end of its next turn for all creatures grabbed by it. A grabbed creature can use the Escape action to get out of the grab, and the Grab ends for a grabbed creatures if the monster moves away from it.
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I see where I am getting confused, but still feel the wording in the damage write-up could be written better. A simple inclusion of "may take an available action to" or write the ability in. Other monsters such as the great white shark list abilities gained from successful strikes:
"Savage - Single Action - Requirement: The shark hit with a jaws Strike on its most recent action this turn. Effect The creature the shark hit takes 1d12 slashing damage."
Just give it a fancy name or something like this:
Quick Grab - Single Action - Requirement: The crocodile hit with a jaws Strike on its most recent action. The crocodile grabs the target.
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I see where I am getting confused, but still feel the wording in the damage write-up could be written better. A simple inclusion of "may take an available action to" or write the ability in. Other monsters such as the great white shark list abilities gained from successful strikes:
"Savage - Single Action - Requirement: The shark hit with a jaws Strike on its most recent action this turn. Effect The creature the shark hit takes 1d12 slashing damage."
Just give it a fancy name or something like this:
Quick Grab - Single Action - Requirement: The crocodile hit with a jaws Strike on its most recent action. The crocodile grabs the target.
But Grab is one of the most common monster abilities in the game. That would take up so much page space across a bestiary.
Ah, right. My bad, I was thinking of Improved Grab in my head when I replied I think. So many rules, not enough time...
learn it once and it makes sense from then on
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I can see where the OP is coming from. Once you familiarize yourself with the rule it's easy enough, but the text "1d10+4 piercing plus Grab" does, on its face, kinda make it sound like the Grab is part of the Strike action itself.
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It would, however, be clearer if the monster entries had an action icon in front of Grab. That is, instead of this:
Action: Jaws +8 (1d10+4 plus Grab)
GrabWe'd have
Action: Jaws +8 (1d10+4 plus Grab)
Action: Grab
This is actually pretty good, though could perhaps be consolidated a little further into:
Action: Jaws +8 (1d10+4 plus [action-symbol] Grab)
It saves a line, but would it be too confusing?
The problem I have is The SRD Archives of Nethys doesn't have "damage plus grab" linked to the general grab ability. I own the Bestiary cards, but not the book. I couldn't afford both. I wanted to be able to use the great art on the cards and have the reference material in an easy, quick to pull out format.
There are NO general monster ability cards in the deck, nor a glossary etc. How am I supposed to make use of this accessory if all the information isn't there in the individual entry?
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Well, Archives of Nethys has a Abilities section. It's at the top when you click 'Monsters', and it'd be nice if all monsters linked to it, but it's hardly unusable on its own.
I can't comment on the cards, not possessing them, but the information is available on AoN, if less convenient than would be ideal.
The problem I have is The SRD Archives of Nethys doesn't have "damage plus grab" linked to the general grab ability. I own the Bestiary cards, but not the book. I couldn't afford both. I wanted to be able to use the great art on the cards and have the reference material in an easy, quick to pull out format.
There are NO general monster ability cards in the deck, nor a glossary etc. How am I supposed to make use of this accessory if all the information isn't there in the individual entry?
Use this site for monster statblocks. It is generally way better.
https://pf2.easytool.es/index.php?id=3584&name=crocodile