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I really don't like point buy for a number of reasons and would prefer to use dice rolling but I'm aware of the problems. So I've been mucking around with various options and I think I have one I'm fairly happy with but I'd like to get some other opinions on it. Please respond based on . . .
1) Do you think its over/underpowered?
2) Would you be willing to play a game with it
Its the standard roll 6 stats using 4d6 drop lowest however there are 2 caveats.
1) If your total final roll is below 8 (e.g. 6, 1, 2, 1) you reroll that score (number of times doesn't matter but final value must be 8+).
2) You can only have 1 stat of 18 if you get two you can transfer 2 points from one to your lowest stat until you have only 1 18.
For example if your final stats were 8, 12, 13, 15, 18, 18 you would need to transfer points to get 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18. This is pre-racial mods.
On 4d6 keep 3, a roll of (6, 1, 2, 1) actually totals 9.
It's not substantially different from the basic 4d6 keep 3, and I've played workable games with more generous and games with less generous stat generation methods. It should be fine.
For "2) You can only have 1 stat of 18 if you get two you can transfer 2 points from one to your lowest stat until you have only 1 18.", do you reroll less than 8's before or after you redistribute multiple 18's?
IMO, a little overpowered but not too bad.
I would play it if you insisted, but it would not be my preferred choice. It doesn't solve the biggest possible problem with rolling, Superman and his sidekick.
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Definitely not underpowered.
Not overpowered any more than most ways of rolling stats.
It doesn't solve the biggest possible problem with rolling, Superman and his sidekick.
The best solution I've seen for this is to have everyone roll up a group of stats and then everyone can choose which group they want to use. (Any group can be used multiple times).
The real problem with random rolls is not the extremes it is when you are average. I had one character in that rolled 8, 9, 10, 10, 12, and 12 for stats. While a character like this does not cause problems for the GM, it does lead to frustrated payers. Stats like that make it incredibly difficult to build an effective character.
Another significant problem is when there is a huge difference in the stats between players. If all the players at the table have good stats the GM can adjust the game to compensate. But when one player has extremely good stats and another player has low stats it is impossible to balance the game. Anything strong enough to challenge the stronger character is going to overwhelm the weaker character.
Just limiting the number of 18s on a character is not really that important. What is more important to avoid extremely good stats. A character with 2 18s and the rest of the stats being low or moderate is less of a problem than a character with 16 in every stat.
The point buy system was designed to curb all of these problems. If you convert your method into a point buy you end up with a range from -12 (All 8) to 82 (1 18 & 5 17). That is over a 90 point spread. While the chances of someone rolling that extreme are fairly small there will still often be a large gap between characters.
If you want to roll for stats my suggestion would be to still use the point buy system as a guideline. Decide on a point buy range. I would suggest picking a point buy value as per the normal guidelines and going 5 points above and below it. So if you were going to use a 25pt buy you could be anywhere between 20-30 points. Have the characters roll their stats with whatever method you choose. If they go over the point maximum they have to reduce something. If they are under the minimum they get to reroll a low stat until they are at the minimum.
The best solution I've seen for this is to have everyone roll up a group of stats and then everyone can choose which group they want to use. (Any group can be used multiple times).It doesn't solve the biggest possible problem with rolling, Superman and his sidekick.
I usually call this “community rolling“. It also lets the GM roll a set of stats if he wants, which is nice. The only downside is you need to store the rolls, incase you need to replace a character.
When someone rolls 4 dice all 3 or lower, use all 4 dice.
If someone rolls 4 6s, a second time, the GM rerolls.
If you are creating a table of mutants, roll 8D20s for abilities. Eliminate 2 for game balance. 2 20s count as a mutation. 2 1s(after 2 lows have been eliminated) count as a defect and they get an extra mutation.
So basically you increase the floor a bit (always 8+), while you also decrease the ceiling (only one 18). Makes it less random, hence closer to point buy.
As a player, I would prefer the original. A stat of 3 to 7 is actually an interesting challenge, so no reason to smooth it away. Since this is not point buy, I can't use it to increase another score. The two 18s are very unlikely to happen - but if they appear, it would be a miserable feeling to lose them at the same moment as I gain them.
Actually, using these modifications, a player would be better off with an 18 and a 17 than with two 18s - the former combination is way more likely to happen.
1) Do you think its over/underpowered?
Power levels are per definition relative, so compared to what? In any case, when it comes to rolling for stats, at best you can talk about average power, which is pretty much useless. Once could make statement that it increases the average ability score total, but that knowledge doesn't really help the player with stats worse than an NPC array, does it?
2) Would you be willing to play a game with it
No. At least, I wouldn't like it.
Because it fixes absolutely none of the problems with rolled ability scores. Neither the in-party imbalance, or the possibility of being unable to play the character you want to play, or the issue of favouring the classes already strongest.The best solution I've seen for this is to have everyone roll up a group of stats and then everyone can choose which group they want to use. (Any group can be used multiple times).
The best solution I've seen for this is to no use a system that only exists so that people who can't accept the fact that it's not the 70's or 80's anymore, and everyone else has moved away from outdated crap that's purely detrimental to having fun games, don't have their nostalgia ruined.
I used to roll up the monsters. The goblin with the highest stats was promoted to team leader. Under this system, I would assume monsters are only allowed one max and or one minimum score too.
The people on the boards are probably not representative of the average player base. Most of my tables seem to prefer some form of rolling for stats. And I’m generally cool with whatever. Bad rolls just means I need to min max a little more.
When I GM myself, I always use community rolling though. It’s just way more fun.
Okay... if you want to avoid the blatant minmaxing and sameyness of point-buy, give players vague control of their prime/dump stats, but not total.
For instance, instead of rolling 4d6k1 six times and assigning to preference, try each ability score starting with 3d6 and each player gets 9d6 to assign as they please-- to roll their scores in order.
So Billy Bloodrager might roll
STR 6d6 (keep 3 as always)
DEX 4d6
CON 5d6
INT 3d6
WIS 3d6
CHA 6d6
while his sister Molly Magus might roll
STR 4d6
DEX 5d6
CON 5d6
INT 6d6
WIS 4d6
CHA 3d6
Now.
If you want to control for the possibility of miserable characters in random chargen, what you need to do is set an artificially higher floor for ability scores-- specifically, a much higher floor for a character's core abilities, and only a modestly higher floor for their dump stats.
Like you could implement a brutally low point-buy, something way lower than you want to run-- like 10 or 12-- to set the bare minimum for rolled ability scores, and then roll them using the above method or the standard method or any other rolling method you prefer. Roll higher than the point buy? Keep the roll. Roll lower? Keep the point buy.
Any random system where players don't have access to the same pool of results is going to have the potential for massive disparities in ability scores.
If you want to feel better about running a higher-powered game, let me tell you about how I learned to play D&D. AD&D, in specific, First Edition. Unearthed Arcana had some nutso rolling methods, but nothing like this.
5d6 keep 3, six times in order. Reroll 1s. And 2s.
But if you roll Yahtzee, your score is 18 + face value: 19-24.
All of the DM's characters had multiple Yahtzees. Us mere mortals who had to roll at the table... had a more statistically likely number.
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Okay... if you want to avoid the blatant minmaxing and sameyness of point-buy, give players vague control of their prime/dump stats, but not total.
For instance, instead of rolling 4d6k1 six times and assigning to preference, try each ability score starting with 3d6 and each player gets 9d6 to assign as they please-- to roll their scores in order.
So Billy Bloodrager might roll
STR 6d6 (keep 3 as always)
DEX 4d6
CON 5d6
INT 3d6
WIS 3d6
CHA 6d6while his sister Molly Magus might roll
STR 4d6
DEX 5d6
CON 5d6
INT 6d6
WIS 4d6
CHA 3d6Now.
If you want to control for the possibility of miserable characters in random chargen, what you need to do is set an artificially higher floor for ability scores-- specifically, a much higher floor for a character's core abilities, and only a modestly higher floor for their dump stats.
Like you could implement a brutally low point-buy, something way lower than you want to run-- like 10 or 12-- to set the bare minimum for rolled ability scores, and then roll them using the above method or the standard method or any other rolling method you prefer. Roll higher than the point buy? Keep the roll. Roll lower? Keep the point buy.
Any random system where players don't have access to the same pool of results is going to have the potential for massive disparities in ability scores.
If you want to feel better about running a higher-powered game, let me tell you about how I learned to play D&D. AD&D, in specific, First Edition. Unearthed Arcana had some nutso rolling methods, but nothing like this.
5d6 keep 3, six times in order. Reroll 1s. And 2s.
But if you roll Yahtzee, your score is 18 + face value: 19-24.
All of the DM's characters had multiple Yahtzees. Us mere mortals who had to roll at the table... had a more statistically likely number.
Interesting method i assume the extra die need to be assigned before rolling you cant just add them later if you roll low or want to bump up some stats at the end.
Honestly I'm personally not to bothered by bad scores from rolling. To me it can be used to give a character personalities e.g . Goury from slayers not that bright but an incredible swordsman and equally incredibly nice guy. What bugs me is the deliebrate min-max dump stat because "I only need X". If you roll it or want to rokeplay a mage with weak con adventuring for a cure to their disease go right ahead. If you want to play a mage with weak str because you don't need it that bugs me. Plus as i said playing a MAD class with low or standard point buy.
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I played a short campaign where we all wanted one 18.
One 18, and roll 4D6 drop the lowest for the other 5 remaining stats. It wasn't broken
Guess most people do prefer point buy. I feel it just encohrages either average characters with nothing memorable or dump stats and good luck playing a mad class.
If your characters are only memorable because of their stats I get the feeling that your play style and my play style are radically different from each other.
Interesting method i assume the extra die need to be assigned before rolling you cant just add them later if you roll low or want to bump up...
Yeah, exactly. I can't find a reference right now, but I was pretty sure it was one of the optional methods in AD&D-- either the 1e Unearthed Arcana, the 2e Player's Handbook, or Player's Option: Skills & Powers.
But I am apparently mistaken.
On the other hand, it also wouldn't break anything if you also gave players, say, 3d6 or 4d6 they could add after the fact. You'd just get higher average scores with a little less variation... like a higher point-buy.
I'm currently working on a d20-based game and... I don't like rolling, but I'm trying to work out a number of different ability generation and ability increase mechanics to see what I like best. And to include in the rulebook as options for DMs who disagree with me.
I played a short campaign where we all wanted one 18.
One 18, and roll 4D6 drop the lowest for the other 5 remaining stats. It wasn't broken
Yeah. Hard for a rule to be broken when everyone at the table is using it-- it's only the extremes of dumb luck you have to worry about, and the free 18 reduces the amount of dumb luck in play.
Rolemaster gives everyone a free 90 in the ability of their choice.
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Guess most people do prefer point buy. I feel it just encohrages either average characters with nothing memorable or dump stats and good luck playing a mad class.If your characters are only memorable because of their stats I get the feeling that your play style and my play style are radically different from each other.
Its not the only thing but it can inspire roleplay my experience with point buy is quite a lot of "You're a mage you don't need str just drop that to 7. You're a fighter dump int." no roleplaying there just you don't have enough points for at least average and a few outliers so dump a stat.
Yeah, exactly. I can't find a reference right now, but I was pretty sure it was one of the optional methods in AD&D-- either the 1e Unearthed Arcana, the 2e Player's Handbook, or Player's Option: Skills & Powers.
But I am apparently mistaken.
Right first time, it was in the first Unearthed Arcana.
It's very unreliable and I don't recommend it as a system though.
Rolemaster gives everyone a free 90 in the ability of their choice.
Mind you, that's more like a 14 in PF.
Definitely not underpowered.
Not overpowered any more than most ways of rolling stats.The best solution I've seen for this is to have everyone roll up a group of stats and then everyone can choose which group they want to use. (Any group can be used multiple times).It doesn't solve the biggest possible problem with rolling, Superman and his sidekick.
Ive had a number of gms who had you roll a 6X6 grid and you could go across, down, or corner to corner
It's very unreliable and I don't recommend it as a system though.
I never used it. When I started playing AD&D with more normal groups, it was always best of 4d6, six times to taste. When I switched to 3.0, I switched to point buy and never (seriously) looked back.
I understand and sympathize with the point that point-buy characters are all samey and inorganic. I just hate using dice for something that's going to define my character for his entire career, hence my interest in hybrid systems.
Rolemaster gives everyone a free 90 in the ability of their choice.
Mind you, that's more like a 14 in PF.
90 is absolutely the equivalent of an 18. It's just that Rolemaster, like d20/PF, draws a difference between "1st level max" and "absolute max".
Tweaking Ability Score Increases is also definitely on my TO-DO list. Pondering a number of issues, including 4e/Conan style versus Dragon Fist style, possible random elements, and making ancestry a factor.
So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?
Maybe search for a PF-compatible "lifepath" system?
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So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?Maybe search for a PF-compatible "lifepath" system?
Hmmm . ..
EDIT 1
In looking up lifepath's (with little luck they mostly seem to be in the systems books they want you to buy) I've seen a few people advocating a 32/34 point buy option for a decent stat spread.
I've also seen roll 4d6 (reroll 1's option) drop the lowest and then all the players take the best roll which would eliminate any "they have better stats than me". It'd also mean more stat arrays increasing the odds of good rolls which I'm sure is a drawback for some.
I have actually been playing in a game with a very similar ruling. At our table we use 4d6 drop lowest, with a 3 caveats...
1) reroll all 1’s.
2) reroll all 4 dice once if final result is less than 8 (basically if you rolled all 2s or a 3 and 3 2s)
3) If your rolls are too good, the DM may ask you to reroll (I rolled an 18, 3 17s, a 15, and a 13 for one character, had to reroll)
It does unfortunately still leave the possibility for the dreaded average hero in a party of supermen as well as the possibility of completely unworkable stats for certain builds... but as is the nature of rolled stats. For our group though, this is alright... most of the players in our group don’t like point buy, all of our DMs hate point buy, and many of us actually enjoy the more random nature of rolled stats. Although for a few of our campaigns we have been using a stat array of 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 for simplicity sake and to even out scores... but arrays are a poor substitute for dice rolls... personally I find myself agonizing more over where to place what value with an array than with rolls.
As for the issue of dump stats and lack of RP... that will exist with any system... but it certainly does happen way more with point buy than anything... however rolled stats can on occasion muck with a players intention for a character... for example, in one campaign I am playing a Goblin Sorcerer who believes herself to be a priestess of Sarenrae... before I even started rolling my stats I knew I wanted her to have a high Charisma and very low Int AND Wis... with point buy, I could dump both stats for the result easily, but with rolled stats I was at the mercy of pure random chance... our tables standard array option when used would have never worked for this character as well... as luck would have it I did manage to get two 9s which I immediately assigned to both Int and Wis... she has been the most enjoyable idiot I have ever played thus far.
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I have actually been playing in a game with a very similar ruling. At our table we use 4d6 drop lowest, with a 3 caveats...
1) reroll all 1’s.
2) reroll all 4 dice once if final result is less than 8 (basically if you rolled all 2s or a 3 and 3 2s)
3) If your rolls are too good, the DM may ask you to reroll (I rolled an 18, 3 17s, a 15, and a 13 for one character, had to reroll)It does unfortunately still leave the possibility for the dreaded average hero in a party of supermen as well as the possibility of completely unworkable stats for certain builds... but as is the nature of rolled stats. For our group though, this is alright... most of the players in our group don’t like point buy, all of our DMs hate point buy, and many of us actually enjoy the more random nature of rolled stats. Although for a few of our campaigns we have been using a stat array of 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 for simplicity sake and to even out scores... but arrays are a poor substitute for dice rolls... personally I find myself agonizing more over where to place what value with an array than with rolls.
If you get a 1 on the reroll do you reroll it again?
If you get a 1 on the reroll do you reroll it again?I have actually been playing in a game with a very similar ruling. At our table we use 4d6 drop lowest, with a 3 caveats...
1) reroll all 1’s.
2) reroll all 4 dice once if final result is less than 8 (basically if you rolled all 2s or a 3 and 3 2s)
3) If your rolls are too good, the DM may ask you to reroll (I rolled an 18, 3 17s, a 15, and a 13 for one character, had to reroll)It does unfortunately still leave the possibility for the dreaded average hero in a party of supermen as well as the possibility of completely unworkable stats for certain builds... but as is the nature of rolled stats. For our group though, this is alright... most of the players in our group don’t like point buy, all of our DMs hate point buy, and many of us actually enjoy the more random nature of rolled stats. Although for a few of our campaigns we have been using a stat array of 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 for simplicity sake and to even out scores... but arrays are a poor substitute for dice rolls... personally I find myself agonizing more over where to place what value with an array than with rolls.
Our rule is always reroll 1s for stats (and HP)... so yes, if your reroll was still a 1 roll it again until it is not a 1...
Make the players roll 4d6 drop the lowest and create a grid. Players can choose any row or column of their choice.
So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?
A method we will often use, take 18 cards (values 1 to 6), adding up to whatever power level the DM wants. We do about 72 total.
1- randomly divide cards between 6 stats, in order2- add up each stat
3- add 1 to a stat and 4 (max 18)to another stat
3.5(optional) switch any 2 stats (to allow a specific class/concept)
4- adjust for race
The 1 is to make an odd stat even.
The 4 can make a moderate stat good (or a poor stat moderate), if you really want to play a specific class/concept.
It is fair (everyone gets the same overall total).
It is organic (random distribution).
Here are some previous threads to look at;
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2na5r?PCs-using-different-ability-score-generat ion#30
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nj6v?How-do-you-roll-stats-for-new-characters# 8
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pj2l?Character-Generation-Methods#19
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pr5y?Suggestions-for-alternative-attribute-gen eration#10
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qaqa?roll-or-points-buy-which-is-better#38
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r46q&page=2?Imbalance-Via-Rolls#73
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ri4f&page=2?Generating-Stats-tricks-and-pr eferences#59
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kt3e&page=3?What-is-your-favorite-method-o f-generating#146
So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?
The only way you could ignore "dumpstating" is to force players to use the stats in the order they rolled them, but this dampens player agency and usually isn't appreciated.
Given a choice, players will always put their lowest score in the stat they least want. If the lowest score is a 5 or the lowest score is a 15, it doesn't really make a difference to that stat being a dump stat.
So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?
If you want to prevent dumping for optimization purposes, the simplest soltion is to remove the negative point buy values on stats below 10 (or maybe below 8 or 9, whatever you prefer). A 24 point buy under that rule produces about the same character as a regular 20 pount buy, only without that 7. On the other side, you could easily ban all stats above 16 (pre-racial).
Note that the method of character generation has absolutely no effect on the existence of dump stats - a dump stat is simply a stat the player doesn't care about, independent of the character generation method. The term is older than point buy.
The Wizard will have strength as the lowest stat, it doesn't matter if you use rolled stats or point buy. Even with your houserules, presuming my math is correct, 55% of all rolled arrays have at least one stat below 10.
I get the interest in some random element for character ctreation, but ability scores affect the game too much. Having to suffer through an entire campaign with a weak character just so the other player could get one minute of satisfying their gambling habits during character creation is just not fun. It also goes against the core concept of the game.
If you want some randomness, how about random background skills? Or random traits?
good luck playing a mad class.
This argument is backwards. It's point buy that can guarantee playable MAD character, while rolled stats can't. And as I've said, it's not just low stats across the board, it can be good but unfitting rolls. My first character had rolled stats of 18/17/13/9/8/8. You might say those are awesome stats, and for many charaters they are. Other players envied me. But try playing a (core) Monk with them!
Yes, low point buy seriously hurts MAD classes/builds, but you can easily fix that by not using low point buy (which is never, ever a good thign to use). Rolling stats has the same problem only without that easy fix.
Rolled stats can and will result in players being unable to play what they want to. How ist that a good system? Rolled stats can an will result in inter-player friction. How ist that a good system? Should we really pander to the people who're either hoping for an overpowered character, or who want to be able to look down at other players whose rolls were worse? because the way I see it, those are the people who want rolled stats (plus the nostalgia-addicts forever living in the past).
Whilst we're on the subject, don't roll for hit points either (I suggest half, round up, eg d8=5). Roll for monsters if you like, but don't inflict a permanent pointless difference on players. You might as well ask them to roll for how many skill points or spells they get.
Whilst we're on the subject, don't roll for hit points either (I suggest half, round up, eg d8=5). Roll for monsters if you like, but don't inflict a permanent pointless difference on players. You might as well ask them to roll for how many skill points or spells they get.
ehh... average hit points are just as bad as rolling poorly... it’s typically better to just allow rerolling 1s and 2s for HP... generally the average with a minimum of 3 on rolled HP will be reasonable for most. While averaged HP across the board will undoubtedly leave many fearing for their lives with every hit. I can say from experience with average HP how nerve wracking it can be... it genuinely feels like enemies damage is scaling faster than your HP after a while and if you have low con for any reason at all, then average HP is just punishing...
You can retrain hp if necessary. You can’t use retraining to raise stats though.
You can retrain hp if necessary. You can’t use retraining to raise stats though.
Which is one of the reasons why you should just go ahead and roll HP... you could roll good, thus removing the need to retrain, and if you roll bad you can boost your HP with a little downtime... but when your forced into average HP, you are practically required to spend downtime retraining to get to a more reasonable HP total for some classes. Worse is when the DM bans HP training because “we use average HP at this table”, or they run a campaign in such a fashion that downtime is practically nonexistent. I’d much rather take my chances with the dice than go through that hell.
Best random method for rolling HP (I use average) is that you reroll all your Hit Dice every level, including the one you just gained. If it's higher, you gain the difference; if it's lower, you add +1.
I've also seen this system replace natural healing.
Best random method for rolling HP (I use average) is that you reroll all your Hit Dice every level, including the one you just gained. If it's higher, you gain the difference; if it's lower, you add +1.
I've also seen this system replace natural healing.
Statistically speaking... that will result in simply adding +1 for half of your levels... as you will inevitably reach a point where the odds of rolling less than your current HP is higher than the odds of rolling higher.
Dungeon Dudes suggested their homebrew rule on HP over on YouTube. Basically, each time you roll a new hit die, if you roll higher than average, you use your roll, otherwise you take the average.
I would personally add rerolling 1s and 2s to the above.
But why bother rolling anyway? If you think that average-rounded-up is too little, why not go for 3/4? Or max-1? or max? or max+20? Why penalise someone for a roll on a single arbitrary feature if you're not going to do it for anything else?
Starting cash is the only other character feature that's still random in Core, and even that is a) very temporary, b) fairly insignificant and c) shown with its average if you don't want to go random.
Old-style games like C&S or Classic Traveller* made you roll for absolutely everything about your PC, but it's 2020 and we're past that now.
* in CT, you could die in chargen. There's an optional rule in Book 6 that you could be invalided out, but in Book 1 RAW, you're dead.
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There's a surprising number of new games which offer a bunch of tables for rolling stuff about your character during character generation. Sometimes a slightly unexpected result is easier to improvise off than an entirely planned character.
Hit point total isn't a good roleplaying prompt though.
But why bother rolling anyway? If you think that average-rounded-up is too little, why not go for 3/4? Or max-1? or max? or max+20? Why penalise someone for a roll on a single arbitrary feature if you're not going to do it for anything else?
Starting cash is the only other character feature that's still random in Core, and even that is a) very temporary, b) fairly insignificant and c) shown with its average if you don't want to go random.
Old-style games like C&S or Classic Traveller* made you roll for absolutely everything about your PC, but it's 2020 and we're past that now.
* in CT, you could die in chargen. There's an optional rule in Book 6 that you could be invalided out, but in Book 1 RAW, you're dead.
some tables actually enjoy the more random aspects of rolling, though they may want a little bit of security in their rolls as no one enjoys rolling 1s.
When someone is looking for improvements to a system with rolled stats, the answer is to work with them, not to tell them "why bother rolling, just give them X". There is a reason they wish to stick to rolled stats. You are free to speculate as to their reasons, but generally speaking any negative reasoning you may associate to it is probably completely inaccurate. Some of us just simply don't like the point buy system and arrays just make things too "samey"...
Reasons people may not like Point buy:
1) The point-buy options in the books severely limit options and encourage heavy dump stat usage. Most players will want atleast one 18, but no one wants to sacrifice all other stats for that 18. If you use one of the point buy values in the books then you will have to either dump a stat to 7 or deal with a lot of low stats just to get a single 18.
2) Point-buy is more rewarding to SAD classes than MAD classes. The more attributes your class needs, the higher point buy you require to remain viable.
3) Point-buy is a min-max paradise... some tables have issues with players min-maxing everything. Rolled stats actually help to even things out with such tables, while point buy will always give min-maxers an edge.
Reasons people don't like stat Arrays:
1) Lack of variation. This reason may seem petty to some, but it is a legitimate complaint. When everyone has the same stat values, it can very quickly result in everyone stepping on each others toes and anyone who's playing a niche roll character may feel ostracized. It's difficult to fulfil your niche roll in the party when half of the party is capable of accomplishing the same task just as effectively.
2) The static nature of Arrays makes some concepts difficult to pull off. You may want multiple low stats, or multiple high stats, but with an array, you will almost always have solid average stats.
Reasons people may enjoy rolled stats:
1) Randomness, for some it really is the pure random nature of rolled stats that is a thrill for them. Such individuals may approach a character concept by either rolling their stats first and then developing a concept with their rolled stats, or creating a concept and then adjusting a characters personality based on the stats. For example, a basic conceptually high strength fighter who ends up with a 14 str may be given an overly confident personality, the character believes themself to be the strongest in the world, but in reality is hardly stronger than the rest (or quite possibly weaker than them). This element of randomness can be used to help shape a character and make them feel more natural. The unexpected low stats can be turned into interesting character flaws and quirks. Similarly unexpected high stats can be twisted the same way, such as a frail looking Wizard with unexpectedly high Strength or Dexterity. It can also be quite thrilling when your rolled stats do line up perfectly with your character concept (like what happened with my Goblin Sorcerer).
So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?
Why I'd return today of all days after a few years away and see this thread - must be serendipity.
As far as being sick and tired of wizards with low Str or clerics with low Int...I think that people are usually drawn to things that suit them.
If I'm 6'8", 375lbs and great at football, I'm probably going to focus my efforts in athletics. If my reading level is way below average, I doubt I'll feel the urge to pursue a career as an editor.
Ability scores come first, then class levels. People tend to want to do what they're good at.
There are some exceptions of course, but if they're at the core of who you are and what you can do, it's frustrating and sad. Now, the rogue who turns into a combat medic or the fighter who's also an accomplished chef, those are different situations, and can be fun.
As far as being sick and tired of wizards with low Str or clerics with low Int...I think that people are usually drawn to things that suit them.
If I'm 6'8", 375lbs and great at football, I'm probably going to focus my efforts in athletics. If my reading level is way below average, I doubt I'll feel the urge to pursue a career as an editor.
Ability scores come first, then class levels. People tend to want to do what they're good at.
There are some exceptions of course, but if they're at the core of who you are and what you can do, it's frustrating and sad. Now, the rogue who turns into a combat medic or the fighter who's also an accomplished chef, those are different situations, and can be fun.
Beyond people wanting to do what they're good at, their stats literally reflect what they've done with themselves.
Someone who's spent a ton of time swinging heavy pieces of metal around and wearing armor is logically stronger than someone whose spent a decade sitting at a desk reading esoteric tomes. Someone who would have been hung for picking pockets had better be quicker and more nimble, or else able to talk their way out of trouble. Its not so much you have a low str and high int so be a wizard...its you have a low str and high int BECAUSE you spent your formative years doing wizardly things instead of fighterly things.
So does anyone have an ability generation system other than point buy/rolling that is more organic, less random and less "Here's your dumpstat"?Maybe search for a PF-compatible "lifepath" system?Hmmm . ..
EDIT 1
In looking up lifepath's (with little luck they mostly seem to be in the systems books they want you to buy) I've seen a few people advocating a 32/34 point buy option for a decent stat spread.I've also seen roll 4d6 (reroll 1's option) drop the lowest and then all the players take the best roll which would eliminate any "they have better stats than me". It'd also mean more stat arrays increasing the odds of good rolls which I'm sure is a drawback for some.
Lifepath, sounds like creating a newborn and rolling for events. Got into Hogwarts would mean a bonus on your spellcaster ability, and possibly a bonus to create, use, or identify magic devices.
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Out of curiosity how do you feel about the Glass cannon method of HP rolling.
1) You and DM roll then you take the better value.
2) If you roll the same you both reroll and you take the worse value?
I think next time I'll try go round the table with everyone rolling 4d6K3 then putting it in a 6x6 grid. Then each time you make a character for that game you can pick any line of 6 (row, column or diagonal). Not sure if it'll work better but it sounds interesting. Maybe with a reroll of 1's. I'll think on that.
Reasons people may not like Point buy:
1) The point-buy options in the books severely limit options
Wrong - with a proper point buy, you are guaranteed to be able to play almost any character concept. With rolled stats, there is a significant chance you'll be unable to to so.
Most players will want atleast one 18
Very beginner players, maybe. Experience players know not to pursue that 18 at all costs.
2) Point-buy is more rewarding to SAD classes than MAD classes. The more attributes your class needs, the higher point buy you require to remain viable.
Again, at least with PB, you are guaranteed to be able to play a MAD class, while with rolled stats, you likely can't do so. SAD classes usually want their one high stat, but MAD classes need their multiple good stats.
Rolled stats actually help to even things out with such tables
They're equally likely to do the exact opposite, namely making the min-max-guy's character even stronger in comparison. When it comes to compensating for poor stat rolls, the difference between a min-maxer and a regular player are greatest. Indeed, bad stat rolls are probably the strongest motivation to min-max there is.
If you want diverse builds, MAD classes, and unexperienced or non-competitive players able to produce viable character, rolled stats are your enemy, not your friend.
I think next time I'll try go round the table with everyone rolling 4d6K3 then putting it in a 6x6 grid. Then each time you make a character for that game you can pick any line of 6 (row, column or diagonal). Not sure if it'll work better but it sounds interesting. Maybe with a reroll of 1's. I'll think on that.
Unless I misunderstand something, that's basically randomly generated arrays. This should remove the problems with rolled stats (at least with high probability, some chance for certain builds being unplayable would remain). You'd lose out on the chance to balance MAD and SAD classes (often, the array(s) for SAD characters has a lower stat total), and you're likely to end up with multiple players chosing the same "row".
I've seen magic 6 method work well too. Basically you roll 6+2d6, You still get the 8-18 spread but it averages a little closer to 13 than 10/11
There’s another rolling method called dice pool. You get 24ish d6s to apply to apply to each stat(minimum 3d6) and choose the highest 3d6. So in your primary stat you might put 5d6(and drop the 2 lowest) and in your dump stat you put the minimum 3d6. In this way, you can try to dump a stat but it might be 18, but likewise you might stack your main stat and end up with a 3. I wasn’t a fan of this method but it does tend to get rid of dump stats while being more forgiving than usual strict roll for each stat individually.
30 D6, reroll all 1s, sound pretty good.